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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 3:04:10 AM |
So let's look at this whole GBS (Guillain-Barre Syndrome) issue.
Source Please? Is it Baxter??????
The below Source's has put 20 fold increase in GBS after the 1976 Swine Flu
Injection. Figures wre only that high for 1976.
http://books.google.com/books?id=L2TJDwy0l_0C&lpg=PA53&ots=3eFHYgcoZB&dq=Number%20of%20GBS%20cases%20in%20America%20per%20Year&pg=PA56#v=onepage&q=&f=false | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 5:24:57 AM | | Sir, given the way you twist around the facts, it is difficult to accept any information coming from you. For example, the lady who was in contact with the mercury who four months later starting exhibiting symptoms (which you "told" us about) had been working with a rare toxic material. You called me ignorant before, but I see you spreading misinformation. Go about your life - you have no interest but standing up for your petty, selfish "right" to do whatever pleases you. It would be nice if you did what pleases us, but somehow I doubt you'll just disappear. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 5:55:39 AM | you also have the right to quite your job and thus avoid taking the flu shot. that's the quid pro quo. take it or leave it. or are you one of those folks who wants everything for free and without obligation?
it is the proper role of government to provide basic protection for its citizens and this also extends to certain arenas of public health. yes there are certain risks inherent in any activity and that includes taking a vaccination. however from a public health perspective, the overwheming consensus is that the risks associated with a vaccine versus the risks associated with a dangerous and highly contagious disease makes the decision about "what to do" a pretty easy one to make. and from a public health perspective, your right to not take a flu shot ends exactly where it meets another person's right to not be infected by your goddamn disgusting cooties.
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 9:18:49 AM | Source Please? Is it Baxter??????
For what? Certainly you can't be questioning the information in my description of GBS, can you?
If that is the case then you are just being a twit, there are literally hundreds of sources describing GBS out there and none of them are going to throw my description into question. The sources I used in describing GBS are my own knowledge backed up by reviewing my neuropsychoimmunology, clinical neuropsychology and neurology references and a quick literature review for any updated information.
But, on the off chance that you are being silly enough to do so, here is an easy to read description that requires nothing more than a H.S. reading level to understand.
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/detail_gbs.htm
The below Source's has put 20 fold increase in GBS after the 1976 Swine Flu
Injection. Figures wre only that high for 1976.
If this indicates that you are questioning only the last 4 paragraphs then I can tell you that you are attempting to play games with the statistics.
Obviously you either didn't read what was written or did not understand it. The only way to get a 20-fold increase out of the numbers is by comparing the number of cases of GBS associated with the swine flu vaccine with the number of cases for other vaccines in general and even that is dependent on the population examined. I've already noted that in my post...
while normal for GBS for all triggers, is high for a vaccine as the specific, identified trigger (vaccines are normally in the 0.x to 0.0x range and modern flu vaccines are in this range)
but the increase, relative to all sources of GBS, is not anything close to that and I pointed out one of the important differences between flu vaccines and other vaccines in general that may account for it (there may be others, the compounds associated with the protien coat of the influenza virus, for example)
As for the sources of the epidemiological information, it would take an entire page to cite them all specifically, and most are not easily accessible in thier full version for people who don't have access to the actual journal. I will however, give you the list of publications where the information can be found to help you narrow your literature search (besides, spending a little bit of time actually doing a formal literature search of scientifically rigorous sources will help you in understanding the issue as you clearly are not doing this).
