| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 8:36:35 AM | I didn't realize there was so much research going on related to water. Ths is a brief synopsis of some things that most people probably don't know about water - http://www.i-sis.org.uk/IsWaterSpecial.php
And here is an entire issue of Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society deoted to current research on water - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/issues/138340/ The concluding discussion debates if water is essential for life.
BTW, Dreams, there have been distribution systems for other explosive gases for almost 2 centuries - since Paris adopted gas street lighting in the early 18th century. Gas storage tanks were a part of the skyline of every town, even 50 years ago and some still stand unused since the advent of natural gas. Hydrogen doesn't really explode - it burns - as you can see from the video footage of the Hindenburg disater available if you search. It also requires a leak, or damage to the container to create a problem. A low pressure system would solve a number of the hydrogen-related problems, including fallout from the expansion of a high pressure gas storage facility. Probably less than the current risks for storing propane. | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:08:27 AM | Quietjohn:
A low pressure system would solve a number of the hydrogen-related problems, including fallout from the expansion of a high pressure gas storage facility. Probably less than the current risks for storing propane.
"Hydrogen embrittlement." | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:46:00 AM |
Hydrogen doesn't really explode - it burns
Sure sounded and acted like an explosion to me and the rest of the people in my city last week when the hydrogen tank blew down at the industrial plant. I am almost 10 miles away and it rattled my windows and was pretty damn loud. That was just a small tank of it.. not sure of the exact numbers and have not looked up the specifics it was on the 6th around 3am here in Saint Joseph Missouri the AGP plant.
Im thinking it maybe was something to do with pressure vrs non pressurized hydrogen | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 11:10:31 AM | Compounds can be broken down into into their constituent parts...ah elements my dear sir..rolls eyeballs
tis the hydrogen bonds sire regaling in their own majesty...most likely..as many of us in the know know.
as for the why do we have a car that does 40 mpg in europe and 25mpg in the US...I concede your point :)..and most likely hath to dowith clearly evil conglomerates......I mean think about it even that so called recent ad of late regarding oil from algae ..from that well known company as the greedy carpetbaggers seek to maintain the status quo
IMO you can be rest assured any decnet patterns, eg mcreggor water car patents exist but for a fleeting existence on line in time | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 11:16:44 AM | In my earlier thought i mentioned that water heaters were a huge drain on the grid. In another thread i discussed a possible method of replacing the current grid of copper transmission lines with an adjustable wire using magnetic containment which the by product is heat. Well if the water cooled system for the magnetic containment was thought a little differently then you could pipe 2 utilities of service through the same conduit and also rid homes of water heaters. The energy transformed into heat energy in order to cool the electromagnents could be used as a way to provide residents with HOT water. No further water heater needed or maybe just a boost in temp heater.
The cooling system would need to get rid of the hot water and replace it with cooled water. instead of PAYING to cool that water down when so man people pay just to heat their water you can instead sell them the water already hot and ready for use. So cooling the system yields a profit instead of a deficit.
There is more benefits to the system as well ;) but proof of concept is not done being thought of.
EDIT* Remember the old water boiler heating systems? sounds like a good way to disipate heat while providing warmth and comfort to your customers using the utilities. This way though the boilers are removed from the systems. What else could also be sent through the lines just by organizing the electrons? :wink: | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 12:12:56 PM | "Hydrogen embrittlement." Ya, Wikipedia heard of that too. "However, commercially workable and safe technology exists globally in the hydrogen industry, which produces some 50 million metric tons per year.......
Steel with an ultimate tensile strength of less than 1000 MPa or hardness of less than 30 HRC are not generally considered susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement. (Jewett et al.)"
If Wikipedia doesn't work for you, other sources are available.... .eg., Hydrogen embrittlement: prevention and control By Louis Raymond. There are some clever folks around who don't let scary words like embrittlement put them off doing what has to be done.
Then, of course, there is the experience of the folks who have been running hydrogen pipelines for the past 70+ years .....
Pipeline transmission of hydrogen dates back to late 1930s. These pipelines have generally operated at less than 1,000 pounds per square inch (psi), with a good safety record. Estimates of the existing hydrogen transmission system in the United States range from about 450 to 800 miles. From http://corridoreis.anl.gov/documents/docs/technical/APT_61012_EVS_TM_08_2.pdf. That's from the Argonne National Laboratories.
Dreams, the exploding tank was liquid hydrogen which would boil and mix rapidly with air. Especially if gallons of it dumped on the ground. Even so, it didn't seem to damage the surrounding tanks. | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 12:29:28 PM | There are some clever folks around who don't let scary words like embrittlement put them off doing what has to be done.
 So true some think of ways to solve many problems with the same application of technology. like running a pipline from a central point out in strait lines in 8 different direction to use to pipe water, hot water, electricity (which can be used to break apart the hydrogen within the transit system used to generate the power sent through it) all within one system which can then be taken apart at sub stations at the end of the lines.
Big projects that take many years to develop and many more to build and come online but when thinking about things like how fast computers advance and thinking about what the grids power requirement may be 10-20-50 years down the road means SOME of us would rather develop a new way to transport and generate those increased needs now due to the long time frames it takes to perfect a new technology. given the amount of high powered lines running through our neiborhoods now means since there is only so much you can push through copper lines they would need to be adding a large amount of transmission lines to compensate unless the technology used to transport it is altered to something more advanced.
just my thoughts and opinions
EDIT* We have been doing things the same way for a century like said once before.
Myself and many other are of the same thoughts that progress can not go any further until the restrictions and detriments of the core requirements are addressed and altered and corrected.
In linking topics together... There is NO point in all in trying to discover that new energy source like they are trying to do with things like the LHC if they have no way to contain it and transport, or disapate that energy once found.
