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 Author Thread: Oct 5th entry in "My Utmost for His Highest"....defining sin
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/10/2009 11:29:14 PM
Ok Spagett! We all have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, so why not just roll the dice on what you think it really means? I just believe acknowledging the Holy Spirit is a good thing, so that is what I do.
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 1:36:12 AM
Here is a little info on the Synoptic Gospels if anyone is interested and haven't heard of the Q document.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_document


Scholars[who?] generally date the synoptic gospels as having been written after the epistles of Paul and before the gospel according to John, thus between 60 and 115 AD. As to the specific dates for each book, this largely depends on (or supports) the particular hypothesis used to account for the books' textual relationship.
A student of Polycarp, a disciple of John, wrote that Polycarp taught that Matthew wrote his Gospel first, Mark wrote Peter’s Teachings, Luke wrote Paul’s teachings and John wrote his last. Papias, also a disciple of John, confirms the order of the writing. Clement I wrote that Mark wrote the teachings of Peter and when Peter learned of it, he gave it his blessing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels

This is based on a student of Polycarp... who was a disciple of John. But was the Gospel of John written by the Apostle John?

The Gospel of John was more Gnostic... and it is believed to have been either mistranslated or even tampered with??? who knows? But the last verse seemed added later, scholars say it is written different than the rest of John... The verse of the story of Peter and the others catching 153 fish, along with telling Peter to mind his sheep... Also there is thought that the doubting Thomas story was added to teach faith... not to question the authority of the church. Did Jesus come back a second time to teach Thomas this lesson? Also in John at the crucifixion, Those who were there were first named Mary, Mary, Salome and Mary Magdalene... it was custom to name those who were present and then tell what happened. The beloved really should have been one of those women... Mary Magdalene? I've read that there was another version of John that was even more gnostic. Even some believe it was Mary Magdalene, who was the author... this would be bad news for the early church who did not believe women should have any authority.

The Fourth Gospel, like the three Synoptic Gospels, is anonymous in that it does not bear its author's name. The title, "According to John," was attached when the four Gospels were gathered together and began to circulate as one collection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John

It was Pope Gregory in 591 AD that made Mary Magdalene a sinner (adulteress) Some say that this was a lesson on forgiveness and repentance... some say it was more of something else... Denying the Feminine. Still... It is the authorities of a religion twisting the truth to maintain control over others....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene

Let me say, I'm not knocking anything.... just looking at it with open eyes.... Too me I believe God would want his son to experience this life. I believe God's plan is based on love... and that the union between the masculine and feminine is key to his plan. For Jesus to find love in a woman does not make him less, but more.

This is part of the biggest con of men..... In my opinion.... Jesus, over and over said he was the son of God... He never said he was God... He did make comments that he was one in purpose with his father. It was the early churches translation based on a scripture to create the Trinity... The Nicene Creed... at the Council of Nicaea... They didn't didn't base this on the New Testament.... they based it on the parts of the writings they believed in ignoring the rest. The complete Canon wasn't even compiled for about 50 years.

You really need to read the whole Bible and try and make heads or tails out of it for yourself... not go by the footnotes and highlighted scripture that is picked out for you.... People should look inside... and find their own faith.... and it comes in different sizes and shapes... It isn't pre-packed and waiting for you in some stoned building.

But... again I say this, because I don't have the answers... I believe what I believe for me.... what ever works for you, how ever you get that love in your heart... that's a good thing... in a church or not... I think you can find a lot in a church... Just don't be the sheep that is grazing and getting fat for the wolf!
Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 2:27:58 AM
Hmmm...

Original sin. Let's review.

