| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 7:24:17 AM | Early on in this thread Paul K uses a Urban myth to point out that the Government can't be trusted to run a bussiness. The myth that many conservatives use to prove the Government is unable to manage your tax dollars. Myth is that the government ran a thriving Nevada brothel into the ground due to inept bussiness practises.
The truth is this. The Mustang Ranch a Nevada Brothel was closed by the IRS due to several million in unreported income. The Property was seized so yes they owned the Brothel but they never ran the bussiness. There was a massive public uproar at that time about the Federal Government was operating an immoral bussiness. Even if they wanted to run the bussiness an outraged public would have seen that heads would roll. The bussiness was closed The IRS foreclosed on the property and sought a buyer for the brothel. There is more to this story and the corrupt bussiness man that originally owned The Mustang Ranch.
This Myth is just more miss leading propaganda by the Conservative movement to prove their point. take it for what its worth. | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 177 | |
| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 8:29:51 AM | It's interesting how people throw terms around when discussing politics and Rights.
Huey Pierce Long, Jr was a U.S. senator and governor of Louisiana
--Long was accused by his opponents of dictatorial tendencies for his near-total control of the state government.
-Long created the Share Our Wealth program - with the motto "Every Man a King,"
proposing new wealth redistribution measures in the form of a net asset tax on corporations
- To stimulate the economy, Long advocated federal spending on public works,
public education, old-age pensions and other social programs.
-Long made speeches denouncing the large banking houses of Morgan and Rockefeller centered in New York
All this sounds eerily familiar to the current times of 2009 . | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 9:55:55 AM | I have never heard of a civil Flag please explain.
Paul K You seem to think That anyone from another country is living in some kind of delusion and do not have the freedoms that The average US citizen has. You also assert that they just do not know what they are missing. I live in a resort town one that gets legal seasonal workers from a number of countries Dominated by Australia ad New Zealanders. Because it is a very active winter sports center a great number of people are always coming in from Sandinavia and Northern Europe. I also have friends and clients that do a great deal of bussiness around the World. Your idea that they do not know what they are missing is 100% dead wrong. Most admire for many of her qualities. Yet most do not understand this obsessive fear that is being fostered over health care reform. There is a vast difference between a Communist system and a Democratic system with socialized institutions. The best rated health Care system in the world is the French system They spend 1/2 of what the US spends and get better results. A good friend of mine has a Son That a couple of years ago was in a horrible accident in The French Alps. He was out of College mid 20's thought he was invisible as many young men do. So no Health insurance . After a week in a French hospital. two surgeries to repair a very bad broken leg He had a bill of under $200.00 courtesy of a fine running government sponsored health care system.
All The other western democratic industrialized nations have some form of socialized medicine, except the US. Now what is interesting is this the vast majority of the citizens of those countries are very happy with the health care they get. Just about everyone from that I have talked to from Europe ,Australia, New Zealand are baffled by our system. The US is now not even in the top 5% of the nations providing quality health care. Now lets look a a family with a child that needs life time care. If you loss your job and take another you may not be able to get a new health care policy from your employer. You could also reach the life time cap on your insurance.
Your only option may be to sell your home go into massive debt on your medical bill. then file Bankruptcy so your family will qualify for medicaid. Great system isn't it. You need to get out more meet some people from other countries you might get a better understanding of the world at large. | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:47:52 AM |
I have never heard of a civil Flag please explain.
It was mostly discontinued after the civil war, when the civil law of the Constitution was "papered over" by Federal military "Admiralty" law. It saw little use after that. You might say that in general, the federal US has been under the jurisdiction of (unconstitutional) military law since the civil war. My guess is it was around that time that the Federal district (district of Columbia) incorporated as a business that could "do business" in all of the states, hence placing all the sovereign states under their corporate jurisdiction, with admiralty statutes replacing the common law.
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Two-Flags.html | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 12:55:43 PM | Hey Artz
Just so you know, so you might understand, I was born in a communist country, and most of my family managed to escape it in the late '50's and early '60's. Please don't presume to lecture me on the differences between communism and socialism, as you obviously haven't spent any appreciable time in a communist run country living as the "natives", that is the people who live there all their lives. If you had, and had to make a living and live as they do, you would have a completely different attitude towards communism. Going to visit a communist country with AMERICAN DOLLARS will give you no idea whatsoever about what living under such a system really is like.
