online dating service
REGISTER | MAIL/PROFILE | HELP | NOW ONLINE | SEARCH | RATING | FORUMS | SUCCESS STORIES

 

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest 100% free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Single Parents  > Does this change your mind about spanking your child?      Mod Threads Home login  
Page 4 of 17 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17
 Author Thread: Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 5:12:26 AM

So you agree that this study and others conducted in the same manner are fundamentally flawed, but you still say it demonstrates something valuable. Bullshi|t says I. Either a study is reliable or it's not. Using a poorly constructed soapbox to stand on when you make your point doesn't give your argument more authority, it just means you'll use anything to get your point across. Bear in mind that I agree with your position on corporal punishment.


If we were talking about A single study that showed there are negative aspects to spanking, yeah, I would take IT with a grain of salt. However, there have been so many studies on this topic and they all come to essentially the same conclusion...spanking carries far more negatives than positives....can you find even a single study that would support the "spanking is no big deal, I was spanked and I turned out ok" argument?

Sure you may well have turned out ok (I was spanked and I did) but how much better would I have been if my parents had not opted to use fear and threats to manipulate me into compliance (which btw didn't work anyway in my case...I'm a stubborn woman). The thing is that none of us knows how different we would be if we hadn't been spanked so to make the argument that you turned out ok is weak...turned out ok compared to what? You will never know.
 That Guy Him

Joined: 8/5/2009
Msg: 77
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 5:30:59 AM


While some of this may be true, it does not negate the findings of the study in the original post.

The IQ scores of children ages two to four who were spanked were 5 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.
The IQ scores of children ages five to nine who were spanked were 2.8 points lower four years later than children who were not spanked.

So what were the long term effects? Where's the comparison of IQ scores from ages 10 to 13? 14 to 18? 19 to 25? 26 to 35? 36 to 40? 41 to 52? The trend showed that the gap in IQ was decreasing as these children continued to age. I'd like to know the differences later on in life.
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 6:08:00 AM
That Guy, during childhood until about 25, we are learning and developing, at times at a lightening fast pace. Our physical bodies mature. We develop both emotionally and intellectually. A friend of mine and I were discussing how stress can affect development. Granted we were discussing emotional development, not intellectual development but logically I can see a link between the two and the effects of stress upon that maturation process/development.

He used the analogy of a plant (child) and the environment (home/parenting/etc) either allowing the plant to grow and thrive or shrivel up and die. I do believe that there are many factors that can negatively affect the development of children. As a parent, I took it upon myself to educate myself on what these factors were so I could design my parenting and our home to greatly reduce/eliminate these factors for my child(ren).

Among the understanding that corporal punishment carries more negatives than positives for a child, I also understand that calling the behaviour naughty and not the child is key to the development of self-esteem. Ensuring that children feel safe in their environment (free of drama/abuse/lots of anger, etc...), being consistent with expectations and "rules of conduct" that apply equally to everyone in the home, ensuring children eat a well-balanced diet, get plenty of exercise and sleep among so many other things set our children up to succeed, not to fail.

I think some folks see people who are anti-corporal punishment as permissive and that would be an incorrect assumption to make. The old "spare the rod and spoil the child" ideology is not something I personally buy into. Children need discipline in the form of teaching and allowing them to basically do what they want/when they want is in my opinion just a different form of abuse. Children need boundaries, they need to be socialized and to learn their abilities/limits, it is our job to teach them. Most of the parents I know who don't use corporal punishment are actually quite strict with their children and their children are well-behaved.
 packagedealx3

Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 79
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:32:43 AM

psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University
Duke University
University of Missouri-Columbia,
University of South Carolina,
Columbia University
Harvard University
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
National Institute of Mental Health
American Psychological Association

All of these institutions have reputations for outstanding, peer reviewed, rigorous scientific investigative work.

