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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/17/2009 4:20:50 AM | Welfare services is much more far-reaching than social security payments and extends to disability services, crisis care, child care, support of charitable organisations, administration of social welfare programs. Only a small proportion of those $80 billion will actually end up in the hands of people who are too lazy to work. The amount of the Government's newstart and youth allowance payments is kept high enough that they should be able to house, clothe, feed and transport themselves and their family but it is also low enough that they cannot do much else. It is the tendency for some welfare recipients to abrogate their responsibility to search for work and utilise their payments to obtain drugs, alcohol etc rather than the welfare of their kids that hard working tax payers object to. I don't think anyone would object to welfare payments made to the aged, the disabled, the bereaved or those genuinely making a serious effort to find work.
It is a very real fear that if social security is withdrawn from certain welfare recipients because they are deemed to be lazy that a crime wave would ensue. Is it then that the government has made these people lazy? Or are these just lazy people exploiting the government's system and the people's fears to make a living without working for it?
Neither the government, nor anyone else, can actually make us anything. As Naamah so eloquently explained it is experience that shapes us. We experience events and react to it. We avoid unpleasant experiences and those that we fear and gravitate towards those that are pleasurable, secure or comfortable. As human beings we all have emotional needs that need fulfillment. One is security and consistency, another is contribution, yet another is purpose, and another is recognition. Inevitably anyone who takes without giving will feel unfulfilled as their emotional needs for contribution, recognition and purpose are going un-met.
The government is charged with the responsibility of collecting taxes and spending the funds in the way that it perceives is best for the nation. Generally they think in 3 year blocks so their vision for its distribution is somewhat short-sighted, and sure you begrudge them spending money on the unemployed, especially the lazy ones, but how do you feel about them sending your fellow citizens to risk death in an un-winnable war in Afghanistan, or here in Qld, spending $11 million to put on a motor race that doesn't even happen?
Yup, when it comes to taxes, it pays not to think too much about what is happening with that money once you have paid it, it could well drive you mad. All you can do is ruminate on it around election time, and hold your local representative to account for the part he/she has played. | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/17/2009 6:16:48 AM | which part of the budget pays out the huge amount of money to the private job agencies paid to manage the unemployed?...
there are probably more people in all kinds of fields/jobs depending on the legitimate unemployed for their careers/futures than the number of people actually ''goofing off" on benefits.. what would they do without a certain amount of regular clientel..?
I haven't heard any alternative solutions to the system we currently have by the self proclaimed backslapping "intelligentsia" of the board.. other than they think they might pay less tax themselves if the welfare budget was reduced... and all the goof offs were sent somewhere up country out of the publics eyes perhaps.... or to Afghanistan..
there are more people than jobs in most areas.... what do you suggest we do with the unemployed who try to live there...?... shuttle them around the country against their will?... retrain them for jobs some may never get,,to provide work for teachers...?..
perhaps supporting them at a basic level... might be the best solution for all... | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/17/2009 8:29:48 AM |
which part of the budget pays out the huge amount of money to the private job agencies paid to manage the unemployed?...
That would be welfare services as well.
I haven't heard any alternative solutions to the system we currently have by the self proclaimed backslapping "intelligentsia" of the board.. other than they think they might pay less tax themselves if the welfare budget was reduced... and all the goof offs were sent somewhere up country out of the publics eyes perhaps.... or to Afghanistan..
there are more people than jobs in most areas.... what do you suggest we do with the unemployed who try to live there...?... shuttle them around the country against their will?... retrain them for jobs some may never get,,to provide work for teachers...?..
perhaps supporting them at a basic level... might be the best solution for all...
When people actually think about the situation and the dire consequences of not supporting people there is no other conclusion that can be drawn. I for one don't wish to live in a police state! | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/17/2009 9:15:33 AM |
I haven't heard any alternative solutions to the system we currently have by the self proclaimed backslapping "intelligentsia" of the board.. other than they think they might pay less tax themselves if the welfare budget was reduced...
