Ahhh, try a different question, perhaps. "Where do you want to play today?"

Exactly my thought. If you have no destination in mind, you're going no where.

I don't think you can or should BUILD intimacy: I think it's a natural thing that grows out of interaction & relating.

Instead of thinking of trying to build a natural thing like intimacy, think how you can create optimal conditions for it to grow.

To know someone, you have to be not just interested in discovering the other person but open to learning about them rather than measuring them constantly against a scale of what you want them to be

I think it's funny how women expect men to cater to their emotional whims, when that's not really how men are wired.

Reaching back to the bit Hearttune said way back on page 2, about not sharing certain parts of himself because people wouldn't likely get it. Two thoughts, at least I think it'll be two, as I begin to think outloud, lol.

One is the thought that if one chooses not to reveal something there is no possibility for the outcome to ever be any different. Doesn't it, in a way, rob yourself and the other of the possibility of life working out a different way?

And the second thought is - does it matter if they don't get something about you absolutely? Or is it a critical area?

It strikes me that there might be some parts of us that might be inaccessible to another one person. That's sort of in line with the theory that one has several people in one's life because each of them scratches a different itch. (No, I'm not going all poly on you - just thinking there's the friend one has a laugh with and the other friend one calls when there's a problem... that sort of thing). I'm not so certain we need to understand, in great depth, all of the inner workings of the other. Especially if they have some esoteric interests.

Sometimes, perhaps, it is enough that they know it exists in us and understand it is important to us and give us space to scratch that itch. Maybe if they value that space we need, because it sustains us even tho' they can't "get it", it is enough.

Now, of course, I'm alone again after my trip along the world's longest learning curve. What's different now, however, is that I no longer feel compelled to find what I'm looking for in myself "out there", in some other place out there, in something I do out there, in some person I meet out there. In other words, I'm the same idiot about relationships that I always was. I just know the idiot that I am a whole lot better, though I haven't a fvcking clue about how to play the game anymore.

What if everyone you know will always be a capable of surprising you?

The reason I get so irritated with this "me big dumb man, me go in cave now" routine is that open dialogue/communication is THE tool for building intimacy. It's the only way I can get "in". Many men complain that they have no outlets, like women do, for communicating when they need emotional help. You do, you just don't use them--AND using them makes you vulnerable. Many men say that they will show you with non-verbal cues, "actions speak louder than words." Then those same men claim that having sex (an action) doesn't necessarily bring them closer to a woman. So, fixing the sink means "I love you" but fking you doesn't?

No doubt there is more. These are some of the things I came up with. And an important disclaimer - while these things might sound like an ideal of some sort, I miss the mark more times than I care to admit. Yet the idea of doing the work in these areas together with an equally committed yet also flawed partner...as Kenny Chesney would say, "That's the good stuff."

Iconoclast...thank you for asking the question.

I also personally like the idea of not cohabitating. I really like my space. I won't say I'd never do that..maybe someday. But it seems pretty damn easy when you don't. And I think on some level, it should be that way.

I understand where you are coming from -- I used to feel exactly the same way: that no-one would 'get' me. My partner, across the other side of the world, felt the same way: we'd express a thought or opinion and other people would respond like a deer in the headlights, some comment along the lines of "that's deep" or "you feel things too strongly/take things too seriously/have a strange point of view", together with a backing away. All you can do is keep watch. You can't be entirely unique in the way you think about things. There must be someone out there similar enough to get it. You express little bits at a time and watch for the reaction; one day you will surely find someone who really makes sense to you and to whom, you apparently make perfect sense as well.

We used to feel like such aliens...

He was 39 and I was 32 when we found each other on PoF -- and I don't think you should ever give up: we feel very lucky to have met and even more lucky to have met so young. We weren't even actively looking, we thought we'd closed the door on the possibility of a relationship when we started talking -- yet it grew. And if aliens like us can find someone, there is hope for everyone. If someone on the forums appears to think in a similar way to you -- write to them: you never know where it will lead.

However... things can change when you begin to care what a particular person thinks of you. I remember when I was getting to know my partner, gradually, though long many-part emails on PoF, not knowing if something I may have said would make him think I was weird or too intense or too serious or any of the usual labels people apply. Rejection, even on a "I'm not really interested to talk with you any more" level, when it comes from someone whose opinion you've come to value, does have a sting. You can't just say "this is me" and truly not feel vulnerable at all, because there is now the whispered subtext "I hope you still want to talk to me!".

I’ve seen masculine men fall to their knees.

I think it's beautiful to be able to just let go and really feel, that's the risk of love....I would rather love wholeheartedly and experience love for all of what it is, then to selectively choose what my logical mind deems as safe.

What creates safety? Acceptance does. Non judgement does. Being open to explore your thoughts does.

As I think about it, "mental intimacy" is almost impossible without first starting with "emotional intimacy." That sense of excitement that you have being with someone that makes you feel alive, both sexually and in "other ways." By other ways, I mean "socially compatible." Once that happens, the "mental intimacy" thing has a chance to start working, overtime sometimes.

A warrior isn't someone who has no fear (that's a zombie). A warrior is someone rationalizes his own fear to do the "right thing". He does his best to be victorious. At the same time, he accepts that defeat and death is part of his chosen career.

Maybe this is a Don Quixote vision; but at least Don Quixote HAD a vision. Most folks traverse through life without one.

I think it's funny how women expect men to cater to their emotional whims, when that's not really how men are wired.

Actually, understanding a woman's emotional whims, can be used by loving men to establish emotional and mental intimacy.

It doesn't violate a man's wiring, if he does this using his logical talents.

It reinforces her 'wiring' to allow her to reside in her emotional mind.

It's the exchange of understanding for trusting that is at the core of emotional and mental intimacy.

But it requires that each fills the proper role, as seems*normal*'s comment implies.

According to the last 14 women I dated, I'M a fundamental tool.

What if we ACCEPTED that everyone we know is capable of surprising us, would we ever be disapointed?

One is the thought that if one chooses not to reveal something there is no possibility for the outcome to ever be any different. Doesn't it, in a way, rob yourself and the other of the possibility of life working out a different way?

I'm not so certain we need to understand, in great depth, all of the inner workings of the other.

What if we ACCEPTED that everyone we know is capable of surprising us, would we ever be disapointed?

One poster said – early on in a relationship he tends to try to impress - isn't totally honest and after a while - ‘i start to resent the fact that i can't really be myself and things go downhill from there.'
I've often heard the expression 'she makes me a better man' - isn't that a good thing? Why would you resent being the person they want? But it definitely proves the point, you have to be honest, even with yourself.