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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 12:06:33 PM | Hey exo.......
you wrote:
"Basically, what happens if Bill-Gates buys and regulates all the planets computer systems (including all the enterprises on the internet). What happens then if Bill Gates decides to be an ass-hole?''
In order to get an answer for a question that is based on reality, your question has to be based on reality. This is the type of question my daughter would ask when she was 8 years old............. Why not Dad, why not, oh yeah, how do you know.......... The "how do you know" was the one that always made me laugh, and so in answer to your question, I have one of my own...............
What if the sky falls????? AND, how do you know it won't????? HUH??? HUH???
Freedom is much more than just a mindset. Just ask those who live under totalitarian regimes, and would risk their lives just to get out, and do take that risk every day. Slavery is much more than you not being able to go to a ball game because you have to finish a project at work. One bit of free advice...........Grow up.
Paul K | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 1:11:56 PM |
What if the sky falls????? AND, how do you know it won't????? HUH??? HUH???
Thats actually a good question. If I try and answer it I'm sure I would learn a thing or two more about physics. Personally I'm not one who believes questions have to based on reality. That is limiting as I can only perceive what reality is. Your reality is not my reality. One thing I have found is that, generally, people try to make other people think the same way as them. I just don't agree with that.
In order to get an answer for a question that is based on reality, your question has to be based on reality. This is the type of question my daughter would ask when she was 8 years old.............
Then in my opinion your daughter is very smart.
"Basically, what happens if Bill-Gates buys and regulates all the planets computer systems (including all the enterprises on the internet). What happens then if Bill Gates decides to be an ass-hole?''
It was mean to be rhetorical.
What happens when a king chooses to be an ass hole? What happens when a dictator chooses to be an ass hole?
Just ask those who live under totalitarian regimes, and would risk their lives just to get out, and do take that risk every day.
You just answered the question.
Slavery is much more than you not being able to go to a ball game because you have to finish a project at work I know and thats why I said... This thinking, however, only works if one thinks of freedom as the perception of one's mentality. What I'm trying to say is that, even if you're in a totalitarian regime, if you're happy and you think you're free then you're free. So if your definition of freedom is not literal and dependent on ones perception on it then you are as free as you think you are. But I knew that wouldn't hold up with this discussion so I said: If freedom, concerning the OP, is thought of as physically real and dependent on resources and produce then the most free man is the one who is capable of manipulating and controlling all the worlds resources What does this mean? Think about it... really think about. What would have happened if Hitler conquered europe? (Its rhetorical, just think about it) Basically, what happens if Bill-Gates buys and regulates all the planets computer systems (including all the enterprises on the internet). What happens then if Bill Gates decides to be an ass-hole? Okay lets make it realistic. Lets say Bill Gates is now a corporation. Lets say the corporation is EPG (some random corporation). Now lets say this corporation is stupid powerful and crazy rich. Now lets say the corporation goes to a poverty stricken country. This country needs money and the corporation strikes a deal with the country. The deal is that the corporation will use the countries people for cheap labour. Children will work for 1 cent an hour for 16 hours per day. They have no benefits and no rights. The countries people are just a resource to the corporation. The catch-22 is that if the countries people quit working for the corporation they will literally starve to death. This is where I think the OP is debatable. One bit of free advice...........Grow up I'll take that into consideration. Let me reciprocate....... Grow up :) | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 1:58:33 PM |
"Basically, what happens if Bill-Gates buys and regulates all the planets computer systems (including all the enterprises on the internet). What happens then if Bill Gates decides to be an ass-hole?'' -exo
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In order to get an answer for a question that is based on reality, your question has to be based on reality. This is the type of question my daughter would ask when she was 8 years old............. Why not Dad, why not, oh yeah, how do you know.......... The "how do you know" was the one that always made me laugh, and so in answer to your question, I have one of my own............... -paul
Look up, strawman's argument...
And then, come back and engage...
(Hey, I had to learn it too...)
Freedom is much more than just a mindset.
And then, go reread exo's posts...
And then get back with us... | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 2:24:49 PM | | People can't even agree on what constitutes a good soufflé. It'll be a long while before we bang out a good definition for freedom. This isn't textbook slavery anyway. Don't you think people would revolt if it were? It's more subtle. This slavery is trickier. Your rulers have adapted. If you're not paying attention you might actually believe that you're free because the streets are paved, you have shopping malls, nice suburban homes and a German automobile parked in the driveway. It's a F(_)cking intelligence test for god sakes. | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 2:31:11 PM | If it's more subtle, then it's not slavery.
