| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:15:37 AM | When did we start to become afraid of kids?
When they were given the control of an adult, with the brains and attitudes of a child ...
I do not hate children, I do not agree with the abuse of children, I do however agree that at times a bloody good punishment is what is needed, and that the Adults should have control of all situations, they should not have to explain themselves at every given opportunity to those that think they know whats best, but at times actually have no practical experience, or in the case of this father need to gain some experience ..
This is our future generation, think of the long term implications, not the quick fix..
Discipline and respect should be mandatory within the school, this will have an effect on the child's social behaviour...
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:22:29 AM | people think corporal punishment and spanking is a quick fix.. but it worked woners for hundreds of years...then everyone started to have the hippy mind set and said we shouldn't spank. guess what? rowdy children and rebelious behaviour has shot up since spanking and all that jazz has been mostly stopped..
now, you must be blind if you don't see that. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:32:27 AM | My ex was a qualified nursery nurse who now teaches "parenting skills" to "problem" families. And she was for ever telling me off about the way I handled my kids eg., when they were knocking lumps out of each other (and they were both 'man-sized' at this point) After I'd separated them I would tell them that if they want to fight, go ahead but the winner fights me! She would tell me that threatening violence was not the way..... but they were already using violence!!
In any event neither of them fancied it much, and it worked. Violence isn't the answer though but you do need to take control.
Someone has to be in charge.
I'm not saying that children should be scared of their parents though,
.........they should be feckin terrified!!
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:41:18 AM |
The teachers need to be able to impose discipline.
The parents need to back them up
i totaly agree joe..the goverment has got to give the powers back to the teachers and other adults to impose some sort of dicipline and be able to defend themselves..look what happend to that teacher a little while back who went mad and beat the feck out of that kid..he was pushed and pushed by these kids until he snapped..this was tragic and should of never happend..but this is the effect the kids and chavs are having on us adults today..its way out of control..and somthing needs to be done soon..its all gotta stop..and being nice and trying to reason with them isnt the way to do it... | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:48:23 AM | I worked in a primary school as a classroom ancillary and was often attacked by unruly children, spat at, kicked, bitten! we cannot even hold the children back as if we do we can be charged, we just have to let them do what they wish, how can they respect someone who can't even restrain them to stop them inflicting harm?
Being told by a 10 year old, 'touch me and i'll sue you' just sums todays world up! | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:52:05 AM | people think corporal punishment and spanking is a quick fix..
Think you might possibly have misunderstood my post, the quick fix I am referring to is the inept way that social services and some of those in authority tend to think, remove the child, address this child's issues, there all done, however that is just one child ..
This problem is, and has been affecting every generation of children for the last decade plus, and it is getting worse, it is not affecting just one or two, but entire generations are/will be growing up with no respect, manners, or at times education..
Unfortunately we will never see corporal punishment again, and YES I do mean unfortunately, but there is nothing to stop Borstal, or even compulsory National Service being bought back for those that refuse further education, or refuse to work...
Further more :
How do you discipline a child that has no knowledge of discipline, either in the home or at school ?
How does that child administer self discipline when it becomes an Adult ?
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:53:32 AM |
The teachers need to be able to impose discipline.
The parents need to back them up.
There are some schools where kids learn in a culture of fear and I know there are schools where teachers have hit kids and I mean kids that are four and five years of age. Not years ago when they were able to but now. Kids should not go to school to be beaten and then have incidents covered up by people who should deal with it.
There are schools that have been condemned by regulatory bodies for the manner in which kids in their care are treated, yet they are still open.
Myself, I was never slapped at home, my mum and I didn't ever come to blows, we had our disagreements but she never belted me, nor my brother, I didn't need to be slapped to respect her, I respected her and I still do. You can discipline someone without hitting them. Neither did I disrespect my teachers at school, it wasn't the thought of the belt that stopped me from misbehaving, I knew how to behave appropriately.
I was never battered at home, but I was slapped across the face by a member of staff at the nursery I went to, I was two years of age. It's not acceptable that because some staff have a badge of authority that they take advantage of it.
Saying in a blanket fashion, kids should need to respect their teachers and that is that, well there are teachers who abuse their positions of responsibility that they have.
There are also parents who will slap a child over any least little thing because they don't have the parenting skills to be able to deal with whatever the issue is that is going on. There are kids who are abused day in day out at home and violence is all they know and that scars you for life.
