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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 9:05:12 PM | [the spanking i used to recieve taught me discipline and later on when i was a teenager, self respect. I work my arse off for eveything i have and everything i will have and one of the reasons of that was due to my parents via verbal communication and spanking... people say "no you can't spank your child" well.. considering it has been going on for several thousand years and we have built a mass civilisation that is quite advanced.. i wouldn't say it is a bad thing.. they need to know their boundaries and saying "stop that" etc isn't enough..because they won't stop it lol.]
or perhaps the reason you turned out so well was because of other factors, not the fact you were spanked? Makes you think doesn't it? | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 9:11:14 PM | My mom was a school teacher for years and one of the things she truly believes in is that children will learn in spite of the teacher......
Too often, the defense for spanking is "I was spanked and I turned out OK"....that is a weak defense because OK is a relative term and without knowing how they might have turned out without that form of discipline....nobody can say they are better/worse off because of the spanking administered by their parents. The other main defense I hear is a fear that without spanking they cannot raise anything but unruly, undisciplined children.
However...there is 40 years of research on child development that demonstrates children who are not spanked does not equate to unruly, undisciplined child....
It is fear that prevents people from choosing alternative parenting techniques? | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 9:16:38 PM | I am thankful for people like conscioussoul & meplustwo!
[Perhaps the people you speak of are rational, intelligent and compassionate people who simply are not persuaded by the studies and opinions which have been offered. Or don't you consider that possible?]
Perhaps not.... you don't have to be persuaded by studies, but you surely lack compassion if you look into the eyes of a two year old who has just had a belt taken to them for writing on the wall with crayons, after being handed a box of them. How in the world could one expect a two year old to know that those crayons are ONLY to be used on paper, if YOU DON'T TELL (and supervise) THEM?!?!
I am not, and I have made it perfectly clear, should you choose to read this entire thread, judging all those who choose to "spank" as a means of causing a particularly unacceptable behavior to immediately cease . My words are directed at those who advocate physical means, particularly against the very young, as a means of teaching children appropriate behavior, and defend it by stating that their children are "smart". Can it be proven that those smart kids would not be moreso had they not been hit? Not likely, but either way, it doesn't negate the responsibility of parents to educate themselves about parenting, and it certainly doesn't prove that raising your hand to a child TEACHES anything at all. That is my point, and those are the people to whom I speak. Should you deem it compassionate, rational & intelligent to employ an "azz whoopin' to a toddler, I feel sorry for you, but not as sorry as I feel for your offspring.
[I don't think any posters have asserted that spanking accelerates growth of grey matter or raises IQ]
There are several who have participated in this thread who have stated that they absolutely believe that hitting a child is discipline, teaches proper behavior, and builds character (not in those words, perhaps, but, frankly, I believe that it is likely that they lack the capacity to recognize the definition of such). In a discussion regarding intelligence and learning, what else is pertinent? Truth is, do any of us believe that being under stress doesn't hamper the "growth of grey matter"? Do you believe that the threat of being assaulted (yes, assaulted) for an unknown offense (ex. writing on the wall with the crayons you were handed by the attacker?, who claims to love you?!) doesn't put you under stress, when you are TWO?!?! Those people do exist, and I have read their posts here, and it is them I address, not the parent who may occasionally feel it necessary to slap their eight year for the offense of disrespect.
[I assume you mean to say that taking away a privilege teaches an 'actual consequence'. Which privilege do you suggest I take away from my two year old when he acts inappropriately? ]
I think that a two year doesn't conceptualize "privilege"; their world is very small. It revolves around them, and wanting to please YOU, to the extent that you show them the reward for doing so (at that age, a hug & a kiss for good behavior is a good way for them to learn. The consequence of reward is probably more of a teaching tool at that age than the removal of a privilege. If they speak disrespectfully, a lesson in speaking appropriately, via reading a book on the subject of respect (there are many children's books related to the subject matter) or speaking to them (again, age appropriate), might suffice. Not all infractions require punishment; some require lessons, which result in teaching, I would think. These things do , however, require effort & loss of free time by the parent, which far too many parents are not willing to sacrifice, or are willing to dismiss. As far as I am concerned this is the problem, and where physical means of "teaching"/punishment becomes a problem. It is the lazy way out, self serving, far too convenient, and as far from intelligent & compassionate as one can get.
