| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/1/2009 9:58:34 AM |
Protection From Predators: Should we be able to protect ourselves?
In Nova Scotia, Yes, carry a stick.
Here in Nova Scotia the problem is to the point that now we have had a fatality. In the Truro area, they are calling for a cull of coyotes because it is so bad.
You have a better chance of getting killed dancing with some guys wife at the "Old Mill" in Truro than from a coyote.
So let the hysteria begin.
Funny to watch but really sucks when it is in your own back yard.
The only thing I can see it has done is given people something to talk about.
I was in Cape Breton end of last week and it was the 1st thing that came out of everyones mouth that you ran into.....shame about that hiker.... ,from the hotel clerk to the waiter and gas station attendant. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:04:30 AM | Should people be able to legally arm themselves for protection when traveling in the woods?
excuse me but thats a direct quote from the original post. I'm a little lost about how it does not have a bearing on carrying firearms.
bear - has to be very close to be dangerous
moron with high power rifle - can be well over a mile away.
I have no problem with firearms in legitimate places. my sister spends a good deal of deep winter far into the rockies. she should definitely have a gun with her. she's well trained and familiar with a rifle and far from almost any other humans.
however....
this immediately translates into some rambo wannabe wandering around in the woods near my house in suburban pennsylvania blowing holes in all and sundry.
hell, its hunting season around here right now. its worth your life to try to take a walk in the wood three miles from town. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:07:36 AM |
Oh..great idea! More people carrying guns in the woods. No chance for disaster there. 
People have been hiking in the wilderness for generations. Without carrying guns. Sometimes someone gets hurt or even killed. That is the chance they take. As far as homes encroaching on the habitat of wild animals, I am on the side of the animals. Get off their land and they won't bother you. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:11:56 AM | I feel for this girls family but yes women have the right to expect to safely walk the streets of any city but to expect to have that same right alone in the wilderness is a sign of stupidity. If she was that knowledgable about the wilderness she would know this but it seems that she may not have been able to see or hear signs of the animal.
Yes they have migrated to the west only as result of having little elsewhere to go.
Tooshadows, perhaps the knowledge of everyone in Manitoba of the coyotes helps prevent mishaps. This girl was from Toronto and unfortunately thought this was no different than walking through a city park. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:20:50 AM |
<div class='quote'>Protection From Pedators Interesting title to this thread. The real, true predators are the humans who are encroaching on the habitat of the wild animals.
msg 30: Currently I live on land that has not been dwelt on by wild animals for a few centuries....However, I think my point is obvious. The sprawl of urban areas is seriously encroaching on the habitat of wild animals, they have no where to go and may end up in your back yard, munching on your garbage, or much worse, your cat or dog....I do not think it is appropriate to spread out so far that we eliminate the wild species....humans are not the only ones with a right to live on this planet. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:28:12 AM | In the Truro area, they are calling for a cull of coyotes because it is so bad.
I guess the coyotes beat them to it!
What a lot of people don't realize is that coyotes are not native to eastern Canada
What a lot of people don't realize is that Europeans are not native to eastern Canada.
Considering how many 'hunters' manage to kill and maim things they shouldn't, I suspect the coyote danger would fade into insignificance against the danger from armed 'hikers'.
Edit: - Pepper spray is reputed to work on all kinds of predators. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:41:58 AM | | Imene2....In other words the land has been cleared that was once habitat for wild animals,you were looking for a place to live so you moved there...in the future when others need a place to live it's too bad for them i guess | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:51:47 AM | Imene2....In other words the land has been cleared that was once habitat for wild animals,you were looking for a place to live so you moved there...in the future when others need a place to live it's too bad for them i guess What are you talking about....? This doesn't even make any sense. I live in the center of a huge city in Europe, a city that has been here for centuries. How do you get that I took the habitat away from wild creatures? Extrapolate much garbage from nothing do you?
Just because this land has not been habitat for generations does not change that fact. Centuries, not generations, centuries. And it most certainly does change the fact. How much common sense does it take to realize that we cannot continue to lap up all the land and all the natural environment. It is humans who will suffer most in the end. When all the humans die, the insects will continue to live and thrive. If all the insects die, the humans will die. They are far more resiliant than we are. We, as a species, are dependent on the web of life. You are welcome to move to a big city where there have not been wild animals for generations or centuries. Why do you need to take what land is left to them away from the animals?
