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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/5/2009 5:23:50 AM |
There is either a thirst for life or there isn't. No matter where you are. Not being able to rise above.. is just another form of death for some. We all die in our very individual ways. Contemplating death does not rob life of its significance but sometimes adds the impetus to live better in an "examined life". Life is not life unless the acceptance of death becomes a living presence. Don't wait to accept this fact, but at the same time do not let the fear of death seize you. Keep the strenous balance and enjoy your search for meaning.
Frankl uses life in the concentration camp as a metaphor for life in general. We tend to use our time fearfully pursuing the answers, one after the other in our lives believing the newest answer is going to resolve all of the issues, but it never does. If I am the biggest and strongest, then I will survive. If I am the cleverest and most cunning, then I will survive. If I have the most (to eat, to horde, to keep for myself) then I will survive. When in truth, none of us gets out of this world alive. When we come to understand this, we can actually start living a life with true meaning. Everything else is false hope and self delusion. Acceptance of the inevitability of death opens our eyes to truth. Fear shuts them. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/6/2009 10:55:21 PM | | I liked this book had to read it in school. I hated knowing how bad a person could be to another but love finding the beauty of a sunrise increased when he had nothing else to look toward. I have had times like that. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/6/2009 11:19:52 PM | I disagree with your assessment on the matter. There may not be any absolute moral value, but (and I think Frankel would agree) there are relations. It is at this point that life calls us to task. I think that is why he quotes Nietzsche in the book. To live is to go beyond good and evil and the morality that sets itself up before us. The essence of the book focuses not on happiness, success, or other such trivial matters, but roots life in its meaning... the meaning of the individual that lives. Instead of pursuing happiness to define the value of our life, he argues that it is better towards the point to build meaning. He writes "there was neither time nor desire to consider moral or ethical issues. Every man was controlled by one thought..." Another passage he writes "We knew that we had nothing to lose except our so ridiculously naked lives. When the showers started to run, we all tried very hard to make fun, both about ourselves and each other. After all real water did flow from the sprays."
Later in the book he states that we do not have a choice in the type of cross we carry, but in how we carry it. That is all. If life is suffering, if we must carry the cross, it is how we live that burden and struggle with its weight that matters. It matters for the simple reason that it is "I" that toils under its burden. Without giving away the philosophy I think I will mention one last use of his approach.
A man comes in and says that he has been depressed for the last two years . The reason is that his wife died and he can't seem to get out of this 'funk.' Frankel asks the man what it would be like if he had died before her and how she would feel. The man gets up and leaves because the meaning of his suffering is firmly subjected to the love that is gone. Why would he want her to experience what he has experienced?
Frankel's book has shed a light in the way I ought to orient myself. As long as I breath I will work towards building a satisfactory life in which I accept my burdens and freely take upon others.
In fact in the most important note, as an atheist, I believe he has found the essence of the Christian value, one that Nietzsche failed to grasp. It is simply this, to freely take upon yourself the suffering of others. When I have been wrong, it is I that offers forgiveness and freely take the punishment of their sins. It is why I am happy and can be called that guy that is always smiling. People are funny and yet I know that I will die. So I offer something. Meaning is the term and not morality or good and evil, but simply a justification. Remember it is not in what cross we bear but in how we bear it that matters. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/7/2009 1:29:31 AM |
I'll leave you with one final quote from Terry Pratchett's 'Guards Guards!' that really sums it up best....
Great quote. Pratchett is easily one of my favourite authors, and his City Watch books are my favourite of all the Discworld books. I realize that among the deep thinkers of the world Pratchett would just be considered a pop-author, but I sometimes think that a man like Freud, if he had more talent and imagination, would have been more content writing books that millions of people read for pure enjoyment.
I'm not sure that Pratchett's world view would closely resemble that of Vetinari. It seems in his later books we are given more characters who aspire towards morality and hopefulness. And.... towards the end of your excerpt we are given a hint that even the infallible Vetinari has his own doubts. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/17/2009 12:25:11 AM | Man they really need quote tags to be inserted into replies...anyway...
Frankl uses life in the concentration camp as a metaphor for life in general. We tend to use our time fearfully pursuing the answers, one after the other in our lives believing the newest answer is going to resolve all of the issues, but it never does. If I am the biggest and strongest, then I will survive. If I am the cleverest and most cunning, then I will survive. If I have the most (to eat, to horde, to keep for myself) then I will survive. When in truth, none of us gets out of this world alive. When we come to understand this, we can actually start living a life with true meaning. Everything else is false hope and self delusion. Acceptance of the inevitability of death opens our eyes to truth. Fear shuts them.