I apologize if I come on strong, and I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but I do have strong feelings on the subject & I object vehemently to some of the things I have read and seen. Parenting a child is the greatest responsibility one can take on, and I see far too many selfish people excusing irresponsible, lazy behavior & defending their ignorance of child rearing by stating that the experts know nothing. They say they believe that they are "disciplining" their children, all the while doing nothing but being selfish. The result is the kids that MY kids deal with in our public schools on a daily basis. A sad commentary on society, if you ask me. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/15/2009 9:20:24 PM | ok, i did not read every single reply to this post, but i feel the need to put my 2 cents in.
My opinion is that spanking does not teach a child that what they did is wrong. It teaches the kid to fear being hurt for doing something, and teaches them that it is ok to hit other people to solve problems. That is just logical. How many stories and statistics do we hear about abuse issues, and it never fails that the person doing the abusing was abused as a child. Now, what i'm not saying here is that all kids who are spanked means they were abused.
Kids go through stages of development physically and mentally. What might be obviously wrong to an adult (drawing on walls) may not necessarily equate to wrong to a young child unless they have been taught it is wrong. Someone earlier on here mentioned that they form the punishment around what was done wrong. Now THAT is teaching the child that what they did was wrong, and that THIS is what we do instead. All spanking does is give the parent control over the child and is a "quick fix". How many times do we find ourselves spanking our children over and over for the same thing? (temper tantrum, acting out in public)
There is documentation of students being seriously injured, and in some cases dieing, from a routine paddling from their teacher/principal. I was paddled in school for something i didn't do, and still to this day I have issues because of it. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/16/2009 7:50:04 AM |
I was paddled in school for something i didn't do, and still to this day I have issues because of it.
That would go a long way towards explaining your position.
Need I add more?
That’s all good ConsciousSoul. These are all great long-term teaching suggestions. Maybe we should apply those same techniques when working with adults. Tension, aggression and paternalism are probably poor teaching methods regardless of age or venue.
I would still like to hear how the non-spanking lobby proposes a toddler’s harmful behaviors towards himself or others should be managed without imposing some form of retributive punishment. How many times do you say, “no please, that’s not appropriate” while he hits his infant cousin with a truck? And after you have taken all his toys away (teaching him theft, control and sensory deprivation) and he sticks his finger in his cousin’s eye, what non-retributive natural consequence is warranted then?
Those people do exist, and I have read their posts here, and it is them I address, not the parent who may occasionally feel it necessary to slap their eight year for the offense of disrespect.
Does that mean that an occasional slap is effective - and warranted when “necessary”?
Not all infractions require punishment; some require lessons...
So SOME infraction do require punishment? That seems to run contrary to Conscious Soul’s position. How does a parent know which is which?
It is fear that prevents people from choosing alternative parenting techniques?
I suspect the counterpoint would be:” Is it fear of what other might think or emotional weakness that prevents people from doing what needs to be done to keep their kids in line?” | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/16/2009 8:38:23 AM |
That’s all good ConsciousSoul. These are all great long-term teaching suggestions. Maybe we should apply those same techniques when working with adults. Tension, aggression and paternalism are probably poor teaching methods regardless of age or venue.
Yes, this is very true even for adults, although of course adults have the cognitive capacity to understand you the first time it is asked. For adults, so far as it is asked in a respectful manner, you can state your needs and they mostly will be respected. Children need to learn, because their brain is in the process of building itself and to do so, it depends on your teachings. Not only is it unfair to impose pain onto a child for things he cannot understand nor control, but it's counterproductive, as it hinders the learning process.
I would still like to hear how the non-spanking lobby proposes a toddler’s harmful behaviors towards himself or others should be managed without imposing some form of retributive punishment.
I realize that this is a difficult concept to grasp for people who have been spanked before, or who see unpleasant consequences and pain as the only way to "teach" around them. This is one of the consequence of having this "lesson" taught for many years: power becomes such an internalized mode that it becomes difficult to even grasp that it is possible to teach without it. And yet, it is perfectly possible. Since you seem to be asking this very genuinely, I will attempt once more to explain. Note that I am not "a non spanking lobby". I am a researcher in child studies and child specialist, and a parent educator. I am not against spanking by "principle", I am against it because I know the devastating effect it has on children on the long term and I know how the children brain learns, from the psychological and developmental point of view.
