| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:13:12 AM |
there is a difference between talking on the phone whilst driving and being a glutton. Both forms of stupidity, but a glutton has the choice to stop it.. so that argument is redundant in this case.
To be fair both have a choice.
then before any casualties of a car accident could be treated the medical staff would have to determine whose fault the accident was. "Oh, you were talking on your phone while driving, were you? Then you'll just have to bleed to death."
AS he has already received hospital help for this problem and he knows about it and it is a long term problem, he has had plenty of time to react to the situation, unlike someone driving a car. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:14:09 AM | swanspirit/cheekyjules,
i just have to disagree with you there, getting fat is a choice, even with an eating disorder as is getting bone slim with anorexia. disorders can be treated, with anorexia its usualy mental. with fat its usualy lack of excercise and poor diet.
If someone has an eating disorder and is aware of it then surely they should know its the disorder that makes them eat?? logically one should cut down on what one eats or is that a bit much to ask? likewise anorexics realise not eating will kill them, so again its choice to start putting food in their mouths. yes i'm simplifying very much, and i have seen anorexia through working in hospital, its not a pritty thing at all, but with the opposite end of the scale obesity is a problem too (esp for nurses backs). anorexics with metal treatment get healthy, People with over-eating disorders get mental treatment and a treadmill.
at some point a person has to stop and ask themselves how fat is too fat, as i've reacently said, i've gained a stone and i'm worried about it. started exercising more and generaly eating less (but eating healthy meals too). and as most have said, how could they let him get to this size to begin with.
so basic statement. obesity is a choice, much like smoking. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:17:54 AM | This man is confined to a reinforced bed now, he has to have bed baths and the last time he left the house was for a barbecue in the garden whilst on the bed. He lost the 20 stones a few years ago because he was unable to feed his addiction, the NHS is now feeding that addiction and providing lots of care and physiotherapy.
I have no problems him receiving help but it should be on the condition he gradually reduces his 20,000 calorie a day intake.
He did work previously as a Post man and his emotional problems apparently stem from two failed relationships. His mother lost her home due to his eating.
So the help should be conditional and if he refuses to meet the conditions of that help then the same decision should be made as for alcoholic after a new liver and refusing to stop drinking - help withdrawn till they unfortunately kill themselves or start to help themselves. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:18:40 AM |
there is a difference between talking on the phone whilst driving and being a glutton. Both forms of stupidity, but a glutton has the choice to stop it.. so that argument is redundant in this case.
But the three billion cost to the NHS of alcohol related treatments is preventable.
If people drank sensibly.
In fact if everybody was "risk-averse" and didn't take part in pursuits like horse riding, or ride motorbikes, the costs saved would be massive!
If people behaved sensibly, many illnesses and injuries would be prevented.
We all pay for the NHS and it's simple to pick out one category and say "you don't do this, why should you pay?"
Why should I pay for boxers to have their noses fixed? they didn't have to choose to get in the ring....
Smokers, fat people, whatever, the NHS is there to catch us when we fall, that's why I don't, and have never minded paying for it. It's universal care as needed.
They treat a lot of people for things that I don't do.
I do object to paying for the "royal family" though. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:25:12 AM | There are also psychological factors surely with someone as heavy as this. No sane person would choose to eat themselves to 70 stones. Do we wonder why so many people end up on the diet rollercoaster of gain weight, lose weight, gain weight, lose it, put a bit more back on?
If it was just as simple as eating less and exercising more then there would be no need for any slimming clubs. There's are multi million pound businesses.
A lot of people have a very unhealthy relationship with food, anorexics, bullimics, compulsive eaters. A stone won't be a hardship to lose if you are in the right mindset.
His mum apparently lost her home because of the size of his food bills. He doesn't have a normal relationship with food and until he does, he will continue to lose weight and gain it.
I have to say the people who are being paid to care for him, must be under orders to buy him whatever food he wants, as he is still being fed junk and given that he is allegedly on 60 quid a week Incapacity Benefit, I wonder just how all these junk meals are being paid for.
Logic doesn't come into it when people are compulsive eaters, or anorexics, or bulimics.
He needs psychological help as well as an operation in my view.
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:29:15 AM |
Why should I pay for boxers to have their noses fixed? they didn't have to choose to get in the ring....
Smokers, fat people, whatever, the NHS is there to catch us when we fall, that's why I don't, and have never minded paying for it. It's universal care as needed.
They treat a lot of people for things that I don't do.
There are risks in life but you have to take them in your profession and your normal daily routine. A boxer breaking his nose is an accident and wasn't done on purpose and should receive the treatment, there is a chance that as a boxer it will happen again but that is one of those things.
