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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:20:52 PM | ^^^^ I think women are very clever at employing the old equality/choice switcheroo:
saying 'equality' is the dominant factor when that leads to the better thing for them, but then switching to 'choice' as the important operative principle when that gives them what they want.
This thread assumes all women WANT to be wives and mothers.
Not sure about the "wives" part, but basically some 85% want to be either or both of those things.
Research has shown only ~10-15% of women have what might be called a male brain and think entirely in terms of career and accomplishing things in the public sphere, with little or now interest in having kids, being a mom, etc. This number is much smaller than is widely thought. I.e., over the last couple of decades they've had a disproportionate share in influencing public opinion.
About 25% of women want little or nothing more than to be stay-at-home mothers and homemakers. They tend not to do very well in the workplace because it doesn't suit them very well, and since it's low on their natural inclination list they only work as little as is absolutely necessary.
The remaining 60-65% of women express a desire for both family and career, in varying proportions, which themselves vary with where they are in both.
So even if the accusation about "this thread assumes all women WANT to be wives and mothers" were true, the assumption would be ~85-90% true, and thus not a bad assumption.
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:23:31 PM |
The key word here is "choice". The movement was supposed to be about choice, so women could choose to work or not, to marry or not, to have kids or not. It was supposed to allow women to have the option of not going with what society felt they had to do.
True. What I think the op was getting at is that, while women have transcended that social standard and now have a choice, society still feels it's not appropriate for the dads to stay home and not work - id est - guys don't have a meaningful choice. Based solely on the feminine responses in this thread, it would seem his hypothesis is accurate. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:23:52 PM |
Seriously?
Historically, women have always worked. Schoolteachers, usually women...Secretaries, usually women...Nurses, usually women...
During the wars, while the men were doing battle....women took up the slack, and provided "comforts of home" in the way of home made care packages for the soldiers as well.
During all this time, were all these women single, with no kids? I highly doubt it..
But I think a lot of women actually WANTED to leave the workforce and devote themselves fully to parenting. I think very few wanted to remain in the glamorous field of manufacturing. Besides, most Men who men who returned from the war wanted full-time employment to support their wives and children, I'm doubtful that the men wanted to become stay-at-home parents, and have the wife work in a factory.
In my opinion, half of women in today's society prefer to be full-time mothers or only work part-time. The other half of women want to work Full-Time. A lot of single women only work to land a successful husband. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:30:17 PM |
A lot of women in the workforce may not have kids, or husbands or both - because it wasn't ever their thing..
Well, I'm primarily referring to families with children. Divorced parents work because they have to and they have to pay for 2 households. Single women work because they have to suppor tthemselves. Its certainly a rarity these days with a Married Family having one income. Some people say that its better for one parent to be a full-time parent and raise the children. I think that contraception has changed Family/Married life and Economic freedom for women, more than any Government legislation or movement. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:32:48 PM | However, many women seem uncomfortable taking on the responsibility of the primary earner because it takes away from spending time with the children. In marriage, it seems that the traditional salary stigmas are still strong - that men should work and that women want to stay home to raise the children.
Firstly, the premise is wrong. OP seems to think women are "uncomfy" because of traditional family "stigmas", as he calls them. He seems to think that only women want to spend time with their kids; he seems to think that dads never get the chance to stay at home with the kids.
But is this the change that Women want for "Women's Equality"?
Economic downturn? You blame feminism for THAT?!
What I think the op was getting at is that, while women have transcended that social standard and now have a choice, society still feels it's not appropriate for the dads to stay home and not work - id est - guys don't have a meaningful choice. Based solely on the feminine responses in this thread, it would seem his hypothesis is accurate.
Onyl ONE woman even hnted that she wouldn't want her husband under CERTAIN circumstances not to take care fo the kids. So you're only reading what you want, and ignoring what doesn't jibe with your already-established world-view.
A lot of women want the "Choice" of being able to work or stay home and raise the family.
