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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:42:49 AM | http://www.jeffreywarber.com/hc%20pages/fluscam2.html#anchor3
Do you have a reputable source? CDC, NIH, WebMD, AMA, etc. ?
Your 'right' as an individual are trumped by the rights of society. You're required to take many vaccines to be a healthcare worker. Take the flu shot, or quit. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:46:28 AM | | OP, it's the same in IL. At least in Chicago. All health care workers at most of the hospitals around here, I know, must get this vaccine or risk losing their jobs. IL is a "right-to-work" state however, even for healthcare providers. Therefore, I guess there's no real reason the employer cannot let the employee go for refusing what amounts to a direct order which was given in fact with the express warning that employment may be terminated if you don't comply. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:50:12 AM | I still say there will be loopholes and waivers for this program before too long. God bless the Constitution of the United States and all. Some people in the health care profession will be able to argue against this shot mandate on a religious basis or for health reasons. Yes, health reasons. Some people are highly allergic to the ingredients in the shot. Will the healthcare profession mandating the shot to keep a job cover the medical expenses if you get the shot to keep your job and then end up hospitalized from a severe allergic reaction to the shot?
I also have to wonder about the safety of some of the more recent flu vaccines to hit the market. Most long-time, accepted vaccines out there were in test and development stages for YEARS before being available to the masses. Same w/ many of the medications on the market. But the H1N1 vaccine is available after just a few months?
No, I am not against vaccines in general, I think many vaccines have done a lot of good for the mass public, but I do have to wonder if we as a society have become so reliant on the word "vaccine" as synomous w/ the word "safe".
I agree it is a person's choice to get the shot and keep their job or accept the consequences. As with any situation, there are always shades of gray. For some people the choices aren't really that great to choose from.
You also have to wonder if down the line they will start mandating other professions besides healthcare have the vaccine or lose their job. Food service, retail, public transport, etc. After all they all deal w/ the public too. Or are we going to start fining individuals that are sick w/ something contagious and choose to go out into public places and spread those illnesses?
I think it is less about one type of vaccine and more about where to draw the line. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:57:28 AM | The 10th Amendment to the Constitution does NOT give you the power to make this requirement of the citizens of this country, nor to impose punishment should a person refuse to cooperate
^^ We're not governed here strictly by the Constitution. Although laws are (generally) held to a standard of Constitutionality, there are whole bodies of other laws which have sprung up over the years since then, as the country and the times have drastically changed (at least in most demographics and in the minds of most Americans....) since the late 18th century. If those men who wrote it could have even fully understood the concept of an H1N1 viral outbreak back then, or the concept of a vaccine consisting of a dead form of said virus, or a CDC, or an FDA, or a country the size of what this one has become full of this many varied types of people from all over the world carrying all different sorts of viruses, and so on, then how can we say for sure what exactly they would have thought about immunizing all the healthcare workers in large hospitals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
"Forced participation or commandeering
The Supreme Court rarely declares laws unconstitutional for violating the Tenth Amendment. In the modern era, the Court has only done so where the federal government compels the states to enforce federal statutes. In 1992, in New York v. United States, 505 U.S. 144 (1992), for only the second time in 55 years, the Supreme Court invalidated a portion of a federal law for violating the Tenth Amendment. The case challenged a portion of the Low-Level Radioactive Waste Policy Amendments Act of 1985. The act provided three incentives for states to comply with statutory obligations to provide for the disposal of low-level radioactive waste. The first two incentives were monetary. The third, which was challenged in the case, obliged states to take title to any waste within their borders that was not disposed of prior to January 1, 1996, and made each state liable for all damages directly related to the waste. The Court, in a 6–3 decision, ruled that the imposition of that obligation on the states violated the Tenth Amendment...
Commerce clause
According to the Tenth Amendment, the government of the United States has the power to regulate only matters delegated to it by the Constitution. Other powers are reserved to the states, or to the people (and even the states cannot alienate some of these)..."