My question to you is if the American system is so bad, then why do so many people of wealth come here for what they consider the BEST TREATMENT? Do they go to cuba? Actually, when their supreme leader fell ill, they IMPORTED doctors........ And I thought they had the BEST of everything. Right.
Just as can bring up any number of anecdotal cases to prove your point, so can I. It proves nothing. The proof in the pudding is where are people DYING to imigrate to? Is it COMMUNIST cuba? Is it COMMUNIST cuba? Gee, why not if that system is such a wonderful thing, all are so content and happy? Sometimes even though the facts are right in front of your eyes, some don't see.
Paul K | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 1:12:15 PM |
why do so many people of wealth come here for what they consider the BEST TREATMENT?
I don't know about that Paul; I noticed the US didn't even make the list of the world's ten best hospitals.
http://www.justsharethis.com/top-10-best-hospitals-in-the-world/
To top that, it seems that of the $6700/annum spent by the average American on healthcare, only $6 goes to research, which means that state-of-the-art care in the US can only decline over time, compared to countries that allocate a larger percentage of their healthcare dollars to research. | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 2:22:31 PM | you may have grown up in communist country Yet have a warped sense about a country like Sweden, Finland, Canada, Norway, Germany France and England. They are not communist! What they do have is social programs that benefit the majority of the population not just the wealthy. Wow a Government that aids the people! hat helps people. Not just Business interest. If the rich come the USA for health care so what! They also go to Brazil For plastic surgery, to South Africa for Heart Surgery. Switzerland and a number of other countries that offer the best Dr and the most luxury you can buy! The average American is still going to go bankrupt if you happen to get along term illness That your insurance no longer will pay for. Insurance companies don't give a fart about you. They have main responsibility that is to The share holders.
Republicans were successful in getting crippling Unions. They helped send American jobs over seas. They even gave tax breaks to those that relocated production over seas. wages in this country have been stagnant for more then 20 years The only people that were making money were the money movers. All they did was move money from one hand to the other. They used convoluted economic models ad formulas to to show how it would work then took their big slice of the pie. They pushed money producing nothing in return. all those good conservative were right in line marching side by side with The money changers. Now get this the Conservatives thought it was a good idea to let them "self regulate. " The Markets will take care of themselves. Wow that really worked out for us didn't it? Now Rush and Fox broadcasting blame Acorn and the left for the down fall. What The capitalist who were making Billions are blameless? The poor Billionaires are so miss understood.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Rupert Murdock wants you and your buddies to focus on non issues. Like gun control. and Health care
Look how the ammo producers manipulated that market. Democrat gets elected They start spreading rumors about massive taxation on Ammo. Using Rush, Hennity, and Beck and the rest of the lies to scare the crap out their blind faith legends of followers. Classic fear tactics. No taxes and guess what they raised their prices and made a killing off that fear. But keep focusing on the Boogie man He's out to get you. Look another imaginary boogie man! Acorn. Gee they are reason for the economic melt down? Oh Really. Who do you think has the cash to pay all those lobbyist in Washington? Do you? I sure don't . What social economic group benefited the most in the last 8 years? The top 5% ! They now control more of this nations wealth then ever in our history. Twenty years ago the average CEO made about 30 times the earning of the average worker. Now it is about 400 times the average worker. With Tax plans and being paid in the form of bonuses plus stock options with tax shelters they pay lesser tax percentage then you or me. Look at Halliburton, They took the American people for Billions the moved their world headquarters off shore. Great American patriots so concerned for the country. But you still get your shorts in bunch over the imaginary boogieman.
So keep listening to the lies and keep spreading them. your little story on The Nevada whorehouse a total fabrication look it up yourself. Stop lying! | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 2:28:56 PM | Hey dukky
I looked at the list you referred to, and they all have something in common, and that is that IF you can afford to go there, you will get very good treatment.
