| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/30/2009 3:17:53 PM | | asydneymale...I don't suffer fools very well...so My solution to the racist stands.....racists are beneath contempt...not anything done to avoid the creeps... Perhaps if you are on 'his' side I could understand why you wouldn't want him dealt with as suggested... if that were the case I'd have to shut you out of any and everything also... | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/30/2009 3:33:11 PM |
asydneymale...I don't suffer fools very well...so My solution to the racist stands.....racists are beneath contempt...not anything done to avoid the creeps... Perhaps if you are on 'his' side I could understand why you wouldn't want him dealt with as suggested... if that were the case I'd have to shut you out of any and everything also... Asyndneymale wasn't taking sides, he was commenting on a very valid point. Your suggestion of workplace discrimination and bullying tactics is not only immoral, but illegal as well as you are now infringing on the rights of the person that has originally made the statements.
Terminate his employment, that's legal and acceptable... but to stoop to tactics that force him to quit his job... that's harassment and discrimination and is a litigatable offence. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/30/2009 4:29:44 PM |
Perhaps if you are on 'his' side I could understand why you wouldn't want him dealt with as suggested...
I'm not 'on his side' for allegedly making a racist remark (we only have the eaves-dropping boss' word on this), I'm on the side of the reasonable handling of an HR matter. Your suggestion was mean-spirited and vicious and not a solution at all.
if that were the case I'd have to shut you out of any and everything also...
That would say more about you than it did about me.
Perhaps if you are on 'his' side I could understand why you wouldn't want him dealt with as suggested...
I am pretty offended at your assumption here, because I object to your 'solution' to the problem, I must of course be a racist as well?? Do you not see how offensive this is?
You say you don't suffer fools gladly, I suggest you do a little self-examination.
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/30/2009 5:28:31 PM | A write up, and a good talking to.
Just maybe your company could benefit from a company meeting with a movie so that people would understand the serious ness of sexual harrassment and what it is in the work place. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/30/2009 6:21:30 PM |
The other day I overheard a conversation between two of my male employees. A woman who is our technical writer is a very attractive single African American. One of the male employees said that he was trying to get her to date him "just so I know what it's like to f*ck a black chick." From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that, and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general. I wanted to go right in there and fire him on the spot. The problem is, he's very important to us technically, and it would be difficult to quickly replace him. (I'm going to look into that anyway, and that's not my question. I'm not interested nor expecting in any advice on that.)
Ethically, if you are the boss and you overheard the conversation, you may need to mention that you heard the conversation and that it was an inappropriate comment, and to take it as a warning that in the work place it shouldn't be repeated as it could be taken as either a racist remark or sexual harrassement.
If you do nothing you are sending the message that it is okay to make inappropriate racist or sexual comments. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 6:55:51 AM | You misunderstand. The person that was made to feel uncomfortable was the owner of the company.
OK, so now the owner is a victim...Sorry, but I just can't see how something like this could make someone uncomfortable. I would just have an oponion about that guy, not a good one, would have told him what he said wasn't appropriate, and to not saying it again. Keep saying negative environment for work for someone..To whom?
If you mean that women, again, she didn't hear it, right? So, if the boss tell her, than it will cause negative environment for her, becasue now she knows.
Not that she doesn't know, I mean come on, I bet she knows what guys thinking behind her back..
Contact your HR department for verification...
Don't think we got one of those..Lucky for me I don't work in an uptight place..
We joke to eachother, I bet I could have a case for harassment, or something, when they make fun of my accent, or when I make fun of their nationality, etc.
I know, not excatly the same thing, as saying I want to have sex with someone, but work with me here...
I am sticking with my point. It was just two guys talking sh1t.
Happens all the time.
I am out.
PS.Lint Spotter your wink caused a negative enviroment for me on the forums.
Not really, but come on people lighten up...
And we still don't know how the situation was handled.. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 7:28:25 AM | I wonder what would have been the "Bosses" reaction if that were his daughter...I wonder if he would be as conflicted or wussyfied?
and here's the race card...I wonder how the Boss would have reacted if the guys were two black guys wondering what it would be like messing with a white girl?... | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 7:30:18 AM |
(Lint Spotter) Simply because the comments weren't directed at him, and the conversation didn't include him, does not discount that it was sexual harassment in that it caused a negative environment for work for someone.
I don't just think this, it's a fact...
Yes; and, it also requires some humourless little Nabob to go running to HR making whiny-sucky noises about "sexual harassment".
Gawd, what is wrong with people these days?
Bimbly | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 7:34:39 AM |
(keeping hope alive) asydneymale...I don't suffer fools very well...so My solution to the racist stands.....racists are beneath contempt...
Wow! What a cowardly way to try and seize the moral high-ground!
