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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 2:31:33 PM | | Stormwolf, just because we are vaccinated against a disease, doesn't mean we will remain immune if a disease is allowed to be carried from person to person in a non-vaccinated group, not just humans but animals aswell can be carriers. Viruses passed from humans to animals and back acquire genetic mutations that our immune systems have difficulty recognizing and fighting against, example Influenza. Each time a virus is passed on to a new host, possible mutation can occur that can produce resistance to a drug or vaccine, we as a population use as protection from that disease, we are now at risk from that disease that has been changed on a genetic level because it was allowed to remain in the population through unvaccinated persons. Also a person can be become a asymptomatic carrier such as Typhoid Mary, who spread that disease where ever she went, imagine someone like that taking a plane ride and how fast a disease could be spread today. Don't you think it's funny that the people who are deciding not to how have their kids vaccinated are vaccinated themselves which allowed them to growup in a healthier and safer environment without smallpox, polio, mumps and measles. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:06:16 PM | WASHINGTON, October 7, 2009
Could Hepatitis B Vaccine Be Harmful?
In New Research, Vaccinated Monkeys Showed “Significant Delays" in Development of Critical Reflexes Compared to Control Group
CBS News Investigative Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson asked Dr. Andrew Wakefield about the controversy surrounding his original study in 1998 on autistic children and MMR vaccine.
(CBS) In a newly-published study, vaccinated monkeys demonstrated “significant delays in the acquisition of critical survival reflexes" compared to an unvaccinated control group, reports CBS News correspondent Sharyl Attkisson.
It was the first time researchers had time compared vaccinated animals with unvaccinated controls. Researchers vaccinated 13 newborn rhesus macaque monkeys with Hepatitis B vaccine containing a standardized amount of thimerosal - a vaccine preservative thought by some to cause developmental issues. The thimerosal dose matched that given to human babies until the early 2000s. Four monkeys received a saline placebo and three more had no shots at all.
The study found the unvaccinated animals developed normally, while the vaccinated monkeys demonstrated the survival reflex delays. According to one of the lead investigators, Dr. Laura Hewitson of the University of Pittsburgh, “Infants of lower birth weight and gestational age were at greater risk.”
The study, published last week in the scientific journal NeuroToxicology, was not designed to determine whether it was the thimerosal or another component of the vaccine that caused the observed delays.
“We undertook these experiments largely because we were unable to find any safety studies comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated animals,” said another study author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield of Thoughtful House, which provides resources for children with developmental disorders.
Watch: Part one of Attkisson's interview with Dr. Wakefield
Research conducted by Wakefield and his colleagues on a small group of autistic children in 1998 in Great Britain unleashed a firestorm of controversy. The findings were published in the British Journal Lancet. Based on the research, Wakefield recommended that studies be conducted on the safety of administering the three MMR vaccines (measles, mumps and rubella) in one jab. Until such research was done, Wakefield recommended children get the vaccines as three separate shots.
The study became the centerpiece for an ongoing and nasty fight between vaccine safety advocates who embrace Wakefield's research and believe vaccines can be administered in a safer fashion, and public health and government officials who attack Wakefield and believe his ideas threaten international vaccination programs.
Though the FDA and American Academy of Pediatrics have said thimerosal is safe in the doses it has been used in childhood vaccines, in 1999 they recommended that it be removed from vaccines as soon as possible. They said they made that recommendation out of an abundance of caution and because some parents and health professionals disagreed that thimerosal is safe for use in childhood vaccines. Despite that recommendation for removal in 1999, thimerosal remains in most flu shots, and is found in recently-licensed Novel H1N1 (swine flu) vaccines. Smaller amounts of thimerosal also remains in some other vaccines, even those marketed as “preservative-free.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/07/cbsnews_investigates/main5369814.shtml
I'm worn out tonight so I'm not going to address anything tonight. I thought this was interesting though and this below:
Oct. 21, 2009
Swine Flu Cases Overestimated?
CBS News Exclusive: Study Of State Results Finds H1N1 Not As Prevalent As Feared
By Sharyl Attkisson
* Play CBS Video Video CDC Quiet On Swine Flu Stats
After repeated attempts made by CBS News asking the CDC to provide state-by-state data of swine flu testing before they halted individual testing and tracking, Dr. Thomas Frieden, CDC Director was asked directly at a recent news conference.
(CBS) If you've been diagnosed "probable" or "presumed" 2009 H1N1 or "swine flu" in recent months, you may be surprised to know this: odds are you didn’t have H1N1 flu.