Let's take your example: A toddler is hitting his sibling.
First, note that the very idea to teach a toddler not to hit by hitting him is, IMO, completely useless right from the start. The reason is simple: the number one learning tool for a toddler is modeling. Whatever you do as a parent is what the toddler will remember and copy the most, much more strongly than anything you actually say. To a lesser extent, any punishment means the use of power from a bigger person toward a smaller one. It also teaches that power is a way to handle problems.
But you are correct that right now, I am only telling you what NOT to do... and as you can see, this doesn't really help! So what DO we do? Well, all the things I mentioned in my last message are all good and working even in this situation. But to be more specific now :
How many times do you say, “no please, that’s not appropriate” while he hits his infant cousin with a truck?
Here is what you DO with a toddler. Note that what you exactly do with a kid heavily depends on his age and cognitive development, although it never needs any punishment what so ever to be effective:
1) You separate the children, so that the toddler no longer hits his cousin
2) You use body language to convey a message to the toddler. Remember, very small children are learning the language. The first language they understand best is not the words, which are new to them, but the faces and expression, which they understand right from their infancy stage. To get a toddler to stop hitting you is actually easy: make a frown, cry a little bit, make an exaggerated "ouch!" - SHOW in a clear way that it HURTS. That's right: toddlers don't even understand yet that people around them have feelings too. This is something that takes time for the human brain to understand. They need to realize that they aren't the only one who can feel pain.
3) You focus your efforts FIRST on the victim, not on the toddler who is hurting him. Always bring your attention first on the victim. So you talk to the cousin, tell him "Ouch! That must have been hurting!" and you give him a big hug and cuddle or kiss away the pain. It helps the toddler to notice that when someone is receiving a hit, they get the attention, not the opposite.
4) When you go back to the toddler, you first CONNECT. You get down on the toddler's level and make eye contact. You smile, you nod, you touch his arm. This re-establish the full attention from the kid to you and shows the kid you ARE NOT MAD.
5) Now, you are ready to EXPLAIN. You don't remove the toy! You can take his hand (still holding the toy) and show him how to make his move without hitting, by moving the toy slowly or gently. If he moves the toy rapidly and hit you, say a loud "Ouch" and make a sad face or "cry". I assure you he will get the lesson VERY fast. Remember that a toddler LOVES his parent, as soon as he realizes that he is hurting, he will stop. But you need to teach him, to help him realize that he is the one doing this.
All of this is the parental response to a situation in which it was assessed that the root cause of that behavior is simple the need for a toddler to learn to control his motor skills. This will be the case if the toddler is 1-2 years old, mostly.
By 2-3 or 4 years old, it becomes more complex, as the root cause might be sibling rivalry or jealousy. In this case, when you suspect it is the case, all the above points stay true wih the exception of the last one. Now instead of explaining, you need to LISTEN. Do some active listening, understand why it was done, and ACKNOWLEDGE and VALIDATE your kid's feelings of jealously, or anger, or envy. In many cases, young kids are acting out because they feel angry that you don't love them as much, that they need to share you with the cousin or the sibling. (but each situation is unique, so you really need to dig in).
Only when you have done that are you ready to EXPLAIN and teach. And once the root cause has been found and addressed (by teaching other means to handle anger, for instance, and by teaching the proper words that can be used to express these feelings), the behavior will naturally change and the problem is gone, for good. And none of the above step involved any form of retribution.
Those people do exist, and I have read their posts here, and it is them I address, not the parent who may occasionally feel it necessary to slap their eight year for the offense of disrespect. Does that mean that an occasional slap is effective - and warranted when “necessary”?
I totally disagree with the above poster. Whoever wrote this is confusing respect with fear.
Is it fear of what other might think or emotional weakness that prevents people from doing what needs to be done to keep their kids in line?
I suspect many parents have different reasons for their position on spanking. It is of absolute NO surprise to me, as I have studied this over and over, that a vast majority of the parents who use spankings were spanked when they were children.