^^^ But even if this were thought to be one of those things which the "states cannot alienate", the fact remains that it is technically not compulsory. No one is taking away your life or liberty (or "pursuit of happiness") if you refuse the vaccine. Simply your employer is mandating it , at the risk of losing that job. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:16:48 AM | "Or are we going to start fining individuals that are sick w/ something contagious and choose to go out into public places and spread those illnesses? "
In cases of TB, a patient will be taken into custody by court order if they refuse to take medication. If an HIV + person knowingly has unprotected sex, they can be charged with a crime and server prison time. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:18:12 AM |
No, I am not against vaccines in general, I think many vaccines have done a lot of good for the mass public, but I do have to wonder if we as a society have become so reliant on the word "vaccine" as synomous w/ the word "safe".
Good point! Please let me explain something here. I have an allergy
to eggs, so by the same laws that invoked this Mandate, I am exempt. However,
I will stand with my co-workers who are against this mandate. What further incited
me was the lowest of moral standards, I accompanied a co-worker to recieve her Flu shot.
SHE HAD TO SIGN A WAVER OF CONSENT, STATETING THAT SHE WAS
VOLUNTARY CONSENTING TO THIS VACCINE OF HER OWN FREE WILL?????
We both laughed as she ripped up the consent form and said, I'm getting an Attorney!
Don't believe for a moment that the Drug companys are not making a HUGE fortune
from this deceptive act postured as a good gesture. It sickens me that if any one of
you suffer any negative effects from this shot, even die from it, you cannot sue the drug company! How was such an unprecidented act allowed to happen???
GREED and plenty of underhanded payoffs has to brought up as a possibility!
It it my sincere hope that the Government will reverse this law as "Unconstitutional"
after they have scared as many people as possible into taking this poison. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:27:04 AM |
It it my sincere hope that the Government will reverse this law as "Unconstitutional"
after they have scared as many people as possible into taking this poison.
OK, so, the state of New York has decided that in order to work in the health care field, you have to have a flu shot vaccine.
Your argument is that they are forcing you to take a vaccine you don't agree with.
Here is the problem. THEY ARE NOT FORCING YOU TO TAKE A VACCINE!!!!!!!!
You still have a choice in the matter. The question is are you willing to accept those consequences?
Dr. Martin Luther King had this concept of an unjust law is no law, and you are free to break an unjust law, as long as you accept the consequences for not following it.
You feel that requiring the flu vaccine for health care workers is not just? Fine, don't get the vaccine. But then accept the consequences of not getting the vaccine, which means you can't practice medicine.
You know, the government also has regulations against me putting cyanide or weapons grade uranium in my body as well. Does that mean that is unconstitutional as well? | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:42:30 AM | The overall public good is served best by your voluntary acceptance of a slight risk. You can choose to leave your employment situation if the policy goes against your self-interest. It's your body and your choice. The decision to require vaccination came from looking at the larger picture estimating risks to populations served by health care workers in addition to the health care workforce. The calculation is that having all health care workers vaccinated will reduce the rate of infection in the population they serve. The idea is to set policy to promote the most good for the most people and in that sense the very slight risk of vaccination is outweighed by the much greater threat of pandemic mortality.
If you had the flu before without great suffering, then the flu that you got and wasn't much of a bother was not the same flu as the kind that killed millions of people. There are different kinds of flu and new ones evolving. The danger that is being addressed by precautions such as this mandatory vaccination is the danger of a lethal pandemic. It's a hard decision to abide from the perspective of your own health, assuming a very small flu risk and a high vaccination risk. But when you assume there to be a much greater flu risk and only a slight vaccination risk, and then consider the general welfare of the population overall, it's easier to see this in a way in which the policy makes good sense. Choose to accept a slight risk so that you can be helpful in case of a very great need. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 9:36:38 AM | The overall public good is served best by your voluntary acceptance of a slight risk. You can choose to leave your employment situation if the policy goes against your self-interest. It's your body and your choice. The decision to require vaccination came from looking at the larger picture estimating risks to populations served by health care workers in addition to the health care workforce.
If that was indeed the case I would agree with you! However, it is apparent
that the above gesture is NOT the case. The hospitals I've worked in were less
than 20% compliant with employees voluntary taking the Flu shots. The majority
of us not taking the flu shot, never missed a day of work. The majority of people who did take the shot , were sick for two weeks. Bizzare but true.
I also respectfully disagree with your assumption that " The decision to require
vaccination came from looking at the larger picture estimating risks to populations served by healthcare workers." I truly feel it's a smoke screen for Drug companys to
line their fat pockets....again! | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 11:07:59 AM | It is your body and your choice. But you can't decline the shot and keep your job. Pick.