In fact, you probably didn’t have flu at all. That's according to state-by-state test results obtained in a three-month-long CBS News investigation.
The ramifications of this finding are important. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Britain's National Health Service, once you have H1N1 flu, you're immune from future outbreaks of the same virus. Those who think they've had H1N1 flu -- but haven't -- might mistakenly presume they're immune. As a result, they might skip taking a vaccine that could help them, and expose themselves to others with H1N1 flu under the mistaken belief they won't catch it. Parents might not keep sick children home from school, mistakenly believing they've already had H1N1 flu.
Why the uncertainty about who has and who hasn't had H1N1 flu?
CBSNews.com report on H1N1
In late July, the CDC abruptly advised states to stop testing for H1N1 flu, and stopped counting individual cases. The rationale given for the CDC guidance to forego testing and tracking individual cases was: why waste resources testing for H1N1 flu when the government has already confirmed there's an epidemic?
Some public health officials privately disagreed with the decision to stop testing and counting, telling CBS News that continued tracking of this new and possibly changing virus was important because H1N1 has a different epidemiology, affects younger people more than seasonal flu and has been shown to have a higher case fatality rate than other flu virus strains.
CBS News learned that the decision to stop counting H1N1 flu cases was made so hastily that states weren't given the opportunity to provide input. Instead, on July 24, the Council for State and Territorial Epidemiologists, CSTE, issued the following notice to state public health officials on behalf of the CDC:
"Attached are the Q&As that will be posted on the CDC website tomorrow explaining why CDC is no longer reporting case counts for novel H1N1. CDC would have liked to have run these by you for input but unfortunately there was not enough time before these needed to be posted (emphasis added)."
When CDC did not provide us with the material, we filed a Freedom of Information request with the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). More than two months later, the request has not been fulfilled. We also asked CDC for state-by-state test results prior to halting of testing and tracking, but CDC was again, initially, unresponsive.
Watch CBS News Videos Online
Video above: A CBS News producer asks the director of the CDC, Dr. Thomas Frieden, for this information at a press conference on Sept. 19.
While we waited for CDC to provide the data, which it eventually did, we asked all 50 states for their statistics on state lab-confirmed H1N1 prior to the halt of individual testing and counting in July. The results reveal a pattern that surprised a number of health care professionals we consulted. The vast majority of cases were negative for H1N1 as well as seasonal flu, despite the fact that many states were specifically testing patients deemed to be most likely to have H1N1 flu, based on symptoms and risk factors, such as travel to Mexico.
(CBS)
It’s unknown what patients who tested negative for flu were actually afflicted with since the illness was not otherwise determined. Health experts say it’s assumed the patients had some sort of cold or upper respiratory infection that is just not influenza.
With most cases diagnosed solely on symptoms and risk factors, the H1N1 flu epidemic may seem worse than it is. For example, on Sept. 22, this alarming headline came from Georgetown University in Washington D.C.: "H1N1 Flu Infects Over 250 Georgetown Students."
H1N1 flu can be deadly and an outbreak of 250 students would be an especially troubling cluster. However, the number of sick students came not from lab-confirmed tests but from "estimates" made by counting "students who went to the Student Health Center with flu symptoms, students who called the H1N1 hotline or the Health Center's doctor-on-call, and students who went to the hospital's emergency room."
Without lab testing, it's impossible to know how many of the students actually had H1N1 flu. But the statistical trend indicates it was likely much fewer than 250.
CDC continues to monitor flu in general and H1N1 through "sentinels," which basically act as spot-checks to detect trends around the nation. But at least one state, California, has found value in tracking H1N1 flu in greater detail.
"What we are doing is much more detailed and expensive than what CDC wants," said Dr. Bela Matyas, California's Acting Chief of Emergency Preparedness and Response. "We're gathering data better to answer how severe is the illness. With CDC's fallback position, there are so many uncertainties with who's being counted, it's hard to know how much we're seeing is due to H1N1 flu rather than a mix of influenza diseases generally. We can tell that apart but they can't."
After our conversation with Dr. Matyas, public affairs officials with the California Department of Public Health emphasized to CBS News that they support CDC policy to stop counting individual cases, maintaining that the state has the resources to gather more specific testing data than the CDC.
Because of the uncertainties, the CDC advises even those who were told they had H1N1 to get vaccinated unless they had lab confirmation. "Persons who are uncertain about how they were diagnosed should get the 2009 H1N1 vaccine."
