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 FalconDear
Joined: 9/7/2009
Msg: 51
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?Page 3 of 22    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22)
its: i agree with you. however we learned how to control our emotions from different paths. I learned anger management from my parents and my son learned from me. You had to learn on your own, which you then passed on to your child. I wish others would recognize that in themselves and take classes and learn it for themselves too. It sure does make having a peaceful house easier.

But I think what is happening here is people who cannot control their emotions feel that nobody can and so they work hard to push their inadequacies off on the rest of us. I also think that good hearted people would rather ban something and prevent parental abuse rather than show or teach adults how to be parents if they didn't learn already. There is quite a bit of ignorance as we have both seen on some of the other threads. Just the idea that someone would hit another, adult or child, out of stress or anger is sad.

The funny thing is some would look at the vulcan grip as preventing a child to leave without bodily harm...and call that abuse. Some would consider forcing a child into time-out as abuse... there is always something that someone doesn't like. We had a case down here in America a couple of weeks ago where a child was homeschooled, ahead of her peers in many areas academically, participating in sports but because her father didn't like that she was being raised religiously, had the court come in and order her into public school. He seen her religion as an abuse that had to be corrected. I think the point I am trying to make is someone will always have a problem with something... IMHO: smoking around a child is a form of neglect... as is parents who shack up with a new man/woman every weekend, and moms who move in with men after two months... but that is my opinion.
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 12:29:15 PM

And furthering that thought, if it's effective, why don't we spank adults?

We do, it's called life in prison/capitol punishment.

Also, I often wonder, if those criminal adults had been spanked as kids: "Would they have learned that breaking the law is "bad" not the other way around?"

This thread is another classic case of "moral pushing".

I don't agree with spanking, so EVERYONE shouldn't agree with spanking.

Some things, like raising ones children, boils down to personal preference. Personal preference is neither "right" nor "wrong" in a definite sense of the word. It is; however, "right for you" or "wrong for you". Those two statements do not give people the right to push the "right/wrong" into the public, because EVERYONE is not like YOU.

Keep out of people's lives, it is none of your business what others do (Unless it is effecting you of course.)

Watch, the implications of abuse/etc are to follow.
 tass08
Joined: 8/11/2008
Msg: 53
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 1:29:19 PM
I agree Jaxi.....and I also agree that this among many studies in human nature are inherently flawed because one cannot account for all the factors in the human psyche that could affect the outcome. Still, this study among many others go to demonstrate that corporal punishment has negative affects on children - are they all wrong?


So you agree that this study and others conducted in the same manner are fundamentally flawed, but you still say it demonstrates something valuable. Bullshi|t says I. Either a study is reliable or it's not. Using a poorly constructed soapbox to stand on when you make your point doesn't give your argument more authority, it just means you'll use anything to get your point across. Bear in mind that I agree with your position on corporal punishment.
 That Guy Him
Joined: 8/5/2009
Msg: 54
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 1:31:00 PM
We already have rules of conduct with respect to physical affection crossing the line from nurture to sexual abuse and those lines are very clear...

Are they? I remember hearing about cases where fathers had their children removed from their care because they were allowed to share a bed. There was never any sexual conduct taking place... just a mere belief that the possibility could exist. How far do you think we really are from getting our lawmakers from outlawing fathers from hugging their daughters... mothers from hugging their sons? I've seen people pushing for it.

edit: It's already grabbed hold in schools:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21097673/

http://current.com/items/90120301_schools-ban-hugging-enforce-3-second-hug-rule.htm

Children can't hug their friends in school. It won't be long until someone finds a way to expand the inappropriateness of it to include them hugging their parents.

I think you may be accusing me of having an agenda of my own.

No... I'm accusing the people who conducted this study of having a hidden agenda.

I would love to debate the topic with anyone who believes in corporal punishment as the best parenting tool available but quite frankly you cannot debate a topic such as this...it is far too emotional a topic for many and way too personal.