I don't disagree with that comment but there is also something that needs to be taken into consideration when one looks at psychological studies in particular. Most study something that is fairly narrow and many studies are designed to control for certain variables. When one looks at the discussion and conclusion section of the studies, the researchers will list the problems inherent with the design, the size of the sample, the things that were controlled for. With the divorce studies, for example, there have been at least twenty years or more of studies that did not even look at parenting style and efficacy, they were only looking at the age of the children at the time of divorce, whether the non-custodial parent was involved, etc. it has only been very recently that they have been factoring parenting into the studies. Many studies even failed to consider how the child was doing before the divorce, when mom and dad were bringing them up in a turbulent home, to see if the academic and social behaviors had deteriorated or if they were merely doing less well than their peers in good nuclear families, which would have been the case divorce or not. It has only been very recently that many studies have shown that if there is a good parent many kids do better after the divorce than would have been the case if mom and dad stayed together because the level of conflict in the home is, well, absent.

So it is not that any single study is massively flawed but psychological studies tend to feed off each other. We have findings from a study, there will be others done with larger samples, etc. to see if the results can be replicated. Then they start looking at the holes in the studies, so they design new studies to account for those and it may take 20 or more years to really get to the point that they have actually been able to isolate the one factor, in this case spanking, to gauge exactly what is going on.

The study that was originally cited in the OP illustrated that the IQ gap closed from the younger children to the older children so just using simple logic it is highly likely that those children that were five points behind at 4 and 5 years old were not quite so behind later suggesting that the children were not perhaps raised in an intellectually stimulating environment and that being in school where they were challenged properly made a difference in the IQ.

Psychological studies are frustrating from this standpoint because you really need a huge volume for the results to be empirical and many people that read them, report on them, or quote them, don't read the whole study and information gleaned from an article, as has been mentioned by several posters, is really suspect because they often don't understand what they are writing about and cherry pick what they report, like leaving out the disclaimers by the researchers relative to problems in design, variables not accounted for, etc., because they want the best bang for the buck with the article. Shock value stuff sells papers and magazines.
 1kindMan4U

Joined: 5/23/2007
Msg: 80
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:52:13 AM
Spanking is the application of physical violence over reason. I raised two kids to adulthood and never spanked them.

Now, cleaning my weapons in a wifebeater T-shirt whenever guys came over to pick up my daughter.. THAT sent a message that couldnt be ignored.

Or is that a country song. I forgot
 tass08

Joined: 8/11/2008
Msg: 81
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:58:43 AM
If we were talking about A single study that showed there are negative aspects to spanking, yeah, I would take IT with a grain of salt. However, there have been so many studies on this topic and they all come to essentially the same conclusion...spanking carries far more negatives than positives....can you find even a single study that would support the "spanking is no big deal, I was spanked and I turned out ok" argument?
My point was not that "studies" disprove your thesis. My point was that any study purporting to blame a single factor in a child's life/environment on how the child turned out is not worth the paper it is printed on. Any study saying spanking is ok would be just as flawed. I have already stated as much, twice, and you continue to respond to me as though I disagree with you about spanking. I agree with you about spanking. But your premise --- that a "study" proves spanking is bad --- is flawed, and detracts from rather than supports your argument.



Sure you may well have turned out ok (I was spanked and I did) but how much better would I have been if my parents had not opted to use fear and threats to manipulate me into compliance (which btw didn't work anyway in my case...I'm a stubborn woman). The thing is that none of us knows how different we would be if we hadn't been spanked so to make the argument that you turned out ok is weak...turned out ok compared to what? You will never know.

I never made the argument that I turned out ok having been spanked. I never brought myself into it. In fact I was not spanked but my personal SUBJECTIVE experience has no bearing on the argument one way or another. My point is that unless you can separate spanking from other factors in a child's upbringing, you cannot argue OBJECTIVELY that spanking is right or wrong.
 futureshock

Joined: 5/8/2009
Msg: 82
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 12:42:25 PM
It has only been very recently that many studies have shown that if there is a good parent many kids do better after the divorce than would have been the case if mom and dad stayed together because the level of conflict in the home is, well, absent.