That's unwelcome news for a Marietta, Georgia mom whose two children were diagnosed with "probable" H1N1 flu over the summer. She hoped that would mean they wouldn't need the hastily developed H1N1 flu vaccine. However, since their cases were never confirmed with lab tests, the CDC advises they get the vaccine. "I wish they had tested and that I knew for sure whether they had it. I'm not anxious to give them an experimental vaccine if they don't need it."
Speaking to CBS' "60 Minutes," CDC Director Dr. Frieden said he has confidence that the vaccine will be safe and effective: "We're confident it will be effective we have every reason to believe that it will be safe."
However, the CDC recommendation for those who had "probable" or "presumed" H1N1 flu to go ahead and get vaccinated anyway means the relatively small proportion of those who actually did have H1N1 flu will be getting the vaccine unnecessarily. This exposes them to rare but significant side effects, such as paralysis from Guillain-Barre syndrome.
It also uses up vaccine, which is said to be in short supply. The CDC was hoping to have shipped 40 million doses by the end of October, but only about 30 million doses will be available this month.
The CDC did not response to questions from CBS News for this report.
Washington Unplugged: H1N1 Cases Exaggerated?
H1N1 Misdiagnoses Could Have Consequences
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/21/cbsnews_investigates/main5404829.shtml?tag=pop | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:42:08 PM |
Stormwolf, just because we are vaccinated against a disease, doesn't mean we will remain immune if a disease is allowed to be carried from person to person in a non-vaccinated group,
HOLD UP! Here is the point you and detractoR like MUNGIEJOE talk out of both sides of your mouth!
You claim the Flu shot shot provides immunity? What does Immunity mean?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Immunity is a biological term that describes a state of having sufficient biological defenses to avoid infection, disease, or other unwanted biological invasion. Immunity involves both specific and non-specific components. The non-specific components act either as barriers or as eliminators of wide range of pathogens irrespective of antigenic specificity. Other components of the immune system adapt themselves to each new disease encountered and are able to generate pathogen-specific immunity.
WHAT EACH SANE PERSON IS SAYING ABOUT THIS BULLSHIT VACCINE:
The HINI vaccine is also different from other vaccines and medications that have
been required by the state in various contexts, such as MMR (measles, mumps, and
rubella),12 diphtheria, polio, and tuberculosis In each of those cases the vaccination or
medication is known to be one hundred per cent effective in preventing the disease and/or treating it, and preventing transmission.
The HINI vaccine, by contrast, is not designed to, nor can it, eradicate the
flu. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:05:49 PM | ^^^^^^^ IS THE ENDS FOR MEANS OF THIS DISSCUSSION!
WE CAME , WE KICKED AZZ, YOU LOSE! PERIOD!
IT'S MORE OVER THAN MC HAMMER! YOU CAN'T TOUCH IT!
I WISH THERE WERE A BIRD SIGN TO THE LEFT OF ME!
IT WOULD BE SOOOO POLITICALLY CORRECT! | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:34:12 PM |
I cant beleive you milked this thing for 10 pages...Freaking incredible! I cant beleive you milked this thing for 10 pages...Freaking incredible!
HOLD IT COWBOY! What is "Freaking incredible is you by self addmission, are MORBIDLY OBESE,
has the nerve to post anything at all about PERSONAL HEALTH!
AS FOR THE MILKING....are you jealous that we took all the MILK? | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:14:05 PM | CBS News Investigative Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson asked Dr. Andrew Wakefield about the controversy surrounding his original study in 1998 on autistic children and MMR vaccine.
Dear... I have no desire to get into a "battle of citations" with you... it will take pages and only make you look foolish because you do not have the scientific or medical background to compete... I will bury you in citations on a 10 to 1 ratio or better...
I will just leave you with this...
Based on a thorough review of clinical and epidemiological studies, neither the mercury-based vaccine preservative thimerosal nor the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine are associated with autism
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/public-health/vaccination-resources/pediatric-vaccination/iom-report-no.shtml
Q3. Does thimerosal cause autism or other neurodevelopmental disorders?
No. The best available science to date has shown that there is no link between vaccines containing thimerosal and autism or other behaviour disorders.
The National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) has reviewed the safety of thimerosal and concluded that the alleged adverse health effect from thimerosal in vaccines has never been substantiated.
International bodies, such as the World Health Organization (WHO), the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (U.S. FDA) and the Institute of Medicine in the U.S., share this opinion.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/q_a_thimerosal-eng.php#3
Now... if you really want me to bury you in citations... I will... but it will be most humiliating as I prove that your statement... "I am no scientist"... was not only true but prophetic... The internet is not your friend in this matter.