In the USA, if a person arrives at a hospital by ambualnce, they cannot be turned away..... Thats the legality of it. Try that in thailand, hong kong or mexico city.
I have very good health care insurance that costs me about $2880/year, with a dedcutable of $3K. I am in one of the highest risk categories, and even with the dedcutible fully excersized, I am not at the figure you quoted............ I call BS on that number.
The next time you need health care, why do you bother going to second rate American hospitals, get on a plane and access the best, you know where it is.
Paul K | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:12:48 PM |
The next time you need health care, why do you bother going to second rate American hospitals, get on a plane and access the best, you know where it is.
If I had to, I would... Fortunately, I'm in pretty good health (no thanks to the Canadian government)
As far as your your insurance policy goes, will you still have the coverage if you leave your job? Being in a high risk category, would you be able to get the same coverage at the same rate at your next job? What would happen if you needed say, neurosurgery during a period of unemployment?
As far as American health care costs go, I only know what I read, and admit I didn't look into the figure I quoted. I hope this graph helps (it would appear that some of your health care costs ARE paid out of the public purse). It seems the $6700/capita I quoted was from 2006...It's gone up since then I'm sure.
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/universal.htm#stat | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:29:09 PM | Hey dukky
AS far as me losing my job, I am self employed.... it is up to ME whether I make it or not....... what a concept. As far as if I need extrordinary care, I already told you....... if I arrive at a hospital by ambulance, I cannot be turned away.................
Hey artz
Please show me where I said the norway, sweden and the rest you mentioned were communist. That is something you must have fabricated, because I never said that......
Can we say straw man?
As far as the recent downturn in the US economy, there is a lot of blame to go around, and it seems like you think that only the right is responsible for it. Try again. The real estate collapse was due to banks having to make loans that they would never make otherwise, to those who don't qualify, with no down payment. This has already been analyzed to death, I guess you missed it. Why did they make these loans? Because they were forced by the govt.......... Both sides are complicit. When bankers are left to their own means, they usually will not make loans that have an extremely low chance of geting paid. They were forced to, simple as that.
Paul K | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:48:30 PM |
f I arrive at a hospital by ambulance, I cannot be turned away...
That's true anywhere, isn't it?
The real estate collapse was due to banks having to make loans that they would never make otherwise, to those who don't qualify, with no down payment.
The intent was that the Fed WANTED Fanny Mae & Freddie Mac to start the low interest loans, so that their buddies could put together the derivative packages that got sold worldwide, with the full knowledge that they would eventually fail (the Fed would make sure of that, knowing that inevitable losses based on those same risky mortgages going south in a recession would cause the collapse), then when the economy collapsed, they could go in and buy up the smaller banks through outfits like Goldman Sachs and thus move US banking closer to a monopoly, as competing banks could now be bought for pennies on the dollar.
A similar engineered panic (and resulting bank buyout for pennies on the dollar) was used to usher in the Fed in the first place. JP Morgan staged it. | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:56:17 PM | Paul You purposely blur the term communism with socialism. In your post you offten exchange those terms two very different systems. Nice try at fudging
By the way you can get great care in in Hong Kong. just show up a hold over of The British Empire. By The way we were Talking about western Industrialized country. Not Singapore of Malaysia. Way to go on an attempt to blur The the line there Paul. You might get care when brought to a hospital But you will still have to pay one way or the other. You might be self employed with an income that can cover the cost of insurance but many can't cover that cost. My stay in a hospital was only four days The bill for what my insurance did not cover was still $10,000 dollars. Have a heart attack with poor quality insurance and you could be out $100,000 or more. plus a long fight with the company just to get them to pay what they said they would pay.
i know someone that is self employed had heath insurance though is wife's work. They split she is suppose to keep him covered He is paying her $150.00 a month as his portion of the insurance. Guess what she dropped him from the policy and pocketed the $150. He has a Heart attack had to have bypass surgery and now owns the hospital close to $400,000 . Now he is paying what he can and can not get insurance because he is a risk. Our current system is failing us all of us. it is hurting the middle class more then anyone else. The number one reason for Bankruptcy in this country is medical bills.
