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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?      Home login  
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 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 201
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?Page 9 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
Yes; and, it also requires some humourless little Nabob to go running to HR making whiny-sucky noises about "sexual harassment".

Gawd, what is wrong with people these days?
What is wrong is that people want freedom from oppression and the right to not have to listen to disparaging remarks about another person or themselves while in their place of employment. You want to talk trash, do it outside of work where the person can walk away and not have to be there to earn a living.

From a completely personal point of view, I worked at a job where I would have male customers come in and make me feel less of a person for the simple reason that I am a woman. I put up with this for quite some time, then in my early twenties, a man actually felt like he had the right to tell me to suck his dyck. Should I have to continue to work with this man? Seriously?

No... and you're damned right I filed a formal complaint against him with the workplace. I then continued to work there for another nine years until the company closed.


Where I come from YOU would be on the receiving end of the suit for wrongful dismissal.

I'm not referring to the specific example which initiated this thread, I'm talking about the management-style of Thaddal, you cannot dictate to your employees what they do in their private lives, if they choose to date each other, if they're married and they are having an affair, if they go to strip clubs it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS unless they bring it onto the shop floor.
Actually, here in Canada employers have the right to dictate that in the event of a relationship forming between two employees, that the employee of either the lowest position or of lesser seniority will be dismissed. My sister works for the city of Brampton and she had to sign a contract stating that she understood and agreed with this policy - each person working within that union had to sign the same thing although it might have changed over time as this was 20 years ago.

I do know that private employers are allowed to refuse to hire a relative of a current employee and to also take steps to ensure that relationships are discouraged in the workplace.
 CheshireCatalyst
Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 202
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:56:31 AM
I haven't read all of the comments in this thread, so forgive me if it has been addressed arleady.

The problem is quite possibly not with one person, but perhaps it's systemic in your company. Even if your organization is very small, perhaps you should invest in proper hiring procedures/interview processes and put into place a sexual harassment policy and employee compliance manuals/guidelines whose scope covers a multitude of infractions. Having a universal harassment/discrimination policy should encourage employees to keep these types of comments to themselves. If you do have to fire anyone based on non-compliance, you will have the policy to back you up.

You should also determine whether your company can be held liable for discrimination or harassment without such a model in place.

This particular employee sounds like he was culled from the bottom of the barrel, despite his technical ability. If you intend to fire him you will probably need more than this one incident to document it.
 NiceGuyGoneRogue
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 203
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/12/2009 9:55:59 PM

The other day I overheard a conversation between two of my male employees. A woman who is our technical writer is a very attractive single African American. One of the male employees said that he was trying to get her to date him "just so I know what it's like to f*ck a black chick." From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that, and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general. I wanted to go right in there and fire him on the spot. The problem is, he's very important to us technically, and it would be difficult to quickly replace him. (I'm going to look into that anyway, and that's not my question. I'm not interested nor expecting in any advice on that.)

My question is, other than immediate termination, how would you handle this situation?


Well if I was in this situation, I would remember that I was running a business to make a profit, and quit being a nosy **stard and trying to enforce my moral or ethical values on people I employ just because my control-freak self can, and wait for someone to actually draw up a complaint instead of running around with my coffee cup trying to pretend it matters if I don't come in to work that day. I would remember that I am a business owner, not the thought police.
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 204
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/19/2009 11:56:33 PM
I'm a 100% with interPhantom.
 rock_hunter
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 205
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:06:38 AM
Fire the girl, problem solved.
 footsiegirl
Joined: 11/15/2009
Msg: 206
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:31:20 AM

If he makes a move. If he proceeds. If ... If .... If..... then you have a case.
Just because I said something about another co -worker, made a joke ~ unless "she" complains.. it's just chatter between 2 employees and you have no business getting in between as long as it doesn't affect their job... that's my opinion...


Anything which is stated in work which is of an offensive nature to anyone hearing it, by virtue of it being sexually explicit, foul language, degrading - etc, is reprehensible, and can and should be dealt. I would imagine the OP would have grounds of gross misconduct in the workplace, and he could issue a final warning.

My advice: interview the employee, inform him of his rights as an employee, inform him that his behaviour constitutes Gross Misconduct in the workplace. Whether you will need to conduct a formal investigation i do not know, but the outcome should at the very least be a formal and final warning.
 footsiegirl
Joined: 11/15/2009
Msg: 207
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:33:47 AM
I meant to say a formal and final WRITTEN warning.
 Quietpainter
Joined: 10/26/2009
Msg: 208
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 12:46:25 PM
Maybe you should be fired right along with him. Overheard or eavesdropping? This is how men talk. Be a man and choose whether you want to associate with him or not and let it go. In no way do words equate with actions and as far as his actions are concerned -- if he's irreplaceable -- then it's good for everyone (including the single women.) Usually guys that talk like that don't know what it like to f**k anyone anyway because they are the way they are.

