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Posted: 11/1/2009 7:20:54 PM |
This is how I understand the project. Humans are trying to create a "small" blackhole on the planet Earth. Now all my life I've been told how dangerous blackholes are, and they should be avoided at all costs, spaghetti effect and such. And now we're trying to make one. Excuse me but doesn't this strike anyone else as insanity? I've heard about the parallel universes, and getting anti-matter. Another dangerous item I may add. What does this do to aid the human condition? Or am I all wrong on the Super-Collider that I've been hearing about the last few years?
No...
A lot of worry about the project was that it would create a black hole and kill us all. But given the size of the particles, black holes... if created (as it theoretically could happen) wouldn't be any bigger than ones created in our own atmosphere as particles collide all the time near the speed of light or faster.
My concern would e more about something happening that we don't know about... there attaching a lot of energy to helium and hydrogen... practically the primary building blocks to a Sun. You start mashing those up in an environment meant to simulate an environment like that of moments after the Big Bang... who knows... maybe we will finally find that missing explanation of how you get matter from energy at 'exponential' rates :) Will bring an entirely new meaning to God Particles :)
Did you know when those particles are at full speed, each particle will weigh more than 7,000 times the amount it does at rest.... As they travel at like 99.99999999% the speed of light, because they can't go faster, they get heavier :) I find that fascinating! | |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 7:39:52 PM |
This is how I understand the project. Humans are trying to create a "small" blackhole on the planet Earth. Now all my life I've been told how dangerous blackholes are, and they should be avoided at all costs, spaghetti effect and such. And now we're trying to make one. Excuse me but doesn't this strike anyone else as insanity?
No, it strikes me as a lack of understanding of the physics.
What you are talking about is the hypothesis that, in certain high energy particle interactions, a micro-black hole could be the result. However, the weakness of the idea of these being "planet eaters" is that A) the black hole would only last a billionth of a second due to hawking radiation and B) the aperture is smaller than anything it could "eat."
Additionally, if this was a problem, it would have been a problem for us and the rest of the universe a long time ago. That's because TeV interactions happen in the upper atmosphere all the time from cosmic rays. We're still here, so clearly not a problem.
What does this do to aid the human condition?
Can you say how this harms humanity, now that we've dealt with the other? | |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 7:54:21 PM | Media really does kill science, doesn't it.
People still think a warhead was shot at the moon too.
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Posted: 11/1/2009 7:57:08 PM | Why is Nostradamus being brought up here? This is Science/Philosophy. Not Crackpot Theories/Bullshit Conspiracies.
Anyway, to get back on topic: If I remember correctly, I do recall we (The USA) scrapped some project to create a supercollider because of the cost. | |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 8:26:09 PM | RE Msg: 20 by CountIbli:
I've heard this "theory" as well. What it boils down to is that the Standard Model is an inconsistent theory (it requires all particles to be massless, but since they aren't the actual masses are inserted into the equations at the end). The Higgs Boson is a mechanism added onto the theory to make it consistent. They've been looking for it for years with no luck. In the past they've been able to get away with saying that they just need a more powerful accelerator (Higgs Boson theory is not well constrainted so they have a lot of wiggle room). Well, now they're running out of room. They now need to come up with some crazy rationalization for why the Higgs won't be found if the LHC doesn't find it. The fact that this "crazy theory" makes the Higgs Boson unfalsifiable is of no concern to the Disciples of Higgs. But what's the alternative? Abandon the Standard Model? AFAIK, it's the standard model, because it is THE model for science. Are there ANY other models that are taken seriously?
Not that I'm against alternatives. I've always wondered if there was another way to look at Physics. But it's such a standard, that it's taught in every high school all over the world. It's the basis for all of modern physics, chemistry, and everything that comes off that. Even biology is understood using it.
Sure, there is always string theory. But let's face it: I was hearing physicists discussing string theory as "the next big thing" in the early 90s. We're at the end of the 00s, and it's not really any closer to being taken seriously. Anyway, from my understanding of string theory, it just suggests that inside every quark, there are tiny strings. It seems to merely extend the standard model, rather than be an alternative to it. But if anyone wants to use the LHC to find superstrings, why not?
