| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:59:02 AM |
The other day I overheard a conversation between two of my male employees. A woman who is our technical writer is a very attractive single African American. One of the male employees said that he was trying to get her to date him "just so I know what it's like to f*ck a black chick." From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that, and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general. I wanted to go right in there and fire him on the spot...My question is, other than immediate termination, how would you handle this situation?
1. I'd start a file on this guy immediately, noting all of his legitimate professional digressions. If this technical writer's statement wasn't said to her or at the worksite, it's not a legitimate digression.
2. Once you have enough of a file on this guy, post his position. Tell the department that you are seeking to expand the staff.
3. Once you hire a new employee, get the bad employee to begin to train the new employee.
4. Once the new employee is adequately trained, terminate employment on the jerk. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:12:18 PM | I had a run in with a policeman a few years back. With little to no money at the time, he pulled me over for having a brake light out and I was pretty snarly about the whole thing, figuring (correctly) that he was prosecuting me for being poor.
Be that as it may (I agree, brake lights are important ... just let me tell the tale) he then gave me the ticket and started to tell me I should have a better attitude.
I said, "my attitude is perfectly legal, thank you very much."
Op: As someone who thinks liberals are too conservative (to put it one way) I would have been personally as offended as you appear to be had I overhearing the same remarks. But I agree with the thread above that implied you are not the morality police. If these same things were said at an official company function -- a meeting or a conversation with a customer while representing the company, etc., -- or disrupted work in any form I would follow the personnel handbook and do a number on his idiotic butt. But, as far as overhearing this casual conversation not intended for yourself, I agree: Hands off.
Best out, I would think would be to tell him in so many words that you would consider that comment a disruption of work at best and sexual harassment at worst. From a personal point of view, I would take the slightest hint that crossed the line and take it as far as you could. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:31:28 PM | If I felt comfortable enough talking to her about such things, I would warn her of his intentions. I would get him written up for sexual harassment and find a way to get him to have to attend a course/class on the subject to put a stop to his crassness. And make a huge example of him to other employees that that sort of behavior will NOT be tolerated in your place of business.
That's just me though. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 2:26:07 PM | OP, the guy who blurred out racial remark is a human too. You should consider him and his family as well. What if he really get fired because of his offensive racial comments? Do you think you make a better human being? I'd guess you just produced a hard core skin head.
What about his family? I guess his family wouldn't think kind of the minority either.
The part racial conflict is a result of intolerance. Are we so tolerant that we're going to lynch people who are racial ignorant now?
Hatred breeds hatred. Education makes educated people.
OP, if you really care about minority unlike so many self righteous people here, who want to polarize the racial relationship, you should educate this employee.
Of course, as an owner you should protect your business. A mandatory work place harassment course is in order for all your employee.
Remember, every individual is a human regardless his color and belief. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 2:30:52 PM | | this is very strange. is it your business what your employees says to each other about their private life in a private conversation? or any kind of relationship between employees is prohibited at your place | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:10:52 PM | Being a racist is completely reprehensible, no doubt. However, does having racist thoughts, or saying something that you overheard and that was not directed at you, something a person should be fired over? I'd say no. Sure, you can fire someone just because you don't like the way he looks or thinks, if you live in an employ at will state. But if you fire everyone who doesn't agree with you, will you have any employees left?
If it were me, I imagine I would speak to him briefly and privately, and express that while his business is his own, he should keep such opinions to himself in the workplace. Also, discuss with him how any conversations he has that might cause problems at work, especially when it comes to potential matters of sexual harassment or just dating coworkers (a bad idea in my book) are plain bad business, and fall within your area of concern. It won't change his attitudes, but it might change his thinking on approaching this particular woman, and who knows, maybe he gets tweaked enough to start looking for another gig, and the problem solves itself. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:41:23 PM |
Unless he propositioned her and she was offended - then no harrasment. Writing him up on his permanent record for this would expose you to a lawsuit when you fire him.
Not true. Talking about sex with co-workers is a big no-no in the realm of sexual harassment.