I am neither in favour of nor do I oppose it. It is simply a disciplinary measure. Admistered correctly, it can be an effective tool in helping a child learn that there are consequences for their actions. Administered incorrectly, it can inflict severe emotional trauma.
 InNCsearching
Joined: 7/22/2009
Msg: 55
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 2:06:02 PM
well i guess from the beginning of time til 20 years ago when this whole non-spanking thing came about means...the whole world is populated by idiots. i don't buy it. it's bullsh#t. unles you spank the child in the head like a professional boxer just one more thing to make this a child centered world. last time i checked, children do not make money and need a good swat on the butt to get their attention when acting out. these will be the same kids that get in a fight for the first time and wonder....owww...that hurt. wait you mean if i piss someone off they will hit me? duh...dam right they will.
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 56
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 2:11:55 PM
I think the research is flawed. they aren't sitting on their heads. If that were the case, being one that was spanked and has an iq in the genius level,are you saying It would be even higher?
 shrimp46
Joined: 1/12/2009
Msg: 57
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 2:54:36 PM
If my kid missing up in a F..... store Im gonna beat her ass...No BRUISES ...She will know Not to F...up again ITALIAN DISIPLINE
 hooked_and_happy
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 58
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 3:58:36 PM

This thread is another classic case of "moral pushing".

I don't agree with spanking, so EVERYONE shouldn't agree with spanking.

That's exactly how I read this thread too.

I was spanked, as were my brothers... not bad enough in that I can remember, but I do remember seeing my younger brothers spanked. We're all pretty smart (if I do say so myself). We all graduated from college/university and hold pretty great jobs.

Besides, what does IQ have to do with it anyways? I'm sure that if I were to get an IQ test that it wouldn't be high enough to say I'm anywhere near genius standards. I'm smart at my job and other things in that I need to know in life, but things like math and science... not so much.


So what do you think? If you spank, does this latest study change your thinking about spanking?

Not even a little bit.

I don't think that spanking should be the sole way parents discipline thier kids, but I'm also not going to tell them that they can't.


Keep out of people's lives, it is none of your business what others do (Unless it is effecting you of course.)

Yep, what he said.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 59
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/27/2009 4:49:04 PM
I am not opposed to ALL spanking, and wouldn't deem it as abuse, however, I do think that spanking is NOT discipline. Spanking makes the parent feel better, while teaching the child ONLY that if they pizz off someone bigger than they are, they will get hurt. Don't get me wrong, I have given my kids a swat or two in their lifetime, but never without a warning, and a specific one at that, admitting that I will use my hands to stop them from acting out, if they aren't willing to listen. A quick swat is sometimes the most effective way to stop a particular behavior instantly. If we tell ourselves that it teaches children how to behave, though, we are fools. Frankly, some of the posts are disturbing. How unfortunate that ignorance cannot be beaten out of you.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 60
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:13:53 AM
I think it is a flawed study because the only way to really measure this would be to take two children who by the age of four had not been spanked with the same IQ and have one in an environment within which they were spanked and one that wasn't.

The differences in IQ can be genetic and relating a great deal to more than just whether they are being spanked, i.e. are the spankings like some people that they are few and far between and primarily related to physical danger type issues or does the parent spank them for most of the discipline and also not spend the type of quality time with them that develops their intellect because in addition to being spanked, they are neglected.

Unless the study controlled for parenting style, with IQ such a touchy issue (cultural bias and other issues) to begin with because measurements are flawed and IQ is only a base line for how well the child will achieve in school, I wouldn't put all that much stock into the study.

Something like this would really only work with twins separated and adopted out at birth to two very different homes.

For example, was talking to a woman last night whose son was six months younger than her niece. The niece was being raised by the grandmother and she literally didn't talk to her (her marriage had split by then and she was raising her by herself with no one else in the house) when she was very young, was far behind the younger cousin with language acquisition until the mother of the grandson said you need to start talking to this girl, read books or the newspaper, doesn't have to be kid stuff, just read and talk to her. If they had been measured at that time for IQ there would likely have been a huge difference between the boy and the girl and I don't think intelligence wise, they are that far apart at the age of 18, I have met the boy and he is just socially strange, lol.