It doesn't take a member of the intellegentsia to see that this isn't a solution, but rather an outcome of reducing welfare fraud, I think you'll find that no one has put it forward as a solution either.
From what I can see most posters have expressed relatively un-biased views, and can see both sides of the rorting problem, in fact it would seem that you are the only one unable to see both perspectives, especially with statements like this...
why should the average joe getting a few hundred a week between jobs off the Gov get a conscious..?
Which only perpetuates the us and them mentality.
perhaps supporting them at a basic level... might be the best solution for all...
I certainly wouldn't disagree with this, I think education is a basic form of support, but clearly in your mind it isn't...
retrain them for jobs some may never get,,to provide work for teachers...?..
It seems to me you're not interested in finding solutions...I see no problem with retraining people...and what's wrong with providing employment for teachers? | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/17/2009 6:05:58 PM | I am a teacher... got a problem with that?....
and do you think "us and them" isn't perpetuated here,when one group consider themselves more intelligent than the rest ?.. geez...
I see no reason to argue with myself and put both sides of this issue in print ... I don't care if others share my views about welfare ... is this a popularity contest?... or a forum?
that doesn't mean I don't see both sides of the issue at hand.... or accept misuse at any level from the public purse... I don't do it... my conscience is clear... if others do that's their problem... people get caught everyday ..
however, I'd never sign or agree to any policies that would effect the people at the bottom end of the "aussie food chain"... or create a peasant underclass.... or impliment the "gulag" thing for the unemployed...
anyone who thinks personal taxes will be reduced if the number of people claiming Gov benefits falls... is deluding themselves.... has it ever happened in the past?... anywhere?...
GST was supposed to do away with a raft of taxes wasn't it?.... they promised didn't they?.... .... | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/17/2009 8:31:37 PM | My apologies for not even reading any of the posts above.....,
But I just felt the need to blurt this out......,
In regards to certain specific policies.....,
......, I believe some of our various governments over the years have absolutely 'relied' on the average Joe aussie voter 'being lazy' !!
......., Ahhh now I feel better.
I may even go back and read all your posts ! | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/18/2009 2:29:45 AM | A lot of job agencies, (especially one starting with M) are paid for each candidate that comes through their agency, and could not care less if their candidate gets a job or not.
These agencies are only after the money..badly spent if you ask me. | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/18/2009 3:29:00 AM |
It is the tendency for some welfare recipients to abrogate their responsibility to search for work and utilise their payments to obtain drugs, alcohol etc rather than the welfare of their kids that hard working tax payers object to. I don't think anyone would object to welfare payments made to the aged, the disabled, the bereaved or those genuinely making a serious effort to find work.
Yep, I think that's it in a nutshell. It's not use, but misuse (and defence of misuse), that raises criticism.
One is security and consistency, another is contribution, yet another is purpose, and another is recognition. Inevitably anyone who takes without giving will feel unfulfilled as their emotional needs for contribution, recognition and purpose are going un-met.
Gotta agree with you there. And perhaps that gets to the very heart of the question of the OP as well...if there are those who are taking when they really could support themselves, and those who are going beyond allowable deductions into tax evasion, then it establishes a pattern of behaviour... a habit...and would possibly compound and impact on that person's ongoing attitude. So it could make a lazy person lazier... a deceptive person more deceptive?
Yup, when it comes to taxes, it pays not to think too much about what is happening with that money once you have paid it, it could well drive you mad.
I hear ya...but then, apathy, just ensures nothing ever changes for the better which can also drive you mad. 
what would they do without a certain amount of regular clientel..?