Emerging Infectious Diseases
Journal of Infectious Diseases
Clinical immunology
Drug Safety
Journal of the American Medical Association
Neurology
Journal of Neuroimmunology
Lancet
Current Neurology and Neuroscience Reports
Transactions of the American Neurological Association
Southern Medical Journal
American Journal of Epidemiology
Evaluation Review
Archives of Neurology
New England Journal of Medicine
Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine
Canadian Medical Association Journal
Neurologia i Neurochirurgia Polska | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 9:41:04 AM |
Source Please? You are questioning sources? That's laughable in light of the fact that your various sources have been easily debunked. 
you also have the right to quite your job and thus avoid taking the flu shot. that's the quid pro quo. take it or leave it. or are you one of those folks who wants everything for free and without obligation? Already established was that the OP still expected to remain in good standing with his position and to continue to be paid even during his being unable to show up to work due to illness if he contracted this disease.
Every health care professional I've been in contact with, without fail, have recommended that if you work with people, or are exposed to people with reduced immune systems, that you receive the H1N1 and flu shots. This is to protect the individuals that need it the most... the vulnerable persons in our communities. The fact that someone that should be more concerned with the healt of others is so blind to this issue concerns me greatly. I cannot express how happy I am that he's not in the proximity to care for my loved ones, and I'm concerned for the safety of those he is in contact with...
Simply another attention whore looking for his fifteen minutes of fame not being concerned with the safety of the public while he does so...  | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 5:19:52 PM |
Go about your life - you have no interest but standing up for your petty, selfish "right" to do whatever pleases you.
Thank You. I hope you never have an invasive procedure forced
upon you. Never met anyone that has..that it actually "pleased them."
For what? Certainly you can't be questioning the information in my description of GBS, can you?
Anyone can google a list of Medical articles, however, I doubt
your prior post came from any you listed. Nice try!
you also have the right to quite your job and thus avoid taking the flu shot. that's the quid pro quo. take it or leave it.
Are you aware the Mandate has been halted by a Supreme Court Judge?
Even though your post appears more of an assault than disscussion,
I'll take the high road here and compliment you on looking like
a dead ringer for the talented actress Catherine Bates.
Simply another attention whore looking for his fifteen minutes of fame not being concerned with the safety of the public while he does so.
You also wrote "Debunked?" Are you serious? In your mind perhaps.
Bottom line is ..when it comes down to a choice of my health being subject
to "chance" with a vaccine that's no more than poison... to protect the likes of you...
I'll choose ME over you 100% of the time. Healthcare workers owe you
nothing that significant. We did not donate our bodies to Science. We are not your or the States personal property. However, we shall soon see the truth about this
very vaccine, as the "Great Pandemic "is almost here. Despite these attacks that I'll dismiss for plain ignorance, I pray to God I'm WRONG! | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 6:00:56 PM | SOURCE ~CDC~
The National Influenza Immunization Program
On March 10, 1976, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of the United States Public Health Service (ACIP) reviewed the findings. The committee concluded that with a new strain (the H1N1 New Jersey strain) that could be transmitted from person to person, a pandemic was a possibility. Specifically, the following facts were of concern: 1) persons 50 "antecedent events" had been identified in temporal relationship to GBS, events that were considered as possible factors in its cause. The list included viral infections, injections, and "being struck by lightning." Whether or not any of the antecedents had a causal relationship to GBS was, and remains, unclear. When cases of GBS were identified among recipients of the swine flu vaccines, they were, of course, well covered by the press. Because GBS cases are always present in the population, the necessary public health questions concerning the cases among vaccine recipients were "Is the number of cases of GBS among vaccine recipients higher than would be expected? And if so, are the increased cases the result of increased surveillance or a true increase?" Leading epidemiologists debated these points, but the consensus, based on the intensified surveillance for GBS (and other conditions) in recipients of the vaccines, was that the number of cases of GBS appeared to be an excess.
 DEBUNKED? | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 6:32:39 PM |
I'll choose ME over you 100% of the time. Have you never once stopped to consider that, just maybe, you're in the wrong profession?
Healthcare workers owe you nothing that significant. Do you know what healthcare workers owe their patients?
They owe the patients, who've trusted them with their own lives, the responsibility to ensure they're taking the the best precautions to protect everyone.