P.S. If it was a woman talking about a man like that it should've made you smile... :)
 realsexyrealsmart
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 209
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:25:21 PM
If what he said was really offensive, especially racial epithets and the like, then YOU have legally been the victim of harassment. Everyone has the right to a workplace free of offensive or hostile behavior. Saying these things where anyone else can hear them is rightly considered harassment. I would talk to him about it (not in front of others) and document the incident. You may need to refer to this documentation later if it becomes a pattern.

I think you should do your best to prevent the situation from repeating itself in whatever way seems reasonable. Ideally, he will change his behavior without a lot of fuss.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 210
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:30:37 PM

P.S. If it was a woman talking about a man like that it should've made you smile... :)

Interesting thought. I'm wondering what the OP would do if he had overheard the woman in question having a similar conversation, supposedly private, with a co-worker? She menions she would love to have sex with a particular bloke just to see what it was like to have a white guy f*ck her? She then goes on to say some offensive stuff about caucasians in general.

Would the OP be disgusted and want to fire her on the spot, despite her job proficiency? Would the OP go running to HR and have her written up? Would the OP, as some have suggested on this thread, engage in a campaign of passive-aggression to force her out of the company.

Or would the OP do... nothing?
 Uncle Fist
Joined: 12/18/2006
Msg: 211
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:46:08 PM

And ? Who are you ? moral police ?
Unless she complains for sexual harassment ~ or they do something going against company policy. It's none of your business.
You can't control people's comments, ideas, thoughts ~ it's a free country. You were not even invited to that conversation.


I kind of agree with this actually. My first thought when reading this was that I was wondering whether this guy actually violated any kind of company policy or if the OP just personally didn't like what he said.

Policy is policy, so if he violated something you should certainly take the appropriate action. That's why it's policy. But I do have to wonder when I see statements like...


From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that


Unless you have a company policy of "no sleeping with co-workers / only meaningful relationships," then this implies a personal agenda here.
 mysticaries
Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 212
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:50:12 PM
You're a manager with the capability of firing someone and you're posting on POF for advice on what to do in this situation? Sheesh. I am really underpaid and under-recognized.
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 213
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 1:53:56 PM

Unless you have a company policy of "no sleeping with co-workers / only meaningful relationships," then this implies a personal agenda here.

The 'elephant in the room'. The OP comes on a dating site to crucify an employee over the contents of a private conversation, dressing it up as a simple HR issue, when the real issue here is his personal moral compass.
 realsexyrealsmart
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 214
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 2:45:01 PM
Could be. OP? Care to explain?
 monalee1
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 215
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 6:23:12 PM
hi... a written warning will stop him if it was poor judgement or it will unravel him if he is a victimizer... either way you have done your part to protect your ~other ~ employee as well.... blessings
 central_scrutinizer
Joined: 10/11/2009
Msg: 216
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 7:07:47 PM
My gawd, this thread is still alive? Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
 annasthasia
Joined: 5/4/2005
Msg: 217
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 8:43:41 PM
So OP, what DID you do?

Pray tell...
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 218
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 11:04:18 PM

The other day I overheard a conversation between two of my male employees. A woman who is our technical writer is a very attractive single African American. One of the male employees said that he was trying to get her to date him "just so I know what it's like to f*ck a black chick." From what I could tell, he has no interest in her beyond that, and he even made some pretty ugly racial comments in general. I wanted to go right in there and fire him on the spot. The problem is, he's very important to us technically, and it would be difficult to quickly replace him.


Oh that is soooooooooooooooooooo easy.
1. I would without hesitation call him to my office.
2. I would tell him to sit down, never sit down myself, and immediately go to the website defining what is sexual harassment, print it out for him and also print out the part that it is a minimum $8000 fine for the business owner if a charge is filed and found to be true, highlight both and make sure he sees that a copy of them go straight to his file that gets laid in the center of your desk.
3. Make a phone call to the nearest or best technical recruiting agency and line up people for his job.
4. Call the payroll department and have them immediately bring his final check including any vacation if owed. If he has a key, take it.
5. Make a sticky note, attached to the front of his file that reads...call attorney.
6. Escort him with a box, lid or bag to his desk to gather anything that is his.
7. Escort him to the door.
8. Get the other guy in to sign a statement of what the guy said, along with a witness that you didn't coerce him to sign it. He will, because he knows he was dangerously close to getting the same thing and will want to cooperate.