The guy said he'd like to phuck a "black chick" to "see what it was like"; and, all of a sudden, he's a cross-burning member of the KKK?
Please keep a sense of proportion about this...
Bimbly | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 7:52:09 AM |
Gawd, what is wrong with people these days?
I KNOW, RIGHT?...OK, I am too old to say that, but whatever.
At my workplace innocent sexual harassment is an everyday thing..LOL
I asked the secretary once if she is allowed to wear a blouse like that..
She didn't got hurt..Hm...
Once a female office worker said to me- Don't make me spank you.
Guess I should have gone to my HR department to complain...
I might be way off with theses examples, since there was no sex talk included, I realize that, but still.
You know what a the better discussion would be? The guy said he wants to have sex with her because she is black, and he wants to see what is that like?
How old is this guy anyway? This comment alone tell me, he might be a great tech, hard to replace, etc, but I think he is a dumba$$... | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 12:33:19 PM | I re-read the OP, just for the heck of it, and I re-read this:
... and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general.
This is what should be the offensive thing, not that he expressed a carnal interest in this girl.
Bimbly | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 12:35:47 PM | Geez OP... Seriously... Wait... it explains it... you are from Indianapolis, Indiana.
So, tell me, how many of those guys did you hire off of the slow short bus?
I mean, have you not noticed, the whole world it seems is in a ressession. I am sure that there are bright young open minded minds, (hell, even a multi racial human being with good values), has more talent and "savoir - faire" than the dude who seems to have come from a place where there is inbreeding in the village.
Your inaction is very telling. By doing nothing, means you agree with him and you are permitting this type of infested thinking in your business.
Don't forget, this woman is someone's daughter, sister, aunt etc... She should be entitled to the same level of respect as any red neck jerk in your company.
I sort of hope that you have daughters and that a redneck jerk says really offensive things about her to other men. I hope some of your man friends hears the conversation and says nothing to you until it is too late.
I know... it sounds mean...
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Remember this sir, the only people that are irreplaceable are those found in cemetaries.
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I have been a senior manager of a staff of over 100 employees. If I had heard one of them talk like that, I would have made my presence known and I would have taken them to my office and addressed the issue then and there and I would have told them that I would keep a record of this conversation along with the people that are present and have them initial a short statement that what I heard was the TRUTH.
I had a similar situation and I did just that. The dude became very aggressive and I said in a very calm voice. "Well, remember, when I do your performance review, I can chose to either forget this conversation, or remember it. Your behaviour, from now on, will dictate my evaluation. Go ahead hate me, but I want you to know that if someone badmouthed you the way you did, I would have that person in here and give them the same treatment. "
He was still pissed, but strangely, the word got around... Yea, like I knew it would and all of a sudden, people came out of the woodwork and this ***hole's problem was much deeper than what I had heard. He was the cause of many issues with women and oddly enough, the sick days from my female staff diminished and oddly enough, this snake of a man asked for a transfer and he had to come to me for a recommendation.
It was interesting to see him squirm and then I had to think real hard about my recommendation because I knew he was looking for a place where he could keep being the ignorant jerk that he was... I struggled with that a lot...
Tell the truth and get stuck with him or give him a good recommendation without warning and get rid of him...
Guess what I did OP...
I mean... if you are still reading this thread...
Geez... GROW A PAIR!!! | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 2:00:00 PM | | Well you should have had a policy in place stating that no relationships other that company business will be tolerated and will be grounds for immediate termination. You need to have a brief conversation with the women and let her know...in a tactful way...should one of my employees approach you for any social activity i do not look favorable upon it and i strongly urge you to not pursue it...the last thing you need is a harrassment suit with your company... | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 10/31/2009 2:33:22 PM |
Well you should have had a policy in place stating that no relationships other that company business will be tolerated and will be grounds for immediate termination.
So, you would dictate what your employees do outside of the workplace? If two employees decided to date and form a relationship (as distinct from a manager/subordinate situation) then you would fire them both? They may have met at the workplace, but you would dictate to them what they can do in their PRIVATE LIVES. I would tell anybody to go to hell if they tried that crap with me.
You need to have a brief conversation with the women and let her know...in a tactful way...should one of my employees approach you for any social activity i do not look favorable upon it and i strongly urge you to not pursue it...
Because a woman is not capable of deciding what course of action is best for her with you offering some 'fatherly' advice or even making a veiled-threat.
the last thing you need is a harrassment suit with your company...
Where I come from YOU would be on the receiving end of the suit for wrongful dismissal.
I'm not referring to the specific example which initiated this thread, I'm talking about the management-style of Thaddal, you cannot dictate to your employees what they do in their private lives, if they choose to date each other, if they're married and they are having an affair, if they go to strip clubs it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS unless they bring it onto the shop floor. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:15:52 AM | It's a rat maze and none of the paths are without booby-traps. So although I can't tell you what I would do -- I can tell you what I've seen done, more times than I care to think about, when a behavior presents itself that is intolerable to management but the H/R policies can't quite touch it.