We ALL of us have "requirements" at jobs, our positions require certain training, experience, or degrees. I have undergone physicals, had criminal background checks, FBI clearance, been fingerprinted (three times, for different positions over 20 years)...and yes here in my office, "direct service" workers are required to have certain vaccinations. I worked in accounts payable at one point in time - they had random drug testing. I can understand that if you drive a bus...but someone in an office doing the books? BUT - I did take the test, because it was a condition of my employment. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 11:20:30 AM | There is a significant difference between what you must do to obtain employment, conditions made known to you at the time of employment, and the employers ability to change those conditions without your input or consent.
We're considered to be an economic downturn- and everyone seems to think that leaving a job is no biggie. Health care is generally a career that requires training, formal education. Why should the OP have to throw away all he's invested? Would we be saying "then quit" if his employer mandated that he wear a pink jumpsuit everyday to work?
The fact is, his personal security is being severely affected on the assumption that it's necessary, with little proof to back up the necessity. I don't think this would ever fly in Cda, but our rules are little different. Maybe OP you should quit and move to Cda where we're a little more receptive to privacy libery and security respect (so long as you don't have firearms...)
To contrast the abortion debate, why not give the woman the only options of protect yourself from sex, or don't have sex? We've created a third option (abortion), so why should the op not get a third option?
And you can't compare the polio vaccine and how it was created to the way vaccines are made and marketed today. There's a reason people are starting to refer to "health care" as the "sickness industry." | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:34:58 PM |
It is your body and your choice. But you can't decline the shot and keep your job. Pick.
Basically that what it comes down to. I have meet "requirements"
20 some odd years ago. I passed med school, sat and passed my boards.
I have passed drug tests, background checks, annual TB testing
and the required vaccines to practice medicine. However, to tell me now
that I have to inject something in my body that may harm me and have to
sign a consent form that states "I'm doing it on my own free will" is something
I believe I can challenge in a court of Law and Win. I have multiple medical
licenses to practice in States that don't require a mandate of the flu shot.
However, I am not alone in this and many of my co-workers will challenge this
after speaking with legal counsil, we truly believe we will win! It's just
hard to fathom that in 2009, my freedom of choice is taxed in the form
of "do it or lose your job?" From the Land of the Free and home of the brave? | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:49:11 PM | | But that's the thing about jobs - when you get one, no one guarantees that it is a RIGHT to keep it...requirements change and people need to meet those requirements. Things constantly change in the office where I work, and there are legal mandates, etc., that we have to deal with. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:55:42 PM | Seriously, this whole thing makes me think of petulant children stomping their feet and making unreasonable demands for dinner/naptime/whatever cause strikes them at the time. This is why people are opposed to unions… it’s no longer a question of doing an honest day’s work for an honest day’s pay or complying with the status quo to keep your job, it’s now a power struggle where the employees are ranting and raving like lunatics.
I’ve worked in both the public and private sectors and by far I prefer the private as there is a higher degree of accountability by the staff. Riding on someone else’s coat-tails is unheard of without the protection of unions… if I refuse to comply with the dynamic scope of my job, it’s simple… I’m terminated from my employment. Conversely, I work hard, do a decent job and I’m recompensed appropriately by my employer… it’s a relationship that synchronizes quite nicely. I have an obligation to them, they have an obligation to me… we both meet in the middle rather than whining or threatening to litigate.
Your body, your choice… their place of employment, your choice to leave. Get off your high horse and get the shot or get out and pound the pavement for another job... its simple as that. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:36:24 PM | Love this post, if you are sheep follow and do as you are told... This has nothing to do with going away on holiday? This is someones life, job...
What will they demand next, oh you are now 21, so you have to be a guineapig and have this... Or you will be locked up!!
Ummm, the governement should learn to listen to the people not the people listen to them...
Brilliant post, love every ones different views...
Cherie xx
PS was this inforce when you started the job??? May be a point??? If you had gone into a job knowing what was there..... | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:44:22 PM | | Interestingly I read in today's newspaper that epidemiologists in NY and other cities "who were awash in swine flu last spring are detecting very little evidence of a resurgence." This is because the people's immune systems were already exposed and their natural defense mechanisms have developed immunity which has kept it from spreading. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:47:08 PM | | The only issue I can agree with the OP on is that, he is required to sign a form stating he willingly agrees to be innoculated. Thats just plain wrong . If an employer threatens ones' job, that is coercion. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:49:00 PM |
Your body, your choice… their place of employment, your choice to leave. Get off your high horse and get the shot or get out and pound the pavement for another job... its simple as that.