HOLD UP! Here is the point you and detractoR like MUNGIEJOE talk out of both sides of your mouth!
Really?... and how is that?... the little bit of b.s. that followed certainly does not demonstrate that...
If you have to rely on wikipedia to understand immunity then you have ZERO clue what you are talking about...
... In fact... this little bit of tripe only proves it...
MMR (measles, mumps, and
rubella),12 diphtheria, polio, and tuberculosis In each of those cases the vaccination or
medication is known to be one hundred per cent effective in preventing the disease and/or treating it, and preventing transmission.
...that little statement is 100% full of sh*t... anyone who would post such utter trash has no business even discussing vaccination much less advocating against it... clearly you do NOT have even the slightest understanding of how vaccination works...
NO vaccine is 100% effective... and vaccines DO NOT prevent transmission... a vaccinated person can still acquire a virus from a non-vaccinated person... they just don't get sick from it... and can still carry a virus long enough to pass it on to another unvaccinated person...
...Eradication does not work by preventing transmission 100%... eradication works by diminishing the number of potential active hosts to such a small number that the virus is no longer able to find enough suitable hosts to survive... it dies from insufficient reproductive opportunities... negative population growth... the virus dies from a lack of suitable hosts faster than it can find new hosts to reproduce in... but when you have unvaccinated hosts in the population the virus can reproduce faster than it dies... positive population growth... and with enough suitable hosts it booms... and an epidemic occurs.
The HINI vaccine, by contrast, is not designed to, nor can it, eradicate the
flu.
At least you got ONE thing right... but you also got it wrong at the same time... and have shown even more of your abject ignorance about infectious disease and vaccination...
Your right... it ISN'T and CAN'T eradicate flu... but it has the potential to minimize THIS strain of swine flu in humans... if it is used in sufficient quantities...
Where you are wrong is that you clearly don't understand flu or any of the other diseases you mentioned... you see... the others are caused by a single virus with no more than 2-3 serotypes... influenza is an ENTIRE FAMILY of viruses... with several species... and each species having several serotypes...
To eradicate 'flu' as you so disingenuously referred to it... you would need DOZENS of different vaccines... all at once... covering multiple species and multiple serotypes...
But the vaccine you are so hystericaly frightened of is intended for a specific serotype of a specific species out of dozens... and NO-ONE is pretending to be talking about eradicating flu other than you... just minimizing swine flu...
Your suggestion that ANYONE is talking about eradicating 'flu' is nothing more than you attempting to inject lies and bullsh*t into the argument because you have ZERO clue as to what you are talking about... NO leg to stand on...
... and the only way for you to argue your position now is to simply "MAKE SH*T UP"... to lie about it... obfuscate... misdirect. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:23:56 PM |
The evidence OVERWHELMING indicates that Thimersol is NOT a factor in autism... and the people who claim it is tend to do so because they are afraid that it might be caused by... mommy and daddy... because that's where the primary causation lies... autism is primarily genetic... it ain't the vaccinations...
Not quite true...children who have autism, have a significantly lower metabolic rate for mercury and other additives within the vaccine. Yes, this is hereditary. But it is also environmentally influenced. (Hence, vaccines...) This has been proven...it involves brain development between the two cortex-es, and the connecting membrane between the two.
Although subjective, one cannot completely discount a parent's observation of their child, after they have received an immunization.
You do know that vaccinations work through NATURAL PROCESSES... the VERY SAME natural processes that allow you to fight disease... don't you?
Yawn...we are talking about the swine flu...skin to skin contact, and droplets...all can be avoided through universal precautions...
Carelessness in the medical field, should be the heart of this discussion...
Not the validity of flu injections...
"My body, my choice"
Or maybe legislative action towards the governing of one's own body...
Just a thought... | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:38:20 PM |
Not quite true...children who have autism, have a significantly lower metabolic rate for mercury and other additives within the vaccine.
This does not in any way diminish or change the FACT that the evidence OVERWHELMINGLY indicates that Thimersol is NOT a factor in autism... That is a FACT and it is indisputable... the OVERWHELMING preponderance of research DOES NOT lead to a conclusion that Thimersol is a factor in causing autism...
Yes, this is hereditary. But it is also environmentally influenced. (Hence, vaccines...)
Not only is it hereditary but it is, as I stated PRIMARILY genetic... and NO, "hence vaccines..." is bullsh*t... and the OVERWHELMING body of evidence establishes that... In fact, there is NO confirmed, reliable evidence that there is ANY causative element in the post-natal environment and very little for causative effects from the pre-natal environment. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:13:41 PM | This does not in any way diminish or change the FACT that the evidence OVERWHELMINGLY indicates that Thimersol is NOT a factor in autism
Thermisol is contained in the vaccine. Fact. Autistic children have a lower threshold for mercury..mostly, due to hereditary factors, this is again...a fact.
