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 Author Thread: A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
 realsexyrealsmart

Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 228
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:25:21 PM
If what he said was really offensive, especially racial epithets and the like, then YOU have legally been the victim of harassment. Everyone has the right to a workplace free of offensive or hostile behavior. Saying these things where anyone else can hear them is rightly considered harassment. I would talk to him about it (not in front of others) and document the incident. You may need to refer to this documentation later if it becomes a pattern.

I think you should do your best to prevent the situation from repeating itself in whatever way seems reasonable. Ideally, he will change his behavior without a lot of fuss.
 aSydneyMale

Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 229
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:30:37 PM

P.S. If it was a woman talking about a man like that it should've made you smile... :)

Interesting thought. I'm wondering what the OP would do if he had overheard the woman in question having a similar conversation, supposedly private, with a co-worker? She menions she would love to have sex with a particular bloke just to see what it was like to have a white guy f*ck her? She then goes on to say some offensive stuff about caucasians in general.

Would the OP be disgusted and want to fire her on the spot, despite her job proficiency? Would the OP go running to HR and have her written up? Would the OP, as some have suggested on this thread, engage in a campaign of passive-aggression to force her out of the company.

Or would the OP do... nothing?
 raphael_adroit_esquire

Joined: 12/18/2006
Msg: 230
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:46:08 PM

And ? Who are you ? moral police ?
Unless she complains for sexual harassment ~ or they do something going against company policy. It's none of your business.
You can't control people's comments, ideas, thoughts ~ it's a free country. You were not even invited to that conversation.


I kind of agree with this actually. My first thought when reading this was that I was wondering whether this guy actually violated any kind of company policy or if the OP just personally didn't like what he said.

Policy is policy, so if he violated something you should certainly take the appropriate action. That's why it's policy. But I do have to wonder when I see statements like...


From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that


Unless you have a company policy of "no sleeping with co-workers / only meaningful relationships," then this implies a personal agenda here.
 mysticaries

Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 231
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:50:12 PM
You're a manager with the capability of firing someone and you're posting on POF for advice on what to do in this situation? Sheesh. I am really underpaid and under-recognized.
 aSydneyMale

Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 232
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:53:56 PM

Unless you have a company policy of "no sleeping with co-workers / only meaningful relationships," then this implies a personal agenda here.

The 'elephant in the room'. The OP comes on a dating site to crucify an employee over the contents of a private conversation, dressing it up as a simple HR issue, when the real issue here is his personal moral compass.
 realsexyrealsmart

Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 233
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 2:45:01 PM
Could be. OP? Care to explain?
 monalee1

Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 234
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 6:23:12 PM
hi... a written warning will stop him if it was poor judgement or it will unravel him if he is a victimizer... either way you have done your part to protect your ~other ~ employee as well.... blessings
 central_scrutinizer

Joined: 10/11/2009
Msg: 235
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 7:07:47 PM
My gawd, this thread is still alive? Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
 annasthasia

Joined: 5/4/2005
Msg: 236
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 8:43:41 PM
So OP, what DID you do?

Pray tell...
 SmilingSalmon

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 237
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 11:04:18 PM

The other day I overheard a conversation between two of my male employees. A woman who is our technical writer is a very attractive single African American. One of the male employees said that he was trying to get her to date him "just so I know what it's like to f*ck a black chick." From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that, and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general. I wanted to go right in there and fire him on the spot. The problem is, he's very important to us technically, and it would be difficult to quickly replace him.


Oh that is soooooooooooooooooooo easy.
1. I would without hesitation call him to my office.
2. I would tell him to sit down, never sit down myself, and immediately go to the website defining what is sexual harassment, print it out for him and also print out the part that it is a minimum $8000 fine for the business owner if a charge is filed and found to be true, highlight both and make sure he sees that a copy of them go straight to his file that gets laid in the center of your desk.
3. Make a phone call to the nearest or best technical recruiting agency and line up people for his job.
4. Call the payroll department and have them immediately bring his final check including any vacation if owed. If he has a key, take it.
5. Make a sticky note, attached to the front of his file that reads...call attorney.
6. Escort him with a box, lid or bag to his desk to gather anything that is his.
7. Escort him to the door.
8. Get the other guy in to sign a statement of what the guy said, along with a witness that you didn't coerce him to sign it. He will, because he knows he was dangerously close to getting the same thing and will want to cooperate.