No conversatioin, no discussion. End of story.

I have been faced with it and no one is THAT valuable. You condoned his behavior the second you allowed it, walked away and felt he was more valuable than basic human rights. If I were your boss and found you let this slip by, you would be getting the same.

SS
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 219
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 11:47:39 PM

No conversatioin, no discussion. End of story.

What would your position be if it had in fact been the female technical writer talking with a friend and saying she would like to bonk a white man to see what it was like and making racial comments?

Would you do exactly the same thing?
 SmilingSalmon
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 220
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/20/2009 11:59:25 PM
^^^Damn right I would.^^^ Human rights are human rights and I do not tolerate that assinine behavior in anyone.

No conversatioin, no discussion. End of story.

My actions would be fully backed and protected by law. My lack of reacting in that manor would hold me as guilty as they.

To be honest with you, my first firing over sexual harassment was a woman. She called another woman a b*tch and that word is a clear cut sexual harassment violator, no matter who says it against who. We almost had to pay the $8000, but the person asked the court to drop the case against the employer, due to my swift and caring action.

SS
 aSydneyMale
Joined: 5/16/2006
Msg: 221
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 12:04:40 AM

To be honest with you, my first firing over sexual harassment was a woman.

SS

Well I admire your consistency, although I wouldn't have been so heavy-handed, my view is a warning and permanent record entry would have sufficed.
 NiceGuyGoneRogue
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 222
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 2:59:36 AM
Ok, lets assume that these two are friends, if they were having what they thought was a private conversation about dating.


I would tell him to sit down, never sit down myself, and immediately go to the website defining what is sexual harassment, print it out for him and also print out the part that it is a minimum $8000 fine for the business owner if a charge is filed and found to be true, highlight both and make sure he sees that a copy of them go straight to his file that gets laid in the center of your desk.

he could simply say: "Mrs. SmilingSamon, I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about."


Escort him to the door. Get the other guy in to sign a statement of what the guy said, along with a witness that you didn't coerce him to sign it. He will, because he knows he was dangerously close to getting the same thing and will want to cooperate.

other guy: "Mrs. SmilingSamon, I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about."

Should one or the other be fired, a civil court would likely have word with you, as no actually sexual harassment of the female employer took place. There is direct proof by your action though, that a direct discriminatory action (without substantial proof) was taken by you as the employer. Remember, justice is blind, so if you as an employer can come up with valid reasons for essentially canning someone for having what they thought was a private conversation, they can sue you personally for tarnishing their work record for no good reason, ESPECIALLY since there was no actual harassment that took place, and you couldn't be held accountable for knowing of any as long as you ignored the intended private conversation in the first place, and waited for an actual *complaint*.
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 223
A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 7:13:19 AM

(mysticaries) You're a manager with the capability of firing someone and you're posting on POF for advice on what to do in this situation? Sheesh. I am really underpaid and under-recognized.




Binroe...
 CheshireCatalyst
Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 224
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 9:43:21 AM

To be honest with you, my first firing over sexual harassment was a woman. She called another woman a b*tch and that word is a clear cut sexual harassment violator, no matter who says it against who...


Smiling Salmon, as a case of "sexual" harassment, this surprises me. Since "****" is now a colloquial term that is basically used against anyone you might disagree with (not that it's acceptable) how did this become sexual? I wasn't sure so I checked the University of Toronto's definition:

"Sexual Harassment is unwanted sexual attention or unwanted emphasis on your sex or sexual orientation. It includes any unwelcome pressure for sexual favors, any comments, gestures or other conduct which places an offensive focus on the sex or sexual orientation of another person, and any gender-based conduct that is directed at you and that creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working or learning environment for you. Sexual harassment is often confused with sexual assault. Sexual harassment is any unwanted comment, gesture or contact of a sexual nature."

It does seem that, as a possible sexual offense, a judge might not agree with your company if it came down to a civil dispute, which is what seems to have happened. Why were you almost on the hook for $8,000? What did that money represent?

Genuinely curious.........
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 225
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A Very Ugly Situation - What Would YOU Do?
Posted: 11/21/2009 9:46:23 AM
I can't remember the title, but there was a movie awhile back...I think starring Tom Cruise, where people were being prosicuted for criminal thoughts in order to prevent the actual crime. At the time, I thought it was so left wing radical and ridiculous, that I couldn't finish watching it. Reading many of the post here, lead me to believe that it isn't as far fetched as I thought. Maybe when all you human rights activist get finished legislating away all the humanity in humans, you might discover that what you sought to protect....you actually distroyed.
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