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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:03:41 PM |
he was copying me, so I spanked one, he would go over and hit them.
I don't have to deal with all the screaming and yelling and fighting that ensues for a spanking.
Thank you for pointing these. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 7:35:43 AM | Do you mean you paid cash up front for the house and it's paid for? Or do you mean you took out a mortgage? Me personally, I think houses are overpriced and owning a home is overrated. After all, there are property taxes to pay and if you think you 'own' your home, try not paying your property taxes.
Aww. So it would be so much better to throw your money away on rent right? Let someone else get rich off of you. You build equity in a house. Mine is personally a very large saving account for me. I've never pulled any money out of it and right now, even in this economy, I could bank around $40,000 if I sold it. How much will you get when you leave your rental?
I did have to stop spanking my kids for the time being though, because I have a 1 yr old that likes to hit everything he can, no matter who or what it is
This is a BIG reason why I don't believe in spankings. How does it teach the child anything but to hit? And that it is ok to hit? | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:01:29 AM |
This is a BIG reason why I don't believe in spankings. How does it teach the child anything but to hit? And that it is ok to hit?
I have no idea where people get this idea... that because kids get a spanking it will teach them to hit? I was raised being spanked, as were my siblings, my cousins and many of my childhood friends. I've never seen any of them hit another kid or grow up hitting because thier parents spanked them.
As for the "teaching" part of spanking, please read back a few pages and you'll see many posts on how it doesn't necessarily teach anything and how time outs and taking away the Wii doesn't teach anything either. Talking to your kids is the only teaching tool... and I'm not saying just when they are bad, but talking to them about right and wrong ALL the time, that's what's going to teach your child.
The few times I spanked my child, I did so after the time outs didn't work. After telling them that if they continued that behaviour they were going to be spanked. The lesson learned there is that mommy is damn serious, when she says stop, she means stop. I don't p*ssy foot around. I'm not one of those parents that continues to threaten all the while the child knowing full well thier parent is going to do nothing to stop them. Those are the kids that rule their parents and have no respect for others. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:15:25 AM | You know, something just occurred to me.
I guess I should not find it surprising that so many people find spanking to be so terrible..... in the single parent forum!
I am curious as to whether or not the ratio of people for and against would be different if this were posted in a different forum.
You know, it's one of the more common stereotypes about single mothers that they tend to be far too lenient on their kids and act as a "friend" rather than a "parent". I think their could be some truth to this. I am single now and my dog is my buddy. In the absense of a relationship, I could definitely see a lonely mother treating her child differently than she would if she were married with another adult to talk to in the home.
Just a thought. Don't crucify me for it.
-8sf8 | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:18:41 AM | Talking to your kids is the only teaching tool... and I'm not saying just when they are bad, but talking to them about right and wrong ALL the time, that's what's going to teach your child.
I agree with this statement. If you are doing this effectively I see no reason to why you would need to follow up with a spanking.
I could definitely see a lonely mother treating her child differently than she would if she were married with another adult to talk to in the home.
I have always had another adult with me and still do not condone spanking. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:22:38 AM | ^^^ Talking at me when I was a kid was completely pointless. It's why I didn't respect my teachers and I didn't respect my mom after I got big enough that she could not hurt me anymore.
All children are totally different. Some can be taught by talking and logic.
Some like to kill things and set fire to things, and generally be disagreeable little a-holes like my brother and all of my little friends growing up.
Words fall on deaf ears unless it's backed up by force with those kids.
-8sf8 | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:29:50 AM |
Some like to kill things and set fire to things, and generally be disagreeable little a-holes like my brother and all of my little friends growing up.
I don't think even spanking will help a child like this.
I know my sister spanks...and her kids will look at her and laugh. Not that they are nearly as bad as you described your brother but spankings do nothing for their behavior. My daughter, who gets talked to, will quickly turn around, apologize and change her behavior. Granted, she is only just about 3 and I have many MANY years for her to prove me wrong. lol. So ..ugh...I have to agree with you. All children are different. And people change. i will be the first to admit that if I end up with #2 being a little heathen I will probably change my mind about spankings. And I really don't care what other people do with their kids. To each their own. Just right now..at this moment, spanking is not for me. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:33:25 AM | ^^^ You are very, very lucky to have your daughter then.
If I ever have children, I sincerely hope to get agreeable little people who recognize logic and act sanely.
However, especially if I have biological children and did not adopt.... that would probably not happen.
Just remembering how all the little boys acted I grew up with makes me shudder. Especially in our very, very sue-happy society now, I really don't want to be saddled with a child who likes to destroy things and be a malicious little a-hole.
This is part of my reluctance to consider having children of my own. I really don't want to be the father of Denace the Menace.
