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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 8:41:58 AM |
We are intellectually beneath them
You're free to speak for yourself. You can't prove that, any more than you can prove they engage in philosophy or have a moral sense. Much of what John Lilly said about the Pacific bottlenose is his drug-fueled flights of fancy. What fuels your own, God knows. The very fact you don't differentiate among various species of dolphins says a lot about how valid your claim is. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 8:53:10 AM |
If you are truly interested in knowing, the science of ID looks at all of the different sciences, not just biology, to find pieces to the puzzle.
I have no doubt that people who feel compelled to prove a factual basis for the Bible can muster up all sorts of convincing arguments and plausible explanations. I also have no doubt that the experimental method will eventually uncover natural mechanisms that account for all of that evidence with fewer assumptions.
The only historical fact that matters to Christianity is a one-time singular event that science could not have predicted and cannot account for. That event is the basis of your faith. The rest of it is just rationalizations after the fact.
In my view, none of those rationalizations are necessary. The only thing I look for is the quality of your lives. When I see agitated people aggressively putting forward delusional stories about an imminent and violent end, which they fortunately, will escape, and when I see them bamboozling little kids with fear tactics, and when I see them going to any lengths to undermine our finest accomplishment as human beings--our recognition of the scientific method as a reliable method for validating what we know, it does not give me much confidence.
When I see people walking in grace, living in peace, ministering to others without thought of reward--not even the "reward" of their conversion--it makes me want what they have. And dammit, I do want that. You have no idea how much. But if I have to trade in my mind and my soul--if I have to sacrifice essential parts of my being like my sexuality--in order to get it, then it appears to me that I would then be living a lie.
I am who and how I am. If God accepts me as I am, fine. But if God wants me to edit myself in some way in order to qualify for His love, what sort of a love is that? | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:12:32 AM | .....But whether that is through the operation of God or intuition is a matter of debate. You take it on faith or you don't.
I agree with you Ace that acceptance of God requires a bit of a leap....bigger for some, smaller for others I'd guess.
Way back somewhere in this thread, and I wish I could remember whom it was, someone wrote something really neat on this. The quote said something like this: "If you accept God, you see him everywhere. If you don't accept God, you don't see him anywhere." Probably true.
Reading through the past few pages seems to say to me that the logic is that if there is no God, then there also is no sin (ie: no judge of right and wrong). (Is that true?). But then, if there is a God, then we also find sin (a priori to the precept of the original question??) because God has determined right and wrong. Then the arguement goes on for the "no-God crowd" that then also we would accept that everything evolved, even including mankind, and we are "just another animal on the planet" and should have no more "value system" than other animals do. But then contrary to that, the "yes there is a God crowd" is stating that man is decidedly different from animals with unique advanced abilities which could only happen via designed creation(or unexplainable only by just evolution), and so there must be a Creator...God. (which then explains value-systems and that there is sin among other things in this existence too) Is that the gist?
Speaking using a very simple example, when there are moments that I respect life (bring a meal to a person say), I feel good. When on the other hand I disprespect life (ie kill a trespassing spyder in my living room), I feel bad. Are these feelings somehow a result of innately knowing God somehow, or rather are they a bi-product somehow of strict evolution? | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:39:32 AM |
Are these feelings somehow a result of innately knowing God somehow, or rather are they a bi-product somehow of strict evolution?
You see 04... I believe that you can have both... I believe God created Man... but his creation is an evolution... that we would evolve over time. Both Man and All other living things, including the Universe. But also there is a third reality.... when it comes to feeling guilt... or like you have either sinned... or done something good. It comes from how we were raised... This has been part of this discussion in many ways. One can truly feel God... and believe their faith... but how they gained that faith may be different than the next guy... and those differences are how they learned and gained that faith.
What we believe to be right or wrong is different based on our Religion... not our Faith... There was one true message of Love... that everything else is gathered in that same basket... and the rules and laws that we put on ourselves comes from the standards placed on us by other men.
So, as we are raised to believe one way or another we create right and wrong within us. If you find God in your heart, he will touch you with these feelings of what is right or wrong.... But not all believers feel the same things... Because what is a sin for one church, may not be a sin for another... and sure... most churches... will teach most of the major sins... Like Murder, Adultery... and what not... but some churches go as far as teaching drinking coffee is a sin... wearing a bikini is a sin.... playing cards is a sin... The list can go for ever.
So... society, which ever society you are brought up in... determines what is sin. Unfortunately... It also wants to determine "who" is God, and "how" people have a right to worship him. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:03:05 AM | I would rather err on the side of saying there IS a God and find out after I die that I was wrong than to err by saying there is NO God and find out after I die that there is. The rewards for being right are so awesome and the potential consequences for being wrong too great to risk.
If I agree that there is a God and His son is Jesus Christ and I am wrong, what have I lost in this life? But if I am right, look at all that I have gained.
Psalm 14:1-3 "The fool says in his heart there is no God". | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:15:37 AM | Yep!, BAA, BAA, BAA. I am happy to be a sheep because I have a shepherd who loves me, provides what I need, and takes good care of me. He IS a good shepherd!
