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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 1:53:00 PM | | Let's see dolf, without the shot I get the flu at least once a year and end up in the hospital, so far nobody has had to wipe my ass but since you hate your job so much leaving won't be that big a deal for you, now when I get the shot, so far, I don't get the flu. Amazing how that works. Your understanding of vaccines is hilarious considering you work in the health field, but no worries, you are not being forced to get the shot you can always walk away, your choice. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 2:05:44 PM |
Your understanding of vaccines is hilarious considering you work in the health field, but no worries, you are not being forced to get the shot you can always walk away, your choice.
I disagree. I know many posters have put forth the supposition of "choice", however I feel it is a form of economic blackmail, imposed by legislature. It reduces the "right", to govern one's body, which would imply, that one's own body, is the property of the state.
Totally disagree with that concept. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 2:27:37 PM |
I know many posters have put forth the supposition of "choice", however I feel it is a form of economic blackmail, imposed by legislature. It reduces the "right", to govern one's body, which would imply, that one's own body, is the property of the state. No... YOU CHOOSE to alienate that 'right' (and sometimes other rights) when YOU CHOOSE to work in a field where the full exercise of that right puts the well-being of others at undue and preventable risk.
The statement is tantamount to saying "it's economic blackmail if I can't attend my job when I am an active but asymptomatic carrier of TB" or "it's economic blackmail when my employer supresses my free speech under threat of dismissal just because I'm gratuitously bad mouthing his business and costing him clients".
Working in health care brings certain inherent risks both from patient to worker and worker to patient. I guarantee you that the vast majority of health care workers would raise holy hell if they were required to work with patients with known communicable diseases without being provided necessary safeguards (even though the safeguards may alienate the same 'rights' of the patients) yet some seem to think that they have no obligation to take similar safeguards with respect to the hazards they may pose to patients. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 3:29:10 PM |
ow when I get the shot, so far, I don't get the flu. Amazing how that works.
Here's something even MORE amazing......when i DON'T get the flu shot i Don't get the flu!! How's about that. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 3:45:44 PM | Thank you mungojoe! I have been pining for a good scrap!
I am going to address your comments from three different perspectives.
No... YOU CHOOSE to alienate that 'right' (and sometimes other rights) when YOU CHOOSE to work in a field where the full exercise of that right puts the well-being of others at undue and preventable risk.
1. Nowhere, in any shape or form, should the right to govern one's own body be alienated. This actually negates choice, rather than support it.
2. The Op chose to work in a healthcare profession, however the law changed after he had already established himself as a healthcare professional.
3. Your refutation falls under the line of ethics. The Op will be exposing himself to certain harm, if his metabolism cannot process the mercury. Certain risk and probable risk are two separate things. This is a very gray area, since it falls under personal choice, and again, I believe that the personal right govern one's own body should not be superseded by legislation.
Okay, with this refutation, I am going to go with four...at the first sign of illness, he could always stay at home until he is recovered. However, there is strong pressure from the medical community to take tylenol and still go to work, since with "said" absence will impose upon "said" facility, a shortage of healthcare professionals and possible negligent care.
The statement is tantamount to saying "it's economic blackmail if I can't attend my job when I am an active but asymptomatic carrier of TB" or "it's economic blackmail when my employer supresses my free speech under threat of dismissal just because I'm gratuitously bad mouthing his business and costing him clients".
This is a strawman argument.
In order for the Op to keep his job, thus ensuring financial security, he must surrender his bodily rights. That is my refutation with the premise that has so far, been posted.
Working in health care brings certain inherent risks both from patient to worker and worker to patient.
Agreed.
I guarantee you that the vast majority of health care workers would raise holy hell if they were required to work with patients with known communicable diseases without being provided necessary safeguards (even though the safeguards may alienate the same 'rights' of the patients) yet some seem to think that they have no obligation to take similar safeguards with respect to the hazards they may pose to patients.
If the Op's contagion was ever in question, he could always use the same precautions as if the patient was contagious...hand sanitizer, face-shield, even a duckbill (those in the medical field know what I am talking about). | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 4:09:45 PM | Diva...
The Op chose to work in a healthcare profession, however the law changed after he had already established himself as a healthcare professional.