RE Msg: 25 by gadgetdoc:
This is how I understand the project. Humans are trying to create a "small" blackhole on the planet Earth. Now all my life I've been told how dangerous blackholes are, and they should be avoided at all costs, spaghetti effect and such. And now we're trying to make one. Excuse me but doesn't this strike anyone else as insanity? I've heard about the parallel universes, and getting anti-matter. Another dangerous item I may add. What does this do to aid the human condition? Or am I all wrong on the Super-Collider that I've been hearing about the last few years? That's why everyone was worried when it was first fired up in September 2008. Only thing is, it broke before it got going. It's been over a year since then, and things keep setting it back. It makes me uncomfortable, because I STILL don't know what will happen when it gets going. But I do wonder why all the delays. | |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 8:40:10 PM |
Media really does kill science, doesn't it.
Here we go with the media bashing. 
Has no one ever heard of Marshall McLuhan? | |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 9:20:43 PM | | Marshall MacLuhan... 'The medium is the message'.... 'global village'... I watch CBC... Sometimes...lol... Personnally I have'nt seen too much negative press about CERN... more negative things coming from the Churches... | |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 9:41:31 PM |
Ancient Muse.... that's blasphemy... You're a Canadian...lol
My apologies. Maybe it's time I sat down and reassessed my tv watching.... perhaps I'm being too inundated with US channels.
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Posted: 11/1/2009 9:56:11 PM | Bottom line, he says that the "medium is the message" in that the very way a message is delivered is as important, if not more so, than the actual message itself.
It also means that we're also active participants with the "media" for we become a part of the "content."
In other words...if you hear something about the end of the world because of CERN, you have a choice to react based on that information and accept it...which makes you a passive receiver. Or, you can be more active, take responsibility and try to learn more.
That's my read on MM, anyway. We can discuss that in another post later, perhaps. | |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 10:00:59 PM | Well, as they say :
"In life there are two types of people. There are drivers, and there are passengers." | |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 10:27:10 PM |
Well, as they say :
"In life there are two types of people. There are drivers, and there are passengers."
You got that from a hyundai commercial. That, and it's not like we can all be theoretical physicists. | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 4:16:24 AM | LHC uses some cutting edge technologies in its design & is a pretty complex machine. Added both of these together and I think the conclusion is that 1)if there weren't problems in the beginning you'd be shocked to the point of wondering if LHC people were being totally honest with us outsiders 2) by the time LHC operation becomes "routine" it will be obsolete.
The Higgs Boson if it exist is only responsible for mass in quarks which represents roughly 10% of the luminated mass in the universe, but without something like a Higgs Boson or something that acts similar to the Higgs Boson the nucleus of a hydrogen atom couldn't exist. | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 8:11:37 AM | Re: false profit
Why is Nostradamus being brought up here? This is Science/Philosophy. Not Crackpot Theories/Bullshit Conspiracies.
He is being brought up here because of potential direct warning he made to the residence of Geneva, saying something that could be about two rays colliding that would destroy them all. Obviously your not to familiar with Nostradamus and his predictions, but he is one of the only prophets ever that has proved his predictions to come to light time and time, and time again.
Since you don't know about him, here are some of the bigger should knows
~He was born in the early 1500's
~He saw the French Revolution
~He saw Napoleon Bonaparte
~He saw Adolf Hitler, and even called him out by name!
~He saw the discovery of the new world!
~He saw nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
~He saw the Apollo moon landings
~He saw the death of Diana, Princess of Wales
~He saw the Space shuttle Challenger disaster
~He possible saw the events of 9/11 while debates about this go on, he did nail the location
The countless books written about Nostradamus went on to serve as the basis for Orson Welles' celebrated film The Man Who Saw Tomorrow (1980). After that video, Nastradoumous gained a huge following and many more videos have since been made.