Slavery is an absolute condition. Kind of like complaining that your neighbour is trying to kill you because sometimes the sidewalk gets wet when he waters his lawn.
You come across as a whiner. And you're trying to wear the victim's mantle because people are tired of listening to you whine. | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 2:42:07 PM |
People can't even agree on what constitutes a good soufflé.
I disagree.
It'll be a long while before we bang out a good definition for freedom.
Freedom in the rhetoric, or freedom in the specific. Dealer's choice...
Don't you think people would revolt if it were? It's more subtle.
Agreed.
This slavery is trickier.
It is less like slavery, and more like indentured servitude...with a catch-22...within a power over society.
If you're not paying attention you might actually believe that you're free because the streets are paved, you have shopping malls, nice suburban homes and a German automobile parked in the driveway.
Instead of assuming...maybe "ask" people, if their own ideas of how their life is, is how it should be... | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 4:22:04 PM | | halftimedad, seriously, why would I care how you think I come across? I did not post this for the validation of anyone here, and certainly not for yours. It's just my opinion, don't sweat it so much. You don't like what I have to say, move on. Too much focus on my character, brother. If you don't like the ending of a novel, do you also write the author with a letter of disapproval? | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 7:50:44 PM | Re: nothinglefttoburn
It'll be a long while before we bang out a good definition for freedom.
Freedom:
Freedom is the right to act according to ones will without being held up by the power of others. From a philosophical point of view, it can be defined as the capacity to determine your own choices. It can be defined negatively as an absence of subordination, servitude and constraint.
Political freedom:
Political freedom is the absence of interference with the sovereignty of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression.
There was a point in time when Barack Obama would have been considered a slave in certain parts of the United States. Civil Wars for freedom where fault over that injustice and many people died for the right you spit on. Today he is the President of the united states and he didn't accomplish this historic feat by sitting around complaining about people being enslaved to their governments.
With that said
Sure, the Government holds a lot of power... They keep people in line with there laws, and it's funded by the taxes. Most people in a position of power get huge pay checks... I say... good for them! If I worked as hard as they did, I would think I deserved that kind of pay as well. There are a few political leaders that came into it ritch to start off with and waved off their rights to their ridicules government salary's (Arnold is a great example of that one)
What would be you're ultimate agenda here with this conversation? Do you think they are doing such a bad job that they should all step down, and people should be allowed to govern themselves? How well do you think that would play out... people NEED a leader, and they will flock to the strongest people around them for protection. People will want land from one another... and as you step backwards, you will realize that the person with the biggest stick, wins. That is human nature, and without leadership, we would revert back to it instantly.
Things may not be perfect, but by God they are much better than some of the alternative direction man kind could have taken. | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/20/2009 11:03:12 PM | | Well nothing, you make the claim that you "didn't make any of this up"- implying that what you say is an absolute truth. By what standard of truth? What makes your statements more credible than the people who critise your or Harry Browne's beliefs? | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 12:25:23 AM | Hey nothing..............
Get off of the cross, we need the wood............
(STOP BEING A WHINEY BEATCH)
If you really think that you are living as a slave, that tells me that you have absolutely no clue on just how bad some people really have it, and that is sad. It is sad because here you are moaning on how bad you have it when you have a dry warm place to sleep, you eat when hungry and probably even have double layer toilet paper to wipe your ass with.......................
One more time, Grow up.
Paul K | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 1:16:38 AM | | Pauls got a valid argument. True Slavery is really terrible, and horrible things are done to people who endure slavery. To associate that with not owning your own business- thats really pissing on everything those people endure. | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 9:01:43 AM | Hey flower
What I was doing was to point out the difference between slavery and an attitude that seems to be prevalent today among some who think that they are owed everything, and that every little "hardship" they endure makes them a slave.
boo hooo poor me.....................
Stop beng a martyr and get off the cross........ we still need the wood.
Paul K | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 1:19:27 PM | Paul K, thankfully, I don't reside in the US, I come and go really. When I get tired of the bull$shit, I leave. But I did feel that way when I lived in the US. Sometimes you have to take the fish out of the fish water to see the bigger picture. Folks like you, Paul, that have never experienced other cultures stick out like a sore thumb. Try sampling different cultures/economies before passing final judgment.