I chose to work in the construction industry - does that mean I have the right to disregard the safety regulations that get put into place after I started? During my apprenticeship, I trained on powered-lifts without a safety belt... now I can't board one without wearing a safety harness and lanyard.
We either adapt to the regulations that govern our profession, or we find a line of work that allows us to be more carefree in our attitudes.
I'm getting the impression that the concept of 'rights' has overshadowed the concept of 'responsibility'...  | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 4:13:49 PM | | Over the past 34 years, I have worn a N95 face mask or similar at work if I remotely began to feel sick. It was to protect my patient from me should I be getting ill. Last thing any sick patients need is a sick health care provider. I can tell you that wearing such a mask for a 12.5 hour shift is NOT an easy thing to do so my bet is most staff will not do this . It does make breathing somewhat harder and can be very hot. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 6:11:50 PM | I chose to work in the construction industry - does that mean I have the right to disregard the safety regulations that get put into place after I started? During my apprenticeship, I trained on powered-lifts without a safety belt... now I can't board one without wearing a safety harness and lanyard.
If I may point out, you are using an example of a law that affects your personal safety, (not to mention liability issues which, the company you work for is responsible for), as opposed to the "safety" of others. This statement in and of itself, actually helps your position in this debate, because it appears to be a blatant contradiction. (We quite possibly, have all experienced how appearances can be deceiving...red herring by the way, Rocket).
However, there is a distinction that cannot be ignored, between a safety harness and a mandated injection into one's own body, of potentially harmful chemicals. Big difference, in my opinion.
We either adapt to the regulations that govern our profession, or we find a line of work that allows us to be more carefree in our attitudes.
Because this law is still in its early stages, (it is a law, right Storm? Not a bill? Admittedly I have not done the research), it can be more readily appealed. As it should be, again in my opinion.
The reason why I feel so strongly about this, is because I feel it is an overreaction based upon fear, and maintains its momentum through a false premise.
Like I said, if the Op feels the first symptoms of an oncoming illness, he could stay at home, which is an equally preventive measure, as a flu vaccine.
I'm getting the impression that the concept of 'rights' has overshadowed the concept of 'responsibility'...
Not true, not true. Irresponsibility would only come into play, if the Op would go to work, knowing that he was sick, and not taking necessary precautions.
Again, and I cannot stress this too much, the vaccine only predicts a probable mutation, it does not predict the nature of the virus that may actually occur. While the swine flu vaccine is more specific, it will still most likely mutate, given time, and the people with the least amount of immunities will be the most affected. It is the nature of viruses.
This is why I think that the vaccine should be optional, (from a biological perspective).
Over the past 34 years, I have worn a N95 face mask or similar at work if I remotely began to feel sick. It was to protect my patient from me should I be getting ill. Last thing any sick patients need is a sick health care provider. I can tell you that wearing such a mask for a 12.5 hour shift is NOT an easy thing to do so my bet is most staff will not do this . It does make breathing somewhat harder and can be very hot.
I absolutely agree with the level of discomfort, while using a face shield. They always made me feel slightly claustrophobic in, some way. However, if one chooses to work when they are sick, I feel like it is a necessary safety precaution. And a better alternative. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 7:24:58 PM | | "I absolutely agree with the level of discomfort, while using a face shield. They always made me feel slightly claustrophobic in, some way. However, if one chooses to work when they are sick, I feel like it is a necessary safety precaution. And a better alternative." Agreed but far too often the mask comes off when at the nursing stations possibly exposing co-workers. TBH, sick calls are really discouraged and often punished by hospitals already working with minimum staff. Minimum staffing is common these days in an effort by hosp admins to save money. Catch 22. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 7:56:11 PM | OP said:
Good point! Please let me explain something here. I have an allergy to eggs, so by the same laws that invoked this Mandate, I am exempt.
If that's the case, what was the point of starting this thread?
Brandie | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 8:43:16 PM | As somebody above mentioned as well , when did your "right" to do with your body as you pleased also become your "right" to be irresponsible ?