It could be coincidental...
the OVERWHELMING preponderance of research DOES NOT lead to a conclusion that Thimersol is a factor in causing autism
I am not going to quote the Autism Association. You would probably disregard such a quote. You would disregard, parental, subjective observation, in order to prove your point.
That is a FACT and it is indisputable
No, it is not. Science is always discovering on its own, without opinion, regardless of what you and I might opine about.
Hey...I freely admit, that I could be wrong...
In fact, there is NO confirmed, reliable evidence that there is ANY causative element in the post-natal environment and very little for causative effects from the pre-natal environment.
You enter the realm, of a proof of what is called "a soft science". The study of behavior and psychology is considered a "soft science". (Red herring by the way, within the context of your direct response.)
It is factual, that persons who have autism are less likely to process mercury...and it happens mostly in boys...due to the information gathered by those who have actually studied autism, and physiological congruences...
Hey, they may not be right. But they do provide overwhelming evidence, in the face, of the questions that are asked.
But the jury is still out...
And I stand by that theory... | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 11:00:39 PM |
Dr. Laura Hewitson of the University of Pittsburgh, “Infants of lower birth weight and gestational age were at greater risk.
Now this is something I've been thinking about and wondering if it's having a negative effect. More & more doctors are deciding that babies are ready to be born and induce labor or do C-sections before a woman goes into labor. Why? Is there a link between this practice and findings of Autism and other problems? I don't know, but I see no reason, other than a fetus in distress, to induce labor. Babies tend to come when they are ready. Anyway, just a thought and sorry for going off topic.
As for lower birth infants, they usually are more likely to have a bad reaction to most things than a normal weight, full term infant.
I grew up when kids all got the mumps, measles and sadly so many with polio. I remember standing in line all the way around the block to get the polio vaccine on a sugar cube, it was a miracle! Not getting measles and chicken pox and such, it's wonderful for children. I don't think people are remembering or even have knowledge of how many chidren were damaged or died from what are now rare because of the vaccines. How quickly we forget history and act a fool. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/23/2009 11:02:51 PM | No, it is not. Science is always discovering on its own, without opinion, regardless of what you and I might opine about.
I'm sorry, but it is a fact, and an indisputable fact at that, that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence DOES NOT lead to a conclusion that Thimerosal is a factor in autism.
Thermisol is contained in the vaccine. Fact. Autistic children have a lower threshold for mercury..mostly, due to hereditary factors, this is again...a fact.
It could be coincidental...
No... as far as mercury, and Thimerosal in particular, is concerned it IS a coincidence... the overwhelming preponderance of evidence does not lead to any other conclusion.
Your statement about science does nothing to change that... neither do a handful of methodologicaly flawed and unreplicable studies... the overwhemling preponderance of evidence does not support it... that IS a fact.
I am not going to quote the Autism Association. You would probably disregard such a quote. You would disregard, parental, subjective observation, in order to prove your point.
Well how about I go you one better...
... Thimerosal contributes
to total mercury levels in the blood,
but there is little direct evidence of health
effects in humans, and expert reviews have
found that available evidence does not support
a causal association between thimerosal-containing
vaccines and autism ...
http://idea.library.drexel.edu/bitstream/1860/2632/1/2006175339.pdf
It is factual, that persons who have autism are less likely to process mercury...and it happens mostly in boys...
...and the overwhelming preponderance of evidence says it is coincidence in relation to autism.
due to the information gathered by those who have actually studied autism, and physiological congruences...
Maybe you want to go back and read the first part of post 212 | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/24/2009 4:12:26 AM | | stormwolf, I was referring to vaccines for rubella, measles. mumps, polio that we get as children and that if people/children continue to be unvaccinate it could still pose a threat to vaccinated individuals since there is a host sourse for the virus. The Influenza reference I used was an example of a virus that can pass from human to animal and back causing mutations and allowing it to change and infect new hosts, I was not saying that H1N1 was a cure for the Flu, read all my comments please. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/24/2009 6:16:14 AM |
No... as far as mercury, and Thimerosal in particular, is concerned it IS a coincidence... the overwhelming preponderance of evidence does not lead to any other conclusion.