You said yourself it was after hours - not work related
But said at work, about a co-worker. If you go into your work, after hours, while both of you are off the clock, and you proposition a co-worker – it's still falls under sexual harassment.
You now have libel for even posting this
Since he didn't post the person's name, or his business, it's not libel.
As the employer, you are not allowed to breach or tread into his personal life, unless it affects is work capacity or ethic.
Maybe, but the employee did the breaching here by opening his mouth, at work, and letting those particular words come out. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/22/2009 8:06:15 PM | I would take him aside and let him know that you were within ear reach of the conversation and give him a warning about how it can be construed as sexual harassment and the repercussions for both he and the company. If you ever hear it again, write him up.  | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:27:48 AM | Immediate Termination IS the best thing to do. He will cost the company more $ in the long run in law suites.
You can hire a replacement in the mean time. Come up with the excuse that there are getting ready to make some big changes and will need the extra help. In fact, it's the truth in a loop hole. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:38:08 AM | The other day I overheard a conversation between two of my male employees. A woman who is our technical writer is a very attractive single African American. One of the male employees said that he was trying to get her to date him "just so I know what it's like to f*ck a black chick." From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that, and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general. I wanted to go right in there and fire him on the spot. The problem is, he's very important to us technically, and it would be difficult to quickly replace him. (I'm going to look into that anyway, and that's not my question. I'm not interested nor expecting in any advice on that.)
My question is, other than immediate termination, how would you handle this situation?
The thing is: odds are he's not the only butthead you have working for you. He's just the one you overheard. I doubt you want to get into serious surveillance and actually police the sexual thoughts, talk and behavior of your employees. What you can do is take seriously any complaints the very attractive single African American makes about any behavior he directs at her. And any similar behavior by anyone. Nasty talk is common among men; if you make a habit of listening to it and drawing conclusions from it and taking action, you'll be off in the swamp.
However, one of the things women in the workplace complain about is the atmosphere, of being looked at and treated as sexual objects. And it is incidents such as this one that make up that atmosphere. I'd call him in and make an issue of it and at least give him a strong warning. Whether you overheard or not, he certainly communicated his contempt to the man he was talking to. When he did that he was engaged in racist sexist behavior. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:28:46 PM | [q] The only other possible way to handle it is to force him to do her work so she can sit at a desk and play Solitaire all day. [/q]
Genius suggestion. I like it! | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:35:52 PM | yarimelma, man, you have no clue. either you're a douchebag, or have never been a manager or owner of a business. this situation can have serious implications for the OP.
so, before you go mouthing off, read up on sexual harassment, or better yet stfu.
thanks. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:57:18 PM | write his ass up for sexual harassment
He didn't actually sexually harass anyone. And being a racist isn't in and of itself a crime. However, treating your coworkers disrespectfully should not be tolerated by any employer.
Listen, I worked construction for 13 years and guys, when there's no women around, can be pretty crude. You can't take everything they say seriously. I'm not making excuses for him, or saying he isn't being a jerk, but he has not done anything to harass an employee. What he *has* done is to express some very disrespectful sentiments about a fellow employee.
If it were me, ideally what I'd like to do is take him aside and say to him, privately, "Listen, I overheard you talking about __X__ in a manner that I consider very disrespectful. I expect everyone here to conduct themselves professionally and to treat each other with respect. You don't have to like you coworkers but you must treat them respectfully. I trust that I can count on you to do that."
And then I'd leave it at that. I'd keep an eye out for inappropriate behavior. I might go to the woman involved and casually ask her, "How's it going? Everything okay?" I wouldn't want to plant it that there's a problem because it's quite possible that he's never treated her weird. However, I'd watch the situation. I might talk to a lawyer just to get a sense of what's okay, what's not okay, where the boundaries are, how to conduct yourself.
Does your business have a written policy on professional conduct? You might want to think about that.
Dating on the job is a really bad idea. It really opens up lots of problematic possibilities. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:21:14 PM | And ? Who are you ? moral police ?