-8sf8 | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:40:32 AM |
I agree with this statement. If you are doing this effectively I see no reason to why you would need to follow up with a spanking.
So then I'm assuming by your statement that after you talk to your child that you've never had to give your kid a time out or take something away from them, or ground them, or whatever? I chose to spank at the times I felt it needed it, you chose not too... meh, to each thier own. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 12:12:56 PM | 8sf8, I do believe you have a point about some single parents being too lenient on their children by becoming their friends. It is not the sole rhealm of single parents though....the kids I've met (via my son) who are little menaces ... some were from two parent intact families who believed in spare the rod spoil the child philosophy and the others were from single mother households where Mom wasn't really around that much (no supervision/no direction). I remember catching one kid smashing pumpkins in our neighbourhood the day after Hallowe'en. I called up his mother and told her what he did...he denied it...she believed him over an adult. To each his own but that little terror was never allowed to come to my home again and my son stopped being his friend.
I find this statement of yours quite interesting....in light of the discussion we are having...
Talking at me when I was a kid was completely pointless. It's why I didn't respect my teachers and I didn't respect my mom after I got big enough that she could not hurt me anymore.
Talking at children, aka lecturing, is totally ineffective IMO. Engaging your child in a discussion does work though.
I am curious that you admit you had no respect for your mother when you got big enough that she couldn't hurt you anymore. Did you ever have respect for her? I may be reading too much into it but I assume that your mother did hurt you before you got too big.....could that be why you didn't show respect for authority figures?
I find it interesting that you chose a military career which requires respect for those in authority....a blind respect nonetheless.
Some like to kill things and set fire to things, and generally be disagreeable little a-holes like my brother and all of my little friends growing up.
There are some mental illnesses present at birth and yes, some children are difficult to manage. Interesting though that spanking aren't part of a psychologist's treatment program with these types of children. Behaviour modification strategies they use do not include any physical aggression at all..... In some extreme cases, drugs are used but I am not a big believer in the drugging of children. I think it happens far too often and far too easily these days. Why do you think your brother, you and all your little friends were like that? Growing up, I knew of no kids who behaved the way you describe ... I find it odd. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 2:21:43 PM |
I could definitely see a lonely mother treating her child differently than she would if she were married with another adult to talk to in the home.
In my experience this is particularly true where there is only one child. The result of that prediliction is that children of single mothers expect to be treated as adults - and assume greater liberties. Kids sleep in mom's bed until age ten or later, can't stand to sleep alone, can't have the door closed, expect mom to include them in planning and strategy sessions, etc. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:31:23 PM |
In my experience this is particularly true where there is only one child. The result of that prediliction is that children of single mothers expect to be treated as adults - and assume greater liberties. Kids sleep in mom's bed until age ten or later, can't stand to sleep alone, can't have the door closed, expect mom to include them in planning and strategy sessions, etc.
First of all, my son has had his own room since he was born, i teach him to pick up after himself, to say please and thank you, and i'm working on the yes ma'am no sir stuff now, but he isn't even 2 yrs old.
Alot of single mothers that I know, want their kids to be responsible and to not think that they can't do anything because they have an absent parent. I am my son's mother and father regardless. When he needs a little father figure in his life, my dad is to step in. I don't need a man to raise my son. My son is the total opposite of what you just stated. He closes the door everytime he is in a room, he sleeps by himself, always has. Truthfully, i really don't think you know what you are talking about. Be a single parent and then talk to me. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:37:49 PM |
No, the study does not say that at all. Here is the original post again:
I never said it actually said that. I don't need to read the original post again. I simply stated that the study was on people of that state....people are different in other states simply on how they are raised.
For example: Most of the people from Texas knows their manners due to the old fashioned nature of the people there.
People from say California (not saying all) are not even remotely like that...they don't care, they are loud and very disrespectful. Some are like that in New York.
Notice i did say most and not saying all. So when you get upset by looking at this post....remember, i didn't mention YOU. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/13/2009 9:49:48 AM |
I am curious that you admit you had no respect for your mother when you got big enough that she couldn't hurt you anymore. Did you ever have respect for her? I may be reading too much into it but I assume that your mother did hurt you before you got too big.....could that be why you didn't show respect for authority figures?
I find it interesting that you chose a military career which requires respect for those in authority....a blind respect nonetheless.
I actually posted on this a while back. So you are saying that a lack of respect for his mom led him into a profession where respect and loyalty are expected?
I don't want every kid in america to be raised the same way. The freedoms and differences we have make us different. I WANT people like SF8 defending me, i DON'T want some kid that was tought that "hitting is never right" defending me abroad.
SOMETIMES people NEED to get hit. There's no if's and's or but's about it. What happened after hitler "negotiated" a peace treaty with poland? SOME times we need to smack a biatch. For that reason WE NEED people that understand that violence is sometimes not only justified, but REQUIRED.
