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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 5:29:24 PM | So Jack, are you saying that one can find God by becoming a Muslim, a Buddhist or whatever, because all religions lead back to the same God?
Are you saying we all should find our own truth or we should find truth on our own?
It's hard to know from the response you gave, so please clarify?
Thanks | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 6:15:05 PM |
Muslims worship the same God Christians and Jews do
Muslims, Christians and Jews do NOT worship the same God. Christians worship Jesus as God in the flesh. Muslims and Jews certainly do not..
The very name "Christian" comes from Greek (christianos) which being translated means "follower of Christ." | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 6:28:02 PM | | ^^^^^I do hope, Boomer, that you'll be careful how you refer to our Muslim brothers. Some here may just think the world of the Islamic jihadists who believe Allah commands them to kill as many American as possible. At least I've seen them write things that sure sounded like they were fans. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 6:43:09 PM | | I respect Muslims as people but do not consider them my brothers. A brother or a sister in the Christian faith is one who, by reason of their faith in Jesus Christ as their savior, has been adopted into the family of God. Does not matter their ethnicity, it is simply a matter of believing and receiving. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:04:21 PM |
So Jack, are you saying that one can find God by becoming a Muslim, a Buddhist or whatever, because all religions lead back to the same God?
Muslims, Christians and Jews do NOT worship the same God. Christians worship Jesus as God in the flesh. Muslims and Jews certainly do not..
Gg... Actually... I'm saying that religions create their own Idea of God.... Cali, Not all Christians believe that Christ is God in the flesh, I for one am a Christian... and believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Now, Jews and Muslims I believe think Jesus was a Prophet and not the Messiah... But I could be wrong... But they still believed in the same God. He may be called something different... But it was the Archangel Gabriel who Muhammad claims to have spoken to... The same Archangel who spoke to Mary I believe. It is all rooted in the same beliefs... I believe they just have different versions. They all still believe in just One God.
I'm not saying anything is right or wrong... Just it seems their stories and concepts are similar. Do all religions lead back to the same God?... Maybe they do? Do I believe in the Muslims beliefs? or Jewish Beliefs? or even most Christian Beliefs? No I don't.... But I do believe in God, and am not the person to tell someone else that the God they believe in is not the true God... especially when they may be talking about the same Creator.
Are you saying we all should find our own truth or we should find truth on our own?
I'm saying that if I wish to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, Not God in the Flesh... That They were One in Purpose... And that God sent his Son to be the Light on the Earth. And for me to believe that God is a loving God and that we are here out of his Love... not out of Sin. Than I believe that some Church authorities who believe in a doctrine that I don't, and wishes to cherry pick the Bible to make their case... I have the right to do disagree and pray, and find the truth through God.
And Again... I'm not saying you can't find truth through a church... and that you have to find it on your own... I'm sure that my up bring in going to church as a kid has an influence on the way I think... But to realize the truth, it must be found from within... It cannot be from someone else... You can get guidance I believe from others... But when it comes down to really knowing God in your heart... It is in you... You feel God inside... not from what someone else tells you to feel.
And.. again... This is my opinion.... I don't have the answers for anyone else. I believe we all need to find our own answers. I just will disagree when someone is telling me I am doing it wrong!!!
It's hard to know from the response you gave, so please clarify?
You can find it in a Church I believe, But when you have been fellow-shipped and study and learn the scriptures... Do you not really know, and find the answer within, touched by the Spirit? I don't deny any Church or Religion... It isn't my calling and you can find God anywhere I believe (Because He is within us) I just don't like any Church or anyone trying to deny me my Faith... I know it's silly, Because no one can deny me that, But when it comes to discussing this, This is the point I'm trying to make. Only God could deny himself from me, and My God wouldn't do that! Nether would I deny Him!
I hope thats clear enough.... I just don't know what else to say | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:52:08 PM |
Cali, Not all Christians believe that Christ is God in the flesh, I for one am a Christian... and believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
Sorry, Jack, but I HAVE to counter what you wrote, as it is a huge doctrinal error. You cannot call yourself a Christian if you do NOT believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.
The apostle John made this crystal clear in his Gospel and his later letters.