And btw, I am a hiker and know I take a chance if I go into a wilderness area. Hiking alone and without any precautions is pretty dumb. I wouldn't do it. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/1/2009 10:52:10 AM | I believe this (from msg 18) referred to taking a gun to the mall. Whether or not I agree, I'll stick to the issue at hand and point out that the same concept shouldn't apply to going into the woods.
And how many shooting do you hear about in these malls where people are allowed to legally carry.
Several people have mentioned not going into the woods if you don't want to be attacked. Are these the same people that live locked in their homes and have their food delivered through a slot. Probably not either. But to not go into the woods is not a practical solution to the situation at hand. For people that work in the woods, solo woods travel is sometimes a necessity. For many others it is a source of sanity saving relaxation. Leading a healthy active lifestyle that includes use of woodland can and does improve health and prolong life.
That is the chance they take. As far as homes encroaching on the habitat of wild animals, I am on the side of the animals. Get off their land and they won't bother you.
This is a very safe position to take if you are not the one having two coyotes trying to tear you apart alive. You are also living on land that was theirs at one time too. Just because this land has not been habitat for generations does not change that fact.
This is for all of Canada, and the license is called an FAC.
It is actually called a Possession Acquisition License (PAL). And yes, in rural areas like of what you speak, people may not follow the letter of the law but they are at the same time respectful and safe with their firearms. If you know this area you know that there is nothing in the news in these areas because of gun crime.
This girl was from Toronto and unfortunately thought this was no different than walking through a city park.
This, sadly, was probably not far from the truth. Hopefully, if nothing else, this thread will promote being aware of the dangers of woods travel and help people prepare. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 11:15:31 AM | | Imene2...So all people can live in the middle of a huge city in Europe ? as usual it's always what somebody else is doing that is the problem,where they live,where they work ect etc...never what you do or where you live,or where you work.I suspect you probably think the world is overpopulated because of all of those"other" people being here. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/1/2009 11:20:49 AM | With all due respect without confirmation that the young lady was concious at the time I have my doubts as to whether or not this was an act of predation let alone an "attack."
As to guns and their effectiveness as a deterrent to animal attack: The woman could have made the choice to NOT hike alone. I do a lot of solo hiking but I'm not inexperienced and I'm probably twice the size this young lady was. I live in Grizzly Country. I carry bearspray and an airhorn. The Alaskan Department of Fish & Game did a statistical analysis that unequivocally showed bearspray is a far better deterrent against Grizzlies than a firearm. Think about it. A grizzly bear is on all fours charging you at thirty miles an hour. You have two vulnerable spots, the eyeballs. Are you that good a shot in that dramatic a situation? Really, think about it, please.
+1 on not giving into utterly unfounded hysteria. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/1/2009 11:24:09 AM |
And yes, in rural areas like of what you speak, people may not follow the letter of the law but they are at the same time respectful and safe with their firearms. If you know this area you know that there is nothing in the news in these areas because of gun crime. This is just the thing... it's not the people of that area normally that go hiking in the woods and are in need of protection against animals. The locals are aware of the dangers and hike at the times of day or in areas that are safe... tourists like the girl from Toronto are the ones that hike in unsafe conditions and are not aware of what to do in face of wildlife danger... it's those same tourists that bring along a six pack of beer because they're letting loose while on vacation. Or they're more skittish because they're not sure of the difference in the sound of a wild dog or a domestic dog barking or howling... My point is, when you institute a law that will enable people to carry weapons that are designed to maim or kill, then it's not surprising when there are dibilitating accidents. I've seen too many good ole boy accidents to believe that this is the correct course of action.
