| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/12/2005 11:01:05 AM | We've been there before. We didn't decay. I'm tired of hearing the world cry for help and then when the US does help they throw a temper tantrum because they don't get their way.
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/12/2005 11:28:15 AM | | Isolationism was an absolutly ridiculous, self serving policy. Its a good thing there are nations throughout the world, other than the US, that possess foreign policies that arnt completely self-serving. The isolationism as conducted by the United States during the early parts of WW1 and WW2 is something your entire nation should bear shame for, how could you possible have such a stance of excess patriotism given the fact the countless lives were lost in europe as a result of your nations cowerdice. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/12/2005 11:31:32 AM | | Ah....bad US. Damed if you do and damed if you don't. I wish the rest of the world would make up it's mind. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/12/2005 11:32:10 AM |
Isolationism was an absolutly ridiculous, self serving policy
Self defeating statement or what!!??
"Self serving" is in no means "ridiculous". | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/12/2005 3:01:04 PM | SeanC
Maybe the European powers shouldn't have pacified Hitler for years encouraging him to invade their countries. Maybe they should have enforced the WWI peace accords and restrictions on Germany's military. Maybe they shouldn't have been so arrogant as to think fixed fortifications would save them, that war does not evolve and present new challenges.
To speak of isolationism then as if it were today, with the instant global communications and worldwide economic interdependency. To say we rush into military action on one hand and decry our reluctance on the other. Every nation on Earth acts primarily in their own interests, and to imply that the former colonial powers have been historically benevolent is to ignore centuries of exploitation.
America certainly didn't win either WWI or WWII by themselves, but the Allies would not have won without us either. Twice this century Europe has gone up in flames, and we had to cross the ocean to stop it, millions of our boys volunteering to fight and die for freedom FOR OTHERS as well as their own. Then we rebuilt a devastated Germany (and Japan) and assisted all of Europe in stopping the Warsaw Pact nations for another 40 years.
We have made mistakes, Rwanda comes to mind, as does Central America. But the freedom existing in the world today owes much to America and her allies, perhaps everything.
MajMike | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/12/2005 3:24:24 PM | | I'm sorry, but comming from a nation that entered the WW2 within days of the invasion of poland, a nation whose soldiers were dieing for the sake of others long before pearl harbor, a nation that never required draft because compassion and selflessness filled its ranks, I find isolationism barbaric and disgusting. If isolationism hadnt been practiced many, many lives could have been saved, and a few less families, including my own, would have had to bury there kin. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/13/2005 6:23:17 PM | Poland was defending itself, and poorly at that. Isolationism is not bad, just not realistic today, we are all too interconnected. Things were much different then, maybe when you get a little older and better versed on warfare you will begin to understand the process.
We all lost kin in that war, don't feel so special, the Russians lost 20 million dead. You sure are a self-righteous youngster, condemning a whole nation as cowards because they didn't make decisions that you think they should have. Maybe with a little perspective and a lot more military and political history you will realize how much you (and I) owe to those "cowards", although I wouldn't say that to their face if I were you.
You don't like America, then stay in Canada, but I wouldn't call their vets 'cowards' either.
MajMike | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/13/2005 6:50:01 PM | Alright first off, its not that i dont like the United States, i love americans as individuals, and the ties between are country are incredibly deep, its more of an annoyance at a family member whose actions you dont approve of. I deal with americans constantly and they are overwhelming good people (exept mabye Steve Moore but thats another matter entirely).
as to having a little more perspective, mabye, as to a lot more military and poltical history, i am not ignorant of military and political history, except for mabye the battles in the pacific during WW2, i have done a great deal of learning both on my own time, and in school, and would say i have a far better than average understanding of our poltical history.
condeming the nation you're right is a bit far, its a touchy subject based on differences in ideology. In my mind those who volunteered during WW2 did one of the most selfless things in recent world history, something that should be celebrated. Isolationism is the opposite of that, isolationism puts ones own well being above the well being of others, something i absolutly oppose.
No veteren should be called a coward however, and for that i was wrong and humbly apologize.