They also owe it to their patients to use rational judgement, and follow rational peer-reviewed medical science. Rather risking human life by completely forsaking valid medical science in favor of wildly chasing after unsubstantiated junk science that some ignorant fear monger is posting on the internet.
It seems that too many people are posting bogus claims, unproven "facts", and theories with no validity, on the internet these days. Sadly, many people may be quick to believe them.
But I'd like to think that the trained profesionals in the health care industries should be relied on to responsibly do their part to control the spread of misinformation. It's actually quite frightening to see someone, claiming to work in the healthcare industry, who's doing more than his share of contributing to the spread of the garbage "facts" and misinformation.
We are not your or the States personal property. You're right. You can quit any time you wish. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/18/2009 6:42:26 PM | I doubt your prior post came from any you listed. Nice try!
Really? and why?
Because you don't like arguing with someone who actually has a background in neuropsych and neuropsychoimmunology that has the recources to show how foolish your argument is?
DEBUNKED?
Not even close... Clearly you aren't understanding what you read... the quote you posted is saying exactly the same thing I said previously, just more formally.
Let's put them side-by-side for comparison of meaning, shall we?
your quote...
SOURCE ~CDC~
The National Influenza Immunization Program
On March 10, 1976, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of the United States Public Health Service (ACIP) reviewed the findings. The committee concluded that with a new strain (the H1N1 New Jersey strain) that could be transmitted from person to person, a pandemic was a possibility. Specifically, the following facts were of concern: 1) persons 50 "antecedent events" had been identified in temporal relationship to GBS, events that were considered as possible factors in its cause. The list included viral infections, injections, and "being struck by lightning." Whether or not any of the antecedents had a causal relationship to GBS was, and remains, unclear. When cases of GBS were identified among recipients of the swine flu vaccines, they were, of course, well covered by the press. Because GBS cases are always present in the population, the necessary public health questions concerning the cases among vaccine recipients were "Is the number of cases of GBS among vaccine recipients higher than would be expected? And if so, are the increased cases the result of increased surveillance or a true increase?" Leading epidemiologists debated these points, but the consensus, based on the intensified surveillance for GBS (and other conditions) in recipients of the vaccines, was that the number of cases of GBS appeared to be an excess.
my statement...
The close association in time of the onset of GBS and time of immunization indicates that there is reason to believe the pathological immune response was triggered by the vaccine in a manner similar to the way infectious agents do. The incidence rate of approximately 1 per 100,000, while normal for GBS for all triggers, is high for a vaccine as the specific, identified trigger (vaccines are normally in the 0.x to 0.0x range and modern flu vaccines are in this range) and this too biases towards the role of a pathological immune response triggered by the vaccine. However, flu vaccines often provoke a very strong immune response which is why so many more feel "symptomatic" after a flu vaccination over other routine vaccinations.
Seriously dude... do a literature search... or at least get enough of a clue to understand what people are writing. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/19/2009 2:58:43 AM |
They owe the patients, who've trusted them with their own lives, the responsibility to ensure they're taking the the best precautions to protect everyone.
They also owe it to their patients to use rational judgement, and follow rational peer-reviewed medical science.
We have family too and want to come home to them safe.
Many of us feel this stances against a injection that indeed may result
in GBS or other health problems is the "best precaution" and rational
judgement. The majority of Healthcare workers in NY agree with
this position. The facts are less than 40% recieve any flu shot
at all here in NY.
Lets reverse this. How would you feel about a law that stated
members of the public whom failed to get vaccinated against the N1H1 vaccine,
could not recieve medical treatment at any hospital, because they may or
may not affect the employees?
By your logic ...it would be a just law??????? | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/19/2009 3:10:58 AM | My post:
Because GBS cases are always present in the population, the necessary public health questions concerning the cases among vaccine recipients were "Is the number of cases of GBS among vaccine recipients higher than would be expected? And if so, are the increased cases the result of increased surveillance or a true increase?" Leading epidemiologists debated these points, but the consensus, based on the intensified surveillance for GBS (and other conditions) in recipients of the vaccines, was that the number of cases of GBS appeared to be an excess.