Actually, the newer studies have differentiated between high conflict homes and low conflict homes. Only children from high conflict homes do better after a divorce. Children from low conflict homes do better IN GENERAL AND ON AVERAGE if the parents stay together.

Children from high conflict divorced homes only do better in comparison to other children from high conflict homes whose parents stay married. Children from high conflict homes whose parents divorce still do not do as well as children with parents who are married (as long as they are not in a high conflict marriage).


Another big surprise – divorce harms children
Thursday, January 22, 2009
By Robert Franklin

Here’s a shocker.  Divorce harms kids.  The latest evidence is reported here (The Australian, 12/8/08).
It reports on an international study detailed in the Journal Comparative Sociology. The study looked at educational outcomes for over 30,000 Australians and found that children lose up to a year of school incident to divorce. The study concludes,
"Divorce's impact on children's education is, we suggest, in a large part a consequence of the disruption, the loss of parental control and the difficulties that a sole parent or a step-parent faces in raising children - all of which reduces children's prospects for success in school."
This is just the latest evidence we have to support the notion that our 30 + -year experiment with no-fault divorce has failed. For decades, the concept of no-fault divorce was vigorously promoted by, among others, the National Association of Women Lawyers. The theory was that adults shouldn’t be trapped in a relationship that benefitted neither party. Into the bargain, the no-fault divorce crowd told us that children would be better off too if they weren’t exposed to constantly bickering parents. By 1983, every state but two had adopted no-fault divorce laws and, to no one’s surprise, the divorce rate soared.
Throughout the 1970s and early 80s, the divorce rate increased reaching over 40%. But now, thanks mostly to people’s actual experiences as well as the small avalanche of studies like the one reported on by The Australian, divorce rates are declining.
No-fault divorce laws should be modified, but more important is public education about the harmful effects of divorce on children. They are many and varied. Children suffer from divorce and when children suffer, society suffers too.? 
http://mensnewsdaily.com/glennsacks/2009/01/22/another-big-surprise-%E2%80%93-divorce-harms-children/

 futureshock

Joined: 5/8/2009
Msg: 83
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 1:16:02 PM

I don't disagree with that comment but there is also something that needs to be taken into consideration when one looks at psychological studies in particular. Most study something that is fairly narrow and many studies are designed to control for certain variables. When one looks at the discussion and conclusion section of the studies, the researchers will list the problems inherent with the design, the size of the sample, the things that were controlled for. With the divorce studies, for example, there have been at least twenty years or more of studies that did not even look at parenting style and efficacy, they were only looking at the age of the children at the time of divorce, whether the non-custodial parent was involved, etc. it has only been very recently that they have been factoring parenting into the studies. Many studies even failed to consider how the child was doing before the divorce, when mom and dad were bringing them up in a turbulent home, to see if the academic and social behaviors had deteriorated or if they were merely doing less well than their peers in good nuclear families, which would have been the case divorce or not. It has only been very recently that many studies have shown that if there is a good parent many kids do better after the divorce than would have been the case if mom and dad stayed together because the level of conflict in the home is, well, absent.

So it is not that any single study is massively flawed but psychological studies tend to feed off each other. We have findings from a study, there will be others done with larger samples, etc. to see if the results can be replicated. Then they start looking at the holes in the studies, so they design new studies to account for those and it may take 20 or more years to really get to the point that they have actually been able to isolate the one factor, in this case spanking, to gauge exactly what is going on.

The study that was originally cited in the OP illustrated that the IQ gap closed from the younger children to the older children so just using simple logic it is highly likely that those children that were five points behind at 4 and 5 years old were not quite so behind later suggesting that the children were not perhaps raised in an intellectually stimulating environment and that being in school where they were challenged properly made a difference in the IQ.


Any halfway decent study controls for variables like making sure the study isn't overlooking things like the intellectual stimulation in the environment, etc.