Some of these kids don't actually live that long tragically. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:07:05 PM | but this is the effect the kids and chavs are having on us adults today..its way out of control..and somthing needs to be done soon..its all gotta stop..and being nice and trying to reason with them isnt the way to do it...
Couldn't agree more chop, kids actually like to have boundaries set, that's one thing I learned from my missus, but you have to start early. And be consistent. By the time they're teenagers, if they've been allowed to get away with it so far it's very difficult.
I know what the official line is: " if you touch me it's assault" and I'm not a teacher, so perhaps it would be different and I'd be getting sued, but my response has always been to say you can tell me your rights 'til you're blue in the face, but that won't save you. And it is gonna hurt! And when needs be I kick them up the arris and tell them to sue me! None ever has, (although I was charged with assault once, but the cps dropped it).
And the weird thing is they actually respect and like me for it!
I threw a bunch of them off the roof of the flats where I was living (Not Literally, although that was an option!), and they all knew me by then and didn't give me any shyte, but this one kid did the "I'm folding my arms and not going anywhere" thing and I had to physically "help" him to leave. (I was in a very bad mood..) The next day, I saw some of them hanging around near my shop, and went to talk to them, just to say "I may have been a little bit heavy handed with your mate, tell him he caught me on a bad day, and I'm sorry" They all said " No No mate! he was out of order, he was a pr1ck, and you were quite right!" They're all ok really. they're just kids hanging out like I did. Annoying grown-ups, and being loud, we all did it. Just kids.
Edit: ^^^ Just for the record, I never had to hit my kids, I always asked them if that's what they wanted, and they never did. So I'm not a child beater or anything, this is just about getting respect. And making children aware of what you will and won't tolerate. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:08:11 PM | | a chav tried to sue me once because he went to mug me with a knife and i knocked him out... the greedy git wanted a couple of grand compensation! | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:10:02 PM | There are some schools where kids learn in a culture of fear and I know there are schools where teachers have hit kids and I mean kids that are four and five years of age. Not years ago when they were able to but now. Kids should not go to school to be beaten and then have incidents covered up by people who should deal with it
so basicly what you are saying..is that if the teachers are given back the power to discipline kids..they will beat them black and blue..commit horrendous assaults on little 4 year olds..and it will all be covered up..?  when i was at school in the 60s and 70s..coperal punishment was the norm to unruly kids..and i must admit..even though i grew up in a tough part of liverpool..i cant remember any kids..myself included..getting beaten like you say happens...iv never heard of it..and im sure..alot of other people aint heard of them sort of attacks either..except in very very rare cases... | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:21:21 PM | No, what I said was, I know of instances where kids have been assaulted by staff and these incidents have been reported to the authorities and nothing has been done about it. I didn't say if teachers are given back the power to discipline kids incidents like that will happen, I said I know of incidents that have happened in schools where young kids have been hit by teaching staff, in front of other staff, the incidents reported and nothing was done about it. I'm talking about this year, not if and when people are given back the right to discipline people.
Their parents were not told either. Neither did I say they were beaten to within an inch of their life either but they were assaulted, one child was assaulted on more than one occasion and one staff member who witnessed it was extremely upset and traumatised.
I got belted around the face when I was two years old by a nursery teacher, I wasn't being unruly. Why should I have to be in a so called safe place to be slapped by someone and have my mum pay for the privilege?
iv never heard of it..and im sure..alot of other people aint heard of them sort of attacks either..except in very very rare cases...
Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. One of the kids was actually visually impaired and five years of age. Just about as vulnerable as you can get. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:23:11 PM | Saying in a blanket fashion, kids should need to respect their teachers and that is that, well there are teachers who abuse their positions of responsibility that they have.
They are in the minority..Imo..
The only advantages of our liberal society is that Anyone who is in contact with the vulnerable is now thoroughly checked, meaning that they now have far greater protection from the small percentage that did chose to abuse their power..
You can discipline someone without hitting them.
That requires ***Respect***
There are also parents who will slap a child over any least little thing because they don't have the parenting skills to be able to deal with whatever the issue is that is going on.
Irrelevant, it is not the issue being debated..
The crux of this debate is Teacher power,
Was the Teacher in question right or wrong ??
Was the Father right or wrong by endorsing his sons actions??
Even procuring them in relation to a directive from a Teacher ..
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:29:16 PM |
The only advantages of our liberal society is that Anyone who is in contact with the vulnerable is now thoroughly checked, meaning that they now have far greater protection from the small percentage that did chose to abuse their power..