I find it quite odd to see someone say that we we need to keep 'goof-offs' (your word) to keep others employed...be like saying we need people to get sick, so nurses can have jobs, or we need criminals, to keep cops in work. If, and I do say 'if', we can solve particular problems and jobs wax/wane/evolve accordingly... then why wouldn't we rather see positive change than stagnate with an unsatisfactory status quo? Would it be so horrible to make the world a better place and re-allocate human resources? Who knows what else might be achieved as a result. In any case, as the world changes, some jobs do become redundant, others are created. It's the way of things. When we got cars and trucks, the guys with horse teams were out of a job...but they needed truck drivers then...new jobs. Jobs are inevitably created to meet a need, however if the need is not resulting from a positive situation and if we can resolve the need in a positive way, then we don't necessarily have to ignore any possible solutions just to keep that need, just to keep those jobs.
I see no problem with retraining people
Me neither Jules. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and ...etc.
the self proclaimed backslapping "intelligentsia" of the board..
Of course self-proclaimed is inaccurate as an attempted put-down because a quick re-read shows nobody actually said they themselves were intelligent...just various people complimenting each other's posts/intelligence/eloquence. Your subsequent allegations about people trying to establish a comparative intelligence scale, forming groups and running a popularity contest are clearly evidence of what is going through your mind, not of what is actually occurring.
other than they think they might pay less tax themselves if the welfare budget was reduced
So according to your comments so far on this thread, you're OK with the notion of people receiving financial assistance on the backs of others even if they are just being lazy and rorting the system...you're OK with people who rort the system to evade contributing their lawful share to the public purse...but you infer criticism on people who voice an opinion that they wouldn't mind seeing improvements to the system so that they might keep a little more of their own wage by paying less tax, honestly and legally? Interesting perspective.  | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/18/2009 5:38:13 AM |
I hear ya...but then, apathy, just ensures nothing ever changes for the better which can also drive you mad.
Ah Naamah, I was not endorsing apathy, I did recommend holding your local member to account. This can be more than just with your vote. If you write them they are obliged to answer. However, I am reminded of the Prayer of St Francis.... | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/18/2009 6:05:23 AM | Well it's late on Sunday night and I've been domestic all day. So to sit and read the recent comments down page three was like opening the door and letting in fresh air. How I would love to have these posters around a table discussing this issue and many others. I wouldn't sit near Naamah though as she would just make me look dumb. Love your mind and the balanced view you bring to a conversation. If only Julian was better looking ....... (Just kidding)
To correct one comment from teejaybee69
or here in Qld, spending $11 million to put on a motor race that doesn't even happen? I think you'll find that money came from YOUR state govt and welfare is federal so the two don't equate.
Yup, when it comes to taxes, it pays not to think too much about what is happening with that money once you have paid it, it could well drive you mad. All you can do is ruminate on it around election time, and hold your local representative to account for the part he/she has played. Can't say I agree with this either. With public forums now like Q & A, the Opposition looking to score points, Ministers trying to make a name then anytime is a good time to make your point. As I have stated in other forums where people said "one person can't make a difference". Well tell that to Sen Bob Brown who is one man who has made a hell of a difference. From Greenie demonstrator to Fed Parliament and looking like having the balance of power with the Democrats gone. Or to Pauline Hansen. Love her or hate her look at the commotion she stirred up and scared so many people that they put her in jail and then started that nude photo scandal to keep her out of politics. Why? Because they were scared that people would actually listen to her.
I remember a conversation with a visionary friend of mine who is an author, radio personality and a man of the future. Twenty years ago he said that as time moved on and machines took over more roles that we would all be "job sharing". That we would only work half the number of hours and someone else would work the rest. That we would have lots more free time to enjoy the things that matter lime family and leisure. It makes sense when you think about it. Half a million out of work and four times that many working 60 plus hours a week and trying to have a life. My friend also said in bringing up his three children. "How do I prepare them for the future and to plan a career when 50% of the jobs presently in the world will be redundant by the time they leave school." Goes to what others were saying about a back hoe puts 10 labourers out of work, a machine on a production line replaces 5 people. I visited a knitting mill a few years ago that had 20 machine operators. Now they run 24 hrs on a computer program with one man on call if a machine stops.