COINCIDENCE????? How scientific! | |
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Posted: 10/24/2009 10:26:56 AM | | I'm just curious has anyone heard of any research involving cummulative mercury/other toxins in parents that are stored in the body that could cause the low tolerance of mercury in autistic children. I've recently watched a documentary about environmantal pollution and they were taking blood samples from random people on the street and testing the levels of metals/toxins, it was startling how many toxins were detected even thou in minimal amounts. Could this predispose a child to be more sensitive to mercury/toxins and possible be a reason for the increase in autism cases, I think it is an interesting question. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/24/2009 11:14:09 AM |
COINCIDENCE????? How scientific!
Yes... it IS scientific... VERY scientific...
...That is the way correlation and the question of causation works... if a thing or event is merely correlative without a causal connection in either direction then it is "coincidental"... that means the co-occurence is an artifact of random chance (a coincidental co-occurence)...
...But, if you actually were a Graduate-trained healthcare PROFESSIONAL you would know that... it's how the effectiveness of medical procedures AND the potential for undesirable side-effects are determined... it's how outcomes are measured relative to treatments applied... it's how they KNOW if a procedure or treatment ACTUALLY provides a reliable positive benefit... it is fundamental to effective medicine and anathema to quackery...
...not that I'm expecting you to understand any of that as I suspect that the only "training" you have is in quackery, if that even... | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:14:14 PM |
I'm just curious has anyone heard of any research involving cummulative mercury/other toxins in parents that are stored in the body that could cause the low tolerance of mercury in autistic children.
There isn't evidence that maternal loads of heavy metals in humans have a negative impact on heavy metal tolerance in thier off-spring. The impact of maternal loads appears to be restricted to acute toxicity from excessively-high loadings
Plant and animal studies indicate that maternal heavy metal loads actual increase the off-spring's ability to tolerate heavy metals, in other words, the off-spring are LESS sensitive to the toxic effects rather than more sensitive.
Could this predispose a child to be more sensitive to mercury/toxins and possible be a reason for the increase in autism cases, I think it is an interesting question.
It is but the issue remains that, if this sensitivity is an issue then the relationship between thimerosal and autism would show reliably in the data, and it doesn't. The same is true for mercury in general.
It's also relevant that the mercury in thimerosal occurs as ethylmercury in the body, which hasn't shown a significant toxicity, doesn't measurably bioaccumulate and is typically 'shed' in a matter of days. If there is an issue with sensitivity to mercury, it isn't likely to involve ethylmercury and it isn't likely to be causative, but rather, comorbid (as in, just one more problem on top of the autism). | |
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Posted: 10/24/2009 12:47:06 PM | | Right on!! My son was given so many shots when he was six that he ended up with , not only ADHD, but also a mild form of autism called Aspergers! (thanks for the mercury, boys) Tell them you'll happily lose your job and keep your health! | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:56:35 PM | | By the way, to all of the other non-scientists claiming that those without vaccinations are harmful to you... you can still carry it, it just doesn't affect you anymore. So... the restaurant person who was forced to get the vaccine for hep B can still carry and pass it to the rest of us. The pharmaceutical companies really have got it made don't they? My worry with this new shot is the fact that they were forced to come up with a vaccine so quickly that it infact won't do what it says it will. If they used a prior form of swine flu in order to make it, it very well be that it won't work on this strain, because it is different, not to mention the way that we now store such things has changed dramatically due to growth in the area of technology and chryostasis. Upon looking at the cell, it isn't the same, but it acts in a similar manner, hence the name. If you got the shot, you might be protected, but you also might not... if it does work, then you are protected from those of us who choose not to take it. It will run itself out like all diseases do. | |
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Posted: 10/24/2009 12:58:23 PM | | Oh, and mungojo... I don't have ADHD or Aspergers, neither does my ex or anyone in our families... diabetes, yes, but ADHD or any form of autism? NOPE.. so there goes your theory about it being families passing it genetically. | |
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Posted: 10/24/2009 1:07:43 PM | Could this predispose a child to be more sensitive to mercury/toxins and possible be a reason for the increase in autism cases, I think it is an interesting question.
I almost forgot... the "increase" in autism cases, due to an increase in real prevalence, is by no means an established fact.
The single biggest reason for an apparent increase is due to changes made in the labeling criteria. Back in the day, we only had one type of autism, infantile/childhood autism. In the 80's Asperger's was recognized as a distinctly less severe sub-type and labeled as 'autism, asperger's type'. There is little disagreement on Asperger's as being autism with much milder symptomology. An experienced individual could 'line up' a group of autistic kids, from most severe to Asperger's and you would be able to actually observe the progression of severity of symptomology from worst to least, with Asperger's showing the least severe symptoms. The inclusion of Asperger's increased the prevalence rate for autism.
