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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/16/2009 6:32:57 PM | " However, as a more mature, somewhat more refined person, I realized the error of my ways; you can't "buy" a woman with an expensive meal - it's only a rental."
" Here's to RENTALS! I'll pay for a guys meal! "
Margo, I appreciate that you are comfortable and confident to speak your mind, and state what you expect from a first or second date.
It's rare to hear a woman talk about what she sexually will and will not accept on a date. This is a case of Sexual Role Reversal, as most of us know it.
I hope that the results of this different approach as most of our society knows it, will bring you happiness, and the relationship that you wish to find. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/16/2009 7:08:51 PM | Thank you! I know he's out there some place and I will find him. I have faith in that.
Both my long term life loves/relationships were a direct result of first date sex. We knew what we liked and wanted even from then. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/16/2009 8:04:15 PM | [Well, if the choice was really only up to the guy, of course he'd bang every woman he takes out for dinner........ men rarely take women they don't want to bang out to dinner..]
Ah, but I believe that REAL men do! I am sorry if you disagree, but I guess I have still have faith that people want to take some time to get to know to know someone before sharing such a personal part of themself. Physical attractiveness may warm the loins, but if we can't have a conversation over dinner, I have no desire to attempt pillow talk.... and, just for the record...
[To clarify for you : I don't date for sex. I don't take a woman out for dinner, etc, for sex.]
This quote is attributable to a man! If what you say is true, then he is a liar. If all men are liars, then what is the point of seeking a relationship at all? Let's face it, sex is easy. We (the majority, at least) could have sex every day, if that is all we wanted. That is not to say that we all don't want be found sexually attractive, or that sex isn't important, but for most of us there needs to be more than sex. The same men who bang anyone they take out to dinner are the men who call the women they sleep with sluts for having slept with them. They remain alone. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/16/2009 8:11:15 PM | I believe all that relationships are are friendships with a sexual relationship.
Therefore, it's hard for me to say, "I don't date for sex." At some point, I am.
Even so... this whole topic is silly to me.
You know what I expect when I buy a cheese burger?
A ****ing cheese burger. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/16/2009 8:25:29 PM | " I believe all that relationships are are friendships with a sexual relationship.
Therefore, it's hard for me to say, "I don't date for sex." At some point, I am.
Even so... this whole topic is silly to me.
You know what I expect when I buy a cheese burger?
A ****ing cheese burger. "
Having given us that example, what do you expect when you buy a cheese burger, or any other meal for a woman ?
And how often are you successful in getting , as you stated it, " A****ing " ANYTHING in return ? | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/16/2009 8:43:06 PM | Conversation. And someone to eat a cheeseburger with.
Not everything in life has an instant return. Ever plant a garden? Those tomatoes don't come up by themselves. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 2:27:37 AM | Margo64 stated, and again confirmed that she won't wait to have sex with a man on the 3 rd date. This is a reverse sexual role, from what most of us have known.
But how many men and women secretly admire her for clearly stating what she believes sexually, and what she will not accept ?
And is she also refusing to accept the age old hypocracy that if a man does it sexually, it's okay, but if a woman doesn't, society looks down on the woman for the same exact thing? | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 5:21:35 AM |
Margo64 stated, and again confirmed that she won't wait to have sex with a man on the 3 rd date. This is a reverse sexual role, from what most of us have known.
But how many men and women secretly admire her for clearly stating what she believes sexually, and what she will not accept ?
And is she also refusing to accept the age old hypocracy that if a man does it sexually, it's okay, but if a woman doesn't, society looks down on the woman for the same exact thing?
That's really not anything new. I felt the same way in college. It's called freedom of choice and Margo is not alone in her thinking where SHE chooses what she wants - it's not because she allows herself to be coerced or manipulated and has no expectations beyond the evening. It doesn't always work very well for many women emotionally. It depends on where a woman is in her life. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 5:58:22 AM | Beach, I think that our use of wording is just slightly different.
I tend to be a romantic, so I hope for romance. And of COURSE there's sexual desire. I just don't "expect" it to happen. I may "HOPE" for it to happen, I may "WANT" it to happen, but the reason some of the women here are going right for the throat is the use of the word "expects." It implies that the value of the cheeseburger and the value of the sex are similar.
Cheeseburger will NEVER equal sex. (Well, ok.. a loaded 5 Guys burger comes close.)
Her liking me and having a good conversation might.
If I ask someone out on a date the only thing she owes me is showing up. (Provided she indicated she was coming.)
Are there hopes attached? Sure.