True. So do some (I bet not a lot) men--and they all now have it. You seem to imply that men do NOT have that "choice", when they do, they just rarely "choose" it. Usually, when women have the rights, so do the men. It has NOT always, traditionally, been the same in reverse. Welcome to Feminism 1001. You are correct, within one family, only ONE person has that choice, unless the family decides it wants to live off the grid or something.
Especially when it come to Dating, would a Woman be willing to date a Man who is unemployed or makes significantly less than her?
Every woman on this thread has said it's NOT an issue, yet pretty much every subsequent post by men insists it IS an issue. Something ain't right, here.
But would Men be willing to date or marry a women who makes more than him. Would men be willing to be a stay-at-home dad?
Yes. If they wanted to. Which makes it a "CHOICE". See how this goes? It doesn't make them bad because they wanted to stay home with the kids, any more than it makes women bad for wanting the same thing. Your constant underlying message is that women are "bad" for wanting to have a CHOICE to stay home, and you think men don't get that "choice". I and others have given you real-life examples of men who have made this "choice". Yet you still contend that it's ONLY a "choice" for women.
THEN, in comes another poster who blames feminism on the women having the choice--apaprently HE thinks staying at home with the kids is the "better" option over working, and he thinks that women are upset because they "have" to work. But the thing is, NOT EVERYONE LIKES TO BE AT HOME WITH THE KIDS. The OPTION (CHOICE) of doing so is great--the NECESSITY of doing so is not so great. I know a few women who LOVE to work. Weird, huh?
My point is that "Men are expected to work full-time" and that "some women don't want to work full-time or want the Husband to take care of her expenses." Is this right?
No, that is not right, nor is it accurate. Yet you keep saying it, despite every woman on this thread saying it isn't the way she thinks. Plus, you're muddling up two entirely different concepts--men who feel they MUST work, vs. women who WANT the husband to take care of her expenses AND vs. women who don't WANT to work full-time. What someone wants and what someone must do are entirely different things.
if it was at all a very real possibility or choice men were ever faced with making. Because women aren't offering it up, there's not much point in doing any surveys.
This is an interesting way of thinking of it--like, the men have no control. Are women FORCING the men to work so that they (women) can stay home? or are men choosing to work?
If a woman dedicated herself, which is more common now, to life-long full time employment most industries would see equal salaries.
Where do you live that women don't work until retirement? Maybe Colorado is more progressive, so I have a skewed idea of what the rest of the country does? If you REALLY want to get into it, why does society value the work that traditionally men have done over that that women have traditionally done? If you think about it, our most valuable resource is "supposed"to be our children, yet child-care workers and teachers (overwhelmingly female workers) are amongst the lowest-paid workers. It's almost like there's a societal STIGMA about being a woman!! Feminism 2001
A woman I dated once who made a lot of money told me "water seeks it's own level" ...meaning most women want a man who makes as much or more than they do.
That is not what that means. It means "birds of a feather flock together". YOU added the "or more" part--not her. If you look at life, most people--not just women--seek out other people from their own socio-economic background. I don't have anything AGAINST super-rich people, but I REALLY don't have anything in COMMON with most of them, either.
I believe that most Men who worked NEEDED to because they had a wife and kids to support and the Men were expected to be the sole breadwinner.
That's what SHE said, just from the feminine perspective. Just as men NEEDED to work, women weren't ALLOWED to work. See? NOW, because of Feminsim, MEN ALSO get the choice of whether they work or not.
Its not a man or society's fault that prevented women from working.
Uhhhhh, YES, it WAS--not any more, though. Yay, Feminsim!
Being a stay-at-home mom is a Luxury, especially in present day.
I TOTALLY agree. Some people, though, don't look at JUST th ebottom line--not JUST th emonetary aspects. They feel it's worth the lack of income for them to raise their kids on their own. The person working feels it's best AND the person doing the primary child care both have to agree that it's worth it. It's a conscious CHOICE.
Almost unanimously they decry it.
Actually, not ONE on this thread has. And, not one woman on this thread has said she's pissed about ANYTHING. Where'd you pull that from??