The Deity of Jesus Christ John 1:1-5 (NASB)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
John 1:1
The Incarnate Word--1 John:1-3 (NASB)
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
Test the Spirits 1 John 4:1-4
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
Denying the Son 1 John 2:22-23 (NASB)
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
There are MANY more scripture to support this, but I will not fill up this page with them. You have two choices: either you accept the plain written Word of God in the Bible or you do not. It's a clear choice. There is no middle ground. And we have VERY old manuscripts with significant portions of the Gospel of John to verify that the translations are true to the original text, for all of those who want to throw out the mistranslation excuse.
Jack, you are essentially are saying that there are no absolutes. But there are! God laid down absolutes. Jesus laid down absolutes when He said He is the ONLY way to the Father.
There HAS to be a standard by which truth and error is measured or you end up with a spiritual soup that has no meat in it. We do not have a spiritual smorgasbord where you get to pick and choose what you want to throw into your spiritual pot. NOT if you are going to call yourself a Christian. If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, then you cannot call yourself a Christian. The Word of God is clear on that and I would defend that statement with my blood if I had to. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 9:29:52 PM |
Sorry, Jack, but I HAVE to counter what you wrote, as it is a huge doctrinal error. You cannot call yourself a Christian if you do NOT believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. Nope, you're wrong, AGAIN. There are many Christian sects that don't believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. Just because they don't seem Christian in your myopic and prejudiced viewpoint doesn't mean they can't call themselves Christians.
Or do you want a Constitutional Amendment saying that certain people can't call themselves Christian?  | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 9:49:44 PM | You can call yourself anything you want. I could even make a few suggestions for you.
Nope, you're wrong, AGAIN. There are many Christian sects that don't believe that Jesus is God in the flesh
Those sects are called cults since they are outside of mainstream Christianity. My viewpoint is not myopic nor prejudiced, but is based on the standard held to by Christian theologians worldwide down through history.
If a person is going call themselves a Christian by BIBLICAL standards, then they must meet the requirements prescribed in the Bible. The Old Testament prophets, the Apostles John , Paul, and Timothy said it, and a WIDE range of highly educated theologians who know a lot more than either of us do have said it, so I am in very esteemed company with my "myopic" viewpoint.  | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:23:16 PM | Jesus is God in the flesh? I thought Jesus was the Son of God. How can he be the human form of God and the Son of God at the same time? Is this one of those lost in translation things or a misinterpretation of the confusing language of the Bible? If Jesus is God in the flesh, then God is Jesus. Just as if I were to say, "Here I am in the flesh."
At least evolution makes sense. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:27:21 PM | I believe Jesus is God in the flesh but not the Father God in the flesh. For some reason, there is still a distinction, because Jesus now sits at the right hand of God. They are One in Spirit and purpose, but seperate entities from what I read. Jack has already posted the passages that bear that out more clearly.
The most important thing to believe is that Jesus is The Messiah, The Christ, The Annointed One by which salvation comes. He is both Lord and Saviour. As long as He is both, that's all I need to know to consider someone a brother or sister in Christ.
Now, there is a huge problem with the idea that all religions lead back to the same God. The biggest problem is the wolf in sheeps clothing, the great deciever. A spiritual healer that I know has "Jesus" on her "higher self committee." When I refused to wholeheartedly support her belief in that along with her use of pendulims, charts, EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique), reincarnation and etc. and we got into a heated argument because of it, she tried to get us both killed by driving straight across heavy opposing traffic. It was a miracle we didn't get hit, against her wishes of course. One of the last things she told me before I left was "listen to the voices in your head". | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/6/2009 4:43:50 PM | We seem to of gotten off track a bit. (long sigh...)
You respond ONLY to the OP's topic and not to each other. I cleaned the last couple pages out of this thread, Stay on topic and quit squabbling posting to each other or the thread won't last.
So many were participating in and posting to each other I would of had to ban half the active Cali Forums. I do NOT want to do that! I have met many of the CA forum regulars and although I didnt post much in the CA forums myself I grew to know many of the regular posters here from reading your posts daily.
