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 Author Thread: Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
 SaharaM

Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 26
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 11:13:04 PM
There has been chat here about the beginnings of the returned salute (by RR.)

Here is a snippit from RR's book about how it evolved.



I never ceased to enjoy reviewing our men and women in uniform and hope I started a new tradition for presidents. As commander in chief, I discovered it was customary for our uniformed men and women to salute whenever they saw me. When I'd walk down the steps of a helicopter, for example, there was always a marine waiting there to salute me. I was told presidents weren't supposed to return salutes, so I didn't, but this made me feel a little uncomfortable. Normally, a person offering a salute waits until it is returned, then brings down his hand. Sometimes, I realized, the soldier, sailor, marine, or airman giving me a salute wasn't sure when he was supposed to lower his hand. Initially, I nodded and smiled and said hello and thought maybe that would bring down the hand, but usually it didn't. Finally, one night when Nancy and I were attending a concert at the Marine Corps headquarters, I told the commandant of marines, "I know it's customary for the president to receive these salutes, but I was once an officer and realize that you're not supposed to salute when you're in civilian clothes. I think there ought to be a regulation that the president could return a salute inasmuch as he is commander in chief and civilian clothes are his uniform." "Well, if you did return a salute," the general said, "I don't think anyone would say anything to you about it."


The next time I got a salute, I saluted back. A big grin came over the marine's face and down came his hand. From then on, I always returned salutes. When George Bush followed me into the White House, I encouraged him to keep up the tradition.

Courtesy of Simon and Schuster


http://www.ronaldreagan.com/tradition.html

If you're going to take issue with that, have at it. Personally, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to huff and puff about it.

I find it hard to believe that military personel (the human beings that they are) would take issue with the President returning their salutes.

I think this might fall into the catagory of needing to get over ourselves.
 nipoleon

Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 27
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 3:01:37 AM
Military personnel give each other salutes as a formalized greeting. It signifies the honor and privilege of being in the military. When a civilian gives a military salute, they are assuming a membership and status which they have no right to. It's unseemly and actually quite rude.

When military personnel salute the president, they are saluting the office of Commander in Chief not the particular man himself. He can wave, shake hands, say " Thanks soldier ", or whatever else he wants. But, for the president to return salutes is a breech of protocol.

The president is a civilian and not a member of the military. If the president is going to be a part of the military, then he needs to be issued a uniform befitting his rank. Do we want the president to wear a uniform ? Like a third world dictator ?
 SaharaM

Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 28
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 4:49:08 AM
When military personnel salute the president, they are saluting the office of Commander in Chief not the particular man himself. He can wave, shake hands, say " Thanks soldier ", or whatever else he wants. But, for the president to return salutes is a breech of protocol.
Protocols change and evolve, my friend. It's not the end of the world. In this case, it seems the protocol has changed to something that displeases you. That doesn't mean it hasn't changed.


The president is a civilian and not a member of the military. If the president is going to be a part of the military, then he needs to be issued a uniform befitting his rank. Do we want the president to wear a uniform ? Like a third world dictator ?
You're going overboard here. Evidently he doesn't have to be wear a uniform to salute the troops, because he has been doing it for close to 3 decades without one. Again, protocols change.


It's unseemly and actually quite rude.
You seem to keep amping up your description of the degree of inappropriateness every time you post. I don't think that's going to influence anyone else's opinion. In any event, I believe you to be in the very small minority with this opinion. Luckily, it seems very likely that the President will never salute you. So we're all good.
 SaharaM

Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 29
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 4:50:50 AM
Sorry, double post.
 SaharaM

Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 30
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 4:51:03 AM
Yikes! Triple post! What the heck?
 Strings6

Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 31
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:01:46 AM
Good to see Americans with their priorities in order.
 Outsideofthemiddle

Joined: 10/6/2009
Msg: 32
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:27:43 PM
Military personnel give each other salutes as a formalized greeting. It signifies the honor and privilege of being in the military.


Did you read that shit out of a recruitment pamphlet or something? Enlisted have to salute officers, sign of respect, even if the useless piece of shit is better of with a granade shoved up his ass. Saluting is a required thing, under certain circumstances, that an enlisted does to an officer. Enlisted don't salute each other. And quite frankly...what the hell does it matter if the big O wants to return a salute, there isn't really anything that says he can't. Jesus frickin christ, the things some people get their panties in a twist over. I'm in agreance with the below qoete.


Good to see Americans with their priorities in order.


What's next, discussing which hand the O-man wipes his ass with? How about what side of his body does he sleep on, or does he sleep on his back? Yup, critical shit right there.
 CassaGo

Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 33
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:41:21 PM
Here is something I found at the Hauenstein Center site (snippets):

What is the protocol presidents should follow when they salute?
Since presidents are the commander in chief, they are at the top of the chain of command and therefore do not have to initiate a salute. They are only expected to return a salute initiated by someone down the chain of command.