Psychological studies are frustrating from this standpoint because you really need a huge volume for the results to be empirical


The studies posted on this thread have for the most part, as far as I have read, been empirical and have included large samples over many, many years, all combined.


and many people that read them, report on them, or quote them, don't read the whole study and information gleaned from an article, as has been mentioned by several posters, is really suspect because they often don't understand what they are writing about and cherry pick what they report, like leaving out the disclaimers by the researchers relative to problems in design, variables not accounted for, etc., because they want the best bang for the buck with the article. Shock value stuff sells papers and magazines.




Spanking creates defiant, aggressive children

By Jared Wadley
News Service
Spanking makes it more likely, not less, that children will be defiant and aggressive. And physical punishment puts kids at risk for increased mental health problems, anti-social behavior and serious injuries, a new U-M report shows.
"There is little research evidence that physical punishment improves children's behaviors in the long term," says Elizabeth Gershoff, the report's author and an associate professor in the School of Social Work.
The report, released in collaboration with the Phoenix Children's Hospital in Arizona, offers a review of empirical research on the effects physical punishment has on children.
Gershoff analyzed 100 years of research and published studies on physical punishment, spanking in particular. Most findings indicate that spanking is an ineffective parenting practice within the United States and around the world.
"There is growing momentum among other countries to enact legal bans on all forms of physical punishment," says Gershoff, whose research focuses on the impacts of parenting and violence exposure on child and youth development over time.
The practice is regarded as a violation of international human-rights law, she says.
Several recent studies reveal that many parents still physically abuse their children, especially children ages 1 and 2. By the time children reach fifth grade, 80 percent have received physical punishment.
In multiple studies, spanking has been found to lead to mental health problems in children, such as anxiety and depression, alcohol and drug use, and poor psychological adjustments. These problems also increase stress levels, she says.
Gershoff's report indicates that spanking can also harm parent-child relationships. If a child avoids painful experiences, and if he or she sees the parent as the source of pain from corporal punishment, he or she may avoid parents. This can interfere with a child developing trust and closeness, she says.
So how should parents discipline their children? Gershoff says children behave better when they are motivated by praise or the promise of rewards rather than by threats of punishment. Children need teaching and guidance from parents so they can learn how to make better choices in the future.
"(Spanking) does not teach children why their behavior was wrong or what they should do instead," the report states.
The findings appear in "The Report on Physical Punishment in the United States," www.phoenixchildrens.com/about/community-outreach-education/
effective-discipline.html.
http://www.ur.umich.edu/0809/Mar30_09/07.php
 Rossjackson1985

Joined: 4/7/2009
Msg: 84
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 1:26:57 PM
as i stated before.. i was spanked and i am not defiant nor aggressive. I am depressed.. but that is due to a different set of circumstances that occured in my late teens and not related to spanking. It is not a violation of human rights as the act doesn't actually damage the child and they do learn the bounderies..well..cos.. my entire family are living proof.. we are all intelligent and successful and we were all spanked and it was worse for my parents ad grand parents as tyhey used to recieve the cain across the palms of their hands.

aslong as you are not physcially beating the child and it is done in an controlled, non emotional manner with an open handed gentle slap that doesn't leave a mark.. then all is good.
 Vanderlan

Joined: 8/2/2009
Msg: 85
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 2:28:15 PM
as i stated before.. i was spanked and i am not defiant nor aggressive. I am depressed.. but that is due to a different set of circumstances that occured in my late teens and not related to spanking. It is not a violation of human rights as the act doesn't actually damage the child and they do learn the bounderies..well..cos.. my entire family are living proof.. we are all intelligent and successful and we were all spanked and it was worse for my parents ad grand parents as tyhey used to recieve the cain across the palms of their hands.

aslong as you are not physcially beating the child and it is done in an controlled, non emotional manner with an open handed gentle slap that doesn't leave a mark.. then all is good.


Are you sure that it isn't a violation of human rights?