The person in question is never "fired" but is instead amicably terminated for lack of work, lack of funds, any other reason than the real one. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:29:24 AM | Yes; and, it also requires some humourless little Nabob to go running to HR making whiny-sucky noises about "sexual harassment".
Gawd, what is wrong with people these days? What is wrong is that people want freedom from oppression and the right to not have to listen to disparaging remarks about another person or themselves while in their place of employment. You want to talk trash, do it outside of work where the person can walk away and not have to be there to earn a living.
From a completely personal point of view, I worked at a job where I would have male customers come in and make me feel less of a person for the simple reason that I am a woman. I put up with this for quite some time, then in my early twenties, a man actually felt like he had the right to tell me to suck his dyck. Should I have to continue to work with this man? Seriously?
No... and you're damned right I filed a formal complaint against him with the workplace. I then continued to work there for another nine years until the company closed.
Where I come from YOU would be on the receiving end of the suit for wrongful dismissal.
I'm not referring to the specific example which initiated this thread, I'm talking about the management-style of Thaddal, you cannot dictate to your employees what they do in their private lives, if they choose to date each other, if they're married and they are having an affair, if they go to strip clubs it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS unless they bring it onto the shop floor. Actually, here in Canada employers have the right to dictate that in the event of a relationship forming between two employees, that the employee of either the lowest position or of lesser seniority will be dismissed. My sister works for the city of Brampton and she had to sign a contract stating that she understood and agreed with this policy - each person working within that union had to sign the same thing although it might have changed over time as this was 20 years ago.
I do know that private employers are allowed to refuse to hire a relative of a current employee and to also take steps to ensure that relationships are discouraged in the workplace. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:56:31 AM | I haven't read all of the comments in this thread, so forgive me if it has been addressed arleady.
The problem is quite possibly not with one person, but perhaps it's systemic in your company. Even if your organization is very small, perhaps you should invest in proper hiring procedures/interview processes and put into place a sexual harassment policy and employee compliance manuals/guidelines whose scope covers a multitude of infractions. Having a universal harassment/discrimination policy should encourage employees to keep these types of comments to themselves. If you do have to fire anyone based on non-compliance, you will have the policy to back you up.
You should also determine whether your company can be held liable for discrimination or harassment without such a model in place.
This particular employee sounds like he was culled from the bottom of the barrel, despite his technical ability. If you intend to fire him you will probably need more than this one incident to document it. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/12/2009 9:55:59 PM |
The other day I overheard a conversation between two of my male employees. A woman who is our technical writer is a very attractive single African American. One of the male employees said that he was trying to get her to date him "just so I know what it's like to f*ck a black chick." From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that, and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general. I wanted to go right in there and fire him on the spot. The problem is, he's very important to us technically, and it would be difficult to quickly replace him. (I'm going to look into that anyway, and that's not my question. I'm not interested nor expecting in any advice on that.)
My question is, other than immediate termination, how would you handle this situation?
Well if I was in this situation, I would remember that I was running a business to make a profit, and quit being a nosy **stard and trying to enforce my moral or ethical values on people I employ just because my control-freak self can, and wait for someone to actually draw up a complaint instead of running around with my coffee cup trying to pretend it matters if I don't come in to work that day. I would remember that I am a business owner, not the thought police. | |
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:31:20 AM |
If he makes a move. If he proceeds. If ... If .... If..... then you have a case. Just because I said something about another co -worker, made a joke ~ unless "she" complains.. it's just chatter between 2 employees and you have no business getting in between as long as it doesn't affect their job... that's my opinion...
Anything which is stated in work which is of an offensive nature to anyone hearing it, by virtue of it being sexually explicit, foul language, degrading - etc, is reprehensible, and can and should be dealt. I would imagine the OP would have grounds of gross misconduct in the workplace, and he could issue a final warning.
My advice: interview the employee, inform him of his rights as an employee, inform him that his behaviour constitutes Gross Misconduct in the workplace. Whether you will need to conduct a formal investigation i do not know, but the outcome should at the very least be a formal and final warning.
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| A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 12:46:25 PM | Maybe you should be fired right along with him. Overheard or eavesdropping? This is how men talk. Be a man and choose whether you want to associate with him or not and let it go. In no way do words equate with actions and as far as his actions are concerned -- if he's irreplaceable -- then it's good for everyone (including the single women.) Usually guys that talk like that don't know what it like to f**k anyone anyway because they are the way they are.
P.S. If it was a woman talking about a man like that it should've made you smile... :) | |
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