I wouldn't call myself a martyr. I feel passionate about certain topics so I talk about them. It's very simple really. | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 1:25:49 PM | Message 1
Wasnt Marx a dirty filthy communist.
He was a madman whose ideas caused >100 million deaths all round the world. Russia, Siberia, Ukraine, Chechnya, Georgia, USSR, Poland. East Germany, Hungary, Checkosolvkia, Yugoslavia ,Mozambique, Angola, Vietnam, Korea, Nicaragua, Peru, Nepal, China.
Nothing enslaved people more than the ideas of that dirty filthy communist Marx. Ask anyone from Poland, Czhec Republic, Lativia, Estonia | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 1:32:40 PM | Marx was Marx. My father is Russian, and he did not think Marx was a "dirty filthy communist, so not all Russians feel that way. And not everyone feels that the US economic culture is fascist. I guess opinions vary.
And to give your misunderstanding some clarity, Paul, I never claimed to personally feel like a slave. I am quite happy with my lifestyle, so thanks for your concern. Whatever gave you that idea anyway? You know what they say about assume- it makes an A$$ out of U and ME. | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 2:41:47 PM | Hey nothing
Lets talk about ASSumptions................
Just for your own personal edification, I was born in a communist country, Yugoslavia, and imigrated legally to the US in the late '50's. Since then I have traveled back to Europe quite a few times, to the Islands, to many places. I've seen a large part of the world, and have yet to see anywhere that communism was actually good for the people who lived there. It is the ulitimate dis-spiriting form of government there is. And that is fact, not opinion.
I've actually lived under communism, my family did whatever it took to get out, to the point where I have an uncle who was jailed 4 times by the communist **stards. They did everything they could to keep people in the country, otherwise anybody who could leave, would leave. Unless you've lived it, you have no idea. Marx WAS a filthy **stard, and his system IS responsible for more deaths than can be counted. The thing that is so bad about the system is that the leaders that were responsible for these deaths killed their own people....... Unlike Hitler who marked the jews for extermination, the Japanese who wanted to control China..... These communist **stards KILLED THEIR OWN. Stalin and Mao come to mind.
Before you presume to lecture others, you really need to get your own ducks in line.
A few more things. You need to look up the definition of "fascist", and see if it really applies to the USA. If you are so happy with your life style, then why do you come and go out of the US? If the US is so bad, STAY THE EFF OUT; we won't miss you. People who only know about communism from books and leftist professors are LEGION. They are also some of the ones who are perpetrating the myths of just how good it is. Get a real education about how things really are, talk to people who actually lived it, then pop off about how the US is facist, and marx was not a bad guy.
Paul K | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 3:15:32 PM | | PaulK, your problem is that you're not listening to me because you're too involved in making your own cheap point.... you make so many assumptions. Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem, selective hearing/reading, whatever. But I support communism? I quote a line from The Communist Manifesto and I support communism? Get a grip dude. I never once said that I agree with communism as a political system. And if you have traveled the world, as you say, on one hand, that's great, on the other hand, it hasn't made you more humble, sadly. And you want to know why I travel in and out of the US? Friends and family & I love the landscape. There's nothing wrong with the geographical makeup of the US, I love it. Can't speak so highly about the government. | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 3:34:25 PM | RE Msg: 34 by Light Storm:
Political freedom:
Political freedom is the absence of interference with the sovereignty of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression.
There was a point in time when Barack Obama would have been considered a slave in certain parts of the United States. Civil Wars for freedom where fault over that injustice and many people died for the right you spit on. Today he is the President of the united states and he didn't accomplish this historic feat by sitting around complaining about people being enslaved to their governments. FYI, many in the UK considered that political freedom ended, when laws were passed that required you to request the right to protest outside Parliament, and that the government, via the police, have the power to veto your constitutional right to protest. Well, that and a few other cases, such as when an old member of the Labour party in his 80s was thrown out of the Labour Party conference for having an opinion that was different to Blair. | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 3:52:21 PM | Hey nothing
Thank you for pointing out all the assumptions I am making. Remember this, humility, especially false humilty, is way overrated. Have enough guts to stand up and say what you mean.