I agree that a lot of people play a lot of games regarding sex. If a woman doesn't want to wait, she doesn't have to. I've known PLENTY of women who prefer not to. (Known. Not "known." I tend to wait a bit so I don't get attached to someone that's not going to be around for long.) It's not really anything new. | |
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Savona
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Joined: 7/14/2009
Msg: 236 | |
| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 7:11:30 AM |
And, I can expect pictures of your ass when, exactly?
... and, I hope it's sooner than Savona sending pics of her ass. She's teased and promised, but never delivered.
Awwwww Capitano I tried to take a picture but I kept getting blinded by the flash ...
Rats ... does that mean I am butt ugly without sex appeal ????
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 7:54:38 AM | Savonna, perhaps instead of a photo, you should try something different. Perhaps an ass mold, then you could send a model of it. Or maybe a portrait. Do you think you might be able to find somebody to paint your ass? 
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 7:55:20 AM |
(big pacific) It's a difference between putting yourself out there to be known by the other and to know them, or being constantly worried if you are on a checklist of deal breakers.
You're very right.
Which is why I just behave as my obnoxious, ornery self all the time, and if it sets off some neurotic person's* "Eee!" trigger -- well, then, bullet dodged!
Barry the Orc
*I specified gender-neutral, because men (with whom I do NOT form romantic attachements!) get the full-on obnoxious Barry just as much as any and all women. I'm an equal-opportunity A-hole, after all...  | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 8:05:23 AM | Your free and easy way of thinking may have been "cool" a generation ago, but these days, sex with the wrong person can cause life-long damage, if not death. Men who think like you are as common as dirt.
No matter what "day and age" it is, being cynical, jaded, biased, and paranoid are not "cool", but signs of a dysfunction and anti-social behaviour.
They want maximum gain, for minimum expenditure and exposure.
Some women are seeking more evolved, intelligent men with stronger character
That's non sequitur, and completely delusional.
A man can be the epitome of being evolved, and intelligent, and of strong character, and still not want to be put into a sexual moratorium by a woman with hang ups about sex.
In fact, it's an archaic (regressed), un-intelligent, and man of weaker character that would give in to being put into a moratorium by a woman, when there are any number of women who are equal, in everyway as her, but are not sexually draconian.
Sex shouldn't be the entire basis for any relationship, but it certainly is important.
It isn't. But it is what separates a "friendship" from a sexual relationship.
A person's sexuality is inextricably linked to their overall appeal to another.
Sex, and sexual relationships are mutually inclusive.
The idea is to reveal all aspects to each other, in order for both to feel confident that they are a good long term fit, in all areas. Sex included.
If one is reluctant to put everything forth, they have issues and hang ups that I wouldn't go anywhere near. It speaks volumes about them, not me.
I don't live like that, and those who preach how their "morals" statisically yield better results than mine, are simply ignorant to the reality that they don't.
Trying to reason with those who lack the reasoning to understand this, is futile.
Like I've said before, I think POF should have a "shallow" end, and a "deep" end.
I'm interested in what people have to say about this as well.
I figure if I'm DATING someone (at least at this age) I'm
trying the guy on and hoping it will turn into a relationship
which in turn will be a sexual relationship.
I don't get all this non-sexual stuff.
I can make friends with guys whenever I want....and I do.
But I don't "date" my friends.
I don't really look at sex as a prize or a reward...I look at it
as a mutually satisfying experience.
The answer to your question is that you haven't any hang ups.
Those who "guard" against their "sex" being "taken", or who view it as something awarded for "obedience" for acquiescing, have issues.
Those who simply feel more comfortable waiting, should just do it, and not attempt to disparage others in an attempt to overinflate themselves as being better, or more "discerning", in order to cover up the fact that they don't have good judgment, or trust their instincts about others.
I think that there is a severe comprehension issue between men and women when it comes to sex and why a woman may or may not want to have sex early in a relationship and what the thought process is behind their decisions.
No, there's no comprehension problem. The "severe" problem is there's simply denial on the part of the one who has hang ups.
Dealing with someone with hang ups is like dealing with someone with baggage. It's better to simply move on and find someone who doesn't have them.
Both parties are happier.
This is the most hypocritical thread I have seen so far!
Some self-righteous women who claim in one forum to have boyfriends, while their profiles say they are single, some women saying they never engage in sex for fear of STDs (some STDs can be transmitted by kissing... good luck!), some say they never have sex unless they are sure the guy/woman wants a relationship, what a perfect world.