A few years later the label of 'autism spectrum disorder' was created and included a great many kids who did not meet the criteria for 'classic' autism or Asperger's but had some symptomology consistent with autism (PDD-NOS). This hugely expanded the prevalence rate, not because there were necessarily more autistic kids, but because the label was expanded to include large numbers of kids who would not otherwise have been labeled autistic. As a matter of common use, all these kids are now typically referred to as autistic.
It is still possible that there has been a small overall increase in the prevalence of autism, irrespective of this 're-labelling', but it is not the huge increase that the newly defined category of ASD makes it appear to be. The 'epidemic' size of the increase is largely due to the changes in labelling criteria.
Oh, and mungojo... I don't have ADHD or Aspergers, neither does my ex or anyone in our families... diabetes, yes, but ADHD or any form of autism? NOPE.. so there goes your theory about it being families passing it genetically.
Dear... your personal experience does nothing to change the fact that autism has been proven to be largely genetic in nature. The science is sound and your illogical, "not in my family it isn't" argument doesn't change that.
And are you SURE it has nothing to do with you? Did you know that maternal diabetes is a known risk factor for autism?
I'm not trying to be mean here but this absolute denial that is so common among parents of autistic kids does the kids NO good at all and often makes matters worse for the kids. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/24/2009 8:36:54 PM | @mungojoe
Have I ever told you, how hot I think geeky guys are?
Back to topic...
I'm sorry, but it is a fact, and an indisputable fact at that, that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence DOES NOT lead to a conclusion that Thimerosal is a factor in autism.
I'm sorry, but it is a fact, and an indisputable fact at that, that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence MAY or MAY NOT lead to a conclusion, that thimersol is a factor in autism.
The above statement, is a true statement. The cause of autism is still unknown. This is a fact. So one cannot rule out that, that the vaccines are a contributing factor in the cause of autism. The overwhelming evidence that you are pushing to be blindly accepted as fact, is a fallacy, since it cannot be proven true.
Welcome, confirmation bias.
I will leave mine at the door if you will. But the end result will be, we simply don't know. To claim that we do is an argument of statistics and speculative evidence, which could be proven either way. (Depending on whose research, and what source).
I am having a lot of fun, in this debate...
Your statement about science does nothing to change that...
It does have its purpose...
neither do a handful of methodologicaly flawed
Let me break it down for ya.
We currently lack the tools, and might not be asking the right questions, in order for a scientifically true statement to be provided...
and unreplicable studies...
In order to replicate the exact studies, one would have to set up a certain criteria, and undergo specific experimentation, in order to provide an absolute, conclusive, true statement.
I seriously doubt, that there will be pregnant women lining up at the door, volunteering their bodies and the health of their babies, in order to prove/disprove the proposed conclusion...
However, there is an embark of a major study, in the wake of society's concern with the possibility, of an escalation of autism...
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/153229.php
Maybe you want to go back and read the first part of post 212
Maybe you would like to go back and discuss the topic, which is essentially whether or not the government has the right, to mandate, what we put into our own bodies, as a recourse for an anticipated epidemic...
I think it should not be legislatively mandated... | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/24/2009 11:09:10 PM | I'm sorry, but it is a fact, and an indisputable fact at that, that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence MAY or MAY NOT lead to a conclusion, that thimersol is a factor in autism.
The above statement, is a true statement. The cause of autism is still unknown. This is a fact. So one cannot rule out that, that the vaccines are a contributing factor in the cause of autism. The overwhelming evidence that you are pushing to be blindly accepted as fact, is a fallacy, since it cannot be proven true.
The statement is disingenuous at best... science rarely considers anything to be 100% proven beyond any question and typically acknowledges that there are other, albeit unlikely, alternatives... it is all determined on the basis of a balance of probabilities...
... And the overwhelming balance of probabilities based on observation... in otherwords the overwhelming preponderance of evidence... says that thimerosal is not connected to autism... the likelihood of the converse being true was slim to begin with and is becoming slimmer all the time...
You are right... the exact cause of autism is still undetermined... however... we do have a better handle on which factors are unlikely to constitute a causative factor... and which are highly unlikely...
You speak of it as if it is an equally likely prospect... or even a likely prospect period...yet it is neither of those things...
... One can argue the slim probabilities until the cows come home... but in the end... as in all science... the overwhelming balance of probabilities based on observation, the balance of the evidence, is the only proof we have for anything... and typically leads in the right direction...