Rather be a sheep than a smelly, stubborn old goat. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:27:25 AM | I believe God created Man... but his creation is an evolution... that we would evolve over time.
I have no problems with that Jack. Even Jesus was much shorter than the average person is today......better foods and nutrition, better lives, etc....
But the part about "...we create right and wrong within us", I have a harder time with that one. I think it goes deeper. And while I can't back it up "scientifically", perhaps the best example of this would be in looking at how even remote cultures hold some of the same/similar "right and wrong" principles about life. Most see murder as bad, adultery too. And while they give many names, most also have some form of diety to worship. Perhaps its the spirit or Spirit which is within us which leads us there, but I think that the Spirit within us might be the messenger from just somewhere/being else too. Unfortunately, on this earth, we'll never really know the answer to that one for sure in concrete facts. But, juries make decisions on implications and logic sometimes too....not saying I'm the perfect juror, but in my own little jury-room, I'm thinking there's got to be somewhere that all of life and Life came from, which is beyond ourselves..... One man's opinion. Enjoy exchangeing with you Jack! | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:27:44 AM | You know.... with all this sexual tension between this sheep and smelly old goat... Be careful.... We wouldn't want another GEEP
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-513047/How-night-passion-sheep-goat-led-Lisa-GEEP.html
04... Nothing I say is cut in stone... only voicing my thoughts.... I believe all of the cultures around the world throughout time have had some sort of influence... And they do seem to know to some extent... right from wrong.... But what I am saying is that these cultures than create within their society a right and wrong... creating right from wrong... Maybe I should say adding to that character... What I was saying is that a lot of our debate on God and religion comes from a society or religious belief... based on what we learn about God... Our guilt comes from most of these teachings of someone else's take on what Christ taught. Masturbation for example... Is it a sin? How would we know if it is or not other than being taught that it is ok or not? | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:04:58 PM |
I told God to suck my balls... are you man enough to do the same? What? Chicken?
That's about how I have you figured, but your proclivities are your business. Me, I like women--only women. And yes, I get real concerned about my ankles when a crazed little mutt yaps at me. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:25:25 PM | "Even Jesus was much shorter than the average person is today......better foods and nutrition, better lives, etc...."
Findings of the national geographic genome project are that height is an evolutionary function of heat in the area. More heat ... more surface area of skin ... tall and slender. More sun .. more sun protection .. darker skin. Hence, very light skinned short stocky people in snowy mountainous cold cold areas ... retain heat and get as much of the less sun as they can.
I also have no conflict with the underlying message of the Gospels along with the theory of evolution. Even if it all started with a big bang that big bang had to have a source .. a creator.
I had a great example of the difference in faith and belief this weekend from a person who likes circuses. He spoke of watching the performer on the high wire pushing a cart across the wire. He has total belief the guy will make it safely across. It takes more than belief ... it takes faith .. to climb in the cart and be pushed across. I often have faith and experience of being successfully pushed across. However, the metaphor made me realize that experience doesn't mean I don't need faith again the next time I am called upon to trust God. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:34:16 PM |
Rather be a sheep than a smelly, stubborn old goat.
Again - name calling instead of backing up your point
Tell me, Pete, why do you think everything is about YOU? I did not call YOU a smelly old goat. If I had wanted to call YOU specifically a smelly old goat, then I would have said, "I would rather be a sheep than a smelly old goat, LIKE YOU". But that is not what I said, hence there was no name calling going on. It is laughable that you self-righteously accuse others of the very behavior you consistently do.
Instead of referring to YOU as a smelly old goat, I was making reference to the scripture where Jesus said He would separate the SHEEP from the GOATS. (Matt 25: 32-33). On that day, I would rather be a sheep than a smelly old goat. My preference and my choice.
Secondly, since when did a personal preference (which I was stating) become a point which needs to be backed up with anything? It is a preference, NOT a fact. Back to English 101 and a review of the lesson on reading for understanding and comprehension. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:25:51 PM |
the "like you" was implied
No, it was not. That is your subjective interpretation. I guess if the shoe fits, you should wear it.
Why would you prefer to live in fear? It's a valid question. You don't have to back it up with anything... but I think you should.
I did back it up. Read my post. I gave my reason when I stated my preference to be a sheep rather than a goat. Because I have a good shepherd.
And I do not serve God out of fear but out of wisdom. I do not want to be a fool..
"A fool says in his heart there is no God." | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:53:14 PM |
Reading through the past few pages seems to say to me that the logic is that if there is no God, then there also is no sin (ie: no judge of right and wrong). (Is that true?)
What a brilliant way to bring the discussion back on track. God or no God, there certainly is ample evidence of evil and human lapses. The question is, how do we recognize them, deal with the damage done, and prevent further damage? | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:56:09 PM |
I would rather err on the side of saying there IS a God and find out after I die that I was wrong than to err by saying there is NO God and find out after I die that there is. The rewards for being right are so awesome and the potential consequences for being wrong too great to risk.
Exactly. That's not faith, it's fear. I wouldn't want anyone aligned with me who as just hedging their bets.
