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 Author Thread: Oct 5th entry in "My Utmost for His Highest"....defining sin
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 76
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:42:41 AM
We need to look at the condition of our heart toward God and each other. Is it soft and plyable or hard and impossible to penetrate?

You can not have an intimate relationship with anyone if you have a hard heart.

Humility towards God isn't about how weak and limited we are. It's about how great He is. He made us, so we are worth something to Him. Saying or believing we are worthless to Him is an insult to Him as well as us. However, without Him we are worthless :-D
 AceOfSpace

Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 77
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 9:20:24 AM

Saying or believing we are worthless to Him is an insult to Him as well as us. However, without Him we are worthless :-D


I don't quite follow this. The way I see it, either we have innate worth or we don't.
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 78
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 11:35:40 AM
Lets look at this from one hypothesis... a pretty common viewpoint. Am I sure this is what happened?.. Of course not... Does anyone really know? And to try and learn what Christ taught and how he lived, the exact dates of when things were written are not that important in my view.

Augustine of Hippo believed the Gospel of Matthew came first but scholars believe it was Mark that came first around AD70, that Luke and Acts came around AD80, then Matthew at the end of the First Century followed by John around AD110 in Asia Minor. Revelations came around AD96. Then you also have to wonder what is this Q document... and who wrote it when?

The New Testament starts with Matthew, the 1st Chapter is genealogy and the conception of Mary, then the second chapter is that of the visiting Magi (Wise men) Then their trip to Egypt. Chapter three jumps to John the Baptist and Jesus Baptism.

So we learn that Mary and Elizabeth are close cousins, that Jesus and John the Baptist than also should be close??? Then when Jesus is around two... living in a house Magi of the east visit (Who knows if there were three?) It is they came from the east... so, more than one yes.... a list of three gifts doesn’t mean there were three... <<But just something curious.... They leave in a different direction to go home to avoid Herod... as does Joseph take Mary and Jesus into Egypt.
Now, Matthew was a money changer, Tax collector when he meets Jesus and becomes a follower sometime around AD26-28? So we assume that he learned about these things while traveling with Jesus, either by him or perhaps family?
And the Gospel according to Matthew written almost at the turn of the second century,... was more than likely scribed by one of his followers... or at the very least someone who listened to Matthew preach. Or even heard from others who repeated the words of Matthew.... We don’t know.

Now the first gospel that is thought to have been written is that of Mark and it starts with John the Baptist. And gets right into the ministry of Jesus.

It is Luke that goes more into detail of Zacharias and Elizabeth and the closeness of Mary and her conception. This is were the shepherd came to the manger, where Joseph had to travel from Nazareth back to Bethlehem for the census. Jesus is circumcised and it says here they return home to Nazareth and it says that the parents travelled every year to Jerusalem for Passover, that when Jesus was twelve years old he went to the feast. Did this mean he didn’t go every year with his parents? Is something implied? But when he was around 2 years old, they were visited by the Magi in Matthew's... in Bethlehem and they fled into Egypt until it was safe after the death of Herod. How could they have returned home to Nazareth after his circumcision if they were still living in Bethlehem around two years later?

This isn’t a contradiction of Jesus... just a contradiction of what was written about him.... It just means that we should take the lessons from the Bible, the things Jesus taught to heart.. And not the words written. Even Jesus taught in Parables... A way to teach the meaning of something without focusing on the words... You can't pull out one verse in a Chapter to create the meaning... it is incomplete without the rest of the message.

Even if John or Matthew... themselves wrote down these words with their own hands, they were not there to witness Jesus until they met him around AD26 or so.

As far as Mary Magdalene.... 2 things... I never said she was smart and educated because she was wealthy... I said she may have been wealthy... and I believe she may have been educated... Do I think she scribed her own books? I don’t know? But the same with the other gospels... they probably were scribed by someone other than the person telling the stories. My point on Mary Magdalene... is for those who say she couldn’t have wrote anything because she was uneducated... is that, How do you know? Peter was a fisherman, same with a lot of followers... Matthew collected taxes... so he probably himself could write you would think... But I would think a wealthy woman who was raised by a very educated father, might be educated... you would think even more so than a fisherman brought up by another fisherman... Just an idea. We don’t know... and back than there were groups, especially those in the circle Jesus came from who I believe thought more of women. Again... who knows... but from what I have read... it seemed like it to me.

edit: I just wanted to add... If you notice, these Gospels mainly start around the ministry of John the Baptist in some way, Jesus' first disciples were disciples of John... I read somewhere, that even Mary Magdalene was a follower of John, if you look at the genealogy of these families how they are connected through the line of David... and the MaCcabee line that most disciples were cousins and related someway... this would have given them this early knowledge of Christ's birth perhaps.
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 79
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 1:12:11 PM

I don't quite follow this. The way I see it, either we have innate worth or we don't.