I worked in Real Estate and the Mortgage bussiness. Nobody can force a lender to make a loan. Mortgage Bankers do not get paid unless that are making loans. They do not have to provide FHA loans. They offer privet mortgage insurance . They produced financial models that were very convoluted. All based on the assumption the Real Estate would continue to grow. Some under qualified guy buys a home he really can't afford and they surmise that in a couple of years that $100,000 home will be worth $150,000 in their thinking they can not loss. If the borrower defaults they still can recoup their investment and make a profit. Multiple that by Billions bundle it up with a 10,000 other loans some iffy some good and sell that as an investment tool.
Every one takes a commission everyone makes money do about a 1Billion a week and that little 1/8 % adds up. those bankers loved the high risk people They couldn't wait to make them a loan. Mortgage brokers would tell people how to lie on the documents . How invented the No Doc Loans? That is not a Government program.
Go on keep spreading the lies The government is to blame. The Bankers were forced! BS The Government under Bush turned a blind eye to w hat was happening. unsophisticated people were lead into taking a risk on the believe that they would move up the economic ladder. I read one case of a 28 year old man with a $20,000 dollar a year income buying 14 homes. when the bubble busted he lost ever home. The lenders were drunk with greed making big fat commissions and passing on bad investments as safe with high ratings.
Yeah blame Government and the little guy That conservative BS doesn't wash.
How do you tell when Rush in lying? His lips are moving that's how. | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/13/2009 5:22:48 PM | Hey artz
I do know the difference very well. All of these discussions are a moot point to begin with, because there are those with no knowledge or experience who will see to it that we in the USA will end up a third rate socialist shithole as well. Just a matter of time, because that is the way it is heading. Hope you like it when you get it.
Paul K | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 189 | |
| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 7:36:44 AM | For those that might not think America is everything they want it to be
may I suggest http://www.escapeartist.com/
There are some distinct advantages about living in other countries than the USA. | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:59:33 AM | Hey HO2
you wrote:
"http://www.escapeartist.com/"
A great site, but you posted the connection to the site in the wrong place. This should be posted at all of the places that people sneak into the US at. THAT would be doing them a favor.
Paul K
PS Just out of curiousity, are you going to take your own advice and move? There is one thing that you don't mention, and that is that if you have to live as the "natives", meaning the people who have always lived there, or do you get to bring your own American money? | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 9:51:55 AM | Paul what I said was you proposedly interchange communist and socialist. As if one automatically leads to the other or that they are essentially the same. Once again you avoid the real crux of the argument.
Now answer these questions!
1) Do employers always offer good health care packages? Or any health insurance at all.
2)If someone is low income working hard to earn a living. How can they afford a good policy that would cost as much as 1/2 or more of their net take home pay? Keep in mind there is rent to pay for food, buy clothing, gas to get to and from work.
3) What about families with a child that needs long term care. The Insurance caps out at some point. What do they do? There are thousands of families here in the USA that owe Millions due to caring for a child with a sever long term Illness.
4) Someone laid off from work and now with a new job can't get a policy due to past health issues?
5) Yes many hospitals have to take you in. But you still get billed you still may own $ 200,000 or more if you are having a heart attack. How does he pay this back on a $45,000 a year gross income?
Medicaid only kikes in if you are below the poverty line. You can be forced into bankruptcy by large medical bills.
Stop dodging these questions. | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 10:03:26 AM | Hey artzy..
Dodging..... Moi?? Hardly. These questions are not new, and have all been answered, however you may not like the answer, since they don't all contain a fix by a large centralized government controlled entity.............
First an aside, yes, socialism is the stepping stone to communism. I am surprised you don't know that.
Answers to above questions:
1. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. That is betweent the employer and the employee.
2. ONE MORE TIME. This is between the employer and the emplyee.......... none of your business. Why do you have this need to control another persons life?????
3. AGAIN, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS............................. GET IT?
4. This is getting tiresome..... NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
5. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. It is between the two parties.
The fact that you have this need to FIX or CONTROL situations that are not your business is scary................................................
Paul K | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 11:53:30 AM | Wow you really don't havea acer nice That was your poorest Dodge yet poor poor Paul can't come up with a reply. At least the old line conservatives of the 60's like Willem F Buckley could debate a point.