Who do you want defending you when the enemy is at the gate, SF8 or Bob Ross talking about happy trees and positive reinforcement. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/13/2009 12:07:45 PM |
No, the study does not say that at all. Here is the original post again: I never said it actually said that. I don't need to read the original post again. I simply stated that the study was on people of that state....people are different in other states simply on how they are raised. For example: Most of the people from Texas knows their manners due to the old fashioned nature of the people there. People from say California (not saying all) are not even remotely like that...they don't care, they are loud and very disrespectful. Some are like that in New York. Notice i did say most and not saying all. So when you get upset by looking at this post....remember, i didn't mention YOU
"I simply stated that the study was on people of that state."
But you are wrong. The study did NOT use only children from "that state". The study was representative of the entire country.
Straus, Murray A. and Mallie J. Paschall. 2009. "Corporal punishment by mothers and development of children's cognitive ability: A Longitudinal study of two Nationally representative age cohorts." Journal of Aggression, Maltreatment, and Trauma. Also to be reprinted in Murray A. Straus, Emily Douglas & Rose Anne Medeiros, The primordial violence: Corporal punishment by parents, cognitive development, and crime, Walnut Creek, CA, AltaMira Press. (CP51) | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:21:41 PM |
My son is not even 2 yrs old yet, and he already knows his ABCs, in the process of potty training, knows what animal is what, knows the difference between his clothing. It's amazing, so if you honestly think that spanking can lower your IQ, your crazy What on [n] Gods Green Earthwould you spank a two year old for?
Im not into spanking but if a huge offense is commited might bust a can of whoop ass open, but TWO? Did he read barney too loud? Cry? Poop his diaper? Thats a joke right? Hopefully? Im sure he is a bright boy but bright kids can be emotionally damaged as well as dumb ones.
I bought my first house 2 months ago and i'm only 24. Apparently i've done somehing right, don't you think? Alot of people can't get houses until later on in life or when they get married. I did it all on my own (I sound so great! haha jk) Thats fabulous for you, but ummm, wht does home owenership and hitting a 2 year old have to do with one another? if you own your house you should beat your toddler? | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:40:32 PM |
My son is not even 2 yrs old yet, and he already knows his ABCs, in the process of potty training, knows what animal is what, knows the difference between his clothing. It's amazing, so if you honestly think that spanking can lower your IQ, your crazy
It is possible that you are misunderstanding what the study means when it says spanking lowers iqs. I can tell by your example that you think if the study had been true, that because you spank your child he would not be smart enough to do the following:
"he already knows his ABCs, in the process of potty training, knows what animal is what, knows the difference between his clothing. It's amazing"
That is not what the study is saying at all. The study is not saying that spanking makes your child dumber, and makes your child so much less intelligent that he would not be able to do any of those things at age 2. So your entire post where you tried to refute the study in the original post is negated.
Others have misunderstood the study in a similar way:
I was spanked my whole life, ive been through five years at the university, and my GPA is a 3.98.. what are your childrens IQ after college-- the ones who never spanked their kids? Where in the study does it say anything about a child who was spanked not being able to attend a University and have a grade point average of 3.98? Oh that's right, no where. So how is this relevant? And you aren't the first person to make a statement like this. I'd also like to know how the rest of them think it is relevant.
It's revelant because the study is saying that those who were spanked have a lower IQ... meaning not very smart. A grade point average of 3.98, IMO, means your not stupid, even a little bit. He was spanked and is smart. I'd say it's pretty revelant to the OP.
Where in the study does the author say that the spanked children had lower iq's to such an extent that the children were "not very smart."? I can tell you where...no where. No where in the study does the research show that spanked children were "not very smart." It only said this:
The IQ scores of children ages two to four who were spanked were 5 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.
The IQ scores of children ages five to nine who were spanked were 2.8 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:50:09 PM | Thank you, sweetness!
Sad to say, my prior participation in this thread has shown me that no study, nothing others say, no statistics, no experts will change the mind of those who believe that it is their right to hit their child. I have yet to see anyone show HOW it teaches a child, particularly a young child, or to admit that, when you hit a young child it is serves no purpose other than to make you feel better, and in control. Sadly, many parents seem to need this & to feel vindicated simply because they are able to do so to a smaller, somewhat defenseless human being. I am fairly certain that no child has learned their alphabet nor their colors by being spanked.
I agree that talking, and for the very young child especially, modeling is how children learn, despite whatever method you think you employ to teach them. The difference between taking away a privilege & spanking, in addition to explaining what they did wrong & why it is wrong, is that those things teach actual consequences (thus "let the punishment fit the crime. As I have said before, there is no other context except the parent/child relationship in which physical action against another is an acceptable consequence in society.