This is really a more fundamentally simple question than it's being made. Are you allowed to endanger the lives of others ? Anybody who answers "yes" or replies with a "No , BUT...." isn't thinking straight. You simply DO NOT have that right. It's really just that simple. It has never been anybody's "right" to endanger the lives of others with our own irresponsibility. When people do do that , we call it criminal negligence. This ISN'T about YOU , it's about US. If you don't want to take a shot then fine , don't take it. Get another job. I and WE have a responsibility to the hundreds if not thousands of people you will endanger with your disregard for their safety.
You're no hero to anybody for refusing to take the shot either. It's just selfish and since the decision is based on misinformation to begin with , it's also stupid. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 9:08:15 PM |
I feel it is a form of economic blackmail Would you be sympathetic to a surgeon who refused to scrub up before surgery - or a cook who refused to wash hands after going to the toilet? | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 9:54:40 PM | OP stated
Most people who take it come down with the flu. While most of us who do not take it ...never miss a day of work!
I agree. The two times I got talked into flu shots I became deathly ill and so I will not subject myself or my family to any flu shots. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/9/2009 10:00:14 PM | I am responding to this:
This is really a more fundamentally simple question than it's being made. Are you allowed to endanger the lives of others ? Anybody who answers "yes" or replies with a "No , BUT...." isn't thinking straight. You simply DO NOT have that right. It's really just that simple. It has never been anybody's "right" to endanger the lives of others with our own irresponsibility. When people do do that , we call it criminal negligence.
and this:
I feel it is a form of economic blackmail Would you be sympathetic to a surgeon who refused to scrub up before surgery - or a cook who refused to wash hands after going to the toilet?
with a point I already made earlier...
at the first sign of illness, he could always stay at home until he is recovered. However, there is strong pressure from the medical community to take tylenol and still go to work, since with "said" absence will impose upon "said" facility, a shortage of healthcare professionals and possible negligent care.
and this:
Irresponsibility would only come into play, if the Op would go to work, knowing that he was sick, and not taking necessary precautions.
These are preventative measures, that are as equally effective, as a flu vaccine.
To force the Op is financial blackmail, as he would lose his job if he did not comply...
To answer question, Quitejohn, no, I wouldn't be sympathetic. Above premise would imply that both are precautionary measures, and thus renders an injected vaccine, pointless... | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 1:44:10 AM |
These are preventative measures, that are as equally effective, as a flu vaccine. Wrong. What you feel when you come down with the flu is your own body's attempts to fight it off. The time when it was contagious is already passed for the most part. In other words , by the time you know you've got it , your body is already suppressing it. It's the time before you feel it that represents the greatest danger to those around you.
To force the Op is financial blackmail, as he would lose his job if he did not comply... Also not true. Actually , in a sense it's the other way around. The OP wants his rights to supercede those of his patients. That's when we draw the line for almost all of our perceived 'rights'. YOUR 'rights' do not ever trump the rights of others. When there is a conflict , majority rules. He wants to risk his health because of some nonsense he read on the internet...fine , he can do just that. He is NOT allowed to risk the general public's health. He DOES NOT HAVE the right to expose hundreds or thousands of people to grave danger on account of some nonsense he bought into on the internet.
If he cared that much about his patients he would at least have taken the time to read up on the science behind vaccinations. Actually , it's scary that somebody so selfish and complacent in regards to the needs of his patients would be in the healthcare field in the first place. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 6:07:40 AM |
This ISN'T about YOU , it's about US. If you don't want to take a shot then fine , don't take it. Get another job. I and WE have a responsibility to the hundreds if not thousands of people you will endanger with your disregard for their safety.
Educate yourself and read. These flu shots don't work and indeed may spread the flu! | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 6:11:29 AM | If he cared that much about his patients he would at least have taken the time to read up on the science behind vaccinations.
Thats the problem, I did read the science behind these vaccines and not only do they scare the hell out of me....they DON'T WORK! Perhaps you should read more about the science behind them and WHO PROFITS from these vaccines. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 6:20:51 AM |
Wrong. What you feel when you come down with the flu is your own body's attempts to fight it off. The time when it was contagious is already passed for the most part. In other words , by the time you know you've got it , your body is already suppressing it. It's the time before you feel it that represents the greatest danger to those around you.