Now all of the above questions are my concern. They effect family and friends, people I care about. They also effect your wallet and my wallet. We pay a big hidden cost for all the under insured and the uninsured. The system now isn't working. It is killing small bussiness and big bussiness a like. Hospitals and Dr are forced into writing off debts. Lawyers for Hospitals will tell people they have to file for bankruptcy so the Hospital can at least recoup some money. Your Insurance premiums are going up. You had better read the fine print on that policy. A sudden stroke could Financially wipe you out. So see it is my bussiness and your bussiness. Go on play the Ostrich.
I'll be sure to alert the troops that Norway, Sweden, Germany. and Canada are on the road to communism. all those people being duped by all that evil socialized programs. How could they all be so content with their lives. | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 12:31:09 PM | Hey Artzy
Perhaps you should ask all of the people how content they are with the tax rates they pay...........................
Paul K
PS Thanks for your sudden concern if I have a sudden stroke, but I have allowed for that possibility and have PLANNED AHEAD. Was it easy? No. Was it fun? No. Did it cost? Yes. But you seem to have a worst case scenario view of life. Life really can be planned for in advance, and doesn't need a central planning comission to take care of me from birth to death.
Paul K | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 195 | |
| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 1:18:18 PM | It's your Right to pay taxes and expect something....no ?
Usually people scream ""I'm a taxpayer god dammit"" -""You can't do this...."""
The sad fact is they'll do whatever they want, whenever they want--if its legal or not.
Check the official record on the George W Bush years, what was legal, constitutional, etc.
Rights get trampled on and in my opinion should be abolished completely.
Either it's a law or it isn't - black or white - open or closed
There is no need for Rights.  | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 1:43:24 PM | Hey HO2
I did check the record, and you are right, G W Bush is the ONLY president who stepped out of bounds constitutionally!!! Amazing. I even found in the Consititution where it specifically emumerated powers to obama to fire CEO's of private companies, and install his hand picked person.
Who knew??!!!
Paul K | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 2:53:24 PM | Yeap Swedes pay up to 50% in taxes Guess what they for the most part are very citizens. They get a lot of bang for their buck. I Guess you failed to read that surveys showing the most contented people in the world are Canadian, Swedes , Germans and other countries that have social programs Wow and guess what they still create wealth and are amoung the most productive countries in The World. Also Europeans travel to the US in far greater unbers then we do to Europe. After visiting they still like it back home. They still love their country and are happy with their elected Goverment. I'm sure Rush or Beck will find a few people in those countries that are unhappy with the tax rate they pay.
I think it was over 80% of Swedes polled liked their government and their standard of living. Canada has an even higher percentage.
I wonder why the founder of Ikea did not move his company offshore to avoid taxes and those socialist laws? Maybe he is proud to be a Swede?
Now-are the corporate heads of US companies that move World Headquarters off shore proud Americans? Do they really love this country?
So how can Obama fire the CEO of GM They needed the Bailout money that was part of the deal. He was doing a piss poor job ruined the company. In order to save millions of jobs The Government was forced into bailing them out.
A lot of Banks when The loan money a failing company want a change in Leadership. I Know this because a very good departed friend was a wizard at rebuilding failing corporation. Often once the Banks looked at his record of success The were more then willing to make the needed loans You would **** if Obama did not make a change in leadership saying Obama is letting an incompetent remain in control.
Just admit that no matter what Our President does you will hate it. He tells kids to stay in school Obama is brain washing our Kids!!!!! hes a Nazi
longer school Year he is out to ruin The summer vacation industry putting more on unemployment!!!!! That is almost a direct quote from Glen Beck. | |
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HO2
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Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 199 | |
| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 3:14:36 PM | The Swedish even have IKEA with all that scandinavian modern style !
Here in the states they are few and far between....... | |
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| Philosophical argument of Rights
Posted: 10/14/2009 3:43:29 PM | I went to IKEA, and wonder who besides someone who is just starting out, and needs furniture that can best be described as "beginner sets" would buy anything from them......
Pointing to IKEA as an icon is really missing the target.
Paul K | |
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