A smoker will receive palliative care when they are ill for a smoking related illness the same as anyone, alcoholic, obese person etc. When it comes too expensive surgery and additional health care I feel that if it isn't immediately life threatening and they can help themselves they need to demonstrate a will and desire to do it first, if they need psychotherapy support for that it should be given. If they are intent on killing themselves it is sad but it is their choice. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:42:45 AM | The way I see it everyone should have treatment no matter what their illness is and regardless of cost, aint that what the NHS is about, having a responsibility to provide the best care for all its patients.
Lets just say that he was refused treatment for being 70 stone what happens next, lets refuse treatment to someone over 60 stone, where is the line drawn, lets not treat smokers, alcoholics, drug users and so on.
Free NHS treatment for all regardless of illness or cost.. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:45:29 AM | what is the point of treating people though if they don't want to give up that particular "addiction"? because once they have been operated on, the likelyhood of them starting up again are high.. i still maintain that if you need something so bad, you should definitely rethink your life style first and try to do something instead of just taking the easy way out?
jees.. no wonder people look at western civilisation with utter contempt.. we smoke, drink and eat far too much..cry and moan about it.. get it fixed and start all over. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:46:17 AM |
if some one can't help themself, why should we..the tax payer..be obligated to help them?
So lets just say, you have a car accident, you cant walk, you need physiotherapy .. why should we the tax payer pay for you to be rehabilitated when you chose to get in that car and drive carelessly? | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:47:16 AM | heres an answer... lets treat the "obese" people who can walk themselves through hospital doors??
or would that be a bit draconian?
the NHS is there to help people get better, and treat illnesses, but you cant treat people who arn't willing to help themselves.
The 70 stone dude must have seen he was gaining weight, must have known he was eating too much, yet refused to get help for it?? that doesnt compute in my head.
obesity is a choice.
^^^^
CheekyJ, its an accident as you said at the start of the sentance, getting fat is no accident. even if he/she was driving carelessly its assumed this person will recover and get out the hospital to go back to living a life.
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:55:11 AM | So lets just say, you have a car accident, you cant walk, you need physiotherapy .. why should we the tax payer pay for you to be rehabilitated when you chose to get in that car and drive carelessly?
The cause for the man to be fat is overeating and no exercise.
The cause for not being able to walk is driving stupidly
Both are entitled to healthcare, for treatment to continue for the obese man he needs to try and fight his addiction, cut down on his intake and if he doesn't then he gets no further help.
The man who can't walk gets the immediate help needed, he then requires physio, if he wont try and doesn't do what is asked during those sessions then he gets no further help.
This man has been helped for a long time and has done nothing for himself. Let him lose 5 stones, would be easy with minimal will power for a man of his size, and then he can have the treatment.
Edit
careless drivers are in a different field
sometimes in ditches too | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:55:52 AM | cheekyjules, that is irrelevant and redundant.. careless drivers are in a different field to fatty fat fats. Also, i am not a careless driver, i have a child.
Also, i am on Bupa.. so i don't use the NHS =) | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 7:58:50 AM | CheekyJ, its an accident as you said at the start of the sentance, getting fat is no accident
BUT its a mental illness.... why arn't people getting that..?????
Sorry but this thread is just showing t me how small minded alot of the forum is.
Like anorexics.. we help, they use nhs fundings.. yet they still dont eat.. what are we ment to do? give up on people.? thats not right.
am not a careless driver, i have a child.
having a kid dont make you perfect mr!
So your on Bupa.. bully for you, alot of people cant afford that.
The NHS is here for a reason to help all .. to pick and chose who to treat is disgusting. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:03:00 AM | | I find it inexcusable that he was allowed to even get to this weight without any intervention but what annoys me the most is the fact he didn’t get that size himself someone must be cooking the food ordering the takeouts delivering the meals and in doing so helping him pile on the pounds.. he lives on benefit handouts that can’t possibly be enough to keep him in that amount of food so blame the fat feeders and let them take up some of the cost… I read someplace he lost 20 stone in hospital and was actually disappointed and went back home and back on the take outs to actively make it to being the worlds heaviest man… | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:07:13 AM | it doesn't make me perfect, no.. but it makes me a damn good driver for my daughter's sake...
all i am saying is.. what right do people have to actually help people who do not want to be helped? that in itself is ethically wrong making people do something they wish not to..
so, you want some one to get better? but they don't want to.. so you force them to take what ever so they get better for a better peace of mind for you....
How exactly... please enlighten me... does that make your views better then mine.
forcing people to have something (your view) or treating those who want help (my view) | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:09:25 AM |
BUT its a mental illness.... why arn't people getting that..?
I think people get it Jules, just not buying it. In the case of this man he physically cannot make anything for himself, surely a dietician would know how to amend his diet and reduce a 20,000 calorie intake and still let him feel his appetite is satisfied. Take away meals are no excuse, just a cop out…come on you can’t be putting that behaviour down to being mentally ill. Anorexia is different, you cannot force someone to eat if they refuse. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:13:18 AM | I think everything Jules said was spot on.