Eve blames God's former right hand man--the Head Honcho of the Arch Angels and the Vice-President of All Existence before his dumb-ass palace coup attempt on God (WTF? Everyone knows God is Omnipotent, even the greenhorn cherub that just started in the mailroom)--hello, duh, why did God who doesn't make mistakes appoint that moron who then gets re-named Satan and witness-protection programmed as the landlord of He11, so back to Eve blaming Mr. Moron/Head of the Arch Angels who's now a friggin talking snake (WTF?) and appearing to Eve and tempting her to eat some fruit that was forbidden by God even though He designed her digestive tract to profit from eating fruit and He grew bazillions of bushels of the stuff in the Garden of Eden that Eve gets her azz tossed out of, and her old man Adam's too, and they get stamped as the Original Sinners and besmirched your soul and my soul and now we have to struggle every moment of our lives against our very own nature to get to Heaven someday. And the stakes are unfairly high. (Eternity.) Way to go, Eve. You're making Mr. Moron/Arch Angel/Satan look better all the time. And Original Sin looks like the Great Spin Doctor in the Sky is trying to cover up a big sloppy mess He created by creating stupid and weak underlings and is now blaming mankind for being the very doofus that He made us to be.

Instead of fearing God as a vengeful, insecure, incompetent, sadistic being, my God just wants me to Do the Right Thing. There are no 10 Commandments, no holy books, no preaching to me or by me, no rules to do my thinking for me, since part of my karma to be worked out is that I have to establish the level and standard of morality and accountability that I have to be held to. And held to by me. I am my own judge come my judgment day. God will sit there and ask me if I think I have more to learn.

Perhaps sin and the resultant suffering to others it causes is the less polite half of Karma being transacted for the mandatory balance present at all times in the Universe. If you believe in an afterlife of eternity, you must believe in a forelife of eternity, too, since time and space are two sides of the same coin. But heaven and hell don't exist inside of spacetime, thus eternity (no beginning or end to time) is the default condition of All Existance and our life and time on earth is transitory and probably nothing more that one tiny marker on a timeline of infinite length and duration and of many, many markers.

So I wouldn't get too worked up about everything we do or don't do in our current life is going to determine our eternity. It's much more likely that the life we are currently living is just one tiny grain of sand on an entire beach full of grains of sand. Ah, but the controlling power of fear. Fear of eternal punishment instead of reward. People give their entire 80 some years of life over to it.

And before anyone instructs me that I don't understand because I don't have faith, you have it backwards. I do indeed have faith, faith that God is loving and will wait that eternity for me to evolve and finally succeed by reaching the level of... well... Godliness that I am working ever so slowly toward. He did create me as He did, so I am not flawed, just reaching to define then live fully my own morality.

It is vengance and fear that I have no faith in.
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:37:26 AM
Dude, whatever works for you. I try to leave vengeance up to God. I also recognize the awesome power, intelligence & omnipotence of God and fear His wrath, which He is fully capable of, while I seek His love, which is a much better thing to find.

Jack, I have always been curious about the canon of the Bible which occured hundreds of years after Jesus was actually on earth. If Jesus wanted that to happen, don't you think the Apostles would have done it?

While I trust wiki for a lot of things, when it comes to agenda mired subjects, not so much. Interesting stuff though.
 allthingscnsdrd

Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 55
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:40:59 AM

Instead of fearing God as a vengeful, insecure, incompetent, sadistic being, my God just wants me to Do the Right Thing. There are no 10 Commandments, no holy books, no preaching to me or by me, no rules to do my thinking for me, since part of my karma to be worked out is that I have to establish the level and standard of morality and accountability that I have to be held to. And held to by me. I am my own judge come my judgment day. God will sit there and ask me if I think I have more to learn.


This is GREAT!

I always thought God was like George Burns in "Oh God." "You want a miracle, make one"... "I gave you a heart and a brain."

My miracle is being blessed with parking spot angels.
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 2:23:10 PM
Getting the best angel in the parking lot? Interesting :-D
 Elmenreich

Joined: 9/23/2009
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 4:14:03 PM
I also have some issues with the 'validity' of the NT, I mean it was written at least 70+ years after JC (If he was real).
You're suggesting that the New Testament was written at least in the second-century CE? I'm not saying Jesus was necessarily real or that the events of the New Testament were necessarily real, but you just don't know what you're talking about. The Synoptic Gospels believed to be written just after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, or about 40 years after the death of Christ, mostly likely based on an oral or written document that existed previously. There are theories of the books being written latter, but to suggest that it's impossible they were written earlier than 100 CE is simply wrong.
 Spagett!

Joined: 8/9/2009
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 4:59:07 PM

The Synoptic Gospels believed to be written just after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, or about 40 years after the death of Christ

IF (And that is a big if, considering your other posts.) you are correct, then I apologize. (Of course I am checking right now.)