My boss tells me I do the work of 3 people. As soon as he works out who the other 2 are he will sack them!
Relocating for work is not new. In my late teens I dated a girl from Castlemaine in country Victoria. In that town the kids leaving school had 4 choices. The Bacon Factory, the Foundary, get a job in one of the few local shops like the bakery or chemist, or move to the city. Most places are the same. The Govt years ago tried to decentralise things like the State Typing pool to help the country job situation. They split it between Moe and Mildura as just one example. Some corporations have realised they don't need to have their head office in a capitol city. Mind you it's amazing how many then moved to the Gold Coast!
In my dads era you could expect to leave school, get a job at 16. Spend your whole life with the one company and get the long service leave and the gold watch as you retire. I have changed my career path about four times in 34 years and then for several different companies within each career. My younger brother even more often than I have. I figure about 5 years is the average in one place for most people. The teenagers coming through now think they own the world and won't work in a job they don't like. Some are in for a reality check and others will finish up collecting my tax money until I die working at 80 because my super fund collapsed and there's no pension anymore. | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/18/2009 7:31:34 AM |
..."intelligentsia"...
Hey, mate... I'll let you in on a secret... All that economic history stuff that I riffed on about earlier was paraphrased from people much more intelligent than myself.
Here's one of them:
http://www.mbs.edu/go/episode/economic-history-of-australia
and all the goof offs were sent somewhere up country out of the publics eyes perhaps.... or to Afghanistan..
Well... no... but have you seen the commission housing we have around here? Down here in Vic, they occupy all the prime realestate - South Yarra, Richmond, Carlton... All of them have great city views and the ones in Williamstown is even right on the water. I hear that in Sydney, there's even government housing in Coffs Harbour with views of the Opera House and the Harbour Bridge...
I mean, I'm all for helping those in need and all, but don't you think this is a little over the top?
there are more people than jobs in most areas.... what do you suggest we do with the unemployed who try to live there...?... shuttle them around the country against their will?... retrain them for jobs some may never get,,to provide work for teachers...?
Let me reframe what you're saying there. Do you think it is fair for the tax payer to fund the lifestyle of those who choose to live where there are no jobs?
So, curious...what's the prediction then? How will it start, over what timeframe, etc?
You know what.. I actually don't know. In theory, we really should take inspiration from the middle east (UAE, Saudi Arabia) where the state took responsibility for drilling their reserves of oil and re-investing the profits and managing for wealth. You know, they do such a great job over there that every new born national in the UAE gets a house, land and $1million USD, AND they can do that with no income tax. In theory, there's no reason we can't achieve that here... we have land, minerals, uranium, diamonds, coal, agriculture, education, etc, all in abundance - they only have sand and oil.
But the problem is, we are actually very very far away from being able to do that. For one thing, our culture and government isn't setup to encourage our best and brightest to get into positions where they can help solve the really hard problems and make some tough decisions. Think about it - CEOs of the ASX 100 make at least 7 figures a year, our PM makes only $330k.
And what motivation does our politicians have for making real, sustainable and long term changes when their chief focus is on re-election every 3 years? Peter Costello tried looking at the longer term with the future fund, but even that didn't secure his career.
Now sure, I'm not offering any alternative solutions or what not, and I'm not sure I have a good prediction on what might happen... but all I know is that these kinds of things aren't things that can be solved by one person alone, no matter how intelligent they are... or aren't. But maybe if we talk enough about it, then we can build a little momentum, and maybe eventually some lazy (and perhaps, dateless) politician might stumble across this forum and steal our collective ideas.
So ultimately, it isn't that the Government is making people lazy. Rather, we are following a lazy government. | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/19/2009 2:39:03 AM | I am a mother of four children and I am extremely grateful for my Centrelink pension. I have friends who were single mums who are now working, plus two other single mother friends who are both doing nursing degrees. One of the nursing students lost her husband this year in a car accident and has seven children, the youngest of which is one and the oldest child is seven. The other student has four children and came from a violent situation. I myself moved 3,000 miles to escape my violent ex. All cases are different and as I said, without these payments we would not be able to provide for our children and give them a decent roof over their heads.