When people see studies like this and particularly articles about the studies, there is usually no discussion about whether the research design was adequate to eliminate all of the many variables. This is similar to much of the divorce and its impact on children studies that have not controlled for efficacy of parenting before or after the split, while they have begun including that in the factors they are evaluating. Obviously if parents are parenting poorly before the split and they don't improve after the split, it is going to be traumatic for the child, duh. If the child is parented well by at least one of the parents prior to the divorce and that good parenting and even possibly improvement on the other part of the parent occurs, these children cope as well and most often better than their peers that aren't being parented well and live in highly contentious two-parent homes. Even if neither parent is doing well before the divorce, often the custodial parent gets it together and does better when the stuff with the spouse isn't in the middle of every single day.

For this study and future studies of this nature to be meaningful, a great deal of information about overall parenting, particularly whether they are doing anything to stimulate the intellect is important information that must be included to determine whether spanking is the single factor impacting IQ performance. At 4 and 5, school has not had that much of an impact on the child's development although with older children, school could narrow the gap relative to intellectual stimulation of a child. But my parents were school teachers and any good teacher will tell you that it is only the extraordinary child that will really do well, no matter how smart they are, if the parents don't really understand that housing, feeding and clothing is only a part of raising their children.

Ohwhynot makes a good point because there is a huge difference between spanking as a main disciplinary tool and spanking occasionally and doing the other things you need to do to teach a child the proper way to behave.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:27:01 AM
Another case of correllation vs causation in my mind.

I think another poster said it, and i agree. I think the tendancy for spanking children is far more prevalent in lower education and lower income families. Sure there are exceptions, but I'd bet that stat would bear out.

IQ is menatal age as it relates to physical age, if you are in a lower income/educational househould i think it bears out that they would have a lower mental age. As an average i would also bet that the average iq of parents that spank is ALSO lower.

Hell some of the smartest people i know are conservatives, but have you seen that map that showed the average IQ of states that went to george w bush in the 04 election? Holy Cow it was damning.
 futureshock
Joined: 5/8/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:30:00 AM

Spanking Found To Have Negative Effects On Low-income Toddlers
ScienceDaily (Sep. 15, 2009) — A new longitudinal study that looks at how low-income parents discipline their young children has found that spanking 1-year-olds leads to more aggressive behaviors and less sophisticated cognitive development in the next two years. Verbal punishment is not associated with such effects, especially when it is accompanied by emotional support from moms. In addition, 1-year-olds' fussiness predicted spanking and verbal punishment at ages 1, 2, and 3.

The study, which explored whether mothers' behaviors lead to problematic behavior in children, whether children's challenging behaviors elicit harsher discipline, or both, appears in the September/October 2009 issue of the journal Child Development. It was conducted by researchers at Duke University, the University of Missouri-Columbia, the University of South Carolina, Columbia University, Harvard University, and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Beliefs on spanking vary across cultures. In this study, the researchers looked at more than 2,500 exclusively low-income White, African American, and Mexican-American mothers and their young children, interviewing and observing them at home when the children were 1, 2, and 3 years old. All participants' family incomes were at or below the federal poverty level.
Using their own interpretations of spanking, mothers reported how often anyone in the home had spanked their children in the past week. Researchers also made in-home observations of how often mothers verbally punished (scolded, yelled, or made negative comments) their children during the visits.
The study found that African American children were spanked and verbally punished significantly more than the other children in the study. The authors speculated that this may be due to cultural factors, such as belief in the importance of children's respect for elders and in the value of physical discipline to instill that respect. Moreover, some African American mothers say that in preparing their children for a harsh, physically dangerous, and racially discriminating world, there is little room for error in their childrearing.
The authors also uncovered information about the effects of those types of discipline.
"Our findings clearly indicate that spanking affects children's development," according to Lisa J. Berlin, research scientist at the Center for Child and Family Policy at Duke University and the study's lead author. Specifically, children who were spanked more often at 1 behaved more aggressively when they were 2 and had lower scores on tests measuring thinking skills when they were 3. These findings held up even after taking into consideration such family characteristics as mothers' race and ethnicity, age, and education; family income and structure; and the children's gender. The study also found that children who were more aggressive at age 2 and had lower cognitive development scores at ages 1 and 2 were not spanked more at ages 2 and 3. "So the mothers' behaviors look more influential than the children's," said Berlin.
Unlike spanking, however, verbal punishment alone didn't affect either children's aggression or their cognitive development. But interestingly, when verbal punishment was accompanied by emotional support from moms, the children did better on the tests of cognitive ability.
The study was funded by the National Institute of Mental Health.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090915100941.htm


Spanking May Cause Long-Term Harm
Study Finds Links Between Spanking And 10 Negative Behaviors
(CBS)  After analyzing six decades of expert research on corporal punishment, a psychologist says parents who spank their children risk causing long-term harm that outweighs the short-term benefit of instant obedience.