Not fearful, curious. And how can you say with any certainty that anything else is false hope and self-delusion? You don't know for a certainty anymore than I do that this is all there is. Acknowledging that we're all mortal and dealing with it is just as much a limitation as assuming that everything is pie-in-the-sky when we die. You need to be flexible. The way I see it, if there's nothing after we die then there's no worries. If there's something, we deal with it when we get there, much as we do going through life. Knowing that we're all going to die doesn't change a thing. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/17/2009 12:53:14 AM |
I disagree with your assessment on the matter. There may not be any absolute moral value, but (and I think Frankel would agree) there are relations. It is at this point that life calls us to task. I think that is why he quotes Nietzsche in the book. To live is to go beyond good and evil and the morality that sets itself up before us. The essence of the book focuses not on happiness, success, or other such trivial matters, but roots life in its meaning... the meaning of the individual that lives. Instead of pursuing happiness to define the value of our life, he argues that it is better towards the point to build meaning. He writes "there was neither time nor desire to consider moral or ethical issues. Every man was controlled by one thought..." Another passage he writes "We knew that we had nothing to lose except our so ridiculously naked lives. When the showers started to run, we all tried very hard to make fun, both about ourselves and each other. After all real water did flow from the sprays."
What is the meaning of meaning? Your arguement is one of semantics. You first presuppose that morality exists in some way, shape, or form, yet by observing the universe and nature here and now these things says unambiguously that there is no morality beyond what we create. Morality is a delusion. Just because we dis/agree with something doesn't make it right or wrong in any absolute sense, it just means we dis/agree with it. Further, Frankl's own arguement runs counter to what he's espousing in the first place. If we can't find and pursue happiness in this short life span we have, what's the point in pursuing anything? He was already surrounded with misery and a lack of hope, what point than in going forward if not for the potential that the days ahead would be better? Simply to exist?
When and how has basic existence ever been enough. The history of mankind itself says that isn't the case. It's the reason we invent, and strive for a better, easier, and more fufilling role for ourselves and our progeny - so they can have it better than we did. I don't know about you, but the best moments of my life have always been being surrounded by friends and family having good food, wine, and good times. John Lennon said it best, "Enjoying wasting time, isn't time wasted."
Later in the book he states that we do not have a choice in the type of cross we carry, but in how we carry it. That is all. If life is suffering, if we must carry the cross, it is how we live that burden and struggle with its weight that matters. It matters for the simple reason that it is "I" that toils under its burden. Without giving away the philosophy I think I will mention one last use of his approach.
Bullshit, you can always lay your cross down, even Jesus did. No man is a mountain. And eventually the mountain comes to Muhammed. And there is always a choice, both in the burden we carry and how we carry it. Some people take it upon themselves to suffer, while other stand up and say NO. This is why I left the Pratchett quote, evil exists not because people say yes, but because they don't say no. WWII for example...the jews still go on about how hard done by they were. Six million dead, why? Becaue they did not say no. The Russians said no and how many died? 20+ million? And do you ever hear them go on about how hard done by they were? They made a choice, same as the jews who went to the camps. This is why Israel's motto to this day is "Never Again". You think the jews of today would ever allow themselves to go down that path again? Not ****ing likely.
Frankel's book has shed a light in the way I ought to orient myself. As long as I breath I will work towards building a satisfactory life in which I accept my burdens and freely take upon others.
If it works for you, go with it. I think there are better ways to achieve meaning and happiness. A burden is only that which you allow it to be.
In fact in the most important note, as an atheist, I believe he has found the essence of the Christian value, one that Nietzsche failed to grasp. It is simply this, to freely take upon yourself the suffering of others. When I have been wrong, it is I that offers forgiveness and freely take the punishment of their sins. It is why I am happy and can be called that guy that is always smiling. People are funny and yet I know that I will die. So I offer something. Meaning is the term and not morality or good and evil, but simply a justification. Remember it is not in what cross we bear but in how we bear it that matters.
Why take on their suffering instead of alleviate them from it entirely? You seem to have this odd notion that we must all suffer and endure it in order to find meaning. Not so. We all must suffer, this much is true, but to how great degree and for how long is entirely up to the individual. Allowing people to suffer and respond to it is entirely reactive. Be proactive and end the suffering ASAP. Better to light a candle than curse the darkness as it were.
Most people find life a problem because they just don't get it. Once you understand where humanity's buttons and levers are life gets a lot less complex and you get a lot happier. Suffering is a choice, plain and simple. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/17/2009 1:11:21 AM |
Great quote. Pratchett is easily one of my favourite authors, and his City Watch books are my favourite of all the Discworld books. I realize that among the deep thinkers of the world Pratchett would just be considered a pop-author, but I sometimes think that a man like Freud, if he had more talent and imagination, would have been more content writing books that millions of people read for pure enjoyment.