I AM finding it amusing that men are thinking sitting at home with the kids isn't work, though. Think about this--if you have a bad day at the office, the worst that can happen is you get fired. If SHE has a bad day at home, the worst that can happens her CHILD DIES. Who has more pressure again?
Just like it's twisted now for women to try and make their reluctance to support men/fathers as really being about their feigned concern for men's egos, it's supposed limitations, etc.
Actually, the OP made this statement, and he's a dood. Not one woman agreed with him.
working kinda sucks. KINDA?! | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:39:17 PM |
The remaining 60-65% of women express a desire for both family and career, in varying proportions, which themselves vary with where they are in both.
So even if the accusation about "this thread assumes all women WANT to be wives and mothers" were true, the assumption would be ~85-90% true, and thus not a bad assumption..
Exactly, it seems that over 50% of women just prefer to either not work or work only part-time and devote time to mothering. This would be great if we were still an agricultural economy, but by not fully participating in the workforce, it changes the salary potential, and career potential of all women in general.
Some companies or industries may be adversely affected if workers leave to become full-time parents. Perhaps that is why many women gravitate careers with more flexibility and varying levels of required education, and not work intensive industries like math and science. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 1:00:27 PM |
True. So do some (I bet not a lot) men--and they all now have it. You seem to imply that men do NOT have that "choice", when they do, they just rarely "choose" it. Usually, when women have the rights, so do the men. It has NOT always, traditionally, been the same in reverse. Welcome to Feminism 1001. You are correct, within one family, only ONE person has that choice, unless the family decides it wants to live off the grid or something.
I believe that duel Full-Time incomes are the standard, but is this equality that we really want? Should we place more importance on Full-Time parenting either by the mother or father. Men may have the "choice not to work" but there is a strong societal pressure to "work full-time" if you need the income. Women will accept a Husband who doesn't work, but she really does want him to work full-time.
Where do you live that women don't work until retirement? Maybe Colorado is more progressive, so I have a skewed idea of what the rest of the country does? If you REALLY want to get into it, why does society value the work that traditionally men have done over that that women have traditionally done?
If you think about it, our most valuable resource is "supposed"to be our children, yet child-care workers and teachers (overwhelmingly female workers) are amongst the lowest-paid workers. It's almost like there's a societal STIGMA about being a woman!! Feminism 2001
If women take time off and extended absences due to pregnancy, it can affect salary increases. Most office white collar jobs pay more. I have no idea why the salaries for day-care is less, but I've also heard from women who choose to stay home because they claim child-care is too expensive.
So is child-care too expensive or do they not get paid enough? Taxes pay for school teachers. But most white collar engineering and finance jobs are paid in the private sector. Most women should work in the private sector if they want to earn higher salaries.
Women were kept out of jobs because of physical limitations. Free market principles dictate that if a woman or man can do the job better, they are hired or build their own businesses. Women left manufacturing jobs because it was better/easier to take care of the children than work in a dangerous factory. Women want Flexible hours so they can devote to parenting, most jobs can't provide that. Economic realities force social changes far quicker than anything else. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 1:05:01 PM | I had a co-worker (female) who had a two year old son. This female co-worker was the nicest "lady".....treated me like family, would bring me treats that she had baked, etc.
Her son was in daycare.
One day, she came to work very upset. She was very embarrassed, but she knew that I wouldn't laugh at her.
Her son had come home from daycare, and told her to f*ck off.....
I don't think she (or her husband) are the ones that taught this child to say that.
What is more important (if it's possible)....ruining "salary potential" or having your children say things that YOU have taught them? | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 1:33:48 PM |
Onyl ONE woman even hnted that she wouldn't want her husband under CERTAIN circumstances not to take care fo the kids. So you're only reading what you want, and ignoring what doesn't jibe with your already-established world-view.
I suppose I do have an already-established world view. I know very few people who don’t.
I see no reason to make the discussion personal, do you CassaGo?
Two different topics are being discussed: 1) is it alright for a man to earn less than a woman, and 2) is it alright for the man to be a stay at home dad?
The first scenario suggest the man is working and earning something. The logical inference of the second scenario being that he would not contribute anything to the relationship financially.