THE NUMBER OF CASES OF GBS APPEARED TO BE AN EXCESS!
Your post # 202
The long and the short of it is that the flu vaccine does not increase your overall (lifetime) risk of developing GBS. You are vastly more likely to develop GBS from a case of food poisoning than getting a flu shot. And even with the elevated risk relative to other vaccines, you are still unlikely to develop GBS unless you are already predisposed/susceptible to do so anyway.
BIG DIFFERENCE! | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/19/2009 3:21:16 AM | When weighed by the life of my son, your rights pale in comparison. Agreed 100%. Not only your Son, but all people.
to protect the likes of you...
I'll choose ME over you 100% of the time. Please pick a stance and stick with it... I've also noticed you jumping from side to side in your debate with other people. First you say that the rights of others supercede yours, then you disparagingly dismiss my life as not worthy of your concern... and from your posts in here, I see you going from reflective to manic in a short timespan.
Perhaps stopping for a second to review the various stances you've taken would help you in realizing that those of us on the other side of the debate cannot take you seriously since your opinion changes like the wind. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/19/2009 7:39:16 AM |
When weighed by the life of my son, your rights pale in comparison.
Agreed 100%. Not only your Son, but all people.
You then wrote...
to protect the likes of you...
I'll choose ME over you 100% of the time.
Please pick a stance and stick with it..
These two arguments are not mutually exclusive. Must you engage in fallacies to push a point?
First you say that the rights of others supercede yours, then you disparagingly dismiss my life as not worthy of your concern...
Nowhere did he say this. Why do you feel a need to resort to hyperbole?
Perhaps stopping for a second to review the various stances you've taken would help you in realizing that those of us on the other side of the debate cannot take you seriously since your opinion changes like the wind.
I would say his stand has been very consistent. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/19/2009 8:40:15 AM |
These two arguments are not mutually exclusive. Must you engage in fallacies to push a point?
Nowhere did he say this. Why do you feel a need to resort to hyperbole? Reread his posts, he’s clearly made those statements.
I would say his stand has been very consistent. I would say his stance has wavered dramatically in many regards, one simply must read for comprehension. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/19/2009 6:32:47 PM | From the NYCLU to NYSDOH;
Consideration of the relative severity of the threat, the degree of intrusion
occasioned by a vaccination (including the possibility of side effects), the fact that
mandatory vaccination is likely to mitigate, but not to eradicate the threat, and the
availability of alternative, less intrusive measures, leads to the conclusion that the
NYSDOH has failed to strike the appropriate balance in mandating the vaccine.
The HINI vaccine is also different from other vaccines and medications that have
been required by the state in various contexts, such as MMR (measles, mumps, and
rubella),12 diphtheria, polio, and tuberculosis. 13 In each of those cases the vaccination or
medication is known to be one hundred per cent effective in preventing the disease and/or treating it, and preventing transmission.
The HINI vaccine, by contrast, is not designed to, nor can it, eradicate the
flu. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/19/2009 6:34:38 PM | | The medical community has been wrong in the past about so many things that I sympathize with you. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/19/2009 6:43:03 PM | | It has nothing to do with the employer wanting him to release them from liability; it has to do with Health Care workers needing to be available to be health care workers during an outbreak. It's no diffrent than being required to do your annual PPD Screen or are you somehow ducking out of that also? | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/20/2009 2:43:53 AM |
It's no diffrent than being required to do your annual PPD Screen or are you somehow ducking out of that also?
Sir, if you believe that injection of N1H1 flu shot is as simple
as getting a PPD ( we get them twice a year) then I cannot
even hold a disscussion with you on such a level. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/20/2009 2:45:43 AM | was that the number of cases of GBS appeared to be an excess.