Look it up
"Leave, leave Geneva every last one of you,
Saturn will be converted from gold to iron,
Raypoz will exterminate all who oppose"
~Nostradamus | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/2/2009 8:51:25 AM |
But what's the alternative? Abandon the Standard Model? AFAIK, it's the standard model, because it is THE model for science. Are there ANY other models that are taken seriously?
I don't know of any viable alternative. Most of the proposals I've seen are laughably inept. The remaining few that are intriguing are under-developed and under-explored and it remains to be seen if they can even explain basic phenomena.
Not that I'm against alternatives. I've always wondered if there was another way to look at Physics. But it's such a standard, that it's taught in every high school all over the world. It's the basis for all of modern physics, chemistry, and everything that comes off that. Even biology is understood using it.
I still think it should be taught even though I think it's flawed. At least until we get a better theory.
Sure, there is always string theory. But let's face it: I was hearing physicists discussing string theory as "the next big thing" in the early 90s. We're at the end of the 00s, and it's not really any closer to being taken seriously. Anyway, from my understanding of string theory, it just suggests that inside every quark, there are tiny strings. It seems to merely extend the standard model, rather than be an alternative to it. But if anyone wants to use the LHC to find superstrings, why not?
The idea behind string theory makes sense (it eliminates some problems associated with point-particles). Unfortunately the way it's been developed it's not clear if it's scientific anymore. It doesn't appear to have any predictive power. How would we recognize a string if we found one? No one seems to be able to say. | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 9:09:21 AM | Credulity is sooooo unsexy:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/shuttle.asp
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/nostradamus.asp
http://www.howstuffworks.com/nostradamus.htm/printable
http://incompetech.com/gallimaufry/nostradamus_a.html
http://www.experiencefestival.com/nostradamus_-_misquotes_and_hoaxes
Next you'll be telling us the Earth grows like a grapefruit. | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 9:40:50 AM |
Next you'll be telling us the Earth grows like a grapefruit.
Please, don't get him started! | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 4:04:25 PM |
He is being brought up here because of potential direct warning he made to the residence of Geneva, saying something that could be about two rays colliding that would destroy them all. Obviously your not to familiar with Nostradamus and his predictions, but he is one of the only prophets ever that has proved his predictions to come to light time and time, and time again.
Actually, I know quite a lot about this man. Allow me to utterly destroy your argument with the power of logic. I'll let you go first....
~He was born in the early 1500's
True enough....
~He saw the French Revolution
No, he did not. He vaguely mentions in his prophecies (as is his style, conveniently) that turmoil will happen to a Queen and her people will rise up. You could apply this to a myriad of things. Maybe it is about Margaret Thatcher and the working class hating her for her policies. Maybe it is about Sarah Palin being unpopular in the media. Maybe it means nothing, and that's the best one.
~He saw Napoleon Bonaparte
No, he did not. He says a king will be born near Italy, and will cost his empire dearly. He does not ever use the name Napoleon. No does he specify. This could be used to foretell a king losing a war, maybe the pope will do something stupid, maybe a kingdom will be overthrone. Hardly a specific foresight into the events of history.
~He saw Adolf Hitler, and even called him out by name!
No, he did not. He mentions a man named HISTER. That is all. And this is also the latin name for the Danube river. Of course, will a little wordplay, you could make it say Hitler. Although it also could be changed into many, many, MANY other words and names. I must say, your so-called prophet is leaving me unimpressed so far....
~He saw the discovery of the new world!
Hmmm. Seems to me that a man from the 1500's who "sees" a "new world" when it's historically proven that vikings had already visited said world as early as the 12th century is a little late to the party. He never foretells a "new world", he mentions a "great, new city" -- which was referring to Naples.
~He saw nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
No, he did not. He writes of a "wall of fire" in a couple quatrains. This could also refer to the Great Chicago fire, the bombing of London during WWII, maybe he was thinking of the sacking of Rome. Maybe he saw a meteor striking the earth. Maybe his neighbor left his toaster on. Or maybe he was writing of a very vague event taking place in a vague time period, in an extremely vague manner, which he was.