Anything can start out valuable, but if there is an internal breakdown of some sort, it can easily become worthless.
 califboomergirl

Joined: 11/22/2006
Msg: 80
Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 1:18:56 PM
Sin does not change our worth to God. His love is unconditional and He loves mankind, created in His image, with an unchanging love. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" . But, sin does cut off our ability to come into His presence or to receive from him and relate to Him.
 allthingscnsdrd

Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 81
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 1:22:19 PM
I think God loves me just the way I am. I feel it's parental in a sense. I can mess up and although he might be frustrated, he knows I'm going to learn and continue to do better. I simply can not wrap my head around all that hell and damnnation.
 o4

Joined: 4/7/2007
Msg: 82
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 1:38:03 PM
Wow, I have a lot of reading to catch up on suddenly!

^Some of this depends upon how one defines "hell". If one defines hell as "life without a relationship to God", then it becomes self-causing if one does not relate to him.
 allthingscnsdrd

Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 83
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 1:46:12 PM
^ I'm referring to religions who state that I'll go to hell if I don't do what they say.

Each man's hell is a personal definition. My hell could be your heaven and vice versa...:)

Fact of the matter is, I don't believe in hell. I think we're all souls learning the ways of the world. Hell is a place designed by humans to control others. My God wants only whats best for me and as a parent figure, would never allow me to be dammed to a place so evil. The whole concept freaks me out.
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 84
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 2:10:51 PM

sin does cut off our ability to come into His presence or to receive from him and relate to Him.


"John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

here Jesus is saying that no man can come unto him.... except it were given to them by God.

To me this is saying that God will touch us individually to know the truth and light which is his son Jesus Christ.

also "John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

All of the Chapters need to be read to get the complete understanding... One of the best is John 8. I believe here it explains that Jesus is the Son of God, separate... not a trinity... John 8 17-18 for instance says ... 17. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men are true. 18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. To read John 8 you would get a sense of what Jesus is teaching, besides him being the son of God, but also a teaching that collates with sin... If you believe in Jesus being the son of God you believe in the truth... if you deny Christ as the son of God, you are than sinful.... verse 34 goes on to say.... "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." 35. And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever. It continues on to where in verse 37 finishes with "because my word has no place in you." Jesus is talking about why they want to kill him... They are sinning because they are not believing his word... It isn't because they are just sinners... It's because they are making a wrong dicission. This Chapter isn't the best example when it comes to discussing sin... but I believe this message has merit.
 AceOfSpace

Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 85
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 2:13:33 PM
Heaven and hell look exactly the same. What's the difference? In heaven you have friends.
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 86
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 2:24:51 PM
Personally I think that we as Humans in general focus so much on the physical, that we have lost sight of the spiritual... the 5th element.

I agree with ATC in the fact that what ever Heaven and Hell is... it will be an individual understanding of it, creating something different for each of us. If you believe Heaven is Love... and you live your life to obtain that afterlife of love... Seems to me that one would achieve it.

If on the other hand... one doesn't see it that way... they could end up living in what ever hell they put themselves into.
 o4

Joined: 4/7/2007
Msg: 87
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:03:21 PM
A man who was a really good man died and went to St Peter and St Peter said to him, "It's an honor to finaly meet you! We've been expecting you and are very excited you are here! My boss said that you were one of the truly best people we've seen in centuries, and as such, he's asked me to grant you any wish you want as you enter heaven!"

The man thought about it and asked, "Well, if my place in heaven is certainly assured, may I just see, if only for 10 seconds, what hell looks like?" And St. Peter said that this would be fine, and briskly took the man there for a look.

There in hell, the man saw a beautiful banquette table all set up with the most beautiful foods he'd ever seen! Georgeous dinners and sides, beautiful desserts, from all points of the globe, all there, anything anyone could possibly ever want, of every flavor, texture, size and made to perfection. And then he looked around the table and saw people sitting all around the edge of the room starving while looking at each other and not saying a word to each other, each one looking totally miserable and each holding a pair of six foot long chop sticks.