If you want this thread to stick then only address the OP's topic and not other posters. I will be tracking this one... If I have to do another massive clean I will assume it will keep happening after I have warned everyone and I will delete this thread.
Cowboy
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:41:32 PM | Elmenreich said
my problem with the New Testament stems not in Jesus, but in Paul. The New Testament is more about Paul than it is about Jesus, with Acts and Paul's epistles taking up more space than the Gospels.
Makes me wonder if he has actually READ Paul's letters,?They are ALL about Jesus! His epistles (letters) form the foundation of Christian theology and Christian ethics. He explained justification from sin in a way that still makes learned theologians marvel at its depth and simplicity.
The Apostle Paul defined what Jesus accomplished by His sacrifice, explaining how He fulfilled the law and all that the prophets prophesied about the Messiah.
Martin Luther described Paul's letter to the Romans as the "most important piece in the New Testament. It is purest Gospel. The main theme of this letter is the Salvation offered through the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1:16-17). The Book of Romans is a powerful exposition of the doctrine of the supremacy of Christ and of faith in Christ as the source of salvation.
"Romans 5:1-Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
He so eloquently wrote in Galatians 2:20
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
and he said in Philippians 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."
To dismiss Paul is to dismiss Jesus Christ, as Paul's entire identity was IN Christ. You cannot separate one from the other. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:26:17 PM |
On the Oct 5th entry, the author suggests that sin is not so much really about keeping or breaking rules, laws, mores or standards related to morals and ethics as we commonly define them in most cases. But rather the entry suggests that sin is more strictly only really just about those times when we ourselves give ourselves "promotions" into thinking that we are a god ourselves, and thereby falling out of proper hierarchical alignment under our Creator.
What this is saying to me is that there is breaking Rules..... Things that are determined by some sort of Social law that would hold a community in Check... This Idea of giving ourselves a "promotion" in thinking we are a god ourselves is what we have been discussing. The fact that we are determining for others how to live their lives according to one idea or another?
A Society needs law and order to survive... creating laws. But breaking those laws are not necessarily a sin. I shouldn't J-Walk... But I don't think it's a sin. Sure, what one would consider a sin, probably would fall under some law as well.
In a Religious Community, their are also laws created and called sins... That are not even a law in the general community.
Example, Drinking Coffee is a Sin in one religion, but not a sin in another.... and definitely not a sin in the General Community.
So when it comes to sin, either you accept what you believe to be a sin, based on the Bible or your faith, including your choice of religion. But does the fact remain that what you consider to be a sin based on your religious belief... Have to be the same as someone who has a different Belief? Who is right? Who is wrong? Is this where some "Promotions" are occurring?
Actually, the faithful dwell in Christ, truth be told.
A response to finding God within us, In our Hearts.... Well, I agree that the faithful can also dwell in Christ. But, also God dwells in us. How else would we know sin?
"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God
dwelleth in him, and he in God."
1 John 4:15, KJV
So who determines sin? God right? And how do we determine what God says? We read the Bible right? One can understand what God believes to be Sin by trying to understand Him, His Plan, and this World.
If one group can poison His message, so can another. Again... are we than talking about this "Promotion?"
The above verse out of 1 John Chapter 4 says a lot, So... How does One confess that Jesus is the Son of God? You can't just say you believe... You confess (Know) that you believe Jesus is the Son of God. And when you confess this to yourself, you are also confessing it to God. Now you dwell with God... and He will touch your heart... and you will know sin. You will know right from wrong.
I believe in reading the Bible... Not cherry picking it to understand it... I'm not going to cut and paste the whole Bible here obviously... But 1 John Chapter 4 is short and a good read... I believe the more you love... the less you sin... seems obvious right!
1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19We love him, because he first loved us.
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
verse 18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
How can there be sin... where there is only love?
Sure... we are human... and not made perfect in love... so we will sin. The idea is to work towards that perfect love.
verse 3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
The antichrist is already in the world... Does this tell us.... Jesus Christ is Good..... And the AntiChrist is Evil.... We already have Good and Evil? We are tempted... all of the time. Temptation is with us, Sin is with us. If you fill your heart with God's love... you won't leave room for temptation... Sin.