Chastised
Sean | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 1:08:02 AM | After reading some of these postings I have come to appreciate the many interesting perspectives to an issue which can definately be seen in opposing ways. While isolationism can create a degree of problems due to either being excluded from a group or by choice, it also has its merits in allowing issues to be resolved by conflicting parties (i.e. India has on several occasions asked the US to stay out of their affairs with Pakistan in regards to Kashmir). This is an internal problem created during the partition of India in 1947 just slightly before the end of British rule. Nevertheless, America's decision to stay out of the Great War (2) before being attacked at Pearl Harbour is hardly ever seen favorably by many people. It was their choice, rightly or wrongly they had made it. Today, ironically, many people state that American foreign policy brings them in line with what is called/known as international policing. So I guess depending on your perspective and definately on the situation along with the motive of the nation(s) involved the international arena is always very messy and never clear cut.
In regards to whether China should be allowed to join the interanational coalition, my stance would be this, regardless of their human rights issues, I believe China and any other nation that wants to join the World coalition should be given that right just like everyone else. The reason for me to say this is because isolation or being excluded of being recognized as part of the world will not do any good. And as one of you have so rightly pointed out the world is becoming more connected and interdependent. I think that it is time that every world leader takes the initiative to open up dialogue with the rest of the world so that we can communicate our needs and desires freely and openly with as few barriers as possible. Hopefully this will lead to a mutual respect between nations where some of the world's tougher issues such as human rights, global poverty, Aids, terrorism etc. can be tackled, not by a handful of nations but by the world. It's about time that everyone takes charge and action for things that effect all of us.
I am also a very strong supporter of friendly global competition in regards to athletics and the human spirit to strive for excellence. China will soon be hosting an Olympics which I think is absolutely great! For those of you who have not heard the slogan or who have it goes something like this One world, one dream! Simple but extremely powerful. This speaks volumes for showing how we can be united in a common endeavor of sports. The more that people are involved through open dialogue, education, good sportsmanship etc., there is always that much more exchange of respecting the various cultures of all the nations throughout the world. And when people come together and respect each other, I will almost bet that there will be less strife than what we have now.
Finally, the biggest advantage of having a strong and healthy coalition is that as many nation's voices should be heard as possible. And while everyone will not agree, there will be plenty of opportunities for the democratic process to take place whereby decisions will not be unilateral or bilateral in nature, such as the decision to invade Iraq, which by the way can also be seen in shades of grey. As for my opinion on it, it is extremely mixed and would take some time to explain it, so I will leave it out for now. I have enjoyed reading many of the comments that were made on this very important issue. I hope that what I have contributed to this thread can add another point of view that is meaningful to this discussion as well as perhaps raise more questions that need to be answered.
With Best Regards,
Webcrawler. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 2:57:41 AM | hey, guess what, China will not dominate the Global scene.
They will need Capital, and the source of Capital isn't Shanghai. The $$$ comes from New York, London, Zurich, Berlin, and Paris.
China is a tyranny, a country of 300million industrialised workers surrounded by 800million peasants and lowly farmers.
They are hardly a billion-strong consumer force, more like 100 million immmediate consumers, with a burgeoning wealthy class. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 9:17:42 AM | Before China will ever become a super power it would have to embrace democracy. It's people must be able to elect governments of their choice.
If China abolishes forced labour, as well as respects peoples human rights then it may be on the road to becoming a so-called "superpower". | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 9:21:58 AM | ^^^^^^^
With the amount of money and military power China holds; they will become a superpower whenever they want in whatever fashion they want. There is no law governing reality which states 'a nation must be democratic before it becomes a superpower'. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 9:42:22 AM | Hi OCEANLOVER, Guess you haven't heard of the trade imbalance between the uS and China. Currently they hold so many US green backs that they have been accused of currency manipulation. The US economy is driven by consumption and chains like Wal-Mart are addicted to Chinese goods.
If you have any doubt about China's growing clout, just look at the conflict in Iraq (to control oil) and Afganistan (access to Asian oil and natural gas). But if thats not enough I would suggest the Brookings Institute web site for more detail. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 10:11:24 AM | | The Chinese economy and the American are closely intertwined. Should something happen to one or the other it would undoubtedly trigger a world wide depression. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 11:00:11 AM | With the amount of money and military power China holds; they will become a superpower whenever they want in whatever fashion they want. There is no law governing reality which states 'a nation must be democratic before it becomes a superpower'.
Good for them then. Next time the world needs something ask China.
Hi OCEANLOVER, Guess you haven't heard of the trade imbalance between the uS and China. Currently they hold so many US green backs that they have been accused of currency manipulation. The US economy is driven by consumption and chains like Wal-Mart are addicted to Chinese goods.