Disclosures alone do not stop people who want to abuse kids being able to do so as recent events in the news would bear out. So some people still have power over kids and actively abuse it.
That requires ***Respect***
Which I had for my mum and still have.
Irrelevant, it is not the issue being debated..
Other people in this thread have spoken about violence in relation to them being parents. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:50:50 PM |
Disclosures alone do not stop people who want to abuse kids being able to do so as recent events in the news would bear out. So some people still have power over kids and actively abuse it.
There will always be those that abuse their power, it's life get used to it ..
The behaviour of children is getting out of control, to borrow your phrase
as recent events in the news would bear out
Which I had for my mum and still have.
Some of us were lucky enough to come from a generation of parents were physical punishment was allowed, but not administered, we had respect because we could have been smacked, but we were not, we knew the option was there, we chose to respect/behave, and to not push anyone to the point that they would chose to use such violence..
However feel free to educate me on what else can be done, as it seems that we have run out of solutions, to a problem that is increasing, and being made worse by misguided tolerance and sympathy of said situation ..
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 12:58:12 PM | The problem with kids these days is that they are taught everything about their RIGHTS but nothing about respect or responsibility.
My mother works at a primary school, and even kids as young as 8 can terrorise the teachers. One day she saw a boy bullying another and shouted at him to leave him alone, he replied "f*ck off you old bag".......mum being mum, a very sprightly 70 yr old cleaner, ran after the lad and marched him to the head master's office .......where SHE was admonished for touching the child and for "verbally abusing" him by shouting at him........the kid was given a "there there there" and sent home without even being warned about his behaviour.
when my mother complained the Head said she'd be lucky if the boy's parents didn't put in a complaint about her "abuse". He then admitted that the last time he had tried to discipline the same child he ran out of the school and brought back his father who was wielding a baseball bat! | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 1:02:42 PM |
However feel free to educate me on what else can be done, as it seems that we have run out of solutions, to a problem that is increasing, and being made worse by misguided tolerance and sympathy of said situation
i realy cant think of anything to add to them words..a whole debate put into a nutshell..nice one...  | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 1:06:04 PM |
Disclosures alone do not stop people who want to abuse kids being able to do so as recent events in the news would bear out. So some people still have power over kids and actively abuse it.
Sadly this is true, and probably always will be.
And I'm not advocating a return to corporal punishment which is far too much like some old ritual beating for my liking (I always escaped this at school)
And when I was at school we had some teachers who could only be described as sadists!
But I do think that teachers should sort of have the power of attorney for the duration. To be given parental rights to discipline children without the fear of reprisal. And this is always in circumstances where it's necessary and deserved.
And I think that culturally there has been a shift away from backing teachers, towards the "litigation society" where parents have got their eye on the prize, and will take action against schools at the drop of a hat. Not all of them, but far too many.
I think a lot of this shift is political, we are encouraged to find fault in our services by politicians, and this results in too much criticism, for people doing difficult and worthwhile work.
And they all "know their rights" etc., and this is reflected in the attitudes of their children, as in this case from the sound of it.
When this kid is 35, if he hasn't done time by then, he will likely be ashamed and embarrassed by his behaviour now.
I was, and I was chucked out for being a little shyte!! | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 1:08:02 PM | punishment not just threats....in my day if anyone was sent to the headmaster's office they KNEW they were in trouble and soon towed the line.
fine parents if children fail to keep to the behavioural code of the school...hit them where it hurts ...if they can't teach their kids to behave then make them attend parenting/counselling sessions.
3 strikes and you're out.........kick the worst offenders out of school...let the parents have the responsibility of controling them and educating them...why should other kids have to suffer because of their behaviour? | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 1:09:50 PM | For my sins I too work for a primary school and I am afraid in my experience it isnt just their lack of respect for teachers its the same for anyone other than their parents who try to control them. One problem is their total lack of manners even from a very young age. By the time they reach school age they surely should be saying basic things like please and thankyou as a natural thing to say. It isnt down to the school to teach them every single basic rule to live by.They should have learnt the basics of manners and respect for adults before they go to school
Can u imagine how distracting a badly behaved child would be in class no matter what their age. If my child was in that said class I certainly wouldnt be happy about it | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 1:12:37 PM | If it was one of my boys I would have given him a good skelp on the lug and marched him up to the school to apologise to the teacher concearned.
He was only being asked to stand up, not to disect a frog or kill a fecking puppy. he should have repected the teacher and got up off his arse.