You should salute the flag when it is 6 paces away and approaching, and hold the salute for 6 paces after it passes.
===============
This does NOT say that they CANNOT initiate a salute out of respect for their troops, if they so choose. Has nothing to do with being "commissioned" in the military. In fact, many men who are no longer commissioned--so are civilians--would be surprised to hear that some people out there think they shouldn't be "allowed" to salute.
 jed456

Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 34
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:08:35 PM

Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?


Yes it is a sign of respect.It's amazing even this has become a political issue on here.Imho its sad really.
 nipoleon

Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 35
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:23:32 PM
This is an excerpt from an article by Garry Wills, in the NY Times from 2007.


The glorification of the president as a war leader is registered in numerous and substantial executive aggrandizements; but it is symbolized in other ways that, while small in themselves, dispose the citizenry to accept those aggrandizements. We are reminded, for instance, of the expanded commander in chief status every time a modern president gets off the White House helicopter and returns the salute of marines.

That is an innovation that was begun by Ronald Reagan. Dwight Eisenhower, a real general, knew that the salute is for the uniform, and as president he was not wearing one. An exchange of salutes was out of order. (George Bush came as close as he could to wearing a uniform while president when he landed on the telegenic aircraft carrier in an Air Force flight jacket).

We used to take pride in civilian leadership of the military under the Constitution, a principle that George Washington embraced when he avoided military symbols at Mount Vernon. We are not led — or were not in the past — by caudillos.

Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan’s prescient last book, “Secrecy,” traced the ever-faster-growing secrecy of our government and said that it strikes at the very essence of democracy — accountability of representatives to the people. How can the people hold their representatives to account if they are denied knowledge of what they are doing? Wartime and war analogies are embraced because these justify the secrecy. The representative is accountable to citizens. Soldiers are accountable to their officer. The dynamics are different, and to blend them is to undermine the basic principles of our Constitution.


Garry Wills, a professor emeritus of history at Northwestern, is the author, most recently, of “What Paul Meant.”
 imalwayssmiling

Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 36
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:07:38 PM
Who is higher than a General.The President,he's the Commander,A uniform was never made for this title,there for he is in uniform,he has no standard issue.I completely disagree with your argument,you think he has to be in a military uniform or he is not leader of the free world.What branch of all the services should he represent,there probably lies the problem.Every person that brought up the uniform issue to Ceasar was fed to the lions.I'm sure he looked at them like "are you kidding me".

Me thinks you just don't like Obama,me thinks thats the root of this problem ! Just sayin !
 Raine1961

Joined: 8/11/2009
Msg: 37
Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:30:33 PM
Obama can give them all the finger. Who really cares????
 Fort Garry Dark

Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 38
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:35:32 PM

At public events , the president should show respect like any other civilian by placing a hand over his heart.


Wow. You Americans sure like to have a lot of protocol for hand signals.

He's Commander in Chief and should salute whomever he wants to. Any old trooper would be worthy.

Stop the wars.
 skoochie

Joined: 4/29/2008
Msg: 39
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:14:54 PM
Yes he should return a salute. It is protocol to salute your superiors, which he is. A salute must be initiated by the suborddinate and not dropped until the superior raises and drops his salute. It's only respectful to return the salute and allow the subordinate to drop his salute.
To not return the salute is like leaving a guy hanging when he is giving you a high five.
 whothehellknows

Joined: 7/23/2006
Msg: 40
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 9:24:54 PM
Like the above poster mentioned, Obama does not slaute, he returns the salute of his subordinates. It's a respectful thing to do.

If he did not return the salute many of the same people upset over him doing it now would be bashing him for being so arrogant to not return salutes.
 Krebby2001

Joined: 6/12/2007
Msg: 41
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:27:48 PM
OP

As long as he effectively deals with the current financial melt-down, something that he inherited, the Prez can salute the military, Fire Department, New York, or "high five" it with the Philadelphia Phillies, or greet anybody else whatever dang way he pleases, so long as it's not derogatory, and I don't think that he means anything but respect by saluting members of the Military. In the greater scheme of things, how important is this?
Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/5/2009 5:35:35 AM
The Colonials do have a problem with etiquette and should draw from example set by HM Elizabeth II.

The salute originates from days of olde when suits of armour were worn. A knight would raise his fighting hand (right hand) showing he bore no arms and raise his visor to reveal his face hence the salute.

As Commander in Chief, HM only salutes when wearing uniform and bows her head when wearing civilian attire.

Since the office of President does not have a Commander in Chief uniform, the President should bow and not salute.