After considering the chop sticks and their length, he turned to St. Peter and said, "Yes, I see. This truly is hell. Thank you for letting me see. We can go now." And just as briskly, St Peter took him back to heaven.

Upon arrival at the pearly gates, St Peter took him into heaven. There the man found the same banquette table! With all the same foods!......and yes, also with the same six foot long chopsticks! But here he saw that all of the people were throwing a HUGE party and having a good time! They were eating and telling jokes and dancing and having fun and there was merryment everywhere!

He turned to St Peter and said, "I don't get it. It's the same room, the same food, the same six foot long chopsticks, and in hell they are all miserable, but here in heaven it's a party! What gives?"

And St Peter replied, "Simple. Here in heaven we help and feed each other."
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 88
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 9:54:54 AM
You know to define Sin, One must define forgiveness... Sin is in the eye of the beholder.

This story isn't about sin or forgiveness... It's more about understanding and acceptance.

It's about Love


Burned Biscuits

When I was a little boy, my mom liked to make breakfast food for dinner every
now and then. And I remember one night in particular when she had
made breakfast after a long, hard day at work. On that evening so
long ago, my mom placed a plate of eggs, sausage and extremely
burned biscuits in front of my dad. I remember waiting to see
if anyone noticed! Yet all my dad did was reach for his biscuit,
smile at my mom and ask me how my day was at school. I don't
remember what I told him that night, but I do remember watching him smear

butter and jelly on that biscuit and eat every bite!


When I got up from the table that evening, I remember
hearing my mom apologize to my dad for burning the biscuits. And
I'll never forget what he said: "Baby, I love burned biscuits."


Later that night, I went to kiss Daddy good night and I
asked him if he really liked his biscuits burned.. He wrapped
me in his arms and said, "Your Momma put in a hard day at work
today and she's real tired. And besides - a little burnt biscuit never hurt
anyone!"

You know, life is full of imperfect things....and imperfect people
I'm not the best housekeeper or cook. What I've learned over
the years is that learning to accept each other's faults - and choosing
to celebrate each other's differences - is one of the most important keys to creating a
healthy, growing, and lasting relationship.

And that's my prayer for you today. That you will
learn to take the good, the bad, and the ugly parts of your life
and lay them at the feet of God. Because in the end, He's
the only One who will be able to give you a relationship where
a burnt biscuit isn't a deal-breaker!
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 89
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 4:55:38 PM

^ I'm referring to religions who state that I'll go to hell if I don't do what they say.

Each man's hell is a personal definition. My hell could be your heaven and vice versa...:)

Fact of the matter is, I don't believe in hell. I think we're all souls learning the ways of the world. Hell is a place designed by humans to control others. My God wants only whats best for me and as a parent figure, would never allow me to be dammed to a place so evil. The whole concept freaks me out.


It's not a religion that created hell, it's the almighty God. It's not a matter of if you make a mistake or sin that you are going to hell, it's a mtter of whether or not you accept or reject your creator. Jesus put it this whay: "If you are not for me, you are against me." Does God think you are for Him or against Him?

Hell is primarily for satan and 1/3 of the angels that followed him in the rebellion against God. The stark, harsh reality is that it is an either/or scenario. You are either for God or satan. There are only 2 choices. Being for yourself is the same as being for satan. All hell does is make the choice easy IMO. God IS dead serious. You can choose blessings or cursings. God does have mercy and love available to anyone. Satan doesn't offer anything like that. That is why there is a hell.

Heaven and hell are not even close to the same. Heaven is paradise. Hell is a pit of fire.
 cncgandolf

Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 90
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 5:08:50 PM
"It's not a religion that created hell, it's the almighty God."

Reigions says god created hell. You have to agree with the religion to agree with its existence.

Personally, since my higher power is a non-materialistic higher power ... a spiritual being ... hell is not a place but a state of being. My ex had a jacket he brought home from 'nam that said "when I die I'll go straight to heaven, I've served my time in hell." To me hell is a state of hopelessness ... a state that feel irrevocable when one has turned away from god.

When that heavenly feeling is all the time = heaven
When that hellish feeling is all the time without a shred of hope of getting better = hell
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 91
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 5:45:40 PM
The Bible is NOT a religion. God is NOT a religion. They just happen to be what a lot of different religions base their religion on. The Bible itself is very clear on God,satan, heaven & hell.
 AceOfSpace

Joined: 5/28/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 6:08:46 PM
The Bible is NOT a religion. God is NOT a religion. They just happen to be what a lot of different religions base their religion on. The Bible itself is very clear on God,satan, heaven & hell.