As for the animal deterrent that is sold at Canadian Tire... go to a hunting store, one that specializes in non-lethal alternatives for personal protection. The laws are very specific regarding the use and ownership of this substance, but it is a far better protection than a rifle. As a matter of fact, the University of Calgary had a study which showed that a person that used a firearm in defense against a grizzly was much more likely to be injured or killed than a person that used bear spray. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 11:24:21 AM |
Imene2...So all people can live in the middle of a huge city in Europe ? as usual it's always what somebody else is doing that is the problem,where they live,where they work ect etc...never what you do or where you live,or where you work.I suspect you probably think the world is overpopulated because of all of those"other" people being here. There is absolutely no logic in anything you have so far posted. It is pointless to respond. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 11:34:42 AM | | Logic ? your logic is that land should not be developed for people to live on because it destroys natural habitat,the peole living on that land deserve whatever they get in the way of a gruesome death | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 11:46:19 AM | | String, why are you picking on Ismene instead of focusing on the topic of the thread? Your off-topic posts are full of fallacies and getting tiresome. Ismene's point seems to be that animals don't just have a right to live, they are ESSENTIAL to life on earth. There are way too many dumb shits around who think that humans are the only important objects in existence. We've reached a point where just pushing animals aside doesn't work any more. And I don't think adding slaughter to that tactic will help much. I'm a diver and occasionally meet sharks. I don't expect any lamebrain social program to eradicate sharks from the ocean just so I can enjoy my recreation without being at risk. Nor do I carry a weapon to kill them. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 11:55:29 AM | My first post about taking guns to the mall was meant to say that we should not take guns to the wilderness with us. We have risks in many places. I feel that the risks in the city are higher and I prefer to deal with the wilderness risks.
If I it's my time to die than being a part of the natural cycle is not such a bad way to go, even if it means being eaten alive. Granted I have not yet experienced it. It is still less gruesome an image than what the human animals have done.
I hadn't thought of an air horn. Good Idea and I will check into that. I do carry a solid maple walking stick, but have only used it on pet dogs who were off leash. (Never had to hit one, but I have created a barrier with it and it has bite marks on it.) I also carry a cell phone for snake bite situations.
So far I have found that being aware and not forcing any issues has led to a peaceful outcome for all wild creatures I have encountered, including many coyotes, rattle snakes and a mountain lion. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:13:02 PM |
And btw, I am a hiker and know I take a chance if I go into a wilderness area. Hiking alone and without any precautions is pretty dumb. I wouldn't do it.
It is true that you should always prepare for a hike regardless of where or when you enter woodland.
Ismene2 you live in London. I have a home in Ratby up in the Midlands. When I enter the Markfield woods to travel the two miles to my step daughter's home in Groby, the only thing I have to worry about is squirrels, rabbits, badgers, and foxes. There are no predatory animals to worry about in England like we have here in North America. As dense and populated as England is, there are few areas that could come close to comparing to what I have here in Canada just out my back door.
Where you live in England and where I live here in Canada as well are two different worlds. I could see no reason to arm myself for a trip through the woods of England. England does not have a very good history when it come to ecological devastation in the name of accommodating population growth and the need to feed that population. Wether it was generations or centuries ago, you benefit from it. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:16:28 PM | Of course you have the right to protect yourself. Whether the government thinks so or not is irrelevant. The law does not change what is right and wrong. Of course, if you break the law, there are possible consequences, but hey. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Always been a gun-owner (okay, well, ever since I was 13 or so when I got my first .22, if we want to be all technical), and grew up in the country and shot countless snakes and whatnot. If there were bears, whatnot in my area (there were coyotes), I would be even more set on it.
I still feel that feral dogs pose a much greater threat to MOST joggers/whatnot though. As more and more unwanted dogs are dumped, we are seeing more and more joggers/children mauled by roving packs. However, the recipe remains the same. Shoot 'till slide-lock or the threat is stopped. Walk away/deal with whatever legislature you must deal with. You did good and will live to see another day.
People have their priorities all out of whack. Priority ONE is preservation of life/limb, yours and others. Priority two is freedom/quality of life. Worry about living through the encounter first and foremost. THEN worry about whether or not some pencil pushing weenie is going to get upset about you discharging a weapon w/in city limits or whatever they want to pin on you. Either way, it's better than your friends/family worrying about funeral expenses or how to cover all that reconstructive surgery.
I find it PATHETIC AND SAD that animal-shelters out number their human equivalency by 2:1 in America. That shows you just how skewed we are. Apparently, animals are 2x as important as humans, based on this. Totally pathetic.*
*This statistic from my psychology text book. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:20:41 PM | Sooo , You people are on the side of the wildlife and believe you all should stay out of the wildlifes habitat...
