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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 2:24:41 AM | Don't really care about Fox. As I heard someone else say its like a WWE show to distract the American people. If true we should all be concerned that a constutional lawywer is walking over the First Admendment, and freedom of the press, becasue next is our speech here. Enough said about them.
PsyOP's is real Paul. They're trained here on Ft. Bragg, and mostly Reserve Soliders. Those are our hearts and minds folks, that later go into advertising. Most of the people for the POG are really nice folks, that you wouldn't mind having over for dinner. Not diabloical at all, so can we stop with the melodrama.
As for my opinion on Iraq. The question was are they better off today? My answer was yes. Now was the question should we've gone there to begin with? Well my answer would've been no. However, I do feel overall, our current operation is less of a bullying tactic then what we were doing in the 1990's durring H.W. Bush and Clinton. I wish success in Iraq for several reasons, not least of all is very personal. I don't wish my sacrifices and those of my friends to be for nothing. You may cry about Iraq but I carry the physical scars and will be disabled for the rest of my life. Again not perfect, very complex, but it is improving. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 5:16:14 AM | Gadget..There is no melodrama about the PSYOPs internal activities other than it's illegality. Yes, the people themselves are fine and normal, and just doing their jobs, but there are conscientious objectors in other aspects of our illegal and immoral activities.
Fox "news" lost all credibility as a neutral actual news source when they hitched their wagon to the last administration and was instrumental in selling the propaganda needed to unleash the Iraqi genocide. Fox news viewers were three times more misinformed on 3 basic issues than the general public. To this day they remain misinformed.
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/714.html
Fox is the TV version of right wing radio, selling absolute lies with impunity and the rest of us have to suffer for it, Gadget included.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/19/fox-news-viewers-misinformed/
Without the ignorance manufactured by Fox, the Iraq attack probably would not have been possible. Without the ignorance manufactured by Fox, there would probably be considerably more forward progress on a number of vital issues, a more informed and civil debate on issues, and a national rise in IQ by several points.
I have no problems with Obama ignoring the ignorant, screaming bully in the cafeteria of news. I do have problems with people's willful ignorance when all they have to do is change the channels once in awhile and get some balance and other perspectives in their news. Colbert/Stewart viewers and NPR/PBS viewers are the most informed. Surely there is something in the middle for Fox news hens to use as a half-way house to reality. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:45:41 AM | Paul K
If cruise missles were to "fall" ouside your house, it would mean that they missed....... and they don't miss.
As far as terrorism goes, I think that you need to experience real terrorism, and then make statements as silly as you do.........................
Not that I would want you to experience real terrorism, but you really have missed what it really is.
If cruise missiles fall outside my house it might be that they were aiming for the place across the street and yes... cruise missiles, even laser guided ones do miss sometimes.
You believe that I need to experience real terrorism as opposed to the false terrorism? You are a funny guy Paul. I assume then that you have had the horrible unfortunate experience of watching yourself or close ones get blown up for political reasons? So sorry to hear that. Well at least now you know better than everyone else right?
Paul K... what is the difference between REAL terrorism and FALSE terrorism. Does it feel better when it was a 1,000,000 dollar missile that kills my familly as opposed to a 19.95$ suicide vest?
Let's see, if my family was killed out of collateral damage (cruise missile scenario) I would be really pissed off and devastated.
and
If my family was killed deliberately from a suicide bombing I would be really pissed off and devasted.
Seems like they are about even to me. Both are politically motivated murders. Both are travesties to the human potential. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:07:04 AM | Hey X
Do you consider what happened on 9-11 a travesty to the human potential?
Paul K | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 1:26:38 PM | Paul,
Do you really think that Iraq had anything at all to do with 9/11? Seriously.
Merely because we got terrorized we abandoned seeking out the perps and illogically, illegally, and immorally killed 4700 more of our own, and orders of magnitude more innocent folks who had nothing to do with our terrorism. Terrorizing millions of innocent people because of our bloodlust was hardly productive in any sense of the word. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 1:46:38 PM | There really is no way to talk to people who believe in conspiracies, as no matter what you say, they have a BELIEF that is more important, because it fits into their general scheme of life. And, everybody else who doesn't subscribe to their whacky point of view, be it that WE were responsible for 9-11, or aliens are being kept at some place in New Mexico, or we didn't go to the moon...................
So, yeah, go ahead and believe that 9-11 and Iraq are not connected.........