There are a lot of assumptions built into that statement, and much interpretation involved in taking the Bible "literally." The best explanation I can come up with for the Revelation of St. John is ergot contamination in the Eucharist. Either that, or it's allegorical. But if you claim it's allegorical, you open the door to other allegorical interpretations and your entire literal interpretation claim goes out the window.

Your claim that the Bible is above religion rests and dozens of coaelscing miracles that supercede opportunities for mistakes and malfeasance in recollection, recording, transcription, translation, interpretation in the face of competing and uncompromising doctrinal views, and so on. The odds of something incorrect getting in are simply too huge to ignore.

That doesn't mean the Bible is worthless. It is obviously the best artifact the Christian politicos were able to settle upon at the time and there is a lot of value in it. But if you let somebody bamboozle you about the nature of the Bible, that is not faith. That is abdicating responsibility for your religion and allowing someone else to come between you and your relationship with God.

Ascribing divine infallibility to a human artifact is not only religion, it is making a graven image to worship. Is it not? Something to think about when you think about those 10 Commandments. Please don't take offense. You'd say the same thing yourself about any other similar artifact--such as the Sutras of Patanjali--which enumerated many of the same principles several thousand years earlier--including the idea that God comes in person to save the world from ignorance and sin and will establish a kingdom of righteousness and peace. In fact, I challenge any of you true Bible scholars to find any significant contradiction between the Sutras and the principles that Jesus put forward.
 cncgandolf

Joined: 7/29/2007
Msg: 93
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 6:10:17 PM
"Saying or believing we are worthless to Him is an insult to Him as well as us. However, without Him we are worthless :-D"

"I don't quite follow this. The way I see it, either we have innate worth or we don't."

I don't quite follow because we are God's unique creations. How can we be useless to that which created us? I'm only human and I only procreated my children, but they are worth the world to me. So, I cannot fathom being worth any less to my creator.
 allthingscnsdrd

Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 94
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 6:28:14 PM
This is the best passage I've ever read about my relationship to God:

Our deepest fear...
is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not our darkness that frightens us.
We ask ourselves, who am I to be - brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.
Your playing small doesn't serve the world.
There's nothing enlightened about shrinking
so that other people won't feel insecure around you.
We were born to manifest the glory of God that is within us.
It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone.
And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

Marianne Williams
A Return to Love
 AceOfSpace

Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 95
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 6:33:30 PM
Great quote. One correction: It's Marianne Williamson.
 JackDiamond312

Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 96
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 7:05:15 PM
^^^^ Yeah... loved the quote as well....

Actually the whole debate is good. I hope everyone reading it and participating realize we all have free will... and that Our own individual strength and belief is truth... Judging others is where one will mess up.

Great discussion.

One thing... You would think the Bible itself was very clear on those things Gg.... But it is obvious that for almost two thousand years... it still is not clear... except for one to find their own meaning and truth.
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 10:20:58 PM
There are a lot of assumptions built into that statement, and much interpretation involved in taking the Bible "literally." The best explanation I can come up with for the Revelation of St. John is ergot contamination in the Eucharist. Either that, or it's allegorical. But if you claim it's allegorical, you open the door to other allegorical interpretations and your entire literal interpretation claim goes out the window.

Your claim that the Bible is above religion rests and dozens of coaelscing miracles that supercede opportunities for mistakes and malfeasance in recollection, recording, transcription, translation, interpretation in the face of competing and uncompromising doctrinal views, and so on. The odds of something incorrect getting in are simply too huge to ignore.

That doesn't mean the Bible is worthless. It is obviously the best artifact the Christian politicos were able to settle upon at the time and there is a lot of value in it. But if you let somebody bamboozle you about the nature of the Bible, that is not faith. That is abdicating responsibility for your religion and allowing someone else to come between you and your relationship with God.

Ascribing divine infallibility to a human artifact is not only religion, it is making a graven image to worship. Is it not? Something to think about when you think about those 10 Commandments. Please don't take offense. You'd say the same thing yourself about any other similar artifact--such as the Sutras of Patanjali--which enumerated many of the same principles several thousand years earlier--including the idea that God comes in person to save the world from ignorance and sin and will establish a kingdom of righteousness and peace. In fact, I challenge any of you true Bible scholars to find any significant contradiction between the Sutras and the principles that Jesus put forward.