Cite. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 2:15:14 PM | frosty: I have many sources, as I have been reading about China for about 10 years, and I have worked there as a contractor. Also, much of this is common knowledge, and printed in textbooks and mass media as well.
yes, China does possess about a third of all US Bonds, foreign debt, and most are mature and cashable, about 1 trillion $US, which would collapse the 3 trillion/year $US US economy.
But, remember, if they cash them: their value would be constantly dropping as the US Dollar lost it's value, due to a lack of availability in currency markets. For example,Oil would have to be traded in Euros, or some replacement, because the US dollar would disappear, as the US treasury sucked up all liquid assets to pay the bonds.
So , China would be left with a trillion dollars of bonds, that are really worth a tiny fraction of today's dollar value. It would be a losing deal for China! They paid a huge amount for bonds worth close to nothing in comparison, meanwhile the US economy would recover. And free of the foreign debt, so it would just skyrocket!
Remember that the Chinese investment helped the US economy to grow to the point where recovery is fast, meanwhile the Chinese made huge sacrifices to acquire those bonds. The US got the better of that deal, no question. So noone is going to make any stupid moves, everything is business as usual.
It's a Mexican standoff
Oh yeah, it costs about 25% more to do business in China due to graft...not very good. | |
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 2:31:18 PM | Before China will ever become a super power it would have to embrace democracy. It's people must be able to elect governments of their choice
They already are a superpower Fox.
The Chinese economy and the American are closely intertwined. Should something happen to one or the other it would undoubtedly trigger a world wide depression.
Thus..."balance" is in place.
Good for them then. Next time the world needs something ask China
Good stuff; as longa s the US does not run to get involved fearing that they are being cheated or snuck on in the world scene. NOT being ever involved is not going to be an easy addiction to kick.
frosty: I have many sources
Care to share at all?
about 1 trillion $US, which would collapse the 3 trillion/year $US US economy.
Reminds me of stories I have heard of people throwing away suitcases full of less than useless German currencies not so long ago.
So , China would be left with a trillion dollars of bonds, that are really worth a tiny fraction of today's dollar value. It would be a losing deal for China! They paid a huge amount for bonds worth close to nothing in comparison, meanwhile the US economy would recover. And free of the foreign debt, so it would just skyrocket!
*scratches head* You're an "economist contractor" then?
So noone is going to make any stupid moves, everything is business as usual.
Agreed! All of the stupid moves have been made already.;)
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| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 2:38:38 PM |
A superpower has political, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, financial, and military dominance over vast regions of the world.
China? no. | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 50 | |
| Should China be allowed to join G8
Posted: 7/14/2005 11:47:36 PM | So interesting to read so many comments
I have an import company
The country that provides me with the best goods, at the best prices, and so far with NO Bribery required is usually China [I cannot say that that about ANY other Asian country and most Eastern European ones]
Their trade surplus for the first 6 months of this year is 60 Billion dollars
There are over 4 million $US millionaires in China, and this number grows on a daily basis
Their economy and Standards of Living are growing so rapidly it is very hard to keep up with
The US wants the Chinese RMB/Dollar revalued
The Chinese know the effect this would have on their exports so are refusing
I just travelled through USA [L.A Baltimore Atlanta Daytona Savannah New York]
followed by Canada [Toronto Vancouver] Hong Kong Macau Taiwan China [Shenzhen Guanzhou Nanjing]
Now back in Australia
I kept a tally of the times I was asked for money etc by panhandlers/beggars in the various areas
Vancouver and New York were the worst by a long way
Next was Taipei followed by Hong Kong
The happiest people were in China
There is a bit of discussion here about a "Communist country like China"
China has developed a strategy that is working
Most people are not affected by the Communist party policies
Most people love the new freedoms they have, and their ability to trade openly with other countries
Yes, they still have what we call problems there, but they are addressing these quickly
It is not that long since Communism was rigidly enforced, but that is NOT the case today
[Yes, someone will no doubt go searching now to prove me wrong. And they will be able to find some isolated incidents, but nothing like they would have found even five years ago]
The Communist Party has embraced so many facets of Western business and lifestyle that True Communism can Never exist there again
There is a Marketplace of 2 billion people there, with a negative population growth, and a very rapidly increasing standard of living.
The possibilities of selling into this market are endless
Workers conditions there are not up to western standards, but most workers have the opportunities to get ahead. There is no comparison with workers conditions there, compared to parts of India/Bangladesh and parts of Eastern Europe
China is now a major player.
This has been done very quickly
There have been mistakes made
No other country has ever developed so rapidly and successfully
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