Most serious sci-fi/fantasy geeks have always known that sci-fi/fantasy are morality tales by and large. I don't think any deep-thinker would discount Pratchett or those like him. They simply write these truisms in a more succinct and poetic manner. Pratchett has a very deep insight into the human condition that most people miss. His work is chockfull of these observations, it is up to the reader to find them.
I'm not sure that Pratchett's world view would closely resemble that of Vetinari. It seems in his later books we are given more characters who aspire towards morality and hopefulness. And.... towards the end of your excerpt we are given a hint that even the infallible Vetinari has his own doubts.
Not remotely. Vimes and Vetinari are moral counterpoints. Vimes represents the paragon of right and good - in a very flawed, very human way - whereas Vetinari is as Machivellian as they come. Vetinari isn't evil, he's a necessary mechanism that most people don't understand. And in not understanding, they fear him.
He wondered what it was like in the Patrician's mind. All cold and shiny, he thought, all blued steel and icicles and little wheels clicking along like a huge clock. The kind of mind that would carefully consider its own downfall and turn it to his advantage.
Let me leave you with two other geek quotes....
"There is always a reason. Whenever anything has been mucked up, whenever anything outrageous happens, there is a reason for it. You still have a mucked-up, outrageous situation on your hands, however, and explaining it does not alleviate it one bit. If someone does something really rotten, there is a reason for it. Learn it, if you care.... The fact is the thing that remains.... Acts and their consequences are the things by which our fellows judge us. Anything else, and all that you get is a cheap feeling of moral superiority by thinking how you would have done something nicer if it had been you."
-Corwin, The Hand of Oberon
by Roger Zelazny
If you've never read Zelazny you're missing out. He is my favourite authour bar none. All his stuff us great, but the Amber series is probably the best fiction ever written.
And from Weiss and Hickman geekdom, this really says it best about 'to thine own self be true'....
Raistlin's gaze went to Steel. "Your sword is need elsewhere, son of Brightblade. Permit us to leave in peace." Steel could hear the truth of that statement for himself. The sounds of battle had penetrated to the depths of the tower. Raistlin strode forward, black robes whispering across the stone floor. Steel eyed him warily, drew his sword.
"I recognize that blade," Raistlin said calmly. "Your father's, isn't it? I never liked your father much. All that business about knightly honour, nobility. He made such a show of it, flaunted it, threw it in my face." Steel said nothing, but his hand gripped the sword hilt more tightly, until the knuckles were white.
Raistlin drew closer still.
"And then I discovered something very interesting about your father. He lied to us. Sturm Brightblade was no more a knight than I was. He was made a knight only shortly before his death. All that time, he wore the armor, carried the sword... and it was all a lie."
Raistlin shrugged. "And you know what? I liked him better after I discovered that."
"Because you supposed that he had sunk to your level," Steel said hoarsely. Raistlin's smile was twisted, bitter. "You would think that, wouldn't you, Brightblade? But, no, that's not the reason."
Raistlin moved closer, so close that Steel could feel the chill of the mage's frail body, could hear the breath rattle in the lungs, could feel the soft touch of black velvet.
"Your father lied to every person except one - himself. In his heart Sturm was a knight. He had better claim to that false title than many who held it for truth. Sturm Brightblade obeyed laws that no one enforced. He lived by a noble code in which no one else believed. He swore an oath that no one heard. Only himself... and his God. No one would have held him to that oath, to the Measure. He did that himself. He knew himself."
"Who are you, Steel Brightblade?" Raistlin's golden, hourglass eyes flickered. "Do you know?"
Dragonlance: Dragons of a Summer Flame | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/18/2009 9:04:02 PM | | Suffering is not a chosen. Suffering is something that is given just as living freely and understanding that life is not complex. Life is COMPLEX. Life is indeed more complex than choosing to believe that life is indeed simple and just so easy, if only we comply. Give me a break. How very indicative of a stance that has been chosen that disregards complexities beyond the stand that was chosen. This argument ignores some real, hard realities and yet at the same time (ironically) has kudos for those who can still laugh after an experience like the second world war and the holocaust. Life has room for suffering and needs to. Otherwise it is just a pleasant joke. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/21/2009 10:48:24 PM | How is it that suffering is not a choice exactly? Life isn't complex at all. Drink, eat, breed. That's what life comes down to in a nutshell. Anything else is self-applied. If you want to piss and moan about how unfair life is, that's a choice. People you love die? Again, you choose to suffer the same as you choose to move it past it. Imagine you're having a really shitty day, just ass-wiping bad. Your siginifigant other left you, you got fired, your car broke down, you got evicted, and you think, how could it get much worse? And there you are, all morose, sullen and suffering. Than you find a winning lottery ticket worth 10 million bucks and your perspective changes instantly.