In my book everyone deserves a degree of respect until they do something to lose it. The fathers excuse that the teacher was new and hadn't earned it is ridiculous IMO. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/23/2009 4:01:46 AM | Children should respect their elders regardless of who it is.
The father was bang out of order saying what he did.Ignorant and it's no wonder the lad is the way he is,ill mannered and no doubt will always be that way.He's not been taught by his parents any better.
At the school i went to in Leics we just stood automatically when any teacher walked into the room,not just the lads but the girls too.Failure to do so would have resulted in a detention and parents being brought in | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:43:34 AM | In life there are times when there are things we dont agree with or like, but just have to put our heads down and get on with it. If we didn't, we'd not even get out of bed in a morning half the time!
I now realise by trying to empower my kids to stand up for what they believe, I went over the top and gave them false expectations, and now the eldest doesn't know when to just accept certain things and swallow them. It is making life hard for him.
I believe this parent is in the wrong. He may well just not want his son to grow up imagining the 'welcome' banner of a door mat on his fore head, but there is balance to be had in everything.
Whether we like it or not, we all have to conform to at least some of society's rules if we want the benefits of belonging. Life doesn't always feel fair, and some things have to be seen as a means to an end. Kids need to understand this. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:09:21 AM | I am also from a generation where you wouldn't dare talk back to a teacher - never mind detention or similar, I was more 'afraid' of what my mum would say or do when she heard about it!
Having worked in a school in Burnley, and once upon a time married to a teacher, the standard response of badly behaved kids to teachers and support staff would be 'What are you going to do about it? You can't punish me, the law is on my side'.
At home they get taught about their rights first, not about respect and right and wrong. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:11:02 AM | The law says parents have to ensure their kids have a suitable education, state school is just one of several ways this responsibility can be implemented.
If the father doesn't agree with school policies he does have the right to remove his child and teach his brat at home until he's beyond compulsory school age or a place becomes available at an institution with agreeable rules and policies. He can even choose a fee paying institution if he's prepared to work hard enough to afford the fees.
More and more familes educate their children outside of the local state system - but that requires a fook load of effort on the part of the parent as opposed to just mouthing off to anyone who will listen.
If the Dad feels that strongly that manners do NOT maketh the man he can just take his kid outta that school - simple innit? | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/23/2009 2:31:31 PM |
For my sins I too work for a primary school and I am afraid in my experience it isnt just their lack of respect for teachers its the same for anyone other than their parents who try to control them. One problem is their total lack of manners even from a very young age. By the time they reach school age they surely should be saying basic things like please and thankyou as a natural thing to say. It isnt down to the school to teach them every single basic rule to live by.They should have learnt the basics of manners and respect for adults before they go to school
Exactly, it's not the school system which is failing the children but their own parents.
Can u imagine how distracting a badly behaved child would be in class no matter what their age. If my child was in that said class I certainly wouldnt be happy about it
Isn't that the other point of schooling, the socialisation aspect - pretty soon most children understand a certain hierarchy within the school which is separate from the student versus teacher relationship and who is milk monitor or class prefect, it's always obvious who are the natural born leaders and jokers or who are the pains and most disruptive, I think all children would ultimately respect any authority figure who manages to keep control of situations within a class or school which means everybody gets a fair crack at the whip, and that those few who wish to screw it up for the majority are taken to task for their selfish behaviour.
The headmaster of that school is right to introduce standing up as your teacher enters the classroom but not because the pupils are being expected to treat a teacher like some kind of god but because by their actions it announces they are aware class has begun and they are ready to settle down and get into learning for the next 40 minutes what they need to learn before the bell rings.
For those who have distorted memories and would claim that being given six of the best with the cane or slipper during their schooldays never did them any harm, you must remember that the laws changed in the 1990's precisely because of the experience of your own peers nationally, those peers, who themselves became parents and knew that that treatment of their children, i.e. humiliation and corporal punishment was not acceptable anymore and lobbied for change...you think introducing the removal of the right of teachers to beat the crap out of children just magicked itself up out of the ether and became the law happened because some lone renegade dissatisfied dogooder decided it should happen?
Teachers are allowed to physically restrain children who's behaviour presents immediate danger to pupils or anybody else in the school environment or even to those self same students, teachers are not that constrained in ensuring the safety of others at all.
I wonder if the father in this scenario presented by the OP actually bothers to go to Parent Teacher meetings or has even volunteered to become a member of the school board or bothered to vote in a another parent to the school board who he would hope would represent his views when it comes to deciding school policy | |
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