Yes, APPEARED to... not proven to... simply may have... and only for that particular vaccine... modern flu vaccines have a risk in the range expected of other vaccines.
And... as I have pointed out already (which you seem to be unable to grasp)... this is relative to vaccination... not lifetime risk... the risk is roughly equal to the lifetime risk of 1-2 per 100,000.
and...
You are vastly more likely to develop GBS from a case of food poisoning than getting a flu shot.
Which is ABSOLUTELY true given the incidence respecting c. jejuni infections has been measured as high as 30 per 100,000... flu vaccine doesn't even come close...
BIG DIFFERENCE!
It's only a "big difference" if you don't understand the fundamental principles of epidemiology, which appears to be the case here. | |
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~Kyn~
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Joined: 8/24/2009
Msg: 220 | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/20/2009 7:28:26 AM |
I hope you never have an invasive procedure forced
upon you.
It is sad and funny at the same time...the fact that you have absolutly no clue to what is like to "have an invasive procedure forced upon you". You have the luxury of being able to choose if you stay or not. You have complete freedom to walk away, quit your job, and find another. So do everyone a favor...exercise your rights...quit and find another job. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/20/2009 7:56:10 AM | It seems that the luddites, the superstitious and the simply selfish lead the parade.
If you choose to not get the shot, then don't. But to continue arguing here about it is kind of like the little girl who needs attention for the slightest owie. Pick up your panties, quit your crying and continue your selfish, self-deluding life in silence. Why did you become a nurse anyway? Was it the pretty skirt?
Your manipulation of facts and "facts" renders your contribution to your own discussion meaningless.
Ignorance has more than one meaning, stormpussy. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/20/2009 8:17:10 AM | | This situation could have been handled so much easier, if the government had initiated a voluntary program for the vaccine with the stipulation that if you didn't get it and you got sick you would not get paid for sick time. In Canada they have a website for retired nurses to signup and volunteer to come back to work if there is a shortage of medical staff off sick. If vaccines were to blame for autism and other side effects don't you think we would have seen evidence of this along time ago when the vaccines first came out and were given to the public. I believe most of the problems we are seeing now are do to the chemicals/additives in our food and the pollution in our environment, eat a piece of fish and you'll be exposed to mercury and other toxins. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/20/2009 10:29:12 AM | | I think the concern is larger than sick pay or even the possible shortage of medical staff. Health care workers come into contact with people whose immune systems are already compromised. You are contagious 24 hours before you feel sick with influenza. They are doing the right thing by requiring all healthcare workers to get immunized. You don't like it, as many here have said, quit. | |
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| My body,My choice!
Posted: 10/20/2009 10:54:55 AM | I've never had a flu shot and have no intention of getting one because of the swine flu or the bird flu or any other ick "they" come up with. I have friends who get flu shots every year and soon after, they get sick. Then again, they are often sick, in my opinion because they have unhealthy habits (smoking, drinking excessively, diet sodas, junk food, etc.).
I believe most people get sick because they are ignorant and apathetic regarding aquiring and maintaining healthy habits. You fill your body with unatural chemicals (thanks to the FDA and corporate food producers and your own ignorance), subject your psyche to negative influences (fear, hate, anger, self-loathing) and absolutely fail to seek out information for your own good and then in wide-eyed wonder can't understand why you are sick!
What I find most funny is the pork industry having to inform folks that they can't get the pig flu from eating pig....lol! Just goes to show how frikking ignorant people are. How about taking 2 minutes to wash your hands real good (often). I noticed at the state fair this year signs posted every where to inform the public to wash their hands after touching the animals....duh! Animals are dirty and nowadays so is the public.
Educate yourselves instead of waiting for the government to tell you what to do.
my 20 cents worth. I have to agree with the OP, no one should be forced to take a substance into their body or loose their job. But, why would you want to work for an entity that requires that of you in the first place? Fear mongers all of them! | |
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