I will say this... I will NOT get to know someone for three bloody months platonically for me to take them to bed AFTER three months, to find out three months later that he and I are sexually incompatible in bed and it is beyond repair. For those who see things only in black and white, I am not saying jump in bed with them, I am not saying contract a disease, I am not saying go out a couple of times then hop in bed.. I am saying that three months to get to know someone is kind of dumb! If you know how to play your cards right, you can learn loads about a person in way less time... otherwise take a year.. sounds about safe enough!
For all the women out there saying they are willing to wait several months because they believe in courtship, oh please! You just don't fancy the guy well enough. Cuz if you do fancy him well enough your knickers will be going over your head... maybe not on the first or second or fifth date, but hell way sooner than three months and you ladies know it.... If there three months bullshite worked none of any of you would be here.
Brilliant post, Ruby Darling.
As far as women being offended or surprised because men want sex from them, they need to grow up.
+1
Premarital sex demeans both the man and the woman and puts a curse on future committed relationships.
Pure drivel....
Men here is some advice: don't take out women expecting sex.
Take out women whom you want to have long term relationships with.
That's non sequitur.
Makes no sense.
Just an observation that doesn't entirely make sense to me. There are women who have stated they will make the man wait until they are sure they are worthy of a long term relationship and that sometimes it's been as much as two months and sometimes a shorter waiting period. The part that doesn't make sense is, whatever period of time the woman has made the guy wait until they've determined that he is worthy of a long term relationship are people who have had "many" relationships (at least that is what is gathered by stating there have been varying timeS). Obviously then, that waiting period was not a determining factor of whether the guy was worthy of a ltr because those women who have stated that are not in a ltr. It sounds like a faulty barometer.
Of course it's faulty. It's circular reasoning.
I cannot believe the amount of hypocrisy being displayed here by some of my fellow women. Who enters into a relationship without expectation of sex? And in any case if there a definite time period .. then at what point does "dating" turns into (or qualifies to be called) a "relationship"? How many dates does this entails? If a man approaches you here on POF and says he wants to have a relationship with you with no expectation of sex Im sure none of these women will go for it.
So you make a man wait 2 months and that means he wants to stick around? Thats absolutely not true, total BS.
Men are just as wise as women think they are. You tell a guy " I want to get to know you before x-y-z" ... and sure, he'll put on a show for you. And in most cases, after the x-y-z, they are OUT... because they realize the woman is just a control freak (or they take it as winning the challenge). Sex is a natural expectation. Will any of us women just wine and dine a man just for the heck of it? For all those who claimed to have made the man wait... well, where are these men now? They are gone.
Its so despicable to hear women trying to use our coochies as some sort of reward. The truth is, women crave for sex just as much as men. We just have a better handle on it - controlling and displaying our urges. If I let a man dine and wine me for 2-3 months, I think he is entitled to some payback. I WILL NOT fault him for expecting some SEX. If I have no intention of that, then the wine and dine sessions doesn't go past the second one (at that point I will pay for my part or even aLL). I am not one to lead someone on.
As a woman, if I cook meals for a man, pamper him etc, I expect that he at least show some appreciation - thanks, hugs, kisses, compliments etc. I will certainly be offended if he turns round and tell me I have a "sense of entitlement" to expect that.
Lets get real here. Men are always going to be MEN and women are always going to be WOMEN! Men seek women in the hopes of SEX and maybe a relationship...... Women seek men in the hopes of a relationship and maybe SEX. LEts find a middle ground and stop demonizing the other gender. Just my 2cents!!
This post has been brought to you by a woman...
2a. Trust me, women aren't hungry enough to sit through a dinner with a man she has no interest in -
That's a strawman.
To say that women won't go out for an evening with a man she has zero interest in sexually, is completely fallacious.
I'm a guy, and I get invited out by women who I'm friends with, and date strictly platonically, even with the understanding that we're just friends, but that we both find
each other sexually attractive, to one another.
Why wouldn't I? | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 8:23:20 AM | | I know of many close female friends around the globe of ours that feel the same way I do. If a man cannot give us what we want and need in the bedroom then why invest the time into a doomed relationship. If a man doesn't "fit" sexually I will know not to waste his time let alone mine. In the quest for finding a significant other I'm going to try on the "fit". Therefore to us we have SEX first in the hopes of a RELATIONSHIP. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 8:29:07 AM | I keep getting my Margo's mixed up. Then again, I'm thinking that the resulting comic mayhem might be advantageous.
Do I still gotta put out on the first date? Can't I wrangle an extra meal first?
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 8:45:00 AM | Well, if the choice was really only up to the guy, of course he'd bang every woman he takes out for dinner........ men rarely take women they don't want to bang out to dinner..] Ah, but I believe that REAL men do! I am sorry if you disagree, but I guess I have still have faith that people want to take some time to get to know to know someone before sharing such a personal part of themself. Physical attractiveness may warm the loins, but if we can't have a conversation over dinner, I have no desire to attempt pillow talk.... and, just for the record...