Paul K | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 1:58:08 PM | The reason I believe we went into Iraq was stratigic, not so much for oil, I will admit that was part of the equation as all Near East politics is, but more so as a set up to take out our long term enemy Iran. Had the war and subsequent, stablation been executed correctly we would've been staged perfectly to take out the greatest force of destablation Iran. Afganistan to on the N. West Boarder, and Iraq on the East, with Sea to the south and Turkey a Nato ally to the N. Iran, is also a threat to oil prices due to the countries proximity to the striaghts of Hormuz which is a important shipping channel in the Persian Gulf. But W. Fvcked it up by trying to execute the war on the the cheap. He put in too few troops and not enough equipment to secure the peace. Had he listened to his commanders before the war he wouldn't of had the difficulties he had in country. Sometimes Lean Sigma Six will just mess up a good operation, and cause defects. Iraq is a perfect example of that.
Now as to the Cruise missle arguement. Did you know that Iraqi families get paid for every death, caused durring combat related incidents where there is collateral damage? So if I were an Iraqi I would rather be hurt by an American who will fix me, if I can be fixed. At the very least I know my family will be well taken care of.
Earth puppy I have not problems with C.O.'s as long as they are consistant on their views towards war. I dis-like people that cheer/boo war because a particular political party is at war. As far as NPR or PBS, they're dull. I don't watch fox either. I do like the BBC, but mostly I read my news because it is more indepth then anything you'll get from News entertianment. I dislike all the Cable news channels, they're all rubish in my opinion. Fluff and political cheerleading. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 3:17:49 PM | "There really is no way to talk to people who believe in conspiracies, as no matter what you say, they have a BELIEF that is more important, because it fits into their general scheme of life. ....So, yeah, go ahead and believe that 9-11 and Iraq are not connected.........Paul K"
Cheney..Iraq 9/11 connection "turned out not to be true."..."On the question of whether or not Iraq was involved in 9-11, there was never any evidence to prove that,"
Bush...later...."No, we've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September the 11th.."
Gadget..Do you honestly feel that the American people would have been pummeled into a bloodlust if the Bush team had been honest about their real reasons for invading Iraq? Would we have murdered for oil, maimed for strategic military bases, or poisoned for Israel when we were reeling from our own nation's wound. If it had not been for the 935 lies, and instead, some honesty, I doubt seriously that most Americans would have committed to bankrupting the nation, throwing our own into Bush's previously disdained "nation-building", or demanded the murder, poisoning and maiming of millions who had nothing to do with 9/11. I would like to think that...but given the subsequent truth of the matter and severe lack of remorse on our part, it's hard to say what we're willing to kill and die for anymore.
NPR and PBS may be dull, but they at least try to present balanced info for us to sort out. Even they have fallen in their standards. I find better info from British papers, and various other news outlets around the world than I can find in our propagandized, lazy and budget cutting media. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 3:35:50 PM | Hey puppy
We are in financial straights that will be resolved as soon as the fed gets its hand off of the control of industry, and cuts them a few breaks tax wise. What you fail to realize is that even if we weren't in Iraq and Afghanistan, we would still be spending money on the military, so the numbers that all of the cnj's put up as to how much it costs aren't really accurate.
And now we are poisoning too? Millions???
Right.
Paul K | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 3:39:51 PM | Well the thing is 9/11 was a conspirasy by Islamists. Not the American Government. So lets not twist our terms, and be clear about what we're saying.
I knew back in 2003 and most observers noted that Iraq had nothing (to very little) to do with 9/11. Never bought the Iraq 9/11 arguement, it was flimsy. That's me. Would the American people went to war with Iraq in 2003 had W. leveled with them? Sadly yes. We seem to forget the decade of bombing prior to the current war, and the blood lust for Iraq in that period. Many who became oppenents when the political parties changed occupancy of the White House. If you rememeber the was an air of Hubus in that air, much like today.
The problem is that we over simplify complex issues and put them into 3 minute stories. Some issues just can't be explained in 3 minutes. Let's take our other theater for a moment. Some argue that we've been fighting in Afganistan for 8 years. This is true in linear calander years, however when you take into account the winter climate and terrrian, we've only really been fighting there for about half as long. From Late Sep.-Apr. most major fighting stops because the Hymalayian snows makes it impossiable to move, and fight. I wish I could bend the Presidents ear on the region and help him make the best choice he can. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 3:44:58 PM | "And now we are poisoning too? Millions???Right. Paul K"
Never heard of uranium weaponry huh?