We could and I'm sure have had the same discussions about people who use alcohol to excess, drugs, now it's food. Some people turn to food in times of stress, other people use alcohol, drugs, cigarettes.
I wonder how many people out there criticising this man smoke 20 a day, or drink to excess. The fact is, this man is not going to lose this weight without some help.
100 grand a year is already being spent on his care, that will continue if something is not done.
I would like to know where social services fit into all this, because I would imagine he doesn't just get Incapacity Benefit, he must be on some other benefit perhaps DLA due to needing so much care.
The meals he is eating as part of this care package do not seem to be very healthy.
I am aware that the people who are providing care, if it is the social work dept will have to adhere to his wishes about what he wants to eat, but the junk food is killing him.
He should have been hospitalised long ago in my view, when he started gaining weight again.
Look at that family in Dundee who had kids removed from them because of their weight issues yet this man is eating himself to death.
It's been reported that his carers are the people who are keeping him supplied in takeaways, probably paid for by his money, but he is being allowed to continue to eat junk day in day out.
As for obesity being just someone who cant stop eating, there are illnesses that cause people to overeat, although it hasn't been reported that this man is suffering from one of them.
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:14:32 AM | so, you want some one to get better? but they don't want to.. so you force them to take what ever so they get better for a better peace of mind for you....
How exactly... please enlighten me... does that make your views better then mine
The operation cant go ahead without the patients consent form signed. If the man signs the consent then he wants help.
come on you can’t be putting that behaviour down to being mentally ill
so you think this mans behaviour is rational and stable then? I dont, I think he has mental health issues to be feeling the way he does about food. | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:19:02 AM | It is a compulsion. In the same why any addiction is a compulsion. It is a strong, and usually irresistable, urge you get to eat. The same why gambling addicts get a strong adn usually irresitable urge to bet their life's savings and put their families at risk. The same way alcoholics get a strong, and usually irresistable, urge to drink. The same way an arsonist get a strong, and usually irresistable, urge to burn things down.
Why are the others mental disorders but compulsive eating disorder and other eating disorders not a mental problem? | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:20:20 AM | He's suffering from a medical condition, therefore just as entitled to any help the N.H.S. can offer him, much the same as crackheads, junkies, boy racers and drunk drivers involved in smashes, even burglars who fall from roofs get the same treatment offered to the policeman who falls while trying to apprehend them.
<div class="quote">cheekyjules, that is irrelevant and redundant.. careless drivers are in a different field to fatty fat fats. Also, i am not a careless driver, i have a child.
I have 3 children, does that mean no-one is going to pull out and crash into me? No it doesnt, and guess what....everyone injured in that crash would be offered treatment at the same level, so who the hell are we to say who deserves what, if you dont like the fact that this man is receiving the treatment that he is legally entitled to, register your protest by refusing any life-saving treatment that you or your family may need, that'll show em' that you mean business! | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:22:05 AM |
Let him lose 5 stones, would be easy with minimal will power for a man of his size, and then he can have the treatment.
What if he dies before he loses 5 stone, brilliant that eh, like I said before the NHS has a responsibility to provide the best care for all its patients.
Who has the right to decide how much weight a person loses before being accepted for treatment whithin the NHS.?.
IMO no one.
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:22:35 AM | I haven't had a chance to read all the facts about this but to me, isn't his mother at least partly responsible? I'm sure we have all seen children in our towns and thought 'my god, that child is overweight. Bet their mum/dad feeds them chips and pizza every night..' If children aren't given a good diet with everything in moderation, they will always have a tendency to be overweight. This man's mother must have had at least partial blame for thinking 'oh poor little johnny, he's a growing lad, let's just give him another pie' and started on this road downhill to where he is now.
I remember years ago in the police we were called to assist the brigade remove a body from a 2nd floor flat. This was a morbidly obese man who weighed an enormous amount who had died in the bed that had been his home for the last few years. The guy was so large that they physically couldn't get him out of the door............the answer? They rolled him up in a tarpaulin and used a crane to take him out of the window. Is this how you would want to end your life? Nope, me either | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:25:14 AM |
I think he has mental health issues to be feeling the way he does about food.
How does he feel about food? What type of food? Any food, junk food. If his care is being provided then I assume there are more than just carers. People must be able to intervene. A drug user has an “addiction” to drugs but a carer is not expected to inject them with heroin or whatever their addiction is. I’ll agree the man has issues and has a right to be treated but while being “cared for” I don’t beleive he has a right to an unhealthy diet that can be changed for him…not at that cost!
Cruel to be kind…eat some salad! | |
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| Does 70 stone man deserve NHS treatment?
Posted: 10/21/2009 8:27:24 AM | | the problem is... sure, he can sign the paper saying he wants to change and then get the surgery... but i bet you 10 years down the line he will be asking for it again. He just wants a quick fix, because if he truely wanted to solve the problem before it got to the ridiculous stage it is at now..he would of sought help and not be in this predicament. | |
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