No conversatioin, no discussion. End of story.

I have been faced with it and no one is THAT valuable. You condoned his behavior the second you allowed it, walked away and felt he was more valuable than basic human rights. If I were your boss and found you let this slip by, you would be getting the same.

SS
 aSydneyMale

Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 238
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 11:47:39 PM

No conversatioin, no discussion. End of story.

What would your position be if it had in fact been the female technical writer talking with a friend and saying she would like to bonk a white man to see what it was like and making racial comments?

Would you do exactly the same thing?
 SmilingSalmon

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 239
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 11:59:25 PM
^^^Damn right I would.^^^ Human rights are human rights and I do not tolerate that assinine behavior in anyone.

No conversatioin, no discussion. End of story.

My actions would be fully backed and protected by law. My lack of reacting in that manor would hold me as guilty as they.

To be honest with you, my first firing over sexual harassment was a woman. She called another woman a b*tch and that word is a clear cut sexual harassment violator, no matter who says it against who. We almost had to pay the $8000, but the person asked the court to drop the case against the employer, due to my swift and caring action.

SS
 aSydneyMale

Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 240
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 12:04:40 AM

To be honest with you, my first firing over sexual harassment was a woman.

SS

Well I admire your consistency, although I wouldn't have been so heavy-handed, my view is a warning and permanent record entry would have sufficed.
 NiceGuyGoneRogue

Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 241
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 2:59:36 AM
Ok, lets assume that these two are friends, if they were having what they thought was a private conversation about dating.


I would tell him to sit down, never sit down myself, and immediately go to the website defining what is sexual harassment, print it out for him and also print out the part that it is a minimum $8000 fine for the business owner if a charge is filed and found to be true, highlight both and make sure he sees that a copy of them go straight to his file that gets laid in the center of your desk.

he could simply say: "Mrs. SmilingSamon, I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about."


Escort him to the door. Get the other guy in to sign a statement of what the guy said, along with a witness that you didn't coerce him to sign it. He will, because he knows he was dangerously close to getting the same thing and will want to cooperate.

other guy: "Mrs. SmilingSamon, I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about."

Should one or the other be fired, a civil court would likely have word with you, as no actually sexual harassment of the female employer took place. There is direct proof by your action though, that a direct discriminatory action (without substantial proof) was taken by you as the employer. Remember, justice is blind, so if you as an employer can come up with valid reasons for essentially canning someone for having what they thought was a private conversation, they can sue you personally for tarnishing their work record for no good reason, ESPECIALLY since there was no actual harassment that took place, and you couldn't be held accountable for knowing of any as long as you ignored the intended private conversation in the first place, and waited for an actual *complaint*.
 Binroe the Heretic

Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 242
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 7:13:19 AM

(mysticaries) You're a manager with the capability of firing someone and you're posting on POF for advice on what to do in this situation? Sheesh. I am really underpaid and under-recognized.




Binroe...
 CheshireCatalyst

Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 243
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 9:43:21 AM

To be honest with you, my first firing over sexual harassment was a woman. She called another woman a b*tch and that word is a clear cut sexual harassment violator, no matter who says it against who...


Smiling Salmon, as a case of "sexual" harassment, this surprises me. Since "****" is now a colloquial term that is basically used against anyone you might disagree with (not that it's acceptable) how did this become sexual? I wasn't sure so I checked the University of Toronto's definition:

"Sexual Harassment is unwanted sexual attention or unwanted emphasis on your sex or sexual orientation. It includes any unwelcome pressure for sexual favors, any comments, gestures or other conduct which places an offensive focus on the sex or sexual orientation of another person, and any gender-based conduct that is directed at you and that creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working or learning environment for you. Sexual harassment is often confused with sexual assault. Sexual harassment is any unwanted comment, gesture or contact of a sexual nature."