Depleted Uranium Weapons: Dead Babies in Iraq and Afghanistan Are No Joke
by Dave Lindorff
The horrors of the US Agent Orange defoliation campaign in Vietnam, about which I wrote on Oct. 15, could ultimately be dwarfed by the horrors caused by the depleted uranium weapons which the US began using in the 1991 Gulf War (300 tons), and which it has used much more extensively--and in more urban, populated areas--in the Iraq War and the now intensifying Afghanistan War.
Depleted uranium, despite its rather benign-sounding name, is not depleted of radioactivity or toxicity. The term �depleted� refers only to its being depleted of the U-235 isotope needed for fission reactions in nuclear reactors. The nuclear waste material from nuclear power plants, DU as it is known, is what is removed from the power plants� spent fuel rods and is essentially composed of the uranium isotope U-238 as well as U-236 (a product of nuclear reactor fission, not found in nature), as well as other trace radioactive elements. Once simply a nuisance for the industry, that still has no permanent way to dispose of the dangerous stuff, it turns out to be an ideal metal for a number of weapons uses, and has been capitalized on by the Pentagon. 1.7 times heavier than lead, and much harder than steel, and with the added property of burning at a super-hot temperature, DU has proven to be an ideal penetrator for warheads that need to pierce thick armor or dense concrete bunkers made of reinforced concrete and steel. Once through the defenses, it burns at a temperature that incinerates anyone inside (which is why we see the carbonized bodies of bodies in the wreckage of Iraqi tanks hit by US fire).
Accordingly it has found its way into 30 mm machine gun ammunition, especially that used by the A-10 Warthog ground-attack fighter planes used extensively in Iraq and Afghanistan (as well as Kosovo). It is also the warhead of choice for Abrams tanks and is also reportedly used in GBU-28 and the later GBU-37 bunker buster bombs, each of which can have 1-2 tons of the stuff in its warhead. DU is also used as ballast in cruise missiles, and this burns up when a missile detonates its conventional explosive. Some cruise missiles are also designed to hit hardened targets and reportedly feature DU warheads, as does the AGM-130 air-to-ground missile, which carries a one-ton penetrating warhead. In addition, depleted uranium is used in large quantities in the armor of tanks and other equipment. This material becomes a toxic source of CU pollution when these vehicles are attacked and burned.
While the Pentagon has continued to claim, against all scientific evidence, that there is no hazard posed by depleted uranium, US troops in Iraq have reportedly been instructed to avoid any sites where these weapons have been used�destroyed Iraqi tanks, exploded bunkers, etc.�and to wear masks if they do have to approach. Many torched vehicles have been brought back to the US, where they have been buried in special sites reserved for dangerously contaminated nuclear materials. (Thousands of tons of DU-contaminated sand from Kuwait, polluted with DU during the US destruction of Iraq�s tank forces in the 1991 war, were removed and shipped to a waste site in Idaho last year with little fanfare.) Suspiciously, international health officials have been prevented or obstructed from doing medical studies of DU sites in Iraq and Afghanistan. But an excellent series of articles several years ago by the Christian Science Monitor described how reporters from that newspaper had visited such sites in Iraq with Geiger-counters and had found them to be extremely �hot� with radioactivity.
The big danger with DU is not as a pure metal, but after it has exploded and burned, when the particles of uranium oxide, which are just as radioactive as the pure isotopes, can be inhaled or ingested. Even the smallest particle of uranium in the body is both deadly poisonous as a chemical, and over time can cause cancer�particularly in the lungs, but also the kidneys, testes and ovaries.
There are reports of a dramatic increase in the incidence of deformed babies being born in the city of Fallujah, where DU weapons were in wide use during the November 2004 assault on that city by US Marines. The British TV station SKY UK, in a report last month that has received no mention in any mainstream American news organization, found a marked increase in birth defects at local hospitals. Birth defects have also been high for years in the Basra area in the south of Iraq, where DU was used not just during America�s 2003 �shock and awe� attack on Iraq, but also in the 1991 Gulf War.
Deformed baby born in post-US Invasion Iraq: DU's legacy?
Further, a report sent to the UN General Assembly by Dr Nawal Majeed Al-Sammarai, Iraq�s Minister of Women�s Affairs since 2006, stated that in September 2009, Fallujah General Hospital had 170 babies born, 24% of which died within their first week of life. Worse yet, fully 75% of the babies born that month were deformed. This compares to August 2002, six months before the US invasion, when 530 live births were reported with only six dying in the first week, and only one deformity. Clearly something terrible is happening in Fallujah, and many doctors suspect it�s the depleted uranium dust that is permeating the city.