CORPORAL PUNISHMENT: Towards Constructive Child Discipline
Report
During the Commission on Human Rights, UNESCO launched a new report entitled "Eliminating Corporal Punishment - The Way Forward to Constructive Child Discipline". The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child has consistently recommended States Parties to the Convention on the Rights of the Child to prohibit corporal punishment and other forms of violence against children in institutions, in schools, and in the homes. The past 25 years have shown that the elimination of corporal punishment is not easy to achieve.
To discipline or punish through physical harm is clearly a violation of the most basic of human rights. Research on corporal punishment has found it to be counterproductive and relatively ineffective, as well as dangerous and harmful to physical, psychological and social well being. While many States have developed child protection laws and systems violence still continues to be inflicted upon children.
This UNESCO publication provides a comprehensive approach, including the main steps to be considered in the process of eliminating corporal punishment, and provides tools to accomplish this goal. It shows the human rights imperative and describes several aspects of the negative consequences and implications that are caused. It details practical steps for more constructive and effective child discipline practices, and ongoing supports for long-term change.
An international panel of experts presents descriptions of some of the constructive discipline orientations and practices known to be applied in Asia, Africa, Europe, the Middle East, and South America. They include: involving learners and their parents in decisions about codes of conduct and associated practices; providing guidance in the selection of positive models in peers and classmates; family meetings and inter-generational dialogue; rendering services to the community to rectify rule infractions; and exploring ethical-moral meanings and implications in current events. Additionally, two experts on Indigenous peoples provide descriptions of constructive child rearing and discipline orientations and related practices for peoples they know well.
For more information, contact:?UNESCO ?7 Place de Fontenoy, 75352 Paris 07 SP, France?Tel: + 33 1 45 680 686; Fax: + 33 1 45 685 626?Website: www.unesco.org

 Consigliori

Joined: 1/7/2008
Msg: 86
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 3:05:16 PM
I'm afraid I'll have to return to review the entire thread - but I'd like to add that:

I come from a non-spanking, pacifist family and my preference is provide consequences with as little corporal impact as possible. That said I reserve the right to spank my kids if I think it should be necessary.

Interestingly, the highest court in my home state (MN) decided last year that a father who paddled his son with a stick dozens of times was within his rights to do so. - Don't have the cite handy - sorry.

Also, even if the study the OP cites were accurate, I would argue there are more important characteristics for my children to have than intelligence, i.e.: honesty, integrity, respect for others, etc., and that, given a choice, I would trade a drop in IQ points for values if I thought that spanking would teach my children meaningful values.

gottarun
 hooked_and_happy

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 87
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:08:16 PM

Sure you may well have turned out ok (I was spanked and I did) but how much better would I have been if my parents had not opted to use fear and threats to manipulate me into compliance

What about the fear and threat of being put into your room or another room for hours at a time, or having your favorite most treasured toy taken away for days or being told that you could never do -(insert your favorite activity here)- anymore? Do you not think that to certain kids that would have a traumatic impact on thier lives and cause a drop in IQ? Just because a parent doesn't spank thier kids, doesn't mean that there aren't other non-physical disciplines that may cause an IQ drop.

The thing is that none of us knows how different we would be if we hadn't been spanked so to make the argument that you turned out ok is weak

The thing is, none of us know how our lives would have changed had we NOT been spanked. I was afraid of my dad when I was little. Not scared as is... I cried and screamed at the thought of getting in trouble... but scared enough that I KNEW not to get into trouble. Imagine if my dad would have just put me on a 'timout' instead of giving me a tap on the bottom? The thing is, we'll never know.

can you find even a single study that would support the "spanking is no big deal, I was spanked and I turned out ok" argument?

Why would I need to find a study? Why must we all do things according to some so-called expert's findings? Um, I'm not sure which apples to buy my kids for thier lunches... I guess I should find a study to tell me what apples to buy, cause god knows, if it's a study it MUST be right.