However, 18th Century scholars increasingly questioned the traditional view of composition, and today most of modern critical scholarship hesitates to say that Matthew wrote this Gospel which bears his name, preferring instead to describe the author as an anonymous Jewish Christian, writing towards the end of the first century...

The date of the gospel is not precisely known. The majority of scholars date the gospel between the years 70 and 100.[34][35]

Most contemporary scholars describe the author as an anonymous Jewish Christian writer, who wrote the Gospel of Matthew found in the Bible around the year 80. According to scholars this writer used the Gospel of Mark and Q Source to compose his gospel. [4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_Matthew

There is a source, here is where they got their info from:


4: a b c Amy-Jill Levine (2001), p.372-373
34: Brown 1997, p. 172
35: Ehrman 2004, p. 110 and Harris 1985 both specify a range c. 80-85; However, Gundry 1982, Hagner 1993, and Blomberg 1992 argue for a date before 70AD.


Still, the proof is lacking regarding they being written by eye-witnesses.

(I was going to ask for a source, but you don't like giving those either.)

Here is some more:

The writings of Ignatius show "a strong case ... for [his] knowledge of four Pauline epistles and the Gospel of Matthew"[36], which gives a terminus ad quem of c. 110. The author of the Didache (c 100) probably knew it as well.[32] Some scholars see the prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem (e.g. in Matthew 22:7) as suggesting a date of authorship after the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD:[37] however Bishop John A. T. Robinson argues that the lack of a passage indicating the fulfillment of the prophecy suggest a date before that[38]. Matthew does not mention the death of James in 62 AD. It also lacks any narrative on the persecutions of the early Christians by Nero.

Same source.
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 5:14:22 PM

Jack, I have always been curious about the canon of the Bible which occured hundreds of years after Jesus was actually on earth. If Jesus wanted that to happen, don't you think the Apostles would have done it?

While I trust wiki for a lot of things, when it comes to agenda mired subjects, not so much. Interesting stuff though.


I do believe that the disciples and followers of Christ talked about him and the things he taught.... probably even before the crucifixion... Just like we talk about things we learn today, people share what they learn. The Apostles and Disciples were told to go out and pass on his message. There were many stories that were told. There were even the Gnostic teachings... The Dead Sea Scrolls date back to 150BC to AD70, they are actually older than the gospels. There is one of the Copper scrolls that talks about a leather scroll of similar information, talking about gold, silver and other scrolls, along with 60 odd chambers containing hidden treasure under the Temple of Solomon. We can believe these things or not... but the facts that they exist is hard to deny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls

And I put these Wiki links up because they seem to be a good place to start... they link to other things easily.... but there is way more than what is on Wiki... just look it up... and I don't believe everything I read... Not on the internet... as well as not in any book.... everything has the possibility of being altered or contaminated. I believe in the teachings of Christ... but not the Bible word for word.... Jesus taught in parables... The Bible even if it was translated accurately and not diluted by someone's desires to make it what works for them... still, you need to read the meaning of the verse... Not the words of the verse.

We can accept the Bible to be the word of God and the teachings of Jesus, while acknowledging that it was scribed and translated by man.... knowing not to hang your hat on every word. We can also know that some writings may have been deliberately left out for the reason others didn't want everyone to know them.... Again this doesn't take away the message that Jesus taught... It only becomes a problem for those who wish to convince people to believe the way they do.

I believe people should work on having Faith... not Blind Faith. God wants us to find him and the Love he has for us... Not the Love someone else is telling you is his Love. When someone tells you that going against what I am saying is Gods Love, by you searching it out on your own.. is a lack of Faith... It is a lack of faith in them... not God. There is nothing in wanting to learn more about God, through the teachings of others... But they don't own your Faith... or God's Love... It is a gift given to all who open themselves for it.
 cncgandolf

Joined: 7/29/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 5:28:29 PM
"Even some believe it was Mary Magdalene, who was the author... this would be bad news for the early church who did not believe women should have any authority."

Mary Magdalene would not have had the education to write, so the authors need to be people with writing skills. She might have told the story to someone who had writing skills.