Bollocks.
Would you have told that to a woman 50 years ago who lost her job because she was pregnant?
People fought for an equitable workplace where rights were respected. The workplace changed to accomodate those people, and those accomodations have become laws.
Seems to me that's basically all this guy is doing.
Just because the workplace in its present state suits you, doesn't mean it suits everybody.
Besides, this thread is veering away from the original question.
Can an employer tell someone what to do with their body in order for them to keep their job? | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:53:33 PM | Every health professional in North America knows what happened in Britain and what happened in Australia. So either you're not a health professional, or you're a remarkably ill informed one. Weak response! Once again where are your facts, your stats?? Any Hospital that had a 40% ratio of people out would have to close. It would not be a strecth to say even 20% not showing up for work would also have to close.
Let's take one more stab at explaining this...
This is NOT an "all at one time" statistic, it is a cumulative number.
What it means is that a TOTAL of 40% were absent due to the same illness over the ENTIRE COURSE of the "flu season".
In other words, by way of illustrative example, in the first month 5% (example, not real number) were off, the next month a DIFFERENT 5% were off, and the next month and the next month. This means, as a CUMULATIVE statistic, that 20% of the workers were off due to this illness over a 4 month period, NOT 20% all at one time. If the SAME 5% were off each month, the cumulative statistic would be 5% of workers (and 20% of the shifts required) were off, but it isn't the SAME 5% each every month, it is a DIFFERENT 5% each time.
That you are unable to comprehend this simple concept leaves me with great doubts about your ability to even begin to understand any element of even basic research much less make adequate use of it to support your position (and your statements about Alzheimer's and aluminum only further support my conclusion given that the relationship at this point is no more than correlation, NO causation has yet been established. It is still "up in the air" as to whether the aluminum levels are a cause, a sign, or a little of both). | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:57:41 PM | You're right, you shouldn't have to be forced to inject anything into your body. But should the taxpayers of your community be forced to pay for your sick time when you get ill? Should your patients have to suffer because you're not at work, but home sick?
The flu vaccine causing illness isn't nearly as sound an argument as some advocates would like to believe.
I hope you don't lose your job over this but I do respect you standing your ground for something you believe in. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 2:50:21 PM | Larry King said on TV recently he has had a flu shot every year for over 20 years and he has neither kidney damage, mad cow disease, mercury poisoning, or any of the other diseases you mention.
I think the swine flu shot probably won't harm you one bit and I know for a fact that you risk death if you catch swine flu. I plan on getting one if I can.
You have the right to say no to a shot.
Your employer has the right to fire you since, as a healthcare worker, you need
to be immune to the swine flu so you can safely work with the public if an epidemic occurs..
So find another job.
They have given a whole lot of kids the vaccine in the form of a nasal inhalent already in the U.S. Not one bad side effect has been reported. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 3:21:18 PM | It could be worse ~ I'd gladly take a shot. If I was told I had to get a sigmoid or colonoscopy or have to do hemoccult testing ~ that would be the pits
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 3:58:36 PM |
Don't believe for a moment that the Drug companys are not making a HUGE fortune
I was hoping that someone besides myself would recognize this fact. I said it before and i'll say it again...does nobody see the similarities between this "Flu Pandemic" and the "Anthrax Scare" just after 9/11 ? Wake up !! Who do you think made money off of those 10 or 12 cases of anthrax ? Remember ? Sure you member...Cipro anybody ? Oh boy we "needed" millions of doses of Cipro ...remember ?? Turns out the "Anthax Scare" was just a bunch of crap...didn't matter, Bayer made millions of dollars. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/8/2009 3:59:10 PM | | hi.. OP I completely support your convictions ... I will suggest praying to God for His Help on this one... putting poison in our body is against Gods Will for us so you will be blessed for your faith and obedience... blessed in ways that will be worth losing a job over but that is a matter of personal choice and conviction to have that much faith.... on a spiritual note I believe that every right being stripped away from us now is just a precursor to the day when they will try to force a sunday law on us... blessings for health and strength | |
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