Unless she complains for sexual harassment ~ or they do something going against company policy. It's none of your business.
You can't control people's comments, ideas, thoughts ~ it's a free country. You were not even invited to that conversation.
I say shut the f up... and mind your own business
I agree somewhat. If you didn't like what the bloke said, mention it to him, but to want to fire him? This is a bloke's livelihood, right?
How's his JOB performance? If it sucks consistantly and HR has followed due process, then fire him.
You cannot fire somebody because you're unhappy with their moral compass.
1. I'd start a file on this guy immediately, noting all of his legitimate professional digressions. If this technical writer's statement wasn't said to her or at the worksite, it's not a legitimate digression.
2. Once you have enough of a file on this guy, post his position. Tell the department that you are seeking to expand the staff.
3. Once you hire a new employee, get the bad employee to begin to train the new employee.
4. Once the new employee is adequately trained, terminate employment on the jerk.
That is just Machievellian beyond belief. How dare you? Start a file on the bloke and deliberately engineer his termination even though you know he has not committed a work-related offence? Who are you, Dwight Schrute??
Clarification:
1. It was after normal working hours. They were in a cubicle talking. I was in a nearby cubicle and they didn't know I was there.
So, two people, having what they thought was a private conversation out of hours, were overheard by their boss who's first instinct after eaves-dropping on a private, non work-related conversation, was to fire one of them. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:40:20 PM | | what this employee did isn't right however I think Yarimelma has a point. No one complained so I really don't think allot should be done. I am not sure how big of a company this is but if it is at all possible I would bring it up at a staff meeting. Don't mention any names but say something that touches on the subject. Say you have heard some inappropriate discussions and remind your employees of the consequences and go from there. This way all your employees will get the message as I bet if you had microphones throughout the building you would hear allot more from allot of other guys. This will also let people know that if they have a problem they can talk to you or if thats not the case tell them who they can take their concerns to. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:49:03 PM | The best companies cherish and take care of their employees as family!!! Now if you over heard someone talking like that about your daughters what would you do!!!???? With the amount of kids coming out of university with technical degrees how hard do you think it will be to find someone better then that cat!!! If your company has a zero tolerance law in place (AND IT SHOULD!) you as the boss witnessed first hand sexual and racial abuse in your work place from an employee (and you fully admitted that in a highly public forum that can be used against you in court) ... You need to get rid of him!! But do it right!!! Get statements from the guy he was talking to, also find out from her if their has been any action on his part... Also give her a heads up on whats going on!!!! It can save your ass!!!!!  | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:02:17 PM | You cannot fire somebody because you're unhappy with their moral compass.
Exactly!
what this employee did isn't right however I think Yarimelma has a point. No one complained so I really don't think allot should be done.
Exactly!
yarimelma, man, you have no clue. either you're a douchebag, or have never been a manager or owner of a business.
Actually currently I am managing a small group of accountants. I have 3 female, 4 males (+ myself) in my department. Even tough I don't "own" the business (We gross over 200M/ a year) I am responsible from my team and their actions.
It takes a leader to control the team, not a follower. Leaders sometimes have to deal with the situation differently to get the job done. Losing your cool, acting like an idiot just because you heard someone talk....Well, that's not how you lead.
Op clearly stated that they need this person at this point in time. And that's what it matters.
You write him up, create unnecessary drama between teammates, and it affects their performance. And when you can't get the job done on time (or do a sloppy job) - You think people upstairs will listen to your excuses ?
-Oh I heard him say *whatever* , so I had to deal with it... Well, do that and see how it turns out for you. Remember nobody knows anything, you just heard him say "something" after work hours... There are no complains or any complications. It's your job to keep everything under control and balanced.
Laws are laws. Using them at the right time and at the right place is what it takes.