The original Christians (First century Catholics) had both married priests and female priests. Ireland doesn't catch up with the change in rules until circa 9th to 11th century Ireland ... hence the saint I am named for was a priest Abbess. Some Irish Catholic churches still have married priests. The Eastern Orthadox schism continued the tradition of married priests.

When considering biblical history be aware of the secular culture of he time. Which of the apostles and disciples came from backgrounds that would have included the ability to write is a key question in identifying the authors.
 Spagett!

Joined: 8/9/2009
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 5:43:53 PM

...is a key question in identifying the authors.

I do apologize for bringing that up, I did not mean to de-rail the thread. Remember, I said I am willing to accept the authorship for the sake of argument in this instance.

I think that "defining sin" is a very important thing to do for any Christian. How often was it stressed that you learn?

Lastly, just because I am agnostic, does not mean I discount Christianity (or any other religion). I find them all equally fascinating, not to mention thought provoking.

PS, wonderful to see a thread where different ideals are coexisting so well! JC would be (or is) proud, at least IMO!
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 6:02:44 PM

Mary Magdalene would not have had the education to write, so the authors need to be people with writing skills. She might have told the story to someone who had writing skills.


When considering biblical history be aware of the secular culture of he time.


You can research and find all you want on Mary Magdalene... The fact is... she wasn't the Prostitute that the church made her into.... and just because people want to believe that still... It doesn't make it true, Even those (The Catholic Church) who made her the prostitute have changed their story on that... Mary had no connection to her, the prostitute just showed up prior to Mary.

From most everything I read.... It makes since that Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany were one in the same... sister to Lazarus and Martha. They were wealthy and educated... and Mary could have been very spiritual and a great teacher herself...

So to say she wasn't educated is not true.... She may not have been... but there is more evidence that she was.


Not a Prostitute
Mary of Magdala is perhaps the most maligned and misunderstood figure in early Christianity. In Christian art and hagiography, Mary has been romanticized, allegorized, and mythologized beyond recognition. Since the fourth century, she has been portrayed as a prostitute and public sinner who, after encountering Jesus, repented and spent the rest of her life in private prayer and penitence. Paintings, some little more than pious pornography, reinforce the mistaken belief that sexuality, especially female sexuality, is shameful, sinful, and worthy of repentance. Yet the actual biblical account of Mary of Magdala paints a far different portrait than that of the bare-breasted reformed harlot of Renaissance art.

First Witness to the Resurrection
Nowhere in scripture is Mary of Magdala identified as a public sinner or a prostitute. Instead, scripture shows her as the primary witness to the most central events of Christian faith, named in exactly the same way (Maria e Magdalena) in each of four gospels written for diverse communities throughout the Mediterranean world. It was impossible to relate the story of the Resurrection without including "Mary, the one from Magdala."

Luke 8,1-3 tells us that Mary traveled with Jesus in the Galilean discipleship and, with Joanna and Susanna, supported his mission from her own financial resources. In the synoptic gospels, Mary leads the group of women who witness Jesus' death, burial, the empty tomb, and His Resurrection. The synoptics contrast Jesus' abandonment by the male disciples with the faithful strength of the women disciples who, led by Mary, accompany him to his death. John's gospel names Mary of Magdala as the first to discover the empty tomb and shows the Risen Christ sending her to announce the Good News of his resurrection to the other disciples. This prompted early church Fathers to name her "the Apostle to the Apostles."

That the message of the resurrection was first entrusted to women is regarded by scripture scholars as strong proof for the historicity of the resurrection accounts. Had accounts of Jesus' resurrection been fabricated, women would never have been chosen as witnesses, since Jewish law did not acknowledge the testimony of women.

Early non-canonical Christian writings show faith communities growing up around Mary's ministry, where she is portrayed as understanding Jesus' message better than did Peter and the male disciples. Scholars tell us that these writings are not about the historical persons Mary and Peter but instead reflect tensions over women's roles in the early church. Prominent leaders such as Mary and Peter were evoked to justify opposing points of view. What is not disputed is the recognition of Mary of Magdala as an important woman leader in earliest Christianity.