My post #53 pretty clearly referred to scenario #2. To respond to your statement CassaGo, many women on the thread did not comment directly on scenario #2 or give an impression which way they feel. Of the women who did:
Three women indicated that a man should work and earn something, or that they would not want a man to stay home and raise the kids (msg 10, 20 and 42).
Two women indicated that they thought it would be ok if their partner stayed home and earned nothing (msg 38 and 42).
One woman suggested that as long her partner’s ‘lost income’ was equal to the daycare expenses that would be saved, it would be acceptable for him to stay home.
You (CassaGo) did not take a position either way.
In a world where a woman may choose either option (work or stay home w/ children) without stigma, there shouldn’t be any question that a man may stay home, not work, take care of the children and have her pay the bills. But that’s not the case. There is still an evident social expectation that men work. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:27:19 PM |
In a world where a woman may choose either option (work or stay home w/ children) without stigma, there shouldn’t be any question that a man may stay home, not work, take care of the children and have her pay the bills. But that’s not the case. There is still an evident social expectation that men work.
The bold is where you and I part ways. I don't see it as "evident" at all. I agree that MOST families don't do things this way--but as I previously mentioned, three of my male friends are stay-at-home dads full-time while wives work. I don't know of anyone who looks at these men and stigmatizes them, as you seem to think "evidently" happens.
I have not given my opinion either way on "second part" because it doesn't matter--even if I were AGAINST a man staying home to care for his kids, I would be FOR his right to have the OPTION of doing so. I, personally, believe that men DO have --and do exercise-- the option of doing so. I've seen it with my own eyes, and I bet you have, too--yet you argue the opposite? I don't get that.
I agree with you that men are more culturally constrained in certain areas than are women. But if the individual MEN won't fight for what they want, and just go with the status quo, that's all they'll get--the way it is now. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:48:18 PM |
I agree with you that men are more culturally constrained in certain areas than are women. But if the individual MEN won't fight for what they want, and just go with the status quo, that's all they'll get--the way it is now..
There are lots of different jobs out there for Men. Some are blue collar physical work and some are office work.
A more physical man may be inclined and prefer to work in construction, etc. rather than stay at home. Some men may be willing to stay-at-home based on personality, education, previous job.
I think because of physical demands of certain jobs, a woman's choice is limited. But with advanced education and the growing white-collar jobs, a woman can utilize her strengths. But I think a woman is more willing to sacrifice her career to raise a child full-time. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:01:20 PM |
Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Talking about most women, I think not. It seems that women only want a man who is offering more than her as a person. Not only with money but with most or all aspects. Most women today only want to date men who are above them. Many women will deny this as the unfairness is obvious, but the truth speaks for it's self when you look at their actions in dating | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:07:44 PM |
But I think a woman is more willing to sacrifice her career to raise a child full-time.
Me, too.
But I don't blame the MEN for that.
It sounds like men are blaming WOMEN because the men themselves won't make that sacrifice to stay home and take care of the kids.
It's a CHOICE. Increasingly, though, quality of life IS a choice being made by men as well, at the sacrifice of some of their net worth. Which is exactly why I say there IS no "stigma" to a man making less money than his wife, or staying home to care for his children. Most people nowadays recognize that working just to make money can be a stifling existence, and they want more fomr life than JUST work. But guess what? There are still people who WANT to work their fingers to the bone--and that's their CHOICE.
My brother didn't have a "real job" for about 25 years (he did consulting when he felt like it, which wasn't often--he was NOT rich, did NOT have a nice car or house or much of anything). And ALWAYS had girlfriends during this time (long-term--he had two or three over this period in his life; still is with the last one). Because you don't fool me, this is all about the nookie. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:33:30 PM | CassaGo
a couple of things...
first you say it's a choice!!
how is it a choice..? women carry children with them for 9 months, produce nurture in the form of "milk"
damn I would gladly stay home and raise children!
any takers? | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:37:45 PM | Yes, I would date you if you were smart, handsome, well-educated, energetic, not fat, and not fool and had acted like a fine human being who were responsible for everything you wanted. This is not about salary but about if you have an ability to interest me... | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:07:55 PM |
Me, too.