Spanking is about humiliation & being controlled. It doesn't FEEL any different to a child than to an abused spouse., and it doesn't teach a thing about acceptable behavior in a civilized society. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 8:25:45 AM |
...no study, nothing others say, no statistics, no experts will change the mind of those who believe that it is their right to hit their child.
Perhaps the people you speak of are rational, intelligent and compassionate people who simply are not persuaded by the studies and opinions which have been offered. Or don't you consider that possible?
I have yet to see anyone show HOW it teaches a child...
I don't think any posters have asserted that spanking accelerates growth of grey matter or raises IQ.
The difference between taking away a privilege & spanking... is that those things teach actual consequences (thus "let the punishment fit the crime.
I assume you mean to say that taking away a privilege teaches an 'actual consequence'. Which privilege do you suggest I take away from my two year old when he acts inappropriately? | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 10:07:37 AM |
Which privilege do you suggest I take away from my two year old when he acts inappropriately? Ah, easy question. None.
A 2 year old does not act inappropriately. They act/react in the way that their extremely immature cognitive and emotional development alongside a very limited 'language' to express their feelings permits them to.
Then adults come along, try to impose a completely inappropriate and irrelavant intellectual framework on this behaviour and try to punish it because it is "inappropriate".
Pointless exercise. Punishing a 2yr old for behaviour that is entirely appropriate for their developmental stage because in the greater scheme of things it is undesirable is waste of time and will not produce long lasting more desirable behaviour.
What will? Working with the child, at the appropriate developmental level to try and work out what they are reacting to (will always be a perceived unmet need on their part; hard part is figuring out what the need is), responding to that and at the same time acknowledging you understand what/why they acted the way they did, but that does not make it ok. And helping them, within their own social/emotional/intellectual developmental limitations to learn 'better' more appropriate ways to express themselves and deal with what overwhelms them.
Punitive punishment is about control. And more often than not it is a pretty ineffective tool of control in the long term. It is about the parent feeling satisfied. It does not "teach" the child anything in terms of developing an innate sense of 'right' and 'wrong'. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 12:12:26 PM | It's funny...
We need a license to drive.
We need a license to hunt and/or fish (if the land is not our property).
We need a license to practice medicine and law.
We need a license to get married.
Why don't we need a license to have and raise children? That baffles me! | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 1:00:15 PM | Pointless exercise.
Lol. Ain't that the truth.
Punishing a 2yr old for behaviour that is entirely appropriate for their developmental stage because in the greater scheme of things it is undesirable is waste of time and will not produce long lasting more desirable behaviour.
I keep telling my wife that! My conduct is appropriate for my developmental stage and that attempts to modify my behavior are a waste of time...
Seriously - back to the two year old - how do you let them know that what they did is not ok?
Punitive punishment is about control. I think some would disagree with that, but even if true, "control" would seem to be more positive than negative when talking about undeveloped intellects and incompetents. And more often than not it is a pretty ineffective tool of control in the long term. I guess that's part of the thread discussion. Some people would seem to disagree. Why don't we need a license to have and raise children? Why not a license to engage in relationships of any kind? Think of all the harmful behavior that could be regulated! I'm sure we could form an administrative body of interested poffers to create standards for interpersonal conduct. Edit: Sorry. My quoter isn't not acting appropriately - it makes for a messy read. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 8:25:46 PM |
Seriously - back to the two year old - how do you let them know that what they did is not ok?
You explain in a simplified yet rich vocabulary, being careful not to over simplify it,
You name the concrete effect his behavior has on you, and you name how it makes you feel,
You show and demonstrate the desired behavior by modeling it,
You concentrate your efforts on teaching what to do rather than what NOT to do,
You educate yourself about what children can do at what age, and what their cognitive capacity are depending on their developmental stages,
For behaviors that cannot be changed quickly (such as impulsiveness), you change the environment so that it becomes child-proof and safe,
You learn patience, knowing that proper learning takes repetitions,
You repeat often, and especially when all is well and the behavior isn't going wrong (prevention works better than reaction),
You teach new behaviors little by little, making sure it's never a too big chunk at a time and making sure one step is well learned before jumping to the next,
You teach your kids words for feelings and emotions, and you model the use of these words throughout your own life...
Need I add more? | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 8:51:06 PM | I have to agree with Conscious. But it is not something that is easy to do. It takes a lot of patience. I think that a lot of parents today spank because it seems like a quick solution to a problem that really does take a long time to overcome.
I do have to admit that spanking does have it's place, but too many people use it too often. I was spanked as a child. My children have been spanked. But you have to make sure the punishment fits the crime and I would recommend that spanking be the last resort and never done in anger. If you think that you are spanking your child in anger, then go with another punishment.
Just my 2 cents. | |
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