Analogy time. If you know you are going to find 1000 tons of gold at a dig site then you don't bring a 1/2 ton pickup truck to retrieve it.
Power and energy can work the same way. If you dig a hole having any clue of the amount that would be found you would likely make sure you have enough heavy equipment on site to transport it. | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 1:28:58 PM | Hydrogen vehicles are not common because the fuel needs to be highly compressed in specialized vessels and needs four times larger tanks than gas.
While hydrogen can be released from water it takes a lot less energy to derive it from methane.
It sounds like you're suggesting that a vehicle could have a tank full of water, use electrolysis to free the hydrogen, burn the hydrogen then use the power to run the vehicle. Freeing the hydrogen from water would need more energy than is transferred to the road as power from hydrogen burning.
The draw for hydrogen vehicles is that they can be very green, producing mostly just pure water, with maybe a little bit of peroxide. However they're not very efficient from a "well to wheels" perspective. | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 2:07:58 PM | | Great idea and all, however (and this is just a rough guestimate) it takes much more electrical power to separate hydrogen and oxygen than you get from burning the two. | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 2:31:12 PM |
Great idea and all, however (and this is just a rough guestimate) it takes much more electrical power to separate hydrogen and oxygen than you get from burning the two.
True, but this was not meant to contain all its own power but instead mostly just act as a conduit that ASSITS in powering itself and makes up for the rest of the energy cost by utilizing the losses in the system for other purposes.
It costs energy to transport energy. The system now ALSO costs energy just to transport it. It is lost in the form of heat which that heat coming off the current power lines is wasted energy... with this system it is harnesing that energy that would normally be wasted to use it as a cooling system as well as a hot water supply system so the benefits outweigh the detriments when compaired to the current system.
The cost issue are also a balanced effect. Right now the grid has no way to grow in usage unless they add more lines.... like in the summer months when everyone turns on their AC all at the same time and a brownout happens or worse a blackout because the end users attempted to pull more power than the wires were capable of transmitting...
The system i talked about in the other thread can increase in size automatically to compensate so as a result it is better suited for future demands increasing like when the computer systems get more advanced and more widly used requiring all those electrons to come from somewhere.
So if it is NOT address now when everyone turns their computers on we will have the same effect as when we now turn on AC units.
Because all the water heaters were removed from the usage and instead were replaced by water already hot then you have removed existing usage at the same time as increasing capacity and at the same time the result would allow for increased loads to be used in more advanced technology that requires more power due to being more complex in nature.
yes i know it looked like i was explaining that it would be self contained but i think one thing at a time... you ned to be able to transport what is currently used better and more efficient before you worry so much about more advanced production.
In my opinions at least | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 7:39:25 PM | You CANNOT get more energy from seperating hydrogen and oxygen from water than the amout of energy used to seperate them. Simple thermaldynamics tells you this.
Fuel cells are not and can never be 100% efficient at converting the potential energy of hydrogen and oxygen into electricity...NOTHING can. Fuel cells produce waste heat...that is some of the potential energy is converted into heat energy rather than electric energy.
So you spend X amount of energy seperateing hydrogen and oxygen from water (some of this energy spent (say 10%) will be converted into waste heat). Then useing hydrogen and oxygen in the fuel cell converting it into electricity (only about 90% efficient at this currently...the other 10% is waste heat). And then useing the electricty to drive an electric motor (about 90% efficient (and this is WAY more efficient than reciprocateing and turbine engines converting energy into mechanical motion), the rest turns to waste heat). So if you put 100watts into this process at MOST you will get some 73watts (100 * 90% * 90% * 90%) driveing the car wheels and some 27watts of waste heat. You cannot get something for nothing, this is basic conservation of energy and the first law of thermaldynamics in action. | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 8:06:55 PM | OP, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Utilizing waste heat from furnaces isn't uncommon.
Also the grid is already setup so it can be dynamically reconfigured to support new loads and new power sources as demand requires. Power doesn't go to a large city from just one line. If a city gets a heatwave power can be routed from far away to compensate. Conversely it makes sense to shutdown power stations when loads are low. That's become sorta political and economically complex- the structure to pay power producers even when they're shutdown is evolving. That's needed as solar and wind power are brought online. It looks we'll have much more variable power cost to reward users for moving their power consumption to times of the day or year when power is plentiful.
As for using hot water from power generation to heat homes, while its likely going to happen it has issues. The savings aren't currently high enough to compensate for the increased complexity and danger of installing parasitic home systems. High pressure steam piping would need to go to each home from a fairly close power station. People would mess with the system, as they do with things in their home now - folk would scald themselves to death. The high pressure steam distribution network would be expensive to maintain. | |
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| The conciousness of water.
Posted: 11/10/2009 8:38:50 PM | Did you know that a drip is a bubble in reverse?
Wow man! Like just think about it.
A drip is a glob of water going DOWN surrounded by air - AND
A bubble is a glob of air going UP surrounded by water.
I came to that realization about thirty years ago - on my bathroom floor.
The tap was dripping in the sink and when enough water gathered in the loop under the sink it gurgled.
I rushed to get a piece of paper and pencil to write this down before I forgot it.
I didn't want to lose that brilliant thought.
Then I passed out on the floor.
I hope this revelation wasn't too HEAVY. At the time I was a bit LIGHT headed.
Still gettin' flashes. Ha ha ha
Keep groovin'
D | |
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| Flying rocks are better
Posted: 11/12/2009 4:02:27 PM | Flying rocks already contain kinetic energy, so it would be a cinch to harvest this energy source for transportation. Simply put up a shield to collect the impacts and away you go.
If you really understood fuel cells you would know that your proposition is as silly as mine. | |
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