Oh stop with the goofy "REAL" men bullshit. That is such a ridiculous term.
Most men DO understand that time is needed to get a woman into bed or a relationship, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to bang her the first time he sees her.
Are you the sort of woman who believes that most of her male "friends" wouldn't bang her if they had the opportunity? Just 'cause YOU see them as "just friends" doesn't mean they see you the same way.
Besides that, most men can't hear a thing you say until after they've seen you naked.... 
Awwwww Capitano I tried to take a picture but I kept getting blinded by the flash ...
Hmmmm.... not sure how that works, but it reminds me of a girlfriend I had one time...
.... she kept trying to take pictures of HER ass and I kept coming up in the picture....
I'm still not sure why she found that so funny. People she showed the pics to laughed as well. I dunno....
Or maybe a portrait. Do you think you might be able to find somebody to paint your ass?
I have a beret, edible body paint and some nice sable brushes. I'll paint her ass.
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 9:05:05 AM | I solve the whole problem with always paying my own way.... I owe no one unless I choose to.
Exactly - in fact, it's default for me. As is driving myself there, and finding my way home. If you always cover what you ate/drink/did, there's no confusion about what you're expected to do.
That's a strawman.
To say that women won't go out for an evening with a man she has zero interest in sexually, is completely fallacious.
I'm a guy, and I get invited out by women who I'm friends with, and date strictly platonically, even with the understanding that we're just friends, but that we both find
each other sexually attractive, to one another.
Why wouldn't I?
As I explained to someone else who seemed to miss this too (Msg 238), I never said sexually - I said in general. I typed a whole other paragraph about friendship. Some men don't realize it's friendship - you seem to understand it is and it's no problem for you, so basically your response isn't valid. Neither is a woman who takes you out and pays as a friend. Most men I know don't complain about women they know and like to spend time with as friends picking up the tab for a meal.
AGAIN....let me make this clearer (I guess "like" is being construed as "want to bang" so I'll give more detail). A woman usually isn't hungry enough to sit thru a whole dinner with a man she wants nothing to do with (and I mean as in he's paying so I'll go). As in not friends, not a date, not anything. I have a lot of male friends, that has nothing to do with what I said. A lot of men think a woman would continue to accept dinners from a guy she has no interest in in any form for months.
If a woman meets a guy, doesn't know him enough to be friends, and doesn't really like his personality and has no attraction to him, she won't accept a dinner from him just to get a free meal.
Hopefully that's clear enough to understand? | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 9:30:11 AM |
If a woman meets a guy, doesn't know him enough to be friends, and doesn't really like his personality and has no attraction to him, she won't accept a dinner from him just to get a free meal.
Hopefully that's clear enough to understand?
What is clear is that there is always a bias to your portrayal of women as being "doelike" and navigating in a world of predatory men, which has some truth to it.
The parts you always seem to leave out, is that women are not the angels that you would like us all to believe.
There are in fact many attention whores out there, who will feign interest in a man so that they go out for a "nice time" and avoid sitting at home bored, yet another night.
I have lots of women friends who WILL go out with a guy, simply because he was persistent, and it's better than staying home alone. They will string a guy along, until a "dreamier" guy finally comes out of the woodwork.
That's a more accurate picture of the dating landscape, than the one that you portray.
There ARE women "players' out there. Your bias is constantly ignoring or tremendously downplaying their existence to virtually nil. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 9:37:56 AM | Beach,
A lot of women on this post are stating what they want sexually. They just happen to have a differing point of view from Margo's .I have no interest in being critical about anyone's (men's or women's) choice in terms of their sexual behavior. To each his/her own. But what I do not get is other women are sating they want to have an emotional connection with a fellow before they are sexual with him. That is also saying what she wants sexually and being willing to act on it. We all have choices and need to take responsibility for those choices. If a fellow wants and or demands sex because he has wined and dined a woman and she says no because she needs/wants to take her time and he does not then they are not a good match. End of story. Neither person is wrong, bad or awful. They have differing viwepoints and values. However no one ( man or woman ) has the right to expect sex from another no matter what the cost of dinner is You can substitute other activities in there as well. I do not live by society's values. I live by the values I have chosen for myself mostly from my life experience and years of self examination. All choices have consequences. At my time of life I choose not to be pushed-guilted or coursed into sex by someone I do not have a deeply caring relationship with. Because of this choice there have been men who have walked away. No loss in my book but no harn done either. Others choose differently. All choices are valid.