All I can say without generalizing is that, as far as I am concerned, my position on how damaging and useless spanking in particular , and any form of retribution in general, is a professional position, based on years of research and the latest findings in psychology, education, neuro-biology and child development. You may think "it needs to be done", but most of the time, what it really means is that you don't know what else to do... | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/16/2009 10:07:16 AM |
I realize that this is a difficult concept to grasp for people who have been spanked before, or who see unpleasant consequences and pain as the only way to "teach" around them.
I get it! It’s irony right? - People who have been spanked have low IQs and can’t understand complex concepts like human behavior.
I don’t fall into either one of those categories and I find myself questioning the assertions you are making. That is to say, I don’t disagree with the methods you are promulgating. I have used them and observed them to be effective on occasion. What I find incongruous, is the fine line you appear to be drawing between ‘use of force as retribution’ and ‘use of force as a consequence’.
I do appreciate that you didn’t go on about what NOT to do. That is never helpful and you’re wise to recognize that.
Remember that a toddler LOVES his parent, as soon as he realizes that he is hurting, he will stop.
Lol. The problem here is that my tolerance for being whacked with a toy ends about the second whack, and his realization that it hurts me takes a little longer. But more importantly, he doesn’t seem to recognize his younger sister’s/older brother’s cries as cries of pain when they are the target. Sure he can be taught over time, but I can’t restrain him until he learns, and his siblings have a right to be protected from him (and vice versa).
This is an aside, but as a parent of a number of children I have found it is sometimes it is more expedient to address the offending child first because it terminates the unwanted behavior more quickly. E.g., little sister is strapped in her infant swing and it’s necessary to interpose yourself between them - forcibly moving (a/k/a “addressing”) the offender before he can strike again.
And none of the above step involved any form of retribution.
Maybe we differ on the forms and definitions of “unpleasant consequences” and “retribution”. Restraining the hand with the truck or removing a child from a room or from the presence of another child requires force - even if the extrication is performed gently. Anyone who has performed this maneuver has experienced the child’s dissatisfaction with the prevention and relocation - a result of their unhappiness with the turn of events (a/k/a ‘unpleasant consequence’). Keeping the children apart requires restricting somebody’s (or both children’s) liberty - again involving some force (a fence, gate, door = restraining force) and an unpleasant consequence (the restricted liberty). This is form of retribution similar to a time out or grounding.
Sure you can call it a ‘natural consequence’ and pretend it has nothing to do with punishment - he hits others therefore I need to separate him - but that assumes that a two year old can tell the difference between being restricted for other’s safety and being restricted for his unwanted behavior. It’s all the same to him and he doesn’t like it. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/16/2009 10:54:38 AM | Well if you spank a stupid child I would not expect "its" IQ to gain and if you have a stupid parent spanking a brilliant child it will rebel and if sensitive, show signs of PTSD. If you have an intelligent parent spanking an intelligent child either the child will improve its behaviour or rebel in secret. The child who rebels in secret may end up having problems with the law as it may believe it is smarter than everyone else. The stupid child being spanked rather than reasoned with may end up having problems with the law because it is angry and has not experienced being understood or valued.
There are so many factors that can skew the results of such a study that I would not place much value in it. One must take each child and parent situation and consider the players involved before placing a value on spanking. Some kids, dogs, horses learn quicker than others. That is why those who teach/train best are those who are willing to ponder ways to reward good behaviour and ways to deter poor behaviour. The ideal teacher/trainer/parent steps back when frustrated or angry and takes time out to think about how to best proceed with the testy student. Sure seperates the barbarians from the sissies doesn't it! Neither barbarian or sissy will succeed over one who has managed to find the middleground between. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/16/2009 9:18:15 PM | [Those people do exist, and I have read their posts here, and it is them I address, not the parent who may occasionally feel it necessary to slap their eight year for the offense of disrespect.
[Does that mean that an occasional slap is effective - and warranted when “necessary”?]
[I totally disagree with the above poster. Whoever wrote this is confusing respect with fear.]