What Happened?
Why are contemporary Christians uninformed about Mary's faithful discipleship and prominent leadership role in the infant church? One explanation is a common misreading of Luke's gospel which tells us that "seven demons had gone out of her." (Luke 8,1-3) To first century ears, this meant only that Mary had been cured of serious illness, not that she was sinful. According to biblical scholars such as Sr. Mary Thompson, illness was commonly attributed to the work of evil spirits, although not necessarily associated with sinfulness. The number seven symbolized that her illness was either chronic or very severe.

Women Leaders Suppressed
In 312, when Constantine made Christianity the religion of the empire, the Christian community was caught in a cultural conflict as it moved from worship in house churches where women's leadership was accepted, to worship in public places where women's leadership violated Roman social codes of honor and shame. In the fourth century, male church leaders at the Council of Laodicea suppressed women leaders because of the belief that women were created subordinate to men. During this same time period, we see the memory of Mary of Magdala changing from that of a strong female disciple and proclaimer of the Resurrection to a repentant prostitute and public sinner. Scholars such as Dr. Jane Schaberg believe this was done deliberately to discourage female leadership in the church.

As knowledge of Jesus' many women disciples faded from historical memory, their stories merged and blurred. The tender anointing of Mary of Bethany prior to Jesus' passion was linked to the woman "known to be a sinner" whose tears washed and anointed Jesus' feet at Simon's house. The anointing texts combined all of these women into one generic public sinner, "Magdalen." Misidentification of Mary as reformed public sinner achieved official standing with a powerful homily by Pope Gregory the Great (540-604).

Henceforth, Mary of Magdala became known in the west, not as the strong woman leader who accompanied Jesus through a tortuous death, first witnessed his Resurrection, and proclaimed the Risen Savior to the early church, but as a wanton woman in need of repentance and a life of hidden (and hopefully silent) penitence. Interestingly, the eastern church never identified her as a prostitute, but honored her throughout history as "the Apostle to the Apostles".


This was one of hundreds of topics on Mary.

Here is another, for those who wish to spark interest and search out the truth for themselves.

Just saying.... I think there is a lot more to Mary than what the Early church wanted people to know...


Magdalene was a Christian leader, not a repentant prostitute


By Victor Greto, for The Gazette

Who is Mary Magdalene? A prostitute and sinner who repented after Jesus saved her from being stoned by a mob -- the same Mary who then saw the risen Christ first?

According to some Christians and scholars, it's time to rethink the prostitute and stoning stuff.

Mary Magdalene is becoming a role model for women who expect more important roles for themselves in their respective churches. And scholars use Mary Magdalene as a symbol of the important role of women in early Christianity, as they work out the implications of recently discovered ancient literature.

The current reform of Mary Magdalene has centuries of church and art tradition to overcome. The non-biblical image of Magdalene as a repentant prostitute is an image that had been officially sanctioned by the Roman Catholic Church in the sixth century. And it's that image that has been perpetuated by dozens of Christian paintings and movies ever since.

The misreading of Mary Magdalene, critics say, is almost as ancient as the Gospels of the New Testament themselves, if only because there are up to five different Marys in the Gospels and seven in the New Testament as a whole.

The greatest damage done to Magdalene's reputation, however, is only partly the confusion of these Marys, says Sister Evelina Belfiore, director of Catholic education for the Colorado Springs, Colo., diocese. The main problem is the way some decided to identify an unnamed woman with Magdalene in the Gospel of Luke.

In 7:37-38, Luke tells the tale of a woman, "a sinner" who goes into a dinner party and anoints Jesus' feet. The following chapter immediately introduces "Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out. . . ."

"In the early church," Belfiore says, "as people have placed her in art and legend and misinterpretation, they linked her with the sinner from the chapter before."

Take Martin Scorsese's `Last Temptation of Christ' as one of the more recent examples. In the film, based on the Nikos Kazantzakis novel, Magdalene is portrayed as a prostitute and is identified with another episode often included in the Gospel of John 8:3-11, in which Jesus stops a crowd from stoning a woman for prostitution. There is no indication in the text that either unnamed woman is Magdalene, but tradition has linked her with Magdalene.

Why?