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 9:48:14 AM | "If there three months bullshite worked none of any of you would be here."
Wow, horrible logic!
IF your perspective is the only "righteous" one, why are you here?
Trust me, a woman doesn't need to be f-ing around with whomever she has an attraction to to find success. We all go at our own pace. Some have been lucky to find the mate of their dreams by waiting to understand the man they feel comfortable with, enough for intamcy to feel right. Others have found happiness by following their immediate instincts. There is no right or wrong! It's a personal preference and neither approach result in %100 success of everlasting happiness.
But I believe you completely miss the point of the original discussion. Can a man expect to get laid after putting out financially? I think it was after a couple dates.
I'm not familiar with all the circumstances. Generally, I think that a woman has the responsability to be honest, so if she is teasing him and leading him on for the sake of financial reward (we all know women like that), she is unfair. If he is just assuming or this is his MO for laying his dates, he's an idiot to get angry if it doesn't work on everybody- it's not going to. So, I don't think there is one answer that is correct except that "honesty is the best policy", lol. | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 10:07:15 AM | I thought this was about a guy with expectations (after a couple dates), blaming the woman for not meeting them???
All this back and forth, "woman" this, "man" that, is irrelevant.
When someone has to write a diatribe about how wrong everyone else's comments are and how they have it all sewn up, they're kind'a wearing their issues on their sleve!
Verityone though, I think when a woman wants to wait, it's not to persoanlly deprive you of your sexual fullfillment, or, are wearing some sort of chastity belt for power. Some people like to understand first what kind of relationship they are getting into before they dive. If you think all woman are alike and it's only a matter of who is more convienent for you to get your lay on, I think you are who some woman want to avoid by waiting to see the guys true personality. Yikes! | |
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| That's WHY It's Called Sex Appeal
Posted: 10/17/2009 11:09:06 AM |
What is clear is that there is always a bias to your portrayal of women as being "doelike" and navigating in a world of predatory men, which has some truth to it.
The parts you always seem to leave out, is that women are not the angels that you would like us all to believe.
You must have the wrong poster. My view of women isn't doelike at all, it's more like they're aware of men but don't care as much as a lot of men would like to think. I also don't see predators as gender specific. There are morons and those who prey on morons in both categories.
There are in fact many attention whores out there, who will feign interest in a man so that they go out for a "nice time" and avoid sitting at home bored, yet another night.
Yes, it's that kind of mentality - the one where men think they are more exciting than a night at home, that I try and address. Truth be told, many men are worse than a night at home alone...which was my point. It's getting to the point where eating at home or eating out alone and paying for it is can actually be more productive.
I have lots of women friends who WILL go out with a guy, simply because he was persistent, and it's better than staying home alone. They will string a guy along, until a "dreamier" guy finally comes out of the woodwork.
If we're going down this road I have to address the masses of men who beg women to give them a chance despite knowing they aren't her cup of tea. Are they not partly responsible if it ends up being a dinner where she's yawning a lot? In the first couple dates, women are either cold if they say no in 8 minutes or users if they stick it out to see if attraction will surface - there is NO middle ground here if she (shock of all shocks) still isn't interested after eating dinner with a guy.
Every meal a guy ever paid for for a woman in a restaurant who decided she wasn't interested IMO is labeled "wanting a free meal" as an afterthought. Let's not forget most of these guy probably made a big deal of saying "go out with me just once, you won't be disappointed" or something to that effect. Trust me I've heard it a lot myself. I don't care if a guy's upset if I say "yeah, it won't matter" back to a guy - but some women probably want to save feelings, or may really think he's worth spending the time with (go figure).
Sure, some people think they must be on a date every weekend night, including men, half of which are also on these dates. I have a lot of male friends who think being at home on a weekend night is the end of the world - and would pay for anyone to sit across from them in some restaurant - so women aren't the only ones who do this. Some women date just to date. I still don't believe that a woman would sit and eat dinner with men they can barely stand to look at by choice as a priority.
That's a more accurate picture of the dating landscape, than the one that you portray.
I don't portray anything - I just like to let men know that paying for dinner isn't worthy of a nobel prize. There are men here that think a lot of women do nothing but look for meals from strange men they don't like.
There ARE women "players' out there. Your bias is constantly ignoring or tremendously downplaying their existence to virtually nil.
There are no victims, only volunteers - for the men who fear spending money on a woman who's not interested....as I said many times before, address it up front. Declare that you won't date a woman who doesn't pay for her own stuff. Will you date less? Sure - but if you're serious about it, you won't care because you'd rather be single than in a position to be taken advantage of. | |
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