I am not confusing respect with fear, as I don't believe that hitting another human being ever results in respect! I am merely recognizing that a parent may slap a child without being abusive as a general rule. We all make mistakes, but the inability to recognize them as such compels me to "ante up" my two cents.I have stated, many times, my personal belief that hitting a child is an action taken by a parent FOR the parent, as a means to gain control (or as an outlet, to feel better) at a particular moment, and that it is never a teaching mechanism. Having been "attacked", I felt the need to state that I have some empathy for the parent who "loses it", and that it can be effective as a means of regaining control IN THE MOMENT, but I firmly believe that spanking is not "warranted". We are human, as such, we make mistakes. The inability to recognize that raising a hand to children, particularly young children, and further stating that one believes it is the preferred method of "teaching" a child acceptable behavior is lazy & self serving, never warranted, and I never said that it was.
I don't participate in these forums to preach, nor do I do so in order to find myself having to defend my words, taken out of context. I remain hopeful that at least one person will take the opinions & information posted here as food for thought, even if they are unwilling to admit it to strangers. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/16/2009 9:59:22 PM |
[Does that mean that an occasional slap is effective - and warranted when “necessary”?]
[I totally disagree with the above poster. Whoever wrote this is confusing respect with fear.]
To be more precise, ohwhynot46, I meant that whoever was saying that the occasional slap is effective as a way to promote respect is confusing respect for fear. I wasn't responding to your writings, but rather to the interpretation the previous poster did of your writings.
I am not confusing respect with fear, as I don't believe that hitting another human being ever results in respect!
Yes, we both are in total agreement on this!
I am merely recognizing that a parent may slap a child without being abusive as a general rule.
"Abusive" is a word that has heavy connotations, so it's difficult to agree on it's exact meaning. Let's just say we both agree that there are various degrees both in the act and in the intent, and that there is indeed a world of difference between some various type of physical retributions on a kid.
I still do believe, however, that in things related to hitting and physical violence, there is no "acceptable" level, this is the principle of zero tolerance.
I think we are fairly in agreement about most of what you wrote in your last message, especially about the importance of not judging parents and be understanding that all human beings make mistakes. :) Thank you for pointing that out, it was important to be said.  | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/17/2009 6:11:52 AM |
Having had a good night's sleep, I am less inclined to be serious, so... would you be my baby's daddy?
Seriously, your posts renew my faith in the world. You rock!
Can I come to the wedding? 
Yes parents make mistakes but not all parents see what they are doing as a "mistake", nor do they believe that anything they do to parent their child has more to do with relieving their own frustration than in "teaching" their child. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/17/2009 6:22:56 AM |
Having had a good night's sleep, I am less inclined to be serious, so... would you be my baby's daddy?
Seriously, your posts renew my faith in the world. You rock!
Awww...
Thank you! In some threads like the "Not The Momma" thread, I am taking some serious bashing, so it's good to hear some positive feedback... 
Thank you! | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/19/2009 6:44:45 AM | Well, that's a pretty goofy study. There are so many variables where the "effect" here is actually the cause.
In the socio-economic categories where the average IQ is higher, kids generally aren't physically punished. Also, smart kids, while capable of being quite naughty, are certainly going to be better at avoiding getting in trouble or at least talking their way out of it, feigning remorse, etc. Furthermore, dumb kids have dumb parents that aren't likely to be able to employ psychological discipline. Yet another issue is family communication. A stimulating early childhood would positively effect IQ to some extent and would include a better network of communication over wrong-doings than spanking.
The same thing could be applied better to children who are given some room to argue with their parents, within reason, than children who are just told to be quiet and do as they're told. That's what they should have done the study on, considering it's more arbitrary; most parents don't want their kids to be argumentative, but it's actually helpful for their development. On the other hand, most parents already feel bad about spanking and don't need the extra reinforcement there.
Frankly, the study that implies that smoking raises one's IQ is more compelling than this. And yeah, that's as ridiculous as it sounds. Basically, what's going on there is that people with a lot of stress are more likely to smoke and stress generally correlates with intelligence somewhat. Does that mean smoking makes someone smarter? No. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/21/2009 4:32:48 AM | It only lowers the child's IQ if you hit the child round the head and most people spank their children round the legs and bum, go figure.
Spanking is fine, because it is barely anything.. a slight tap.. end of story really | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:56:17 AM |
Spanking is fine, because it is barely anything.. a slight tap.. end of story really
If you followed up with a teaching moment, I might agree with you assuming the slight tap was indeed all the spanking was....sadly it is not always the case. If it is only a slight tap then why wouldn't holding (not squeezing) your child's hands while looking at them at eye level and talking with them be just as effective?