That link, Belfiore says, came about in the early church of later centuries "and may have been associated with the oppression of women. Before that, women were ordained deaconesses. Then, there was a turnabout, excluding women from the sacred and from orders. Mary Magdalene had such a privileged role in the Gospels that it seems there was an attempt to put her in a bad light."

Which is exactly what Sister Christine Schenk says she is trying to reverse. Schenk is executive director of the Cleveland-based FutureChurch.

Two years ago, Schenk's group in conjunction with another Catholic group, Chicago-based Call to Action, launched the national observance of a July 22 feast of Mary Magdalene. It has grown from 28 prayer services last year to a reported 100 services this past July.

"The Mary Magdala project emerged," Schenk says, "because it makes contemporary biblical scholarship available, and it provides woman ministers to preside at a prayer service."

Schenk says her group is not calling for women's ordination but for "women's equal call to ministry in the Catholic Church."

Schenk said the Magdalene services include a "brief reflection on Mary of Magdala," and what she calls "the right of naming." That is, when Jesus calls Magdalene by her name in the Gospel passage John 20:17, "she recognized him" as the risen Christ, and she was called as a disciple.

Schenk thus sees Magdalene as representing a woman's call to discipleship. In the past, she says, women have internalized the idea that they weren't as holy or as good as men. The Magdalene services are "a real healing for many participants," she says.

The emergence of women in organized religion is not only a Catholic issue.The Rev. Patricia Westlake of Trinity United Methodist Church in Colorado Springs, Colo., says she believes Magdalene was present at the Last Supper.

And she believes other female disciples were on a par with the more famous 12 male apostles. In two of his letters, St. Paul also mentions important women of the early church. "For me, the Scriptures give [women] a prominent role," Westlake says. "Jesus gave them a prominent role. It's our culture that doesn't give them a prominent role."

Feminist scholars of early Christianity see Mary Magdalene as indicative of what happened to women in general in the early church. "In the last twenty years, the history of women in ancient Christianity has been almost completely revised," writes Karen King in a recent essay about women in early Christianity. King is a professor of New Testament Studies and the History of Ancient Christianity at Harvard University's Divinity School.

King writes that the early Christian women we thought we knew have almost nothing to do with the revised portrait that scholars are just beginning to unveil. "Chief among these is Mary Magdalene," she says. "Discoveries of new texts . . . have now proven that [her reputation as a repentant prostitute] is entirely inaccurate. She was indeed an influential figure, but as a prominent disciple and leader of one wing of the early Christian movement that promoted women's leadership."

Among the newly discovered texts King is referring to is `The Gospel of Mary,' discovered at Nag Hammadi in Egypt more than a half-century ago. In that Gospel, Mary receives secret revelations from Jesus -- much to the chagrin of Peter.`The Gospel of Philip,' also discovered at Nag Hammadi, shows yet another understanding of Mary's relationship with Jesus.

"But Christ loved her more than all the disciples and used to kiss her often on the mouth," that Gospel reads. "The rest of the disciples were offended by it and expressed disapproval. They said to him, `Why do you love her more than all of us?' The savior answered and said to them, `Why do I not love you like (I love) her?' "

Scholars say they are not arguing that these are historically truer portraits than those of the New Testament Gospels. But they argue that these Gospels show there were early Christian communities that traced their beliefs back to a figure known as Mary Magdalene -- which had nothing to do with the traditional figure of a repentant prostitute.

Even those women in established religions who do not accept the non-canonical Gospels as legitimate sources see hope for women in a closer reading of the four Gospels of the New Testament. "I think she's a model for women today," Belfiore says of Magdalene. "That when Jesus spoke to Mary to go tell the other disciples he was risen, it shows that woman has a complementary role in the mission and that we need one another. It's not a man's church or a woman's church, but a church. Women have a specific dimension of the mission."


Again... you can find a lot on this subject... and sure... who are the experts that way in on this... well, this is why we need to read things and keep an open mind and heart to hopefully allow the truth to touch us.

One other observation.... Why did it take so long for the church to allow normal people to actually be able to read the bible for themselves?
 Spagett!

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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 6:05:07 PM

One other observation.... Why did it take so long for the church to allow normal people to actually be able to read the bible for themselves?

I was JUST thinking this!