Hope this clears the matter up chaps....
 WindRoper

Joined: 7/24/2007
Msg: 43
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:56:06 AM

The proper way for civilians to display respect to the flag or the military is to place a hand over the heart.


Actually, that's the standard way to render the pledge of allegiance. The proper way to display respect for the flag or military is to shut up and stand up.
 dancecard

Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 44
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/5/2009 4:32:12 PM
Well~ hmm?

As President ~ he can do just about anything that he wishes.

There is certain respect render and certain respect to be returned.

NO one sets ~ when the president enters a room. ~ In doors. Everyone stands.

outdoors it's different. ~ It much like noncom working as a detail ~ The ranking noncom comes to attention and salutes the officer and holds the salute until which time it is returned or ordered "at easy "or "stand down" or " as you were" and returned~ The whole work detail does not come to "attention" by keeps working unless addressed personally.

and yes, for the Queen or King or even a President ~ a nod is most exceptable , it an acknowledgement , I see you! I accept you.

To return a salute is required but a ranking officer can and sometimes does lock a trooper up in this position. ~ For a salute is done from an "attention" position. ~ You not suppose to move ~ I know this is kinda confusing ~ but there is things than can and can't be done from any one position. Example ; from "shoulder arms" or "ready arms" you can turn and march ~ from trail arms you can't.

In any case ~ for a President to salute an office allows the officer to return to the position of "attention" leaving both arms fee and relaxed at his side. To not return the salute requires the soldier to hold the salute until the President has left the area.

I hope this confuses you as much as it did me ~ it a small part of becoming a soldier that takes some getting use to but in time you get use to it and it becomes a natural thing.

Like a solider wearing headgear indoors. They don't do it ~ unless they are armed.

and when ever in doubt ~ always salute and cover your ass.

Once you get to a combat zone ~ this all relaxes ~ especially in the field.

Myself and two buddies found Abrams jeep down on Canal street in Siagon one afternoon. A place it should never had been ~the driver was getting a little tail,
so we Precured it and got several salutes as we dove it back to base camp. ~ I had always wanted a fresh new jeep with spit shined tires. ( mine had holes in it and a grawling rear end) ~ all those stars came off quickly and a little paint touch up~ and I dove her until I left country and then turn her over to Jim ~ etts who took my slot. ~ It was fun to be saluted for a change and salute back. I don't blame the President for getting into the role.

Dance
 wonderingsole

Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 45
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:44:53 PM
I hardly think the president takes adump without being briefed beforehand so it would make sense that someone may have given him some advice before this event.
From what I gasthered he was hoping for this to remain fairly low key but made cnn anyways.
Not being a military guy, I would think it was his way of showing respect to those fallen men and also by being there at nighttime was even more respectful instead of having the flight told to arrive during the day so it could be a bigger photo op.

This man has inherited an ongoing war and is now being pulled in two directions. One of these directions would mean more planes coming home with body bags and the other could result in an ugly mess involving some big players, namely pakistan and regrouped taliban. Just how bad do we need that oil over there anyway?
 killene

Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 46
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/5/2009 9:03:30 PM
Reagan was the first President who hadn't actually served (he was an anti-War demonstrator during WW1) since....I'm counting back, but I think either Hoover or Coolidge. So, partly out of ignorance, and partly to mask that, he started the practice.



Looks like we have a bit of a comflict with some history about President Reagan.


After completing fourteen home-study Army Extension Courses, Reagan enlisted in the Army Enlisted Reserve[26] on April 29, 1937, as a private assigned to Troop B, 322nd Cavalry at Des Moines, Iowa.[27] He was appointed Second Lieutenant in the Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry on May 25, 1937, and on June 18 was assigned to the 323rd Cavalry.[28] His service number was 0 357 403.

Reagan was ordered to active duty for the first time on April 18, 1942. Due to his nearsightedness, he was classified for limited service only, which excluded him from serving overseas.[29] His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation at Fort Mason, California, as a liaison officer of the Port and Transportation Office.[30] Upon the approval of the Army Air Force (AAF), he applied for a transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF on May 15, 1942, and was assigned to AAF Public Relations and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit (officially, the "18th AAF Base Unit") in Culver City, California.[30] On January 14, 1943 he was promoted to First Lieutenant and was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of This Is The Army at Burbank, California.[30] He returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit after completing this duty and was promoted to Captain on July 22, 1943.[27]

In January 1944, Captain Reagan was ordered to temporary duty in New York City to participate in the opening of the sixth War Loan Drive. He was re-assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit on November 14, 1944, where he remained until the end of World War II.[27] He was recommended for promotion to Major on February 2, 1945, but this recommendation was disapproved on July 17 of that year.[31] He returned to Fort MacArthur, California, where he was separated from active duty on December 9, 1945.[31] By the end of the war, his units had produced some 400 training films for the AAF.[27]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#Military_service


http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/military.html


The president of our country should be saluted as he is technically the Commander in Chief of all Armed Services.