Ace, the Bible is not all that mysterious when it comes to anything improtant to our eternal life. It's very straight forward. Jesus may have spoken in parables, but he explained them to his disciples who wrote it all down for us.

The OT is the history of mankind from the beginning and nothing can compete with it or even come close in terms of the amount of manuscripts that are all very nearly the same, with several from as far back as over 400 BCE.

Any and all religions that have anything in common with the original don't make the original any less real or valid. There is no comparison whatsoever.

Although the Book of Revelation obviously is written in code language throughout, there are still some plain truths in it as well. There is no mistaking it when it comes to things that pertain to eternal consequences, unless you simply have a hard heart and are incapable of hearing the truth, the voice of Jesus.
 AceOfSpace

Joined: 5/28/2007
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 10:42:20 PM
Although the Book of Revelation obviously is written in code language throughout, there are still some plain truths in it as well. There is no mistaking it when it comes to things that pertain to eternal consequences, unless you simply have a hard heart and are incapable of hearing the truth, the voice of Jesus.


Whoever claims that they have the secret decoder ring is lying to you pure and simple.

They might also be lying to themselves and wholeheartedly believing their own lies, but that doesn't make their stories any less human interpretations than my ergot theory. There is one difference, however. I have no career or monetary interest in keeping you in my flock, and no emotional investment in being right. I'm not selling any books or movies about the impending apocalypse, and I don't promise believers in my crazy ergot theory an easy out.

As far as the OT being an accurate historical account, where and how does it explain the fossil record or the existence of planets orbiting other suns? FWIW, the Sutras actually do account for those planets, and might account for fossil record too. Go figure.

All I'm saying is that if you are honest with yourself about your faith, you will have to admit to yourself that those who have interpreted the Bible for you cannot have it both ways. You don't have to admit anything to me. It's between you and God. But either those people are prophets themselves, or they are offering their opinions. Well, they can't be prophets now can they, not really. So what are you left with?

Their opinions might well have merit. I won't deny that in many cases they do. However, when they claim to interpret the Bible literally, they are _lying._ They are taking the Lord's name in vain. And when you buy their lies, you are worshipping the Golden Calf. I know that's not how it feels, but there are many things in this world that feel too darn good, too darn right, too darn powerful to actually be a sin. Think about it.
 Gogetter56

Joined: 9/27/2008
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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:05:30 PM
Ace I don't have anybody interpreting the Bible for me other than language translators and they come under heavy scrutiny as well. Sure, there are people that have strong opinions about it, but I read it for myself and am quite certain it's written in very simple and clear language when it comes to our eternal condition. God would not expect people with low iq's to be disqualified just because they couldn't understand the truth found in the Bible that could have saved them. The truth that can save you and set you free is simple, very simple. Think about it.

As far as dinosaurs and planets are concerned, there is plenty of room in the Bible for such things.
 JackDiamond312

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Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/14/2009 12:03:06 AM

God would not expect people with low iq's to be disqualified just because they couldn't understand the truth found in the Bible


I agree... But if you are preaching the Trinity for example.... are you preaching what is in the Bible? or a creation of "someone's" understanding?

"John 10:30 I and my Father are one." is one of the examples the Orthodox Christians used in order to create the Trinity and write the Nicene Creed in the early 4th Century, This on it's own might be convincing... and is often used alone to try and do so.

I put the complete King James version of John 10 to look at here. Verses 15,17,18,25,29,32,36,37,38, all have him making known he is the Son and God and God is his Father. But in verses 27- 29 (just before this verse 30 He is talking about his authority, the authority God gave his son, God gave us Jesus... as our Shepherd, He is the Good Shepherd from verse 11 and others early in John 10.) "
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
(In purpose with authority)
He doesn't say I am my Father. In fact... he makes it a point to say he is the Son of God... who will be sitting to his right in the clouds... in another scripture... And like "John 8 : 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me."

Talking about leaving the door open and allowing the sheep to be misled.... that the sheep will know the true shepherd... That there are false shepherds... that he is the only true shepherd... to me it says a lot....

The only type of sheep I would be, is the one led by the only true Shepherd.


John 10
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42And many believed on him there.


Now, sure... I'm Spiritual and not religious... My choice... but I do believe you do need religion, one must be baptized and accept the Holy Spirit... Does this mean there needs to be a true Church? Well... something to think about... One would think that not just any baptism will get the job done?... or will it? Just asking?
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Show ALL Forums  > California  > Oct 5th entry in "My Utmost for His Highest"....defining sin