I applied "defining sin" to the question, and here is what I have:

"Did the church keep them from reading, so the church could establish the definition "first"?"

And

"Is that why there are many conflicting definitions now, due to being able to study and research for ourselves?"

What a fun topic! (Now I must read all those quotes :P )
 Elmenreich

Joined: 9/23/2009
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 7:42:59 PM

Still, the proof is lacking regarding they being written by eye-witnesses.

(I was going to ask for a source, but you don't like giving those either.)
Um, I specifically said that I wasn't saying that the events of the New Testament were remotely true. I was just saying that you were wrong when you said that the Gospels were written "70+ years" after Christ.

And for the record, Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. Anyone can just go in there and change it. More to the point, if you're not very well read on a subject and you're trying to argue with someone who has read about it, Wikipedia will only show how little you know about the subject.

I'm an atheist, but Bible scholarship has long been an interest in mind. While I'm most interested in OT and inter-Testamental writings, I have read a number of books about the New Testament, along with the New Testament itself. I got interested in it after reading Asimov's Guide to the Bible years ago. It's painfully outdated and laughable at times, but it's a good starting point if you're a fan of Isaac Asimov, I guess. I'm a huge fan of Richard Eliot Friedman, although some of his work is a bit on the fringe, and he works with linguistics of the OT. Of course, the standard reference volume for serious scholars is the Anchor Bible Dictionary, which was edited by David Noel Freedman, who happens to teach at the same university as the other "Friedman."

Anyway, I do hope you become educated, one way or another.
 Spagett!

Joined: 8/9/2009
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:02:11 PM

And for the record, Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. Anyone can just go in there and change it. More to the point, if you're not very well read on a subject and you're trying to argue with someone who has read about it, Wikipedia will only show how little you know about the subject.

Could you tell me how they edited the books that the quotes were from? Oh wait, you are just using another logical fallacy (Moving the Goalpost, aka Raising the Bar)


Anyway, I do hope you become educated, one way or another.

Ditto

And, why do you insist on de-railing the thread? It is about the "Definition of sin", or did you just come in here to attack me?
 Elmenreich

Joined: 9/23/2009
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:06:41 PM
No, I was just pointing out that you were wrong, and that you were using questionable sources to back your argument. I wouldn't want someone to read this thread and be taken in by your nonsense about the Gospels being written "70+ years" after Christ. We'll never know when exactly it was written, but to automatically assume that it was written in the second century CE is false. In short, you were wrong.
 Spagett!

Joined: 8/9/2009
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:23:20 PM

I wouldn't want someone to read this thread and be taken in by your nonsense about the Gospels being written "70+ years" after Christ.

Which is your opinion, at least I post proof! You name books, how about some quotes, page numbers? Even wikipedia does that, are you less of a source than wiki? (Never mind answering these, I am done letting you derail this thread)

Honestly, do you HAVE to get the "last word" in?

What are your opinion's on "defining sin", or did you just come in here to attack me? Oh, you answered that: "Just came in to attack, no opinion on the topic."

Again other folks, I am sorry. This thread was doing really well, I don't want this fellow to continue to pollute this thread, so I will no longer post. Thank you others for being understanding, and not insulting. +1 for Christianity -1 for Atheism
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:46:46 PM
Look we give links to sites like Wiki because it's easy... and it gives you somewhere to start... (something to read) Any other site/links or books are based on that authors perceptions as well... including Asimov's Guide to the Bible (who if I'm not mistaken is a big SciFi guy) and Friedman's "Who wrote the Bible" is his take on it.... No different than Graham Simmans books or any others...

Elmenreich
Nobody has told anyone that the wiki links are gospel... just a place to look on-line... the good thing about Wiki is that it links to other places... And you can google things you have read. I have found it a great starting point for on-line research.

I have a lot of books and love reading them as well... But they are a little harder to quote than pulling up a link. I probably have reread the New Testament about 5 times at least this year.... But I am doing research for my book.... and it is an interest of mine, along with the history of religion.

To jump on someone for quoting wiki as their source here is silly... Besides.... sure the Gospels are thought to have been written somewhere from around what? AD65 to AD125? or something like that?... his comment wasn't that out of line to be jumped on.... And could be true.... we just don't know that for sure... and it's more likely they were written at different times through that 65-125 time period... but still... we don't know for sure. He could be as right as you are "SURE" he is wrong!