A good tool to use with children under 3 is redirection....... | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:36:54 PM | I spank my daughter, not often and definetly not for a squable in wall mart lol.
Punishment has to be given when a child does something wrong. Consequences for actions must be tought somehow.
To learn the difference is up to parents not children. It's a hard call, but sometimes when a child will not learn from any other experience a slap on the but, out of love not anger is sometimes the only answer.
Hence the old expresion this is going to hurt me more than its going to hurt you.
I cry every time I have to give my daughter a spanking.
Lonewarrior629 | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:59:27 PM | Lonewarrior,
you say that you cry everytime you have to give your daughter a spanking, and that it hurts you more that it hurts her.
You also seem to believe that spanking is sometime the last resort, that you have no choice.
What if I tell you and could show you other ways not involving punishment, and that works even in these situation? What if I could guarantee you you'd never have to use spanking ever again, and yet that the teaching will work - would that be of any interest to you? Would you consider it, even though right now, you seem to think there are no other ways sometime? | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/22/2009 6:02:00 PM |
What if I tell you and could show you other ways not involving punishment, and that works even in these situation? What if I could guarantee you you'd never have to use spanking ever again, and yet that the teaching will work - would that be of any interest to you? Would you consider it, even though right now, you seem to think there are no other ways sometime?
I cannot imagine anyone turning you down when you put it that way, CS. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/22/2009 6:28:18 PM | ...
well ... as a person that has given this much thought and my own brand of research.
and no...i don't believe it to be ethically acceptable for incompletely educated person(s) of scholastic community to follow infants or children around from a blind. i have no doubt that it is occurring...but it has no valid ethic.
so...i have very highly doubtfull faith in this study or its researcher.
it was spoken correctly by one of your respondents...there is no premise.
not a single proof that a child was more or less spanked unless of course the researcher had bugging devices in the childs home...that would not surprize me.
much more to say of the practice of encroachment of children by vain and lesser intelligent of society in researchers. and it is ongoing...
no. there is no direct correlation between iq and spanking. because there are no true or accurate researches which draw specificity to the hypothetical relationship.
now...if you want to talk about social performance and stress...that can be validated.
and yet iq is a hypothetical proposition.
negative to the study...negative to the findings...and negative to murray straus.
h0w many like him...? | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/22/2009 7:02:07 PM | | I have raised kids twice - the first 3 were when I was very young and there is a big gap before the younger 2. I spanked the first 3 whenever I felt they had done something to deserve it. They learned very quickly not to get caught and to settle their own conflicts with violence. Luckily, as they got older they learned better - as did I. My younger kids have never been spanked - causing less anger and resentment. This makes teaching good behavior so much easier. I was also spanked as a child - quite often in fact. This does not mean that I was a bad child - all children need correction constantly. They will learn better if they are not angry and if they trust their parents. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:00:40 PM | purpose what the hell are you talking about?!  Truth is, you may have a point, regarding the study, and it IS the topic originally presented, but this thread has become about so much more.
Stacey, thank you, as you have clearly been on both sides of the fence, and have at the very least attempted more than one method, and learned from your experiences.
As for me, I cannot read some of these posts without wondering how in this society, where there isso much information available , parents will outright CHOOSE ignorance. Educate yourselves, try various methods, then decide what works. I cannot help but feel that so many are so lazy or unwilling to admit errors that they will not not even concede that there may be some validity to anothers' point of view.
Lonewarrior, I apologize in advance for singling you out but it is your post:
{Punishment has to be given when a child does something wrong. Consequences for actions must be tought somehow.}
Agreed that consequences must be taught. I fail to see however, how hitting a child teaches consequences. If your child misbehaves at school are they hit? If you misbehave at work, are you struck by your boss? When you hit your child for behaving in a manner which you deem inappropriate, how exactly do you think that the spanking teaches the child anything at all? I have admitted that I have given my children a swat or two in their lifetimes, but I have never excused my behavior by explaining it as a way of teaching them anything at all, much less the consequence for the action that resulted in the swat. Consequences for actions are taught by applying consequences which result from those action; removal of the privilege which was taken advantage of, for example. The rules of logic are fairly simple, even while realizing that the logic of children isn't always, well, logical. It is up to us, as parents, to teach them, and to do so at age appropriate levels.