To each thier own.
 packagedealx3

Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 88
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:25:55 PM

Any halfway decent study controls for variables like making sure the study isn't overlooking things like the intellectual stimulation in the environment, etc.

No they don't, because it is impossible to initially isolate for everything. It may be impossible to ever isolate the single variable because we don't live in labs.

With spanking for example, it is absolutely impossible to do a study that would truly measure this. Taking sets of children with the same IQ, preferably twins and raising them exactly the same with the only difference being spanking. Can you do this in the same home, treat your kids like guinea pigs. Can you find families that spank and families that do not that would be willing to take one of the twins and raise them for the purpose of the study?

It is impossible to control for personality and temperamental differences in children, personality differences in parents, are the parents going to discipline and do everything else the same? Is a parent that has little physical contact with their child and doesn't spank going to produce a more well rounded higher IQ child than the parent that has a lot of physical contact with a child, huggling, snuggling, loving and occasionally spanks when there is physical danger involved? Have they controlled for the quality of the relationships of the parents? Were all of these children from two-parent biologically intact nuclear families? Socio-economic level also plays into this because people without money don't take their children to museums and other intellectually stimulating activities and have less things in their homes designed to stimulate intellectual development, less books, etc. Nutrition also plays a role, were the nutritional intakes of the children involved in the study examined as well?

What these studies do is they start small, they investigate a single variable and try to control for the differences. Then the next study controls for the problems with the first one, the third one controls for other things that were problematic in the second one. Most of the studies that need to be done aren't as effective as they could be because of the need for studies following these children for 30 years to see if as adults they are continuing to underperform in comparison to their non-spanked peers. If the difference in IQ is apparently mitigated by a couple of years of schooling as represented by the ages that kids were evaluated, can't we conclude that by high school no gap would exist, at least relative to IQ? If the studies started out this way, controlling for every possibility and examining all of the variables involved, those that were done 40 years ago would have looked at parenting styles and they did not.
 singlesuperdad

Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 89
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:32:18 PM

Um, I'm not sure which apples to buy my kids for thier lunches... I guess I should find a study to tell me what apples to buy, cause god knows, if it's a study it MUST be right.


I've seen studies that say apples aren't good for you,lmao.
I agree TO HELL with all the studies, Life has an infinite amount of variables and no amount of studies are going to tell you the outcome.There will ALWAYS be, what if?
 nurse1275

Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 90
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 4:47:01 PM
Who needs studies about spanking you children. Look around US , how many of US were spanked as children? And now it's illegal to spank your kids..... I dont need a studies to know kids now these days are more UNRULY than when i grew up. So this leads me to believe that with all these people that dont spank their children is making the world a harded place to live. I believe OUR society has become worse because kids are being raised without disipline. I do know that what works for some kids doesnt work for others but i know too many people who never spanked their children and now they are paying for it with kids who are disrespectful brats.
 russw7676

Joined: 9/8/2009
Msg: 91
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 6:13:05 PM
I would like to see the study that shows the relationship between removal of corporal punishment from schools and lower student test scores in the u.s.
 singlesuperdad

Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 92
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 6:21:09 PM

And now it's illegal to spank your kids


Maybe in your state but not in florida
 That Guy Him

Joined: 8/5/2009
Msg: 93
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 6:31:14 PM
That Guy, during childhood until about 25, we are learning and developing, at times at a lightening fast pace. Our physical bodies mature. We develop both emotionally and intellectually.

That's why I think it's important to address the long term effects on the spanked in comparison to the unspanked beyond just the age of 9. I mean I was spanked, and the last IQ test I took back in February only came back at 137. So if all other spanked people are this dumb, who the hell is bringing the average IQ score down so bloody low if all the unspanked people are smarter than the rest of us spanked folks?

Children need discipline in the form of teaching and allowing them to basically do what they want/when they want is in my opinion just a different form of abuse.