~He saw the Apollo moon landings
No, he did not. He mentions men traveling to the corner of "Luna", which is also a name used for the Moon in some languages. However, he also mentions that those who go there will be "captured" and put "in a strange land" and that there will be a "great scandal" -- none of which happened. And the moon has no corners, it's spherical in shape (in case you didn't know). Many scientists and philosophers dreamed of one day going to the moon. Was 2001: A Space Odyssey some kind of prophecy? NO!
~He saw the death of Diana, Princess of Wales
No, he did not. He mentions that a woman named Diana will be put to rest. So he says a woman named Diana will die. Then again, EVERYONE DIES EVENTUALLY. If I told you that you be will hungry soon, that is not a prediction or prophecy, that is seeing events that MUST happen because they are part of how the human world operates. He does not say anything of a vehicular accident, or a group of men with flashing lights staring over her body. He says a woman named Diana will die, and some people will feel bad -- things that everyone named Diana is guaranteed to go through.
~He saw the Space shuttle Challenger disaster
No, he did not. He mentions that Nine people will be sent away and die, even though seven astronauts were aboard, not nine. So he was wrong there. He says their fate will be sealed on departure --again, this could mean anything. Nowhere does he say anything of a flying machine, an explosion, space, or a date. He says nine people will try to go somewhere and then die early on. Maybe he was talking about the Lord of the Rings movies? Huh, I didn't know Nostradamus was a movie buff.
~He possible saw the events of 9/11 while debates about this go on, he did nail the location
No, he did not. This was an interent hoax that some college kid made up to scare people. There is not an ounce of truth to this one.
The countless books written about Nostradamus went on to serve as the basis for Orson Welles' celebrated film The Man Who Saw Tomorrow (1980). After that video, Nastradoumous gained a huge following and many more videos have since been made.
Look it up
I have. And I will tell you that you are 100% wrong. Nostradamus never once, in any of his "prophecies", specifically names any events or people. He uses excessive amounts of symbolism and vagaries in order to make his writings more marketable. People are attracted to catastrophe and ruin, that's why films like "2012" and "Armageddon" are so popular. It is not prophetic to claim events will happen that are going to happen regardless. If I wrote a prophecy saying an Asian empire will soon fight a war with a former ally, you would say I am foretelling some kind of Chinese-American war. Then again, this could also refer to WWII, when Japan went to war with us, despite being a former ally. Maybe I am referring to Afghanistan (which is technically in Asia) being a harbor for terrorists. Or maybe I am referring to Russia (being mostly in Asia) being involved in a cold war with us for 50 years. Do you see, now? It is not psychic to say you see events happening with no details into those events. I would not be a prophet for saying you will face monetary trouble in the future, because odds are, at some point in your life you will. Bad things happen, you don't need a nutcase with a long beard to tell you that.
And of course, people have a very good way of ignoring the times when he is completely wrong and off-base and incorrect. Nostradamus wrote something around a THOUSAND of these prophecies. How many events has he been claimed to have foreseen? A couple dozen. Well that is pretty low, if you ask me. Low enough to ensure that atleast a few of his writings would be connected to events that take place.
Truth be told, he saw nothing. He was a crazy doctor who took up writing and sold a lot of copies. He was the Dan Brown of his age. And morons like you and the History Channel only continue this stupidity and foolishness. Why don't you think for one second and decide if you really believe this garbage. I bet you are also one of those people who thinks the Mayan calendar foretells the end of the world on December 21, 2012. Your wrong. Open your mind, friend, and you will see what this False Prophet is really worth.
Nothing. | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 7:05:26 PM | That was very well done, and I'm convinced. I think I'll even dump my fortune teller.
And unfortunately , it's even putting me on the fence with regard to Santa.
So, getting back to physics.....Why can't anyone be a theoretical physicist? I think sometimes, when you know something is impossible, it's impossible. I heard that somewhere or other.
Steven Hawking came out with a theory about 30 years ago, that made him famous, and now he contends, "I'm not sure". That puts us right back where we were, or at least pretty darn close.