As far as your opinion of our government, I am also certain that many of us here are all broken up that you can't speak so highly of our system of governance. You should somehow tell all of the folks who do think highly enough of our system, even to the point of enduring incredible hardships to come here to live, what a mistake they are making. Perhaps that will prevent them making the mistake of their lives, and go back to the paradise they left...................
Paul K | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:22:20 PM |
here you are moaning on how bad you have it...
Straw man's argument:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1] [2]
Where in the original post did the original poster moan about how bad he has it?
To prove that your argument is not a straw man's argument, please quote at which point the original poster moaned. Consider that the definition according to the context of your sentences is "to complain or lament" as in "woe is my fate". Where did the poster indicate that HE has it bad?
As I see it, all the poster was saying was that we have digressed from a point of freedom to a point where the common man with a protestant work ethic is not far off from being enslaved.
He then backed up his position by listing criterions for an enslaved nation with explanations to defend his position. To further his position he then listed solutions he thinks would rectify the issue.
Think about it...was he really complaining? Albeit that his position is somewhat radical, was it really a complaint.
Let me dumb down.
"Hey I see a problem and I can prove it with these criterions. Now that we know what the problem is this is what I think the solution is."
Is that really him moaning? A system can always be made better as no system, as far as we know, is perfect. To improve a system certain elements of that system which do not function efficiently must be pointed out as problems. Then a solution to improve the system from the problem can be developed:
So number one-Do something to regain the means of production so you're not held by the whim of your employer.
Number two- people have no effective control over their ruling structure. When you have a national government that places most of the restrictions over you, the average person has no control over that. The best solution I've ever seen to this beyond a collective movement is that large distant governing structures tend to be very slow and easy for a motivated focused individual to outmaneuver.
Number 3- refer to the solution in number 1 and read how I found freedom in an unfree world by Harry Brown. Once you regain the means to production you find legally many loopholes in tax and taxation is easier to evade. The mega rich put plenty of loopholes for themselves so they don't have to pay the tax that the proletariat pays. Once you are your own boss you can escape quite a bit of tax.
Number 4- Don't hold a debt currency. Invest in precious metals, own a business, own land, whatever retains underlined value.
The above is the posters solution. Now think carefully. Was the poster complaining?
Also doesn't solution number 4 require hard work? Didn't the poster say
Eternal diligence is the price of freedom
Then how can you come up with this conclusion...
What I was doing was to point out the difference between slavery and an attitude that seems to be prevalent today among some who think that they are owed everything, and that every little "hardship" they endure makes them a slave...
I agree that the posters use of the word slavery and freedom is not correct for his position but your whole attack (and it is an attack) on the poster is well...dafter than a straw man's argument.
In my opinion the poster used a radical tone to point out a subtle phenomenon with the system our western culture uses today. That if one is not diligent, then they are mere resources of the system bound by a catch-22. (like credit card debt.)
One more time, Grow up.
I realize that there is a high probability that you are of the type who will drag a person down to their level and massacre them with daftness and a generally annoying attitude. So I expect a reply to this post of that nature. Don't disappoint me :)
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:27:09 PM | Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem, selective hearing/reading, whatever.
I was wondering the same thing...
Stop being a martyr and get off the cross........ we still need the wood.
How about I kick the pedestal out from underneath ya...I could still use the wood...
I realize that there is a high probability that you are of the type who will drag a person down to their level and massacre them with daftness and a generally annoying attitude.
Laughing my butt off...
Too true, too true... | |
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| Five Criteria of an Enslaved People
Posted: 10/21/2009 9:42:38 PM | So money is freedom? Heh, seems you don't really understand what freedom really means in the first place. Here's a clue...you can always drop out of society. There are still plenty of people out there that live off the land. Learn to hunt, fish, grow food, make your own clothes. You can live a nomadic lifestyle out in the wilds if you choose without ever having to own land or little more than what you need to live off the land. You can forage, hunt, create your own tools and weapons, all free of charge.
If you choose to live in a populated area like a city, town, village, there are rules, responsibilities and costs associated with these luxuries. No one is forcing you to do so. Own nothing. Footloose and fancy free as it were. Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. Slavery is a state of mind, much like someone in a uniform is an extension of someone elses will.
You have choices, be they palatable or otherwise. That IS freedom. | |
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