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/6/2009 10:13:35 PM | Well, the key to understanding love is knowing what agape love means and 1Cor 13 tells us it is an action. The feelings of love will come but the actions are the horse and the feelings are the cart.
Sin is anything that seperates us from the love of God. James goes into the details of temptation and how that turns into sin. God warned Cain not to let his anger turn into sin. The feelings of temptation are the horse while the actions of sin are the cart. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:34:27 AM | Nice post, Jack. I don't agree 100% with what you said, but I DO agree with your main point completely.
The idea is to work towards that perfect love.
That perfect love does not come from us, it comes from Christ IN us. He is the one who loves. As we get out of the way and let Him live through us, then we will walk in perfect love. It is HIS love, not ours. The more we yield to and walk in the Spirit, the more His love is manifested through us. The more we yield our will to Him, the less problem sin becomes in our life.
Romans 5:5 "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."
Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:54:54 AM | I want to correct what I said above in relation to Jack's post. I reread it again, more carefully this time, and want to take back my comment that I do not agree with him on some points. I DO AGREE. He is right on in this post.
Jack's writing style sometimes makes it necessary to read his posts more carefully than others, but I do not mind because what he says is worth the effort.
My humble apologies, Jack....  | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/7/2009 9:58:48 AM |
To dismiss Paul is to dismiss Jesus Christ, as Paul's entire identity was IN Christ. You cannot separate one from the other. See, this is EXACTLY the sort of bullshit I hate about Christianity. People try to deify Paul, when he did more to destroy Jesus' message than any human being who ever lived. Jesus worshiped God; He studied the Bible. He wanted people to worship God, not Himself. He wanted people to follow the Covenant of Moses.
Oh, and I don't believe that Jesus was God. He was just a human being. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/7/2009 10:15:00 AM | Paul never received nor sought worship of himself. He messages are filled with devotion, reverence and love for Christ.
Oh, and I don't believe that Jesus was God. He was just a human being.
OK, I'll play along with you. By what power did Jesus heal the sick, multiply bread, cast out demons and raise the dead? And why can't YOU do these things? | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/7/2009 1:06:33 PM |
See, this is EXACTLY the sort of bullshit I hate about Christianity. People try to deify Paul, when he did more to destroy Jesus' message than any human being who ever lived. Jesus worshiped God; He studied the Bible. He wanted people to worship God, not Himself. He wanted people to follow the Covenant of Moses. Oh, and I don't believe that Jesus was God. He was just a human being.
Show me proof of this. There is so much proff against what you believe from other sources besides Paul. Look at the writings of Peter, James, John as well as Hebrews and the Gospels. They totally refute what you say.
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/7/2009 1:15:29 PM |
OK, I'll play along with you. By what power did Jesus heal the sick, multiply bread, cast out demons and raise the dead? And why can't YOU do these things? I don't think He did those things. I mean, how come no one who saw Him do these things ever wrote it down? How come we have to hear about it from people who lived 40 or so year after he died, and were writing in a language Jesus didn't even speak?
And how do you KNOW I can't heal the sick, multiply bread, cast out demons and raise the dead? I never said that I could or couldn't, just that Jesus couldn't. Given my knowledge of modern medicine, I probably can heal the sick and raise the dead better than Jesus could. I learned how to when I got my first aid certification. It's called "CPR."
For all we know, Jesus could have been a charlatan, with a traveling magic show, like those Southern Baptist ministers on TV who rip people off and then sleep with prostitutes. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/7/2009 1:44:05 PM | And how do you KNOW I can't heal the sick, multiply bread, cast out demons and raise the dead? I never said that I could or couldn't, just that Jesus couldn't. Given my knowledge of modern medicine, I probably can heal the sick and raise the dead better than Jesus could. I learned how to when I got my first aid certification. It's called "CPR."
...Okay,...so YOU be God this week. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 11/7/2009 1:48:23 PM |
Paul never received nor sought worship of himself. He messages are filled with devotion, reverence and love for Christ.
But hatred for many of Christ's beliefs, such as the Covenant of Moses. Paul believed that human beings didn't have to follow the rules of God, as long as they spread Christianity. | |
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