It does seem that, as a possible sexual offense, a judge might not agree with your company if it came down to a civil dispute, which is what seems to have happened. Why were you almost on the hook for $8,000? What did that money represent?

Genuinely curious.........
 Mtn.lover

Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 244
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 9:46:23 AM
I can't remember the title, but there was a movie awhile back...I think starring Tom Cruise, where people were being prosicuted for criminal thoughts in order to prevent the actual crime. At the time, I thought it was so left wing radical and ridiculous, that I couldn't finish watching it. Reading many of the post here, lead me to believe that it isn't as far fetched as I thought. Maybe when all you human rights activist get finished legislating away all the humanity in humans, you might discover that what you sought to protect....you actually distroyed.
 CheshireCatalyst

Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 245
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 9:47:41 AM
^^It was called Minority Report.

It was actually science fiction and not "left wing radical."

While it was a great model for an oppressed, dystopian future society, it was meant to be "entertainment" rather than a realistic model.
 Mtn.lover

Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 246
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 10:49:40 AM
Cheshirecatalyst, while you are sifting through and correcting insignificant details in my post.....did the point I was trying to make fly over your pretty little head?
 CheshireCatalyst

Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 247
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 11:13:17 AM
At the risk of derailing this thread ^^you ^^ are demeaning and derogatory - "pretty little head" eh? You couldn't even finish the movie and you'd like to take issue with me......that's rich......

I hope your post remains here as a testament to how you deal with women who disagree with you.
 colt8301

Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 248
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 11:23:53 AM
The other day I overheard a conversation between two of my male employees. A woman who is our technical writer is a very attractive single African American. One of the male employees said that he was trying to get her to date him "just so I know what it's like to f*ck a black chick." From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that, and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general. I wanted to go right in there and fire him on the spot. The problem is, he's very important to us technically, and it would be difficult to quickly replace him. (I'm going to look into that anyway, and that's not my question. I'm not interested nor expecting in any advice on that.)

My question is, other than immediate termination, how would you handle this situation?



well it's a tough decision for me as well as it would be you, the screw a black chick line isn't bad except it was inappropriate for the "workplace", I mean if she heard that it's a law suit, I don't know the other racial stuff he said but if this stuff was to reach back to her and she found out me the "manager" did nothing it's like losing 2 employees, I'd atleast have a talk with the guy,
Personally don't care if someone is racist or not it affects them more than me, but if it disrupts the workplace that's when it's a problem.
 SmilingSalmon

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 249
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 5:22:38 PM
Cheshire,
Here is an interesting article on what you are talking about. I am not saying I totally agree with it, interesting all the same.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/16/AR2007111601202.html

Anything that feels threatening, insulting, demeaning, or retalliatory is considered sexual harassment. Gender or sexual orientation does not play into it. To call someone a **** is to harass her gender. All of the url's I have posted state the law and or address the law. As I said above, according to the law, if any form of sexual harassment is filed at any workplace and it is found to be true, then the business owner is held responsible for allowing an atmosphere that it could happen in. There is a fine levied. The fine can be dropped if the victim asks for it to be based on feeling the employer handled the problem well. It is that simple.
http://www.equalrights.org/publications/kyr/shwork.asp

Also check out here
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:p9BNe0kBMBwJ:www.uwgb.edu/hr/Training/SexualEthicsInTheWorkplace.ppt+Equal+Rights+defined+words+considered+sexual+harassment+in+the+workplace&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://humanresources.about.com/od/glossarys/a/sexualharassdef.htm