I plan to retrain as a legal secretary again when my oldest child turns 16 and re-enter the workforce. Until then, their safety and security is of the utmost importance to me, along with a decent standard of living. So while you can make assumptions about whoever is bludging off welfare, I think you will find most single parents are just doing their job and waiting for the day that they can earn a good wage and hold their heads up high in society again, whilst bringing up the next generation of model citizens.
I also know two women on a disability pension, both of whom are genuinely ill and incapable of working. This has been an extremely interesting forum. The only thing I will say, is that working people don't have to cope with the put-downs and criticism that beneficiaries endure, because they are the ones paying the taxes. For ten years before I had children though, I too was a tax payer. | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 10/20/2009 6:17:06 PM | Just on the OPs initial question 'Is the government making people lazy', I think they are certainly helping but not 'making'.
Ive read MOST of this thread and disregarded the rest and I can see both sides of the story. I had been a centrelink recipient for a number of years but the entire time I was working part time (declaring said earnings as well). Even back all those years ago it was too easy to 'slip through the cracks' and just 'languish'. No one seemed to care what employer or what phone number I put down that I had gone to 'see about a job'. They just took my form, hit it with a time stamp and I walked out of the office.
Finally they got jack sick of me and Newstart was the be all and end all of benefits and 'support' for the unemployed. Back then whilst I worked I never seemed to earn enough to be completely free from Centrelink. Some fortnights they would pay be $2.00 sometimes more if I didnt earn so much. In thier words my file was never 'inactive' so according to them I had been unemployed for 4 years!
Without getting into the nitty gritty of it all when they said to me 'your unemployable' I packed the total sh*ts, got off my fat clacker, trained, straightened myself out and got a job and a good one and nowadays a better one. I did the jobs that no one wanted to do and busted my back end to stay in a job and it paid off (geddit.......paid!!)
I digress. Yes there are people on benefits who bludge off the system and rort it because it is so easy to rort BUT there are also bonafide people on benefits who for reasons far out of their control find themselves in need. I dont know that the government is making people lazy so far as just letting them sit on benefits for way to long. Benefit payments are just above the poverty line and always have been.
Centrelink is like most government agencies, understaffed and under resourced and underfunded (for staff numbers). For people not to be made dependant on welfare they need to be monitored and encouraged and assisted to get off it before they do become 'unemployable'. People on unemployment who are fine fit and healthy need to be in full time meaningful training, part time work or volunteer work or working for their benefit payments. Centrelink payments should not come for free and peoples esteem is far better knowing they are contributing. Society would see them in a whole better light doing something for their benefits and putting back into the community.
Welfare is a 'hand' not a 'right' and those on it should not be left sitting there doing nothing contructive with their time as it is self destructive and waste of public money.
This is where you all chime in, cut bits and pieces out of my thread and chop it up like a nice tender steak and a glass of red.........hee hee hee.
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 11/5/2009 6:22:21 AM | "Centrelink is like most government agencies, understaffed and under resourced and underfunded (for staff numbers). For people not to be made dependant on welfare they need to be monitored and encouraged and assisted to get off it before they do become 'unemployable'. People on unemployment who are fine fit and healthy need to be in full time meaningful training, part time work or volunteer work or working for their benefit payments. Centrelink payments should not come for free and peoples esteem is far better knowing they are contributing. Society would see them in a whole better light doing something for their benefits and putting back into the community.
Welfare is a 'hand' not a 'right' and those on it should not be left sitting there doing nothing contructive with their time as it is self destructive and waste of public money."