So thank you for calling me a douchebag.... shows what kind of an idiot you're....  And this lesson on MNGT 101 was free. Next time I'll charge you, so you know... | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 11:00:14 PM | | I agree with scott - nobody is indispensible. Dispense with this person right away. No room for this behaviour in a progressive, professional company. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/23/2009 11:46:00 PM | i am extremely disgusted because of the words this black chick. and im just disgusted at the overall view that black women are easy! its not true. black women are educated, attractive and intelligent. i am so tired of people thinking all black people are alike. i dont think all white women are alike. when i heard a black male say that all white women are submissive, i totally disagreed with him. there are some dominant white women that get in the man's ass worse than a woman. i am tired of this racial stereotypes!
if i were you i'd pull him to the side and let him know that i heard his comment and advise him to keep his comments to himself in the work environment. give him a warning, if he doesnt listen then you may have to get rid of the "liability" to your company. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:11:28 AM |
i am extremely disgusted because of the words this black chick
Don't be. It's not about black/white. You think he doesn't talk that way about white or asian women ? come on now...
***hole is an ***hole... but then again it's nobody's business unless he's creating problems. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:43:57 AM | Being someone that is in a position of authority in your company is not always an easy spot to be in.
I see your dilema, hower disagree with your logic. EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE! What would you do if he quit tomorrow? You would find someone qualified to replace him. That is exactley what you should do now. Behavior like that not only is disgusting and unacceptable, but could be highly damaging to your company should it come out in the open. At least two others (you and the person to which he was speaking) know of the situation, and if he is able to enact this disgusting plan, then it is likely that others will know as well. The after effects of a situation like this (not even mentioning the legal ramifications if it was to come out that you knew about the situation) could be catastrophic to your company.
Do yourself, the company, and the world a favor. Terminate him immidiately!
I can think of a quote that fits this situation to a "T".................................
"All that is neccesary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" -Edmund Burke
If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Make the right choice, and do the right thing.......for you, the company, and this young lady. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:46:10 AM |
(and you fully admitted that in a highly public forum that can be used against you in court) ...
I doubt this would fly in court because it didn't give any names. He simply asked for some advice and how he should deal with it.
i am extremely disgusted because of the words this black chick.
I could imagine kow that makes you feel however I don't think he meant this in a racial manner. Her skin is black he said a black chick. If that is offfensive I think maybe you are ashamed to be black. Ya it doesn't sound very good but really it's kind of the truth isn't it. He never said black chicks were easy like your post did he simply stated he would like to experiance sex with a black chich. And he didn't state african american chick. Yay. See everything gets turned into racial when it isn't. If someone called me a white stud. I wouldn't be offended why because I'm proud of my haritage. I would take it as a compliment as I would here the word stud and think she meant I was atractive. I see skin coulor as an attribute. I'm pollish and well fairly hary I have had woman say they didn't necessarily like it well that's there choice I don't say there racist cause they don't like hairy guys. I look at it as it is there loss because I truely do have a grat personality. And besides there are mny other woman out there who like hairy guys, even if they don't allot will look past it so I will simply move on and find someone else. I don't think this was a rasist thing as much as sexual abuse. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:54:04 AM | | i am proud to be black. i am tired of all this race stuff! from the stereotypes to the pulling the race card. its all stupid to me. i didnt say the poster said that. i was saying in general SOME people think like that! and you and i know they do. i dont care what color you are and i am proud to be black! i dont have all those issues. so dont say im turning this into a race thing. i was stating some of the things i have encountered on pof in general! 2 encounters to be exact | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/24/2009 1:13:47 AM | I am not tryung to get on your case. I have no problems with other nationalities.
i was saying in general SOME people think like that! and you and i know they do
you are absolutely right but I have also seen alot of natives who turn a non racial comment into a racist one just to cause problems. Alot of people have issues but it doesn't relate to race some people just like causing trouble and they will use what ever they can against you. Obviously many of these people beleive being black is a bad thing but as long as you are proud of who you are it shouldn't bother you. They were just verbally attacking you. See which whould you prefer black chick or slut see these guys just disrespect people and if this lady was white he would be talking about some slut that he wants to sleep with. So in a way she could count her bessings. | |
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