... Your argument is rapidly becoming an "appeal to probability" fallacy.
Maybe you would like to go back and discuss the topic...
I am... I refer you to the OP...
I have been a long time avocate Against
Flu shots because I know for a fact...they do not work and the long term effects
from the POSION in these shots will do more harm than good. Here is a list
of what all Flu shots contain:
....
9) THIMEROSAL (MERCURY) - a neurotoxin linked to psychological, neurological & immunological problems. Nervous system damage, kidney disease, birth defects, dental problems, mood swings, mental changes, hallucinations, memory loss, nerve damage and inability to concentrate can occur. Symptoms also include tremors, loss of dermal sensitivity, slurred speech and, in rare cases, even death and paralysis. This additive alone was the catalyst for another recent Class Action Lawsuit organized by mothers of children born with Autism & the many related behavioral disorders associated with it. Autism is now occurring at levels never seen before in history, 1 in 67. The average used to be 1 in 20,000. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/25/2009 6:05:56 AM |
.not that I'm expecting you to understand any of that as I suspect that the only "training" you have is in quackery, if that even...
Quackery in your opinion, is anyone who believes there are alternatives
to conventional medicine. Your reference to my training, doesn't deserve
a response. However, I question your motive! As I suspect, your ignorance to
to info provided, along with your COINSIDENCE stance and "quackery"
shouts from your pulpit, you appear to be none other than another
Whore from the big Pharma! | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/25/2009 9:37:57 AM |
However, I question your motive! As I suspect, your ignorance to
to info provided, along with your COINSIDENCE stance and "quackery"
shouts from your pulpit, you appear to be none other than another
Whore from the big Pharma!
Do you mean as opposed to preying on peoples' naivete, desperation and fears with snake-oil... rattles and chicken bones... "water memory" transmitted over the internet...?
Quackery in your opinion, is anyone who believes there are alternatives
to conventional medicine.
Not quite...
... my definition of quackery is people who spout uneducated crap about things they obviously know nothing about... those who pretend to be trained health professionals or misuse thier qualifications to prey on the naivete, desperation and fears of others to foist half-truths, exaggerations and out-right falsehoods... people who spread misinformation like that from the OP I have debunked here... | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/25/2009 10:56:38 AM | The statement is disingenuous at best.
Pray tell, how is this statement unworthy or deceptive, when you have pretty much made my argument , in your qualifying statement:
science rarely considers anything to be 100% proven beyond any question and typically acknowledges that there are other, albeit unlikely, alternatives... it is all determined on the basis of a balance of probabilities...
Why, oh, why, do all of the hot, intelligent guys live in friggin' Canada? :cry:
... And the overwhelming balance of probabilities based on observation... in otherwords the overwhelming preponderance of evidence... says that thimerosal is not connected to autism...
You are dismissing, the impact of metabolic waste on the central nervous system. I suspect that the underlying cause of autism will be found in a dysfunction of the endocrine system. Which could lead one to the hypothesis, that the study of nature (hereditary function of the metabolism) and nurture (environmental impact on the endocrine and central nervous system...such as vaccines...amongst other, very important indicators) might result, in a conclusive determination of the cause of autism.
we do have a better handle on which factors are unlikely to constitute a causative factor... and which are highly unlikely...
You are dismissing without evidence, to support your claim...I would like to see this evidence that you are referring to, since your source of evidence and my source of evidence are still in debate, and the "overwhelming preponderance of evidence" is based upon a confirmation bias, in which the jury is still out...
If one has a genetic predisposition to an insufficient thimerosal threshold, then introducing thimerosal to the compromised constitution will result in negative consequences to the biochemistry. Just like any overdose of a poisonous element...
You speak of it as if it is an equally likely prospect... or even a likely prospect period...yet it is neither of those things...
Again, your sources and my sources disagree...when you poison the body, the body reacts. Mercury is a poison, that affects the brain. Introducing a poison to a system which cannot handle it, (infantile, genetically compromised body) can result in debilitating affects. While such an infusion might be "safe" (I use that term loosely) for a healthy system, in a weakened one the same dose may be an overdose, and therefore toxic.
One can argue the slim probabilities until the cows come home... but in the end... as in all science... the overwhelming balance of probabilities based on observation, the balance of the evidence, is the only proof we have for anything... and typically leads in the right direction
I couldn't agree more. That is why this study:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/153229.php
will be pivotal, in autism research...
Back to swine flu...
Two words...Universal Precautions, and it should not be legislatively mandated, as that would be an imposition on fundamental rights... | |
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