"Children become aggressive, delinquent, and have mental health problems, both in childhood and in adulthood," Elizabeth Gershoff, researcher at Columbia University's National Center for Children in Poverty, told CBS Radio News.

To read the rest:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/26/health/main513469.shtml


Study: Harm Outweighs Benefits of Spanking
washingtonpost.com,

Spanking children can make them temporarily more compliant but causes more problems than it cures by raising the risk that children will become aggressive, antisocial and chronically defiant, according to new research

To read the rest:
http://www.nospank.net/n-j15.htm



IS CORPORAL PUNISHMENT AN EFFECTIVE MEANS OF DISCIPLINE?


WASHINGTON -- Corporal punishment remains a widely used discipline technique in most American families, but it has also been a subject of controversy within the child development and psychological communities. In a large-scale meta-analysis of 88 studies, psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University, looked at both positive and negative behaviors in children that were associated with corporal punishment. Her research and commentaries on her work are published in the July issue of Psychological Bulletin, published by the American Psychological Association.
While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).
Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.

To read the rest:
http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html


 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:39:02 AM
Just an anecdote after reading some of the other posts. My children have never been spanked when they haven't been significantly warned beforehand, a given that they may have gotten a swat for heading for the street or something, which would have occurred without an immediate warning but obviously behavior they had already been told was dangerous and time was a factor.

When I am really at the end of my rope and toolbox with the kids, I go into my kitchen, grab a cabinet door and open and slam it until my timeout is over. This usually occurs after a full day of the kids, 10, 14 and 17, at each other's throats and/or not doing whatever minimal chores they have been asked to do, something that usually involves them justifying their inaction based on the siblings productivity, sigh. Oddly enough, a spanking is never involved because the little buggers realize they have gone to far and mom might actually snap for real.

I agree to a significant extent about the kids, not necessarily because of spanking but because the pendulum swung away from authoritarian to permissive parenting. I was absolutely appalled 14 years ago when we finally had custody of my then 16-year-old stepson. The way these kids talked to teachers and administrators, the really bottom of the barrel scum in school when I was coming up would not even have dreamed of saying.

I was spanked when I was a kid, it was not the fear of spanking that kept my mouth in check, and I back-talked plenty as a teen but there was a line that I didn't cross because it would not have been tolerated by my parents. I think today's kids know that many parents are afraid to really discipline their kids and to do the tough love thing if it is necessary when they are teens. It is also interesting that my daughter who is a senior has more than a few friends that have been kicked out of the house before they finish high school. Are the kids worse, or did the parents not set the appropriate boundaries for all of their developmental stages? My kids aren't angels, they infuriate me on a regular basis because evidently this is their job but they know there are certain things I am going to dig my heels in about and not give up reminding them that I am the adult and the only one with money, i.e. they can't take care of themselves and they know they aren't going to find anyone else willing to support them, and they must listen to me, sigh.

I'm looking at the when the kid gets bigger than you thing right now with my middle son and my youngest who will not only be taller than me one day, at 10, the kid is already built like a linebacker. I think what will make the difference with my boys is that they know that they do need someone telling them what to do even if they don't like it and as I am the only constant that has ever been in their lives, they will think long and hard about pushing me to a point that I have to draw a line in the sand.

As for the analogy with spanking adults, we spank them by firing them and by locking them up when they break laws. Just as with children, for some, the pocketbook and employment is sufficient motivation for behavior modification, when not, those people usually wind up either in dead end minimum wage jobs barely making ends meet or in jail.

And I agree that parenting without spanking is better but yannow, I can't really get it out of my head that every time I see a kid who is just acting so horribly that even when my kids were really young they would look at the kids like they were out of their minds for the behavior at the store or wherever, I think, that kid has never been spanked. Old school, chicken shit parenting or whatever one wishes to call spanking I think that there are places and times when it should occur.