I have been waiting for someone to point this out. The flu is transmitted through skin to skin contact, and droplets.
Gloves (which in my opinion, is the best preventive measure while working in a medical facility) would negate skin to skin contact, if someone was asymptomatic and had the flu.
As far as droplets go, a person would have to be symptomatic (coughing, sneezing...and at this point, they would most likely be running a fever) in order for the flu to be transmitted this way.
On a personal note, I worked in the medical field for six years, prior to my current profession. Two years of that time was spent in neurosurgery, (brain tumors, metastasized cancers, etc.). I contracted the flu once during this time (and a nasty one at that), and at the first sign of symptoms I stayed home. However, I think I stayed sick for the entire first year with year with various colds and viruses, when I first started working in the hospital. We were required to wear gloves, before entering a patients room. If we failed to do so, we would be written up. Some of our patients would stay on our unit for months, and I can honestly say only two patients contracted the flu, and it was from family members.
A person who does not take these precautionary measures, is irresponsible, in my opinion. However, while the flu shot was offered, it was optional and I always declined, for reasons already stated. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 6:26:23 AM | | I am sure that all of the people on this forum who think its Ok for the Government to force someone to take a vaccination that is so new are the same people who think Human testing is Ok and will also be the first in line when the Government wants to implant everyone with GPS transmitters or maybe tattoo numbers on our heads.... | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 6:26:25 AM |
sick calls are really discouraged and often punished by hospitals already working with minimum staff
This is a FACT that most non-medical people find hard to believe, however, it is the TRUTH. Hospital Admins could care less if your sick. They will hound you to work when you are sick. This is a fact that anyone working in a hospital as a healthcare provider will tell you!
Divagreen, It is now a law my dear. Unjust and IMO it won't last long! | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 6:28:48 AM | EXACTLY!!!!
I understand the OP.... The government is so deep into our lives anymore that the original Bill of Rights and Constitution are out of date!
More and more I am sounding like some sort of freak against government. NO WAY! I believe that our government should keep out of the private lives of it's citizens as long as there are no laws being broken that affect other people. Yea, I know, lot's of open space for contemplation.
But as for the topic. You should have the FREEDOM to not take the shot. WHY? It's your body! You are an ADULT! Not a child that the government thinks you need to be protected from your own parents!
What is amazing is that so many laws are being broken in the face of the law to NO END. But you have to get a flu shot or risk your job?
I soooo can't wait until the state of NY puts in weight scales at counters of McD's and all other fat food places. Opps, FAST food places.... "I'm sorry, but on the Hobart scale you weigh in at 192 lbs and your height weight ratio is above the Obese level. By LAW we can only sever you the Chicken House Salad with NO FAT dressing! "
If this is such a BIG problem and to epidemic portions... Then WHY from the start have we not put a halt to people from the original infected location on a global QUARANTINE!
I for one did see a lady with the LACK of education in the USA say. "I am under quarantine. I have the flu." while at a Walmart shopping. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 6:44:40 AM |
But as for the topic. You should have the FREEDOM to not take the shot. WHY? It's your body! You are an ADULT! Not a child that the government thinks you need to be protected from your own parents! As long as people continue acting like children in an irresponsible/negligent manner, someone has to tell them what to do to protect the rights of others.
Nurses care for sick people, sick people have lowered immunities; when nurses get sick, they still get paid so it's a huge burden on the people that pay the taxes to not only pay them for being ill, but for the replacement nurse to take their place at overtime rate.
I still say if you don't want to comply with the mandate of your job, then get a different one. No one is entitled to a job, they earn it... | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 6:57:52 AM |
As long as people continue acting like children in an irresponsible/negligent manner, someone has to tell them what to do to protect the rights of others.
Very good!~ However, let me rephrase it slightly to make it viable:
As long as our Government continues acting like children in an irresponsible/negligent manner, someone has to tell them what to do to protect the rights of EACH SINGLE INDIVIDUAL. | |
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| My body,My choice! Posted: 10/10/2009 11:00:22 AM | | Correct me if I'm wrong but don't a lot of the medical community continue to work with diseases such as Hepatitis C? Some of those most likely deal with your blood on a daily basis as well? Right or wrong? | |
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