But I don't blame the MEN for that.
It sounds like men are blaming WOMEN because the men themselves won't make that sacrifice to stay home and take care of the kids.
It's a CHOICE. Increasingly, though, quality of life IS a choice being made by men as well, at the sacrifice of some of their net worth. Which is exactly why I say there IS no "stigma" to a man making less money than his wife, or staying home to care for his children. Most people nowadays recognize that working just to make money can be a stifling existence, and they want more fomr life than JUST work. But guess what? There are still people who WANT to work their fingers to the bone--and that's their CHOICE..
I don't really know if it is a choice for a Woman to stay home full-time. Perhaps its just an excuse, but I've heard from several women that Child-care is expensive and it would cost the same if they went back to work and their salary ended up going mostly to child-care. So if a woman was not making north of 40K, then she will probably just become a full-time parent, if the costs are the same.
I guess it depends on career advancement, and which spouse has a better job. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:23:32 PM | we now take you back to our regularly scheduled program
Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Yes, I would.
My last 2 relationships I made more money than the man I was with.
One was on disability and didn't work.....but kept himself busy doing what he was physically able to do w/ hobbies and volunteer work. I even supported this man for about 6 months before his checks kicked in.
The other worked his butt off.....just at a lower rate of pay than myself.
There are plenty of us women out there that are far more concerned about
"who" you are.....and not what you can do for us financially. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:30:01 PM |
I've heard from several women that Child-care is expensive
So is paying for child support. The father of the child has to cough up the money. So it's not really that expensive for the woman as the father of the child is pitching in. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 6:28:15 PM | | Things are different these days with women in the workforce...I have friends who would much prefer the guy to stay home and take care of the kids...granted it's a mutual agreement...I wouldn't have an issue with this arrangement...however, in another case my friend was depended on to be the breadwinner and not out of choice as her husband refused to get a real paying job and contribute...in which case she resented her position for years. At the end of the day...it should be a team effort with no one expecting the other person to assume a specific role but simply expect to share the roles unless one is truly more comfortable with one role then the other which is agreed to by both parties. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 6:40:20 PM | | We female generations in my native country have had successful careers while as wives. A few classmates moved to this country when they were young. They are wives only. Even if I was divorced, I have my career and goals. I can live where I like. I am truly proud of myself not to depend on anybody else but myself. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/22/2009 7:10:56 PM |
damn I would gladly stay home and raise children!
any takers?
Now we're getting down to it.....define "stay home and raise children".
Does this include you taking care of the kids until the moneymaking wife comes home?
Or does it mean "role reversal" like doing laundry, cleaning, cooking....or is that "not your job".
Is the woman expected to earn the money, AND still parent and run the house 16 hours a day?
That would be a pretty sweet deal for the man.....wife comes home from work, and STILL brings him his pipe and slippers......while she makes dinner, does laundry etc. | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/23/2009 3:30:10 AM | "It's not so much of what is in his wallet that counts, it's how a man manages his money and his attitude towards money is what counts "
**********************************************************************************************************************
And conversely, I think the opposite is true ...it's not so much of what is in HER wallet that counts, it's how a WOMAN manages HER money and HER attitude towards money is what counts". | |
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| Would a Woman date a Man if she had a higher salary than him?
Posted: 10/23/2009 4:06:14 AM |
Would a woman date a man if she had a higher salary than him?
It never bothered me... but it has bothered many men in my past. I have always worked in male-dominated fields, and often make more money than a man... it bothered my ex, big time... and has continued to bother most of the men I have dated since.
Is the woman expected to earn the money, AND still parent and run the house 16 hours a day?
That would be a pretty sweet deal for the man.....wife comes home from work, and STILL brings him his pipe and slippers......while she makes dinner, does laundry etc.
Unfortunately, that has been the predominate attitude I have seen in most instances where he is the "stay at home Dad" ... in fact, I have not seen one instance where he does all the laundry, cleaning, cooking, etc. ... and I know several men who do the stay home with the kids thing. | |
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