And that's where I find the problem with declaring spanking as abuse. There are children who have learned to cry wolf on their parents because everybody has gone overboard with all of this. People are going to jail because of it, and it's not the ones who should be.

Now perhaps this study wasn't done with the intent to criminalize spanking, but studies like this are used as such by those seeking to do so. While I commend them on their efforts to protect children, I just seriously believe they are completely overlooking the consequences of what they're doing. What they're essentially making is a judicial system whereby children make the rules as they now have the power to intimidate and coherse their parents with the threat of jail.
 ohwhynot46

Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 94
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:40:10 PM
[I would like to see the study that shows the relationship between removal of corporal punishment from schools and lower student test scores in the u.s.]

This is an interesting point! Although I don't advocate "spanking" , there is something to be said for the fact that the lack of discipline, fueled by parents who seem to instill in their children a sense of entitlement & the idea that they do not have to respect authority, has lead to our children not being able to read! It is difficult to learn in an environment where others are constantly interrupting, and often actually heckling a teacher.

Okay, maybe this says little about the correlation of IQ and spanking but it speaks volumes about education, and discipline. Spanking is (in my opinion) a means of control, not discipline. I have to assume that there is more to the correlation between spanking & IQ than just the spanking .
 the SoldierByte

Joined: 12/25/2005
Msg: 95
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:43:39 PM

Does this change your mind about spanking your child?

NOPE....
it didn't at the begining of the rant..
and a ranting 94 posts with 238 views later..
my answer is still.. NOPE..!!!
---SoldierByte---
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/29/2009 9:25:14 PM

What about the fear and threat of being put into your room or another room for hours at a time, or having your favorite most treasured toy taken away for days or being told that you could never do -(insert your favorite activity here)- anymore? Do you not think that to certain kids that would have a traumatic impact on thier lives and cause a drop in IQ? Just because a parent doesn't spank thier kids, doesn't mean that there aren't other non-physical disciplines that may cause an IQ drop.


I agree with you. Punishment that creates fear and threats that create fear are methods aimed to control, not teach. Do they "work"? Yeah, I'm sure they do but I always ask "At what ultimate cost?". When I was expecting my son, I read a lot about parenting because I only knew I didn't want to raise my son in the same manner that I was raised. Countless hours of therapy had already demonstrated to me the damage that had been done to me and I could easily see the damage that had been done to my sister. What I found in my reading was there were other ways to teach children that did not require "fear-based" punishments. I employed these methods with my son and they have worked very well. Being human and far from perfect, there was the occasional fear-based control thrown in when I became frustrated but I have always apologized to him when I employed those "useless" (IMO) methods. I discipline my son but I define discipline as teach, not punish.

He has suffered the natural consequences for his choices and I haven't run to defend him when he has made some poor choices with peers/school. I've used those as teaching moments to build him up by showing him a better way...not to whip him for being human and making a mistake.

My second child is another story...she is 4 and she challenges my parenting style sometimes on a daily basis but I have learned over the course of the last two years that if I stick to my parenting principles, negative behaviour is extinguished and replaced with positive behaviour far more quickly. We also tend to have less conflict because she feels that she is being heard. I remind her that I am her mother and I have an important job to do but I need her help...I need her to let me be her mom and to teach her. She has responded very positively to this level of honesty from me. She "chooses" to cooperate with me rather than to challenge me more and more often. She is only with me 50% of the time and the other 50% of the time she is often subjected to corporal punishment....she returns angry and frustrated and it takes sometimes two days to calm her down so she is in a listening/learning state of mind. There is no study in the world that I would use as a parent to guide my parenting style...the best advice I ever received was from my sister when she said to me..

"A lot of people will tell you what you should do with your child. Smile and thank them, then do what you feel is best for your child because nobody knows your child better than you do."
 futureshock

Joined: 5/8/2009
Msg: 97
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 4:28:22 AM


Any halfway decent study controls for variables like making sure the study isn't overlooking things like the intellectual stimulation in the environment, etc.