It's a choice. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/22/2009 7:06:29 AM | ^^^That's insane. Finding a winning lottery ticket is not a choice.
You seem to be a guy who thinks "The Secret" is profound wisdom. Frankl wrote this about his experiences in the Nazi concentration camps. Yet you write, "How is it that suffering is not a choice exactly? Life isn't complex at all. Drink, eat, breed. That's what life comes down to in a nutshell. Anything else is self-applied."
If there's one thing that's clear - suffering is part of the human condition. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/24/2009 1:10:07 AM |
That's insane. Finding a winning lottery ticket is not a choice.
You missed what I was saying entirely. None of the other things, or most everything else, that happens to you is a choice. How you choose to respond is. Your perspective can turn on a dime, so to speak. You have all kinds of misery thrown at you, than something amazing happens and you go from suffering to happiness in an instant. How is that? A choice in your perspective.
Why was Frankl in the concentration camps in the first place? He made a choice to go. This is why I stated earlier the Russians made a choice to tell the nazis to go **** themselves and 20 million of them died in the process. He could have fought and died, joined the resistance, started a rebellion, etc, etc, etc, He had a ton of options - as the rest of them did - but they went like cattle to the slaughter. They chose not to fight and suffer instead. Regardless, suffering is a choice because it is a perspective. You choose to take it upon yourself or not. Do mass-murderers suffer from a guilty conscience? No. Because they believe what they're doing is the right thing. Again, perspective.
Remember, "most men lead lives of quiet desperation", and that's a choice. You always have a choice. It may not be the choice you want, but you still have one. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 10/24/2009 8:28:20 PM | Fighting the Nazis was not a choice offered. Sorry, but that's just not the way it works in the real world. Yes, Frankl himself did choose not to flee when offered the choice. But his work is not about "Damn, should have left when I could." It's about the search for meaning and how his experiences and observations of those around him shaped his thoughts.
It doesn't matter whether it's Jews in Europe or Tutsis in Rwanda; the horrors visited on some aren't a matter of choice. Do you really think the people facing starvation in Ethiopia have the option of hopping on a plane to America? | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 11/14/2009 8:23:18 PM | | I think Frankl was a good writer but with due respect, I think Wittgenstein was a far greater thinker. Wittgenstein did do a lot of important work in the philosophy of mathematics and language but he also grappled with many of the same questions which Frankl and the continental philosophers of the time tried to deal with, such as the meaning of life and death, though Wittgenstein does so in a very pithy way usually. I think though there is more profundity in Wittgenstein's thought and more rigorous application of logic. It should not also be forgotten Wittgenstein devoted some care and attention to problems in the philosophy of religion, and was influenced by Augustine and Kierkegaard in his work. There are quite a few books which look at Wittgenstein's explorations in ethics, existential issues and his explorations in the philosophy of religion. | |
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| Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning
Posted: 11/18/2009 11:48:08 PM |
Fighting the Nazis was not a choice offered. Sorry, but that's just not the way it works in the real world. Yes, Frankl himself did choose not to flee when offered the choice. But his work is not about "Damn, should have left when I could." It's about the search for meaning and how his experiences and observations of those around him shaped his thoughts.
Why did he not have a choice? Did some deity step in and prevent it? Last time I checked there were 10's of 1000's of resistance fighters, many who died fighting the nazis. He had a choice, he chose not to. We always have choices. The choices and their consequences may not be palatable but they remain choices nonetheless. And the meaning we find is - in part at least - a result of out choices.
It doesn't matter whether it's Jews in Europe or Tutsis in Rwanda; the horrors visited on some aren't a matter of choice. Do you really think the people facing starvation in Ethiopia have the option of hopping on a plane to America?
No, but how they respond to those horrors is a choice. And again, any meaning they find is a result of the choices they make. People in Ethiopia have choices too. Their situation is one more political than geographical. If they're not willing to live and die for a better world for their own why should I care? Maybe you think the revolutions in America, Russia, China, India, Ireland, et al. just happened. That no one made a choice to stand up and say "No more." So all those people that fought, and bled, and died were just wasting their time?
....and..may you never have to come to a crucial choice, lecutter.
I have, several times in my life. Which is why I say that just passively laying back and saying 'Que sera sera' is complete and utter bullshit.
Real men do not 'find' their meaning...they make it.
That's a rather myopic and dumb way of looking at it. Hrm, what has meaning in my life? I dunno, I guess I'll go create something meaningful. If you've never found anything meaningful in your life than you've lived a very sheltered life. | |
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