If everything came from nothing, as some contend, then there should be something out there that is opposite in every way to a proton for instance. Instead of creating an explosion when fired at each other, (this particle and a proton), they would eliminate each other with a resultant zero mass and zero energy. Is there any theory out there on this? (This is a serious question. The Santa thing was, well........I still believe.) | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 8:32:03 PM | Re: False Profit
He saw Adolf Hitler, and even called him out by name! No, he did not. He mentions a man named HISTER. That is all. And this is also the latin name for the Danube river. Of course, will a little wordplay, you could make it say Hitler. Although it also could be changed into many, many, MANY other words and names. I must say, your so-called prophet is leaving me unimpressed so far....
VI / 49
By the project of Mammon, high priest,
They shall subjugate the borders of the Danube,
They shall pursue crosses of iron, topsy-turvy,
Slaves, gold, jewels, more than a hundred thousand rubles.
'Crosses of iron, topsy-turvy' is certainly a description of the Nazi Swastika. Hitler & his men also wore the Iron Cross. Subjugating the lands around the Danube was foreseen as well.
III / 35 Out of the deepest part of the west of Europe,
From poor people a young child shall be born,
Who with his tongue shall seduce many people,
His fame shall increase in the Eastern Kingdom.
He shall come to tyrannize the land.
He shall raise up a hatred that had long been dormant.
The child of Germany observes no law.
Cries, and tears, fire, blood, and battle.
Hitler was born in Austria& in poverty. With his powers of speech & mob-control, he seduced many. Hitler's influence was even felt in the Eastern Empire of Japan.
VIII / 71
The number of Astronomers shall grow so great,
Driven away, banished, books censured,
The year one thousand six hundred and and seven years by Glomes,
That none shall be secure in sacred places.
Nostrodamus dates all events starting with the Council of Nicaea; A.D. 325. With a given date, 325 must be added. 1607 + 325 = 1932. In January 1933, Hitler became Chancellor of Germany; banishing & burning books.
A captain of Germany shall come to yield himself by false hope,
So that his revolt shall cause great bloodshed.
Beasts wild with hunger will cross the rivers
The greater part of the battlefield will be against Hister.
A little off topic mind you, interesting none the less... If the man created this stuff out of his ass, I have to say... he has one hell of an amazing imagination. Lets see you name off a massive warlord that comes to power 400 years after your lifetime and get the spelling to all but one letter. | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 9:11:06 PM |
VI / 49
By the project of Mammon, high priest,
They shall subjugate the borders of the Danube,
They shall pursue crosses of iron, topsy-turvy,
Slaves, gold, jewels, more than a hundred thousand rubles.
'Crosses of iron, topsy-turvy' is certainly a description of the Nazi Swastika. Hitler & his men also wore the Iron Cross. Subjugating the lands around the Danube was foreseen as well.
Crosses of iron, topsy-turvy? Look up "Cross of Saint Peter". THAT is a "topsy-turvy" cross. A swastika is not a topsy-turvy cross. It is a cross hooked at all sides at 90 degress. I notice you conveniently ignored the name of Mammon, the phrase "high priest", and the statement referring to a 100,000 rubles. How nice of you to leave out all the items he got wrong, and focus on an incorrect statement referring to an upside-down cross!
III / 35 Out of the deepest part of the west of Europe,
From poor people a young child shall be born,
Who with his tongue shall seduce many people,
His fame shall increase in the Eastern Kingdom.
He shall come to tyrannize the land.
He shall raise up a hatred that had long been dormant.
The child of Germany observes no law.
Cries, and tears, fire, blood, and battle.
Hitler was born in Austria& in poverty. With his powers of speech & mob-control, he seduced many. Hitler's influence was even felt in the Eastern Empire of Japan.
Actually, Hitler was not born into poverty. He became poor later in life after WWI and upon being rejected as an artist. Also, he did not "observe no law". He was able to legally rise to power with the full consent of the Reichstag. And Nostradamus here mentions a war. How amazing, HE SAW A WAR! WOW! Do you know that in the entirety of human history, the world has been at a state of peace only 1% of the time. WAR IS ALWAYS HAPPENING. To predict it as useless as predicting the tides coming in.