No they don't, because it is impossible to initially isolate for everything. It may be impossible to ever isolate the single variable because we don't live in labs.


Isolating for everything is very different from isolating those factors likely to influence the outcome of the study in question. Factors affecting cognitive development are well known among researchers. The study details exactly which variables were controlled for.

One of the purposes of peer review is to make sure factors such as these are taken into account. If an important variable known to impact cognitive development were not controlled for, it would have thrown the entire study into question immediately.

Listen, it is obvious why so many of you are trying to refute a hundred years of research findings. It is because most of you have either spanked your children on occasion, or spank your children regularly, and you don't want to think you have done anything to harm your children. I don't blame you.

The vast majority of parents, over 95% in the U.S., for example, spank their children, especially toddlers.
This is one reason why it is so difficult to educate the public about this issue, because so many people have or are currently engaging in this behavior, and they have also been on the receiving end, with no perceived negative results.

However, just because the negative effects aren't obvious, it doesn't mean they aren't there.
 That Guy Him

Joined: 8/5/2009
Msg: 98
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 5:23:27 AM

Listen, it is obvious why so many of you are trying to refute a hundred years of research findings. It is because most of you have either spanked your children on occasion, or spank your children regularly, and you don't want to think you have done anything to harm your children.

Far from it. The only time I've ever even hit my daughter was a few years ago when I was turning around not knowing she was there and my hand accidentally hit her on the side of the head.

I can't bring myself to do it. And even if I could, I can't think of anything my daughter has done to warrant a spanking. But just because I'm not doing it, it doesn't mean I think others are wrong who do it. I'm refuting 100 years of research findings on about 20 years of evidence of children suddenly making the rules. Threatening parents with jail time if they don't get their way. Defying any and all adults under the premise of, "You can't touch me because I'm a minor, so I'm going to do whatever I want."

What's their first taste of accepting responsibility going to be? Sharing a cell with Bubba who don't take, "You can't touch me," for an answer? That sounds like a lot of fun. I bet their anus will appreciate their attitude after that.
 Consigliori

Joined: 1/7/2008
Msg: 99
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 7:18:57 AM

However, just because the negative effects aren't obvious, it doesn't mean they aren't there.


This statement assumes that there are negative effects. But even assuming the truth of the statement, the analysis is incomplete.

If the negative effects are "not obvious" one has to ask the next question: Are the non-obvious effects significant?

To further the inquiry, one also has to ask the opposite questions: Are there positive effects? And are the positive effects obvious or significant?

And finally one has to analyze the issue by a comparative weighing of the positive and negative effects: Is the benefit outweighed by the harm?

As I alluded earlier, the answers to the last question are subjective and value oriented. Therefore there cannot be a universal answer or a universal resolution.
 Rossjackson1985

Joined: 4/7/2009
Msg: 100
view profile
History
Does this change your mind about spanking your child?
Posted: 9/30/2009 7:53:11 AM
any psychological effect is subjective and relative.. just because a handful of people experience something..doesn't mean everyone else does. Infact, spanking is irrelevant in attitude & IQ levels. It may have a chance to change something, but it equally doesn't have a chance either. People just use this kind of garbage in the PC "nanny-state" world we live in.

There are a 101 other reasons (not literally.. figure of speech) that can hinder attitude maturity and IQ potential.. and spanking is near the bottom of each list. Trytaking a step back from the hippy brigade for one moment and ask yourself; does your child read a book weekly or monthly or not at all? if monthly or not at all..bam.. IQ will stay low in comparision to a child that does read weekly or daily perhaps. next question, the family household; does your child get enough attention? no, bam.. attitude.. was your child reared up in an abusive/aggressive household? bam.. more often then not aggressive.

you see.. you can't blame spanking.. you are just making a fool of yourself if you purely think spanking has lowered IQ's and altered attitude problems.
Page 4 of 17 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17
 
Show ALL Forums  > Single Parents  > Does this change your mind about spanking your child?