62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Case in point, they looked at the child behaviors, did they investigate the parenting methods of any of the people using the corporal punishment, i.e. were they using any strategies beyond spanking, how often was spanking used, etc. Sixty-two years doesn't mean jack if the controls for other variables were not properly examined and managed.
 Vanderlan
Joined: 8/2/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:08:00 AM

Case in point, they looked at the child behaviors, did they investigate the parenting methods of any of the people using the corporal punishment, i.e. were they using any strategies beyond spanking, how often was spanking used, etc. Sixty-two years doesn't mean jack if the controls for other variables were not properly examined and managed.


These are summaries of the studies written for news publications, and as such there generally is not enough space in which to describe all of the variables and controls utilized in any given study. Fortunately the academic and governmental institutions from whence these studies originated are listed in these accounts. Following is a brief listing:

psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University
Duke University
University of Missouri-Columbia,
University of South Carolina,
Columbia University
Harvard University
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
National Institute of Mental Health
American Psychological Association

All of these institutions have reputations for outstanding, peer reviewed, rigorous scientific investigative work.
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:31:44 AM
I was thinking, out of a small list (Let's use:)

Albert Einstein
Bill Gates
Steve Forbes
Stephen Hawking
Carl Sagan
Arthur C. Clarke

How many of those folks got spankings as children? How many have a lower IQ than the people in this thread who have never been spanked?
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:39:03 AM

I think another poster said it, and i agree. I think the tendancy for spanking children is far more prevalent in lower education and lower income families. Sure there are exceptions, but I'd bet that stat would bear out.

IQ is menatal age as it relates to physical age, if you are in a lower income/educational househould i think it bears out that they would have a lower mental age. As an average i would also bet that the average iq of parents that spank is ALSO lower.

Hell some of the smartest people i know are conservatives, but have you seen that map that showed the average IQ of states that went to george w bush in the 04 election? Holy Cow it was damning.


Here we go again, stereotyping. Utter Nonsence, low income/ education has absolutely nothing to do with IQ. IQ isn't something you learn in school or something that can be bought. Hell you can have the IQ of a genius and still be uneducated and poor
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:03:13 PM
You really think so superdad? You're calling me out, as most of your posts are logical and level headed, i'll just give you some resources.

First off IQ tests generally include vocabulary; verbal analogies; number sequencing,
and some math. SOME children WILL have an advantage based on their upbringing. IQ stand for Intelligence Quotient, derived from the mental age of the child vs the physical age. If a child has been coached and educated from early stages of life (say pre k for example) it would make sense that they would have a competitive advantage would it not?

IQ IS in fact something you can learn in school actually, THAT is why they test children so young. You can develop skills that aide you, plus as you age it messes up the "quotient" and doesn't have as much validity.

Also their are other funtions of performance on testing, for example: Nutrition. The studies that show the effects of good nutrition on student performance are numerous. As are the studies that show that the lower you are in the socio-economic world, the worse your nutrition is (in general)

http://www.connectforkids.org/node/516
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-12-07-childrens-brains_N.htm

Theres a ton more out there. To say low income and education has nothing to do with IQ seems a bit out there to me. While you can have the iq of a genius and still be uneducated and poor, the odds are most certainly stacked against you. Nutrition, lifestyle, education ALL contribute to the brain development of children.
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:05:22 PM
Big Pacific:
What about my point:


I was thinking, out of a small list (Let's use:)

Albert Einstein
Bill Gates
Steve Forbes
Stephen Hawking
Carl Sagan
Arthur C. Clarke

How many of those folks got spankings as children? How many have a lower IQ than the people in this thread who have never been spanked?
 Vanderlan
Joined: 8/2/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:05:23 PM

Here we go again, stereotyping. Utter Nonsence, low income/ education has absolutely nothing to do with IQ. IQ isn't something you learn in school or something that can be bought. Hell you can have the IQ of a genius and still be uneducated and poor


While some of this may be true, it does not negate the findings of the study in the original post.



The IQ scores of children ages two to four who were spanked were 5 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.
The IQ scores of children ages five to nine who were spanked were 2.8 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.



Here is some information about the lead researcher. You can also view much more information about his work in this area by going to http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/.