I'll go with that..
This is my LAND .. ,
I'm part of the native American wildlife...
Get off of my land and go back to where you came from.!!!!!!
We injuns ALWAYS carry something to protect ourselves whether in the woods or the cities..
Stupid people don't.!!!! | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:21:01 PM | | mavcomart: but I am from the Pacific NW, USA. I spent 51 years there and did lots of hiking in the mountains and wilderness areas, as well as cross country skiing, camping, etc. I have friends and relatives who have lived in and hiked in Alaska. I am with those who say 1) leave the wilderness be, and 2) take care when you hike in the wilderness...proper care, not toting a gun. I know people who have met brown bears when hiking and have avoided any problems. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:25:21 PM | Sooo , You people are on the side of the wildlife and believe you all should stay out of the wildlifes habitat...
I'll go with that..
This is my LAND .. ,
I'm part of the native American wildlife...
Get off of my land and go back to where you came from.!!!!!!
We injuns ALWAYS carry something to protect ourselves whether in the woods or the cities..
Stupid people don't.!!!!
I really don't have anything to say to you on this other than to agree.
I once saw a political cartoon where some mexican came into a store in America and started speaking spanish. The other character was "You came to this land. Speak our language. Dumbass. This is America, not Mexico. When you are here, speak the native language."
Another character tapped this character on the shoulder and then said something to them in another language. The character said "WTF is that!?" The reply that came back was "Navajo".
Funny, but very sobering and it did change my outlook on things.
mavcomart: but I am from the Pacific NW, USA. I spent 51 years there and did lots of hiking in the mountains and wilderness areas, as well as cross country skiing, camping, etc. I have friends and relatives who have lived in and hiked in Alaska. I am with those who say 1) leave the wilderness be, and 2) take care when you hike in the wilderness...proper care, not toting a gun. I know people who have met brown bears when hiking and have avoided any problems.
Ismene, I agree 100% with leaving wilderness alone, as in, don't kill a wild animal unless you have to, but sometimes...you have to. It may not happen every day, and it may not happen to YOU, but when it does happen. It is IMPERATIVE that you kill or be killed. Better to be prepaired to kill that bear and do ALL YOU CAN not to have to, than to not be able to if you need to.
I know/have done business with one guy in Alaska who works with wildlife/whatnot (game-warden comes to mind, but that is not his title). He carries a Benelli M4 with Brenneke's, or an 870 with the same. For bears. This guy loves the woods, etc, but he also loves the people (and himself) that he is sworn to protect. It is sad, but sometimes something has to die. Either you, someone else, or an animal. I will pick the animal every time. For example, my dog. I love my dog IMMENSELY! but if I saw him charging a small child and felt that he was intent on harming that child, I would shoot him without thinking twice. Innocent people>Animals. Notice I say innocent. If you are throwing sticks at the bear/breaking into my house where my dog can get at you, etc, well. You are a dumbass. The gene-pool thanks your decision. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:31:06 PM | | I grew up in the country we had bears, wild dogs and coyotes, if you go into the woods you never went alone and always carried a walking stick and sometimes with a rifle. Now you have other options that are far more effective such as bear spray and blowhorns, coyotes will scatter from the sound. My sister lives in a wooded area, they have coyotes come up to the house, loud sounds always scare them off. Coyotes and other species are thriving in urban environments, because natural habitat is being lost, they do what they have to do to survive. The problem isn't the responsible hunters, it's they ones who would use it as opportunity to play out their Rambo fantasies on living targets, that frightens me more than the animals do. We hear of hunting accidents more often than animal attacks and learned at a young age not to go near the woods during hunting season and yes we had a few stray shots hit our house. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:36:37 PM |
I find it PATHETIC AND SAD that animal-shelters out number their human equivalency by 2:1 in America. That shows you just how skewed we are. Apparently, animals are 2x as important as humans, based on this. Totally pathetic.*
welcome to post-Reagan America. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/1/2009 12:36:44 PM | ^^ but horns and spray just don't give you the hit that a gun packs. You look silly swaggering with a horn and spray. And some folks who can't afford a sports car just need the testosterone!
This isn't about protecting yourself. It's about wanting a toy you're not supposed to have. | |
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