I know it's more than that for you. I'm just pointing out that this argument is an appeal to superstition, not faith. If Christ's resurrection meant anything, it means that we do not have to placate God in any way, shape, or form. We don't have to sell our soul to some idea of God that some so-called authority is asking us to buy. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 4:30:10 PM | the science of ID looks at all of the different sciences,
And, they don't seem to notice the scientific method being used in all other sciences. ID is not science. It never will be because you can't repilcate most of the Bible's findings. There will never be another MARRIED, virgin mother, flooding of the entire Earth or talking burning bush being taken seriously as the voice of God. Well, I guess the latter may happen on a mushroom trip as I suspect the first one was. Trying to pass ID as science is ridiculous. I just don't see a woman ever being formed from a rib again. Real science draws conclusions from experiments that can be replicated over and over again.
Science is not based off of miracles like other people who like to base their understandings on. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:08:45 PM |
I die that I was wrong than to err by saying there is NO God and find out after I die that there is. The rewards for being right are so awesome and the potential consequences for being wrong too great to risk.
Exactly. That's not faith, it's fear. I wouldn't want anyone aligned with me who as just hedging their bets.
That statement was to bring a reason for believe in God over not believing in God down to its basest (last ditch reason) level. It is NOT the sum total of why I believe in God, and you KNOW it.
If you had been paying attention to the previous 74 pages of this thread, rather than picking apart every nuance and every jot and tittle of every sentence I post, you would KNOW by now that I serve God for a lot more reasons than base fear. If you would like me to repost all of the reasons for your review, I will happy to oblige you.
The Lord decides who are sheep and who are goats... not you.
Jesus does not separate the sheep from the goats until the end of the age. Meanwhile, He told us judge people by their fruit. (see Galatians 5 for an explanation of what fruit is)
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:36:36 PM |
And, they don't seem to notice the scientific method being used in all other sciences. ID is not science. It never will be because you can't repilcate most of the Bible's findings. There will never be another MARRIED, virgin mother, flooding of the entire Earth or talking burning bush being taken seriously as the voice of God. Well, I guess the latter may happen on a mushroom trip as I suspect the first one was. Trying to pass ID as science is ridiculous. I just don't see a woman ever being formed from a rib again. Real science draws conclusions from experiments that can be replicated over and over again.
Science is not based off of miracles like other people who like to base their understandings on.
Science cannot replicate evolution or everything used to support it. There is more to science than lab tests. There is a whole lot more scientific theory used than anything else, based off of evidence and deductive reasoning. ID has plenty of evidence used from all of the sciences, not t o prove the virgin birth or the resurrection, but simply to prove that God exists beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Proving the accuracy of the Bible using archeology along with the eyewitness accounts within and the total humanness with all of the accounts of the mistakes the eyewitnesses themselves made while being discipled by Jesus adds a whole lot to the credibility of their testimony. Nobody would have written it that way it is written if they were making it up. Any rational person can easily see that. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:40:24 PM |
So HERE - we have EXACTLY why you Christians should stop persecuting people, judging people, and harming people in the Lord's name. The Lord decides who are sheep and who are goats... not you.
Who here has been doing any of that other than you yourself? | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:57:49 PM |
.....The question is, how do we recognize them, deal with the damage done, and prevent further damage?
This cuts right to my heart with its beauty and intent. If we could set this as a priority and be successful with it as a coorporate group of imperfect humans, we'd be so much more ahead. Wonderful and oh so true of a post.
Maybe the Beatles were right...."....All we need is LOVE. All we need is LOVE. All we need iiiissss Love, Love.......Love is all we need. Love is all we need. Love is all we need." | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:16:10 PM |
if Christ's resurrection meant anything, it means that we do not have to placate God in any way, shape, or form. We don't have to sell our soul to some idea of God that some so-called authority is asking us to buy.
You are SO right, Ace! It is no longer how good we are, or how holy we are, what rules we follow, or what church we belong to. It is ALL Christ and his death and resurrection. When He said on the cross, "It is finished," He meant it IS finished. There is NOTHING we can add to Christ's accomplishment to become more accepted by God. THAT is good news. That is the LOVE of God towards us. What we could not do for ourselves, Christ did for us. All we have to do is accept the gift.
It's like a millionaire died and left a million dollars in an account with his child's name on it. That child can live like a pauper, or he can go to the bank and draw out what is rightfully his and enjoy the benefits of his inheritance. Salvation is a FREE gift. We do nothing but accept it. Period. Salvation is FREE. Free means without any cost to you...FREE! The only condition is to receive what has been given to you. God's gift is simple...Man has made it complicated...
o4 said, "all we need is love". We HAD love walking among us but we nailed it to a cross. Thank God that love rose from the dead and is alive today to be imparted to any who are willing to receive it. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:48:26 PM |
It's like a millionaire died and left a million dollars in an account with his child's name on it.
Am I going to have to get out my HP-19C with all of the finance buttons on it?.....is that a million dollars in the dollars of Jesus' time or only today's dollars? | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:54:09 PM | Your HP-19C with all of the finance buttons on it cannot ompute a number THIS big!
Those are eternal dollars, compounded daily, with no inflation and no taxes and no threat of anybody stealing it or garnishing your account. THAT is MY retirement plan..  | |
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