The Role of Managers in Harassment Prevention and Investigation
Managers and supervisors are the front line when it comes to managing employee performance and needs from work. First, and most importantly, you do not want a workplace culture that allows any form of harassment to occur. Out of your commitment to your employees and your company, harassment, in any form, is never to be tolerated.
In harassment, as well as in other law suit-engaging topics, as an employer, demonstrating that you took appropriate steps is crucial. In fact, demonstrating that you took immediate action and that the consequences for the perpetrator were severe, is also critical. And, the front line leader is usually the person initiating and following through on those steps, so they have to feel confident about what they are doing. Any form of harassment can create a hostile work environment including sexual harassment and how it is addressed. The court's definition of what constitutes a hostile work environment has recently expanded to coworkers who are caught up in the situation, too.

As you think about sexual harassment and other forms of harassment in your work place, keep these facts in mind.


The employee harassing another employee can be an individual of the same sex. Sexual harassment does not imply that the perpetrator is of the opposite sex.

The harasser can be the employee's supervisor, manager, customer, coworker, supplier, peer, or vendor. Any individual who is connected to the employee's work environment, can be accused of sexual harassment.

The victim of sexual harassment is not just the employee who is the target of the harassment. Other employees who observe or learn about the sexual harassment can also be the victims and institute charges. Anyone who is affected by the conduct can potentially complain of sexual harassment. As an example, if a supervisor is engaged in a sexual relationship with a reporting staff member, other staff can claim harassment if they believe the supervisor treated his or her lover differently than they were treated.

In the organization's sexual harassment policy, advise the potential victims that, if they experience harassment, they should tell the perpetrator to stop, that the advances or other unwanted behaviors are unwelcome.

Sexual harassment can occur even when the complainant cannot demonstrate any adverse affect on his or her employment including transfers, discharge, salary decreases, and so on.

When an individual experiences sexual harassment, they should use the complaint system and recommended procedures as spelled out in the sexual harassment policy of their employer. The investigation should be conducted as spelled out in the handbook.

The employer has the responsibility to take each complaint of sexual harassment seriously and investigate. The investigation should follow these steps listed in How to Address Sexual Harassment Charges.
Following the investigation of the harassment complaint, no retaliation is permitted, regardless of the outcome of the investigation. The employer must, in no way, treat the employee who filed the complaint differently than other employees are treated nor change his or her prior-to-the-complaint treatment. If it is determined that the employee lied, disciplinary action is necessary, however.


Here is a current sexual harassment case in the courts, concerning the word b*tch and one to follow. It hasn't been decided yet.
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/laborprof_blog/2009/06/11th-circuit-orders-rehearing-in-sexual-harassment-case.html

I was in California for all of the three cases I was involved in in the early 2000's of sexual harassment. Things have calmed down only a little since then. At the time I was involved the laws were fairly new and judges were harsh, on employers and on the offenders. Now there have been enough cases prosecuted and won for the victims that cases can be looked at from a slightly broader view. The laws were written and instituted originally in California, so it was a hotbed of scrutiny. Here is another website stating loosely about the use of the word b*tch I can tell you that in a court situation, there is nothing lose about it. The use of the word is taken seriously and seen for what it is...gender bias, abuse and discrimination, even when being delivered from a female to a female.
http://www.californialaborlawattorney.com/newsletter.php?id=751

SS
 CheshireCatalyst

Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 250
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 6:39:04 PM
Thanks SS, I still wasn't completely clear on the female vs female version, especially since it appeared that the women in your first example were not seeing each other in a sexual fashion. Once I read the last couple of links I see that in California it applies because a woman will experience "b!tch" as a term that impacts women negatively but NOT men. Thus, disparate impact.


Thanks for posting........
 SmilingSalmon

Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 251
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 6:54:51 PM
Exactly, Cheshire. Disparate impact seems to be the key to judging these cases, which is a bit different than in the beginning when it was judged more on a personal impact.

SS
 central_scrutinizer

Joined: 10/11/2009
Msg: 252
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 8:05:06 PM

So OP, what DID you do?Pray tell..

I water-boarded him. What else?
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