But the real impact of the first heavy use of depleted uranium weaponry in populous urban environments (DU was used widely especially in 2003 in Baghdad, Samara, Mosul and other big Iraqi cities), will come over the years, as the toxic legacy of this latest American war crime begins to show up in rising numbers of cancers, birth defects and other genetic disorders in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Of course, as in the case of Agent Orange in Vietnam, the toxic effects of this latest battlefield use of toxic materials by the US military will also be felt for years to come by the men and women who were sent over to fight America�s latest wars. As with Agent Orange, the Pentagon and the Veterans Affairs Department have been assiduously denying the problem, and have been just as assiduously denying claims by veterans of the Gulf War and the two current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan who claim their cancers and other diseases have anything to do with their exposure to DU.
The record on Agent Orange should lead us to be suspicious of the government�s claims.
The deformed and dead babies in Iraq should make us demand a cleanup of Iraq and Afghanistan, medical aid for the victims, and a ban on all depleted uranium weapons.
Global Research Articles by Dave Lindorff | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 4:22:40 PM | Check out stuff from Robert Fisk, Noam Chomsky, Gore Vidal, Seymour Hersh,Aimee Goodman
I'd like to hear your opinions.Are these guys full of shit or is Iraq pretty ****ed up? | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 4:30:04 PM | I will comment on one of the august list you have given us to ponder, although you know what they say about birds of a feather.
YES, noam chomsky is FULL OF $HIT.................... I wouldn't believe him if he told me the world was round..............................
Paul K | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 4:42:44 PM | Emmanuel, they have a communist political axe to grind. So you have to consider the source. Be it Limbaugh, Hannity, Or Fiske, Chomsky, Vital. So, you got look at both sides read some non-fiction, then come up with your own conclustions.
To my knowledge, DU wasn't used in populated areas, against equipment. So I would like to see some other sources then the one stated. However, Veterans Affairs denying something pishshaw, never, ...yeah right. BTW round-up is agent orange, as told to me by a VA doctor. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 5:23:03 PM | Gadget..Being in the VA system, one cannot help but notice the young victims of this DU travesty. One of my friends was one of the most gung ho, willing to go, and is suffering from a myriad of afflictions that literally makes his skin crawl form DU exposure. Herbert is far from a flower child or other some disrespectful label. The man is solid truth, conscientiousness, and dedicated to his comrades.
http://www.newint.org/features/2007/11/01/health-reed/
Dr. Doug Rokke has been silenced in this country because of his whistleblower stance as an expert in the field.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=25045 | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 5:31:02 PM | Hey Emanuel
No, I don't watch Fox news, and I don't watch the major media either. I get news from a variety of sources. For news on Iraq, I have friends who are actually there, some of whom rotate in and out of country depending on what is required of them. Some of these people have been going there for over 5 years. What they tell me is so different than what is heard on major media as to make one wonder if they are talking about the same place. Somehow, I have a tendency to believe the people who actually are there, instead of getting it 3rd hand.
I have a friend in DC who works for a firm that does nothing but read proposed legislation, and then comments on it. They are VERY busy for the very reason that they keep their comments as neutral as possible. Their work is divided about 2/3 for the democrats, the rest for republicans. He is a great source for what is coming down the pipeline, for things that aren't in the news yet. I asked him what would happen if they were to bias their opinion one way or the other. He told me that theirs is not the only firm in town that does what they do, but they are the busiest. When politicians need to know what the proposal really says, theirs is the best bet.
What he told me is that they were expecting to get huge amounts of reading to do when the TARP programs were being discussed, but that didn't happen. I guess nobody really wanted to know what it said....... Can't blame them.
Suggesting that someone read noam chomsky is such a silly thing to do as chomsky is well known and regarded as a far left fool. If you think that he is a great person to follow, all I can do is laugh, as your politics are transparent. chomsky and alinsky are birds of a feather..................... need I say more?
Paul K | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:57:20 PM | | Earthpuppy I wasn't saying it wasn't used. I don't remember it being used in cities, or populated areas. I only have a snapshot in time. And DU is toxic stuff, don't breath it, if you step on it is sounds like florecent lights breaking. DU is Uranium that still has about a 100 year half-life to it? | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/26/2009 10:11:00 PM |
Now as to the Cruise missle arguement. Did you know that Iraqi families get paid for every death, caused durring combat related incidents where there is collateral damage?