[To learn the difference is up to parents not children. It's a hard call, but sometimes when a child will not learn from any other experience a slap on the but, out of love not anger is sometimes the only answer.}
The slap merely ceases behavior in the moment, it teaches not a thing about HOW TO behave properly. Frankly, I don't understand how one could think that it does, but, you said it, to learn the difference is up to the parent.
{I cry every time I have to give my daughter a spanking.]
You don't HAVE to spank your child, you choose to!
Earlier in the thread, someone referred to the fact that what we infer from a child's actions is merely our interpretation of their thought process, and we interpret as adults. Children are not adults; they do not think as adults do. They are not cunning or manipulative at 2 years of age, even if the thought of them being so makes us feel better about raising a hand to them. I am sorry, but I firmly believe that refusing to accept this is laziness & the choice to remain ignorant. There is much to be said for the parent as model. How many participants in this discussion have mentioned the fact that they were spanked as defense against spanking?
If you cry when you hit your child, what do you think it is that makes you cry? Clearly, you are hurting yourself as well as hurting the one you love. What good do you really think can come of that, and the relationship that YOU are responsible for building? Model that behavior, and you can rest assured that if she(he) is abused later in life by someone she loves, and claims to love her, she will lay blame on herself. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:08:48 PM | propurpose wrote the following in another thread but I think it fits this thread so much better and I like the way it was written. Hope you don't mind me reposting your comment here propurpose...
...spanking is a fear response form of love which the lesser communicative/knowledgeable ab use to....protect .. nurture .. guide .. control .. etc.
simple as that. | |
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| Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:46:52 PM |
It only lowers the child's IQ if you hit the child round the head and most people spank their children round the legs and bum, go figure. Spanking is fine, because it is barely anything.. a slight tap.. end of story really (Rossjackson)
This is based on the assumption that the children's IQ is lowered from a physical damage to their brain. However, this assumption is not correct (although of course, damage can also occur from physical trauma).
IQ is a measure of the cognitive capacity, and this capacity is dependent on the amount of neural connections and the neuron density in the brain. Neuro-biology research has shown how a child's brain will spurt a huge amount of connections and neurons density in the brain during the early childhood development. When these neural connections are put to use, the brain recognizes that they are useful and they are reinforced with more connections at this place, helping the child acquire more cognitive capacity in this area. When the connections aren't used, they are dropped by the brain to make way for new fresh ones at the next developmental phase. This process is known to neuro-science as "pruning" (See "The Developing Mind: How Relationships and the Brain Interact to Shape Who We Are" from Daniel Siegal, 2001, The Guilford Press)
In other words, the brain is like a muscle that we train when we develop during the early childhood: it strengthen itself with richer connections when you use it. It weakens when it's not used.
This is why, for instance, infants can learn many many languages, pronounce a really wide variety of different sound and learn to hear and distinguish from very subtle differences fro many different language very easily, as long as they are immersed into that language from early on. If we wait too long before we are immersed into a language, the connections in our brain are already set, the pruning has dropped the blank connections, and we have a much harder time learning new sounds and hearing new sounds from foreign languages.
When we are in a "flight or fight" survival situation (when the body generates adrenaline and we feel fear and frustration), the brain turns off the "learning" mechanisms and switches to the "survival" mechanisms. These involves the reptilian, reflex part of the brains, while the higher cognitive functions are off. Thus, a child who is spanked stops learning. The brain connections stops being used, and they end up more likely to be dropped during the pruning process.
Spanking - even only on legs or the bottom - provokes suffering, which induces feelings of humiliation and fear. Even a slight tap, from someone you trust and love, will trigger a feeling of unfairness, which results in anger and frustration. These hinder the learning process and most likely results in an occasion on which the brain didn't use the connections. This study has actually demonstrated through statistics and experiment what the neuro-biological research has already demonstrated through cat scan and other research breakthrough. I don't doubt its finding one second, because it matches what I have learned at the university in my family life education studies. I hope you can understand a bit better now how there can be a very direct link between the use of suffering and pain on one hand, and a slight brain capacity reduction as a net result on the other hand, after many years of such parenting choices. | |
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