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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:14:43 AM | Crumbs guys I seem to have opened a right "can of worms" with Luke 14:26
sorry guys
Bob | |
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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/4/2009 1:13:01 AM | I might be wrong, but I believe Luke 14:26 is a part of a story Jesus is telling about a master of a house. He was forced to summon all kinds of people to his great supper. All so that his house would be filled, as every one of his servants declined his offer showing proof they had others, whom needed tending to, that they cared for more than their master. The master was in the end calling for those who felt they had no loved ones, and those with no burdens to bear but their own, in order to fill his seats.
Luke 14 also talks about how when you build something, you should build it so that it can be fully used. Otherwise you will be mocked for starting something you could not finish, or something you have to finish in a way that appears disagreeable or cowardly. And when one offers something to others, they should not put themselves above others, because they in turn won't be offered anything by those they refused to humble themselves to.
Both points probably tie into that master of the house story.
I am getting the impression that Luke 14 is about Jesus trying to enlighten the lawyers and Pharisees who refused to aid a sick man because it was their sabbath. It sounds like he was trying to get the message across that they had built a foundation which would cause them to either leave others behind, or create something that ignored what others cared about, and therefore could not be completed.
I am not really sure about my interpretation of all this though. | |
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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/5/2009 4:04:59 PM | I dont understand even after all the war and death people still believe that their religion
is all nice and peaceloving,, i think the bible was written by a very clever person who knew exactly how with its nondescript ideas and terminologies to incite great debate a debate that has incited war over the centuries,
Why do people still follow this crap?
There are only facts and science
With half the quotes people are writing here it looks to me like the bible was written by a nutjob who likes blood.
Completely fiction, all made up, and still people read it like its the truth
No wonder there are so many Bible bashers in the world
I wish Christians would believe in fairies (at least theyre peaceful) | |
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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/6/2009 9:22:16 AM | RE Msg: 25 by CountIbli:
Yes. But to give the impression that I am not aware of those arguments and haven't read them before, and considered them, is a gross misunderstanding. It's true, I have no idea how much you've researched the subject. I can only go by what you've said. Your critique of the theory was extremely shallow so I could only assume that your knowledge of the subject was shallow.
It also tends to p*ss off those who try to use ideas as shoehorns to push their own agendas. But then again, those people seem to grab at anything to support what they want others to believe, whether it be religion is evil, or that America invading foreign contries is a good thing. Those people are always p*ssed at me, because I'm usually fighting for the underdog in any situation against them.
It would be akin to someone arguing that Einstein's theory of gravity can't be right because rubber sheets have 2 dimensions but spacetime has 4. That's quite a good example, because I've pointed out problems with the "rubber sheet" analogy, and people much more knowledgeable about relativity than me agreed that the way the theory is presented is often horrendously flawed.
A much better example is a fat guy on a couch, because the couch warps around him, and everyone else ends up leaning in towards him. But then, most people trying to describe these concepts don't tend to think too deeply into if others will understand the concepts, but are more interested in that others agree that the concept makes sense to someone clever, and they should agree with the other guy because they don't understand it, but he does. I prefer that others come away with a better understanding of the subject than me. But I won't deny that doesn't work with someone who is just using the concepts as shoehorns for their agenda. It really only works when you're dealing with someone with no axe to grind, and who is happy to treat people who agree with the concept, and people who totally disagree with it, as being equally intelligent. | |
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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:04:21 PM |
That's quite a good example, because I've pointed out problems with the "rubber sheet" analogy, and people much more knowledgeable about relativity than me agreed that the way the theory is presented is often horrendously flawed.
The example came to mind because my brother actually used it. No matter how I tried to explain that there is no "rubber sheet" in GR he refused to listen since the rubber sheet analogy is used so frequently. To be honest I don't even like the terminology of "curved spacetime" because it conjures up an image of spacetime curving into a flat 5 dimensional spacetime. | |
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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:55:29 PM | RE Msg: 30 by CountIbli:
That's quite a good example, because I've pointed out problems with the "rubber sheet" analogy, and people much more knowledgeable about relativity than me agreed that the way the theory is presented is often horrendously flawed. The example came to mind because my brother actually used it. No matter how I tried to explain that there is no "rubber sheet" in GR he refused to listen since the rubber sheet analogy is used so frequently. To be honest I don't even like the terminology of "curved spacetime" because it conjures up an image of spacetime curving into a flat 5 dimensional spacetime.
What I've discovered is that most criticisms of religion are usually founded in ignorance of religion, because most people are truly ignorant of religion. But then, people educated in their religion aren't apt to point out that for every 1 book printed that studies relativity in detail, there are 20 printed that study their religion in as great detail, and about 100 written in the totality history. So most people don't even have a clue just how little they know about any religion. I only say this because I worked in libraries, and spent most of my childhood in libraries. So it was natural for me to notice just how many books there were in any scenario. Even today, the very first thing I look for when I walk into someone's home, is what books they have on their shelves. | |
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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/7/2009 12:39:48 AM |
What I've discovered is that most criticisms of religion are usually founded in ignorance of religion, because most people are truly ignorant of religion.
One of the difficulties in any religious debate is that no two religious people can agree on all religious beliefs. So whenever someone makes a point against a religious position religious people will always be able to say "Well I don't believe that to begin with. You're just stereotyping me." | |
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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/7/2009 5:02:26 PM | RE Msg: 32 by CountIbli:
One of the difficulties in any religious debate is that no two religious people can agree on all religious beliefs. So whenever someone makes a point against a religious position religious people will always be able to say "Well I don't believe that to begin with. You're just stereotyping me." Yes. I found that often. But then that just makes it very difficult for me to criticise anyone for their views. That might be why I ended up moving much more towards pluralism, even in my teens, and rejected the views of people who said that one group was "better" than another, even if they were people claiming that my religious beliefs were better than others.
But that has led me to a question. Why are some people of one religion hurtful to another? If I cannot stereotype them all as evil, why would some be evil, and others not? My conclusion has been that it is down to the person's choices, that Xians don't have to be evil, especially as the one thing that Xians seem to say about Jesus the most, is that he was all about love, and the same is true of anyone's beliefs, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, spiritualists, Shintoists. If one hurts others, it can only be down to your own personal choice. So, why do some people go around telling others they are going to Hell? 'Cause they're a**holes. If not, then ALL of their religion would do it, and that's never true about any religion.
Is it true that some religions call for proselytising others? Sure. But the most successful way to get someone to convert to your beliefs, is always by being a good example, and not trying to persuade them, for no-one likes having beliefs shoved down their throat, and it is the surest way of getting someone to go the other way. So it's against the whole concept of conversion to persuade. So why do some try to persuade others to convert to their religion? Because they've persuaded themselves that being a difficult person is good, when they know it's not.
That's also why I'm not down on Xians, even though if any groups have suffered at the hands of Xians, Jews are easily amongst those who have suffered the most. Those that hurt Jews, must have been a**holes.
Mind you, it's not easy to live by, to believe that you really cannot just cast blame at a group. The temptation to do so can be overwhelming. Such a view means that responsibility for my actions rests only with myself. | |
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| Confused agnostic.
Posted: 11/8/2009 4:28:26 PM | Why criticise a person for their beliefs?
To me it is fun to look at what people believe or say they believe and learn about how they follow it. I think that the ones who put the world to work making money and spreading sickness, war, and starvation should have been called a lot of things Christian is not one. | |
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