Yeah. They're paid $2,000. You must be a republican. Migod man. Collateral damage? Sure pal. Explain that to the family members left live. How sick is that.
At the very least I know my family will be well taken care of.
Yes indeed. That two thousand bucks will fix them right up.
As far as NPR or PBS, they're dull.
Of course. They're just presenting facts. I recommend you go back to looney tunes faux news. They much more entertaining. And they have pictures.
We are in financial straights that will be resolved as soon as the fed gets its hand off of the control of industry, and cuts them a few breaks tax wise.
Oh yes. We need yet more tax breaks for the rich. We can break this country in no time if we keep that up.
What you fail to realize is that even if we weren't in Iraq and Afghanistan, we would still be spending money on the military
A billion a month? On the miliary. For gods sake man what world do you live in? If we hadn't gone into Iraq we could have funded public health care for 50 years.
Well the thing is 9/11 was a conspirasy by Islamists. Not the American Government.
And why did the islamists do that? Have you ever bothered asking that question? Doubtful.
If you rememeber the was an air of Hubus in that air
Are you talking about hubris? This is the most disjointed discourse I've ever heard from an adult.
This is true in linear calander years, however when you take into account the winter climate and terrrian, we've only really been fighting there for about half as long.
What the hell are you on about? Dog years?
DU is toxic stuff, don't breath it, if you step on it is sounds like florecent lights breaking. DU is Uranium that still has about a 100 year half-life to it?
And that's not poisonous? Are you completely out of your mind? | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/26/2009 11:38:07 PM | "DU is toxic stuff, don't breath it, if you step on it is sounds like florecent lights breaking. DU is Uranium that still has about a 100 year half-life to it?"
The half-life of DU is 4,510,000,000 years, about the same time our sun will burn out. The Iraqis and our veterans exposed, are screwed. Some call it "freedom".
http://www.ccnr.org/du_hague.html
Please go back to my previous post and read Herbert Reed's story. His tale is typical of what will happen to millions. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/27/2009 4:11:47 AM | | The "Mission accomplished" delusion persists and reality be damned. Fvck it. There's no point to this. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/27/2009 1:19:01 PM | Roundup kills weeds because glyphosate (a salt compound) inhibits enzyme pathways, preventing plants from synthesizing amino acids necessary for growth. It basically stops plants from eating, so they die. When used according to label directions there is no carryover into the soil or groundwater. You may seed an area sprayed with Roundup seven days later, and your dogs and children can walk in any area sprayed
BTW round-up is agent orange, as told to me by a VA doctor.
Don't believe everything your VA Doctor tells you....
with Roundup after waiting just 24 hours. Yes, glyphosate typically has a half-life in the soil of around 30 days. (Half-life is how long it takes a compound to break down halfway.) Well, everything has a half-life in soil. A 30-day half-life is amazing, to be so brief. Registering a half-life is a bad thing if the compound, during the half-life, adversely affects the soil, or groundwater, or plants to come, and it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't. Glyphosate doesn't.
Agent Orange is a completely different, unbelievably more powerful toxin. It's pretty well understood now that just whiffing it can cause a wide range of diseases, and that living in areas that were sprayed can cause birth defects in humans. It remains in the soil indefinitely. Over in Vietnam right now, areas that were sprayed in the '60s are still not suitable for growing crops. Disturb that soil today and the chemical is released once again, causing major harm to humans, wildlife, flora, and the environment in general. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/27/2009 2:27:18 PM |
BTW round-up is agent orange, as told to me by a VA doctor.
Roundup has only been around since 1970 ....Agent orange has been around since the 40s'.These are two different chemicals. | |
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| Is Iraq really free now?
Posted: 10/27/2009 2:44:06 PM | What you fail to realize is that even if we weren't in Iraq and Afghanistan, we would still be spending money on the military, so the numbers that all of the cnj's put up as to how much it costs aren't really accurate.
The dollar figures are quite accurate thank you. If the troops that are in Iraq and Afghanistan were here...we wouldn't be paying Haliburton $100 to wash a duffle bag full of laundry. In bacteria laden water i would like to add. We also would not have paid KBR(subsidiary of Haliburton) to do such fine electrical work over there. Heck, they've only electrocuted ..um..HOW MANY of our soldiers ?
It seems the price on life has gone up. In Vietnam the price of a life was $120 for a child.
The price for a cow or bull or other working farm animal was much more. The price paid to Michelin for damaging one of their rubber trees was $600. | |
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