Widely considered the foremost researcher in his field, Straus is the co-director of the Family Research Laboratory and professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. He has studied spanking by large and representative samples of American parents since 1969. He is the author of "Beating The Devil Out Of Them: Corporal Punishment In American Families And Its Effects On Children."
He has been president of three scientific societies including the National Council on Family Relations, and has been an advisor to the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation. Much of his research on spanking can be downloaded from http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2.
Straus's research was supported, in part, by a grant from the National Institute of Mental Health.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:15:05 PM
I actually was spanked spag. As for your list, i have NO idea if albert einstein was spanked, nor anyone else on that list. I couldn't begin to surmise.

If you choose to mention specifics to show that there are specific examples that go against a trend, I would agree there are. I don't think anyone here was saying that "if you are spanked, you have an IQ of 80, PERIOD". For the 6 you list, list 6,000,000 kids that get spanked, and then test them against the ones that aren't.

I think Einstein, Hawking AND Sagan would agree they were too small a test group to determine any real results.
 Spagett!
Joined: 8/9/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 12:46:21 PM

I think Einstein, Hawking AND Sagan would agree they were too small a test group to determine any real results.

That is why I said "A Small list"

I can make it a LOT bigger if you would like. How many do I need before I am right?

Also, what happened to the low IQ being because of TV. Or when it was because of violent video games? Or is all 3? If it is all 3, then which effects more? These are the questions that lead me to believe this is a hooey study.

Of course, this is opinion. The study is (as of now) fact. So I will be content with my wrong opinion (and until the 'facts' change it is wrong.)

FYI on the list I provided:
Einstien = spankings
Clarke = spankings

Those are the only two I have seen quotes saying they were spanked. The others, is a googleistic adventure I suppose. In the end, GREAT TOPIC! I wish I knew more about either side so I could participate better.
 Birchbeer76
Joined: 2/24/2009
Msg: 72
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:02:49 PM
I don't see spanking as the issue in of itself. The study, to be accurate should have included the parents in a questionairre of how they parented. Are they involved? Do they do all they can, or minimal? Were there observations of the family's done to see how they interacted?

In my own personal life I was spanked. I have spanked my kids, my friends have spakned their kids as well. I don't see an issue there.

The issue I see between my friends children and mine is involvement. I try to be very involved in my children's education. My buddy is taking the minimalistic, lets play computer all night and let the gameboy raise them (on average, sometimes he does stuff). There are more spankings going on in his home than in my home. But I think the spankings are just a symptom of something else...
 singlesuperdad
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 73
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:19:41 PM
Oh my god birchbeer you and your kids have lower IQ's now, lol. according to the above
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:24:26 PM
^^^^^^^^ Still waiting for your response to the IQ post i threw up earlier superdad.
'
And now for something completely differnet.

I think thats interesting spag, and often in these forums i see people that confuse correlation with causation. It isn't the end all be all.

Is it hard to believe that children that spend more time watching television aren't doing something that could be more based in the realm of academia? Or kids that play video games? The supposition that only ONE thing on this earth can affect a childs score seems a bit out there to me.

Also remember we are talking about IQ here, NOT intelligence. There is a VERY large distinction, many children don't test well. Some are late starters, hell einstein couldn't read for forever. He probably wouldn't have scored well at an early age.

I mean theres that stat that says kids that play music do better in school, i've always felt that is a misinterpretation of the data and that it was based on socio-economic backrounds, mom can't afford a baby grand probably can't afford a tutor if the kid struggles kinda deal. I sincerely doubt that violin is going to make the kid a genius, i think its MORE that kids with the ability to participate in music come from more affluent backrounds and therefor have a better support group.

I feel this study is similar, it's not that you are "beating" the kids brains out, so to speak. To me it reads that the backround and genetics of people that spank, probably on average isn't as good as those that don't. This isn't a "you shouldn't spank" agenda, i just think its interesting. Raise your kids as you see fit. Again, your results may vary.
 Rossjackson1985
Joined: 4/7/2009
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Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/28/2009 11:37:08 PM
a simple way to up the IQ count.. read.. i bet the kids who IQ's dropped didn't read a lot or their parents didn't read to them as infants..food for thought.
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