But honestly it has no baring in the conversation.... when it comes to defining sin, and trying to understand the whole scope of it, I know we "I" got into the discussion of Original Sin, and the roll Augustine played. Which started a debated about how the Canonized Bible actually came about. Some would think we got off topic.... But what if, what we have been told all these years were a con? The Original Sin, the Trinity, How we see Mary Magdalene... If things were ... lets say hijacked by some power grabbing group.... Wouldn't Jesus or God... want us to learn the truth? I'm not denying anything... just seems there are things that makes me want to question what has been going on.

It was Women teaching spiritually... that was part of the reason the Cathars were exterminated... that and among other things, the Church wasn't collecting (tithe/rent/money) from them.
 Elmenreich

Joined: 9/23/2009
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 8:59:26 PM
How do you propose we know for sure that the Gospels were written after 100 CE or "70+ years after Christ"?
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 9:19:25 PM

How do you propose we know for sure that the Gospels were written after 100 CE or "70+ years after Christ"?


Really... you can't just let that go?
 califboomergirl

Joined: 11/22/2006
Msg: 71
Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:20:00 PM
The topic in THIS thread is "Defining Sin".

It is most positively a sin to belabor a point until you have bored your audience to tears.


(checking on the reference now )


However the Apostle Paul did say "Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. "
1 Corinthians 10:12

Modern Translation: Don't be so c**k sure of yourself.. THAT could very well be a sin...
 mz taken

Joined: 11/30/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:33:32 PM
I see that my input is met with silent ears.
interesting.

why?
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 73
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 10:40:04 PM
Personally I think rabit trails are entertaining when the topic itself isn't all that enlightening. Defining sin. Ok, the biggies are the 10 Commandments which are don'ts and Jesus says they all should be done as a result of agape love for God and our neighbors. So doing the don'ts and don'ting the do's is sin.

Back to the rabbit trail. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed beyond the shadow of a doubt, with plenty of manuscripts found before 400 BC (how they date them I don't know) that the OT has indeed been preserved very well, so it is not in question. As far as the NT is concerned, anyone that has any intelligence knows that the further out you can "prove" the gospels were written the less likely they are to have been written by the Apostles (Matthew and John) or their close associates (Mark with Peter and Luke with Paul) becuase of acceptable life spans. Once again, since there are no dates & time stamps it becomes an agenda based guessing game.
 cncgandolf

Joined: 7/29/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/11/2009 11:35:35 PM
"I think that "defining sin" is a very important thing to do for any Christian. How often was it stressed that you learn?"

In the church and family I was raised in the definition of sin was the willful turning away from God ... rejecting God. I have rejected religions - but not God. I have misunderstood God's guidance and will for me, but I have never rejected God. While thinking and wanting to be doing God's will I have managed to be willful and mess up my life, but I never rejected God. I've gotten well and truly angry and ticked off at God, but I have never turned away or rejected God.

However, that might be due to having my first life altering spiritual experience at the age of 13 such that my relationship has ever since been one of experience vs faith alone. Impossible for me to reject God. I can only mess my life up by listening imperfectly.

As to Mary Magdalene being educated and able to write due to being wealthy, that brings an assumption that wealthy people could write at that time. Wealth or lack of wealth was not the reason for writing or not back then. Few people were scribes.

As to the church allowing people to read the bible, that is a protestant misunderstanding of Catholicism. We've always read the Bible. I grew up with the version that was written in both Latin and English. We were encouraged to read it. We were cautioned against reading it as if it was written in our current culture and meanings.
 AceOfSpace

Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 75
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:29:22 AM

I can't imagine having to fear an ideal to gain anything.

that proverb, imo, is a nasty way to put down those that think differently and not in a higher power.

again, I guess that my denseness just won't allow the notion of "fear" as a positive force in my life.

mighty christian way of thinking.


Well, Mz, perhaps it was just too close to the mark.

There's a difference between humility and fear. When we recognize our human limitations and individual shortcomings it can be scary. Faith allows us to keep doing our best just the same. I don't think it much matters how someone finally gets honest, as long as they do.
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