I mostly agree with these sentiments. Australia's welfare system, taxation system and government financial system are formidably complex and I don't think simplistic assumptions can be made about the issues surrounding them. The way in which they are administered and how they should be properly administered involve extremely complex policy considerations which the government of the day has to carefully consider. I personally would prefer to see a government that spent less on middle class welfare (i.e. the baby bonus payments) and tax breaks for the rich and for corporations (i.e. the tax breaks for some forms of super) and less funds being wasted subsidizing jobs in industries in which Australia is not really economically competitive (such as manufacturing cars) and more spent on education, infrastructure, and re-skilling the unemployed or under-employed or in encouraging older people who are still healthy and of good mind to continue working rather than retire. The government should also try to run a balanced budget.
History will judge the 'stimulus' spending. We may complain about 'dole bludgers' but effectively everyone in Australia (no matter how poor or rich) got $900 from the stimulus payments earlier this year. Couldn't this money have been better spent? | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 11/5/2009 1:59:07 PM | | It's a bit of an arrogant, to my mind arrogant anyhow, assumption that people just 'sit on their asses' with their 'handouts'! Governments are Governments and people are people, and sometimes in life there is a 'one up ' and 'one down' situation that happens and suddenly there you are dependent on a Government for existence. Life might seem peachy poo right now, but I can tell somehow that you have leanings towards the school of "nothing will ever rock my world". As someone else said, it has in fact been said for centuries "You Never Know"!!!!! | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 11/5/2009 4:25:41 PM | Another side to the whole government mking people lazy, albeit left of centre, but someones gotta back the dole bludgers err welfare recipients
Im assuming many of you here work for a job, are YOU lazy?
You get up to go to work to your easiest or closest or most appealing job that you do to recieve your salary, how lazy is that????
How many of you here have a job that you take only because you cant afford your bills and HAVE to do it or starve???
I dont do dole and i dont work for someone else, ergo anyone who doesnt work for themselves is a bludger
see where this can go? | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 11/5/2009 6:37:06 PM | It's a bit of an arrogant, to my mind arrogant anyhow, assumption that people just 'sit on their asses' with their 'handouts'! Governments are Governments and people are people, and sometimes in life there is a 'one up ' and 'one down' situation that happens and suddenly there you are dependent on a Government for existence. Life might seem peachy poo right now, but I can tell somehow that you have leanings towards the school of "nothing will ever rock my world". As someone else said, it has in fact been said for centuries "You Never Know"!!!!!
Surely you don't wish ill health and bad fortune to fall upon the most arrogant of peachy poos in society? Isn't living with being themselves enough of a punishment?
Yes, smugness is such an unfortunate quality. When it rears it's ugly head on threads like this one, at least one knows who to avoid dating here.
But all opinions are valid. And the consolation for those who are chomping at the bit to throw stones at every welfare recipient, without taking into account pesky things like complex and legitimate reasons that the majority of them exist, is that they get to have their say at election time!
Their 'right'eous views may fit well with political parties such as One Notion, as led by Pauline Hansen (affectionately known in some circles as Hitler.au). Although, I'm out of touch with the current political situation in Oz... does One Notion still exist? Or did the good tax paying citizens that ran it end up in jail? Oh well, I guess one can always vote for the Christian Right parties... there are a few of them around aren't there? | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:11:58 PM |
Get out!
Im not using a bus....only mong's ride in buses.
If it is "green" to ride in buses and only mongs ride in buses are all greenies mongs? | |
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| Is the government making people lazy?
Posted: 11/8/2009 6:08:16 AM | the govenmant is full of dummies who went to harvard. in comfutable jobs . they get long lunch breakes promise crap wich is what the people on the doll can afford to eat.
they keep the mojerty happy and the mojorety of people are employed. take a day of and go and ask the people at centerlink how there getting all this grate help and ask them why there not getting a job to pay it back while your there consider there could be only limited positions availble for this large number of people why dont you take all your friends shoes there and get them to pollish them wile your there. maybe IF POT was legal they would get a job so they could afford a dubie. there for start a legialise pot fourum to get the people into the work place | |
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