All this quattrain says is that some one will come to power in Eastern Europe, then he says a child of Germany will ignore the law. He does not say these are the workings of the same man, you have played right into his hand by making connections that are, in truth, nonexistant.
VIII / 71
The number of Astronomers shall grow so great,
Driven away, banished, books censured,
The year one thousand six hundred and and seven years by Glomes,
That none shall be secure in sacred places.
Nostrodamus dates all events starting with the Council of Nicaea; A.D. 325. With a given date, 325 must be added. 1607 + 325 = 1932. In January 1933, Hitler became Chancellor of Germany; banishing & burning books.
So he didn't even get the year correct. What a loser. And you left no description of what this "Glomes" is.
A captain of Germany shall come to yield himself by false hope,
So that his revolt shall cause great bloodshed.
Beasts wild with hunger will cross the rivers
The greater part of the battlefield will be against Hister.
So a war will be fought against Germany, and here he mentions it taking place against the Danube River (which in Latin is 'hister') which is in Germany. So a war will be fought in Germany, against Germany? No dates. No names. No specific events. Nothing of significance. And there was no revolt, it was a rise to power over the course of a couple decades.
If I said in a prophecy of an American nation going overseas to destroy an enemy, do you know how many events could be applicable? Lets count:
War of the barbary Pirates
World War I
World War II
Korea
Vietnam
Grenada
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somalia
And every other event I forgot to mention...
Do you see? It means nothing to speak of a vague event happening without any details, especially when that event isn't even specified! He could also be referring to World War I in those poems, as well.
A little off topic mind you, interesting none the less... If the man created this stuff out of his ass, I have to say... he has one hell of an amazing imagination.
H.P. Lovecraft had one hell of an imagination, no one calls him a prophet. Yes, Nostradamus was a creative writer, nothing more. I think Nostradamus took what he saw in his world (his own son died of Plague) and wrote those down. He was bitter, jaded and full of anguish. He saw a world full of shit and believed it would never change. He was not a prophet, he was a misanthrope!
Lets see you name off a massive warlord that comes to power 400 years after your lifetime and get the spelling to all but one letter.
Fine. I predict that, sometime in the next 1000 years (don't forget to add 325 to any and all dates at prophetic convenience) a man by the name of Ryan (although we can edit that name upon convenience) will kill some other guy in a war. People will die, and some will not have clean water. Fire will rage unrelentingly.
Now let's just wait it out until something of similar concept happens, and you can all worship me as your new god. Don't forget to buy my new book, "I See Everything. By the Way, Your Fly is Open".
I win, you lose. Now can we please drop this shit and get back to real science and significance? | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 9:46:30 PM |
Steven Hawking came out with a theory about 30 years ago, that made him famous, and now he contends, "I'm not sure". That puts us right back where we were, or at least pretty darn close.
not at all. When a major scientist makes a controversial claim, it promotes creative thinking in other physicists in an attempt to disprove the claim. I assume you are speaking of Stephen Hawkings conjecture that information that goes into a black hole is lost. He was very likely wrong about this, it turns out. But by him making the claim, theoretical physics has taken many steps forward that it may not have taken otherwise. Hawkings claim singlehandedly led Leonard Susskind to show that black holes DO retain information, which directly led to the Holographic principle. Healthy disagreement amoung mutually respected colleagues is one of the most stimulating aspects in any field, and helps lead us closer to the truth. | |
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Posted: 11/2/2009 10:14:43 PM | Hawkings claim singlehandedly led Leonard Susskind to show that black holes DO retain information, which directly led to the Holographic principle.
And here's his lecture...
http://fora.tv/2008/07/23/Leonard_Susskind_-_The_Black_Hole_War
Healthy disagreement amoung mutually respected colleagues is one of the most stimulating aspects in any field, and helps lead us closer to the truth.
And might even lead to some interesting wagers such as those between Stephen Hawking and Kip Thorne. | |
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