Would be nice if the Commander in Chief could be more decisive about the men who are fighting for our country though.
 valenciacityx

Joined: 3/10/2009
Msg: 47
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:58:42 AM
show of hands, how many of y'all did any time in uniform?
If you did you would know the answer to this. Being in Uniform, you are Required to salute him, and you are required to hold your salute until it is returned. Its a very formal protocal in the UCMJ. The junior service member shall render hand salute, unless under arms, to all officers superior. If officers of the same rank, then hand salute will be rendered in fashion with in walking distance with in reasonable time. Failure to salute is an article offense that will get you standing in front of a courts martial.

If you are in uniform, try it sometime, you will find out very quickly, you are on the wrong side of that arguement.
 WantaSmart1

Joined: 8/18/2008
Msg: 48
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/6/2009 5:10:55 AM

Reagan was the first President who hadn't actually served (he was an anti-War demonstrator during WW1) since...

If you'd actually read the sentence - he was the first that hadn't served since Hoover or Coolidge (I think Hoover). And yes, or no depending - Reagan never served in the military. He was of age during WW1, but demonstrated instead...


Sorry, I cannot let these two statements pass without pointing something out:

1) Reagan was born in February of 1911.

2) World War I took place between 1914 and 1918.

Since he was 3-7 years old, obviously he was NOT of age as claimed, and if he was actually able to comprehend what an anti-war demonstrator was, much less a war, he must have been very advanced for his age. To add to that the claim he did not serve in the military is even more ridiculous and obviously from a seriously flawed information source. I'd ALWAYS heard that he served as a Captain in the Army Air Corps - the precursor to the Air Force.
 imalwayssmiling

Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 49
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:09:10 AM
People fly in here with unsubstantiated facts,here's Ronnies Military service

After completing fourteen home-study Army Extension Courses, Reagan enlisted in the Army Enlisted Reserve[26] on April 29, 1937, as a private assigned to Troop B, 322nd Cavalry at Des Moines, Iowa.[27] He was appointed Second Lieutenant in the Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry on May 25, 1937, and on June 18 was assigned to the 323rd Cavalry.[28] His service number was 0 357 403.

Reagan was ordered to active duty for the first time on April 18, 1942. Due to his nearsightedness, he was classified for limited service only, which excluded him from serving overseas.[29] His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation at Fort Mason, California, as a liaison officer of the Port and Transportation Office.[30] Upon the approval of the Army Air Force (AAF), he applied for a transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF on May 15, 1942, and was assigned to AAF Public Relations and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit (officially, the "18th AAF Base Unit") in Culver City, California.[30] On January 14, 1943 he was promoted to First Lieutenant and was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of This Is The Army at Burbank, California.[30] He returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit after completing this duty and was promoted to Captain on July 22, 1943.[27]

In January 1944, Captain Reagan was ordered to temporary duty in New York City to participate in the opening of the sixth War Loan Drive. He was re-assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit on November 14, 1944, where he remained until the end of World War II.[27] He was recommended for promotion to Major on February 2, 1945, but this recommendation was disapproved on July 17 of that year.[31] He returned to Fort MacArthur, California, where he was separated from active duty on December 9, 1945.[31] By the end of the war, his units had produced some 400 training films for the AAF.[27]
 killene

Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 50
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Should the President render salutes to military personnel ?
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:19:52 AM
Msg 5
Reagan was the first President who hadn't actually served (he was an anti-War demonstrator during WW1) since....I'm counting back, but I think either Hoover or Coolidge. So, partly out of ignorance, and partly to mask that, he started the practice.

msg 9
If you'd actually read the sentence - he was the first that hadn't served since Hoover or Coolidge (I think Hoover). And yes, or no depending - Reagan never served in the military. He was of age during WW1, but demonstrated instead.


Interesting how American History can get distorted. President Reagan was born in 1911 and WW I started in 1914. That means that President Reagan was a bit young for WWI, even to protest.

As pointed out earlier President Reagan was a Captain during WWII...Seems many do believe Reagan was the one who initiated it after seeking advice.


Presidents have long been saluted, but they began returning salutes relatively recently. Ronald Reagan was thought to be the first. He had sought advice on the matter from Gen. Robert Barrow, commandant of the Marine Corps. According to John Kline, then Reagan's military aide and today a member of Congress from Minnesota, Barrow told the president that as commander in chief he could salute anybody he wished.http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/68754022.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUsZ


Remember the president is the Commander in Chief.
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