| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 6:11:29 PM |
I love firearms, I hunt and shoot all the time, but the last thing I want is frightened urbanites carrying a firearm while in the bush, not a good idea.  | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 6:26:58 PM |
But if I'm the one with gun power... then the "laws of nature" go out the window.
I have no problem with that. Any mountain man who is willing to stay behind with a dead animal on the ground is welcome to that AND the bear. I will quietly leave the scene and watch the "debate" from a safe distance. I'll burn a candle for him later.
Stay safe whatever you're doin' | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 6:28:07 PM |
I love firearms, I hunt and shoot all the time, but the last thing I want is frightened urbanites carrying a firearm while in the bush, not a good idea.
That's a thumbs up from me too. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 6:33:15 PM | I love firearms, I hunt and shoot all the time, but the last thing I want is frightened urbanites carrying a firearm while in the bush, not a good idea.
An uneducated person with a firearm is indeed a negative thing. I do think that some form of training should be mandatory to purchase a firearm. It should not be expensive, just the cost of the ammo + range time. Just to ensure that people SAFELY AND INTELLIGENTLY enjoy their rights. I am all for the right to own firearms, as you all know from my past posts, but I am also a fan of common sense as well. If you know nothing about a firearm. Get some training from a qualified individual. Period.
There is a test/skills demonstratio required to CCW, there should be one to own. No license or whatnot, just a voucher you bring to your dealer to pick up your firearm that they put on file for a year or 5 years or whatever. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 6:51:54 PM |
Get some training from a qualified individual. Period.
Boatswamper contributed an excellent posting. It was good to hear from someone who is active in the bush the way he is. He described losing kills to bears and also that he is a man of ethics not allowing the bears to be shot for it. It validates Chesire's earlier point about giving it up to the bear. But he does so taking the precaution of not letting his guard down.
His experience with bear spray certainly does validate its effectiveness. However, not everyone has access to it. He expresses concern about "frightened urbanites carrying a firearm" and I agree that this would not be good. jwg86 makes a great counter with his quote above. Training and demonstration of competence should be a prerequisite before a gun permit is issued, no question. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 7:01:06 PM |
Training and demonstration of competence should be a prerequisite before a gun permit is issued, no question.
We do not have "gun permits" in my part of the country (unless you are talking about hunting permits, expressly for a gun as opposed to bow or whatnot), nor do I think we should, I simply feel that to purchase a firearm there should be a competancy test required, nothing with a bunch of red-tape, just something equivalent to a hunters-safety course. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 7:22:14 PM |
We do not have "gun permits" in my part of the country
Here in this country you have to go through a lot to own a firearm. You have to take a hunter safety course, a firearms handling course, and testing for both. There are back round checks as well. I only have a possession license for my firearms. To purchase a new rifle, I would have to go through all of that to get a possession acquisition licence even though I already own and use firearms.
To own a hand gun, you must display competency, be a member of a registered range and that is the only place you may use or transport it to and from directly. All in the name of the utmost safety. It is hard to argue the necessity for these safety precautions even with such restrictions on use. Unfortunately the gangbanger crowd bypasses all of the red tape but that is another thread.
Safety is what it is all about and that is part and parcel of the theme of preparedness that this thread keeps highlighting. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 7:45:19 PM | I am not going to get involved in the gun issue
but I will share a couple things that people might want
to keep in mind when in the bush.
Animals have an amazing sence of smell , so
" walk with the wind to your back " if possible .
If they smell you , most animals will leave the area before you see them.
"Make noise " ...you dont want to startle an animal ,
carry a walking stick and let it drag behind you or swat at the brush from time to time,
give the animal a chance to know your coming.
If you encounter a animal ...NEVER run..unless its a skunk or something small.
Most animals will chase you if you run
soon as you start running you now become prey.
yes bears can run faster and longer then humans can ...so dont run.
talk quietly in a low voice and back away , hopefully it looses interest .
If attacked , then curl up in a ball with hands behind the head to protect the neck.
Black bears prefer dead animals instead of live humans ,
so hopefully some of this might come in handy.
If its a Grizz...well...forgett everything I said
They will eat you..your bear spray and your bear bells if it wants to.
Most animal attacks will come from the rear if they are stalking you .
If you notice a coyote/wolf/cat... in front of you
then see him behind you shortly afterwards..
prepare yourself for attack .
Try to get in a tree if possible and get yourself as comfortable as possible
you might be there awhile and need a secure limb that wont break in an hour.
You need to get at least 16-20 ft up , so make sure your tree selection is the right one .
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 8:45:59 PM | ^^^Twister knows the way^^^
If its a Grizz...well...forgett everything I said
They will eat you..your bear spray and your bear bells if it wants to. The one I sprayed ran away, but I thought I'd met may maker that day, that event made me seriously reconsider my line of work.
"Black bear shit is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear shit has bells in it and smells like pepper." | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 9:51:27 PM |
try some double aught buck blowing a hole in your house or a hunting arrow sticking out of an inside wall.
00 isn't going to blow a hole in the side of your house. One reason why shotguns are preferred for homedefense is they have very little risk of going through a wall and hitting someone on the other side when compared to a pistol or rifle. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/2/2009 9:54:31 PM | I really didn't read through this whole thread because it started to turn into the same old ignorant drivel by the anti-gun idiots. Hint...hint...guns are mechanical devices, just like cars and cells phones they take a human to operate.
I really can't believe folks are getting so goddamn worked up over some yotes. This is a freak accident, yotes are chicken shit 99.9% of the time. I would seriously like to here the full account of this story. This chick that got gobbled up sounds like another idiotic urban dweller, who knows nothing about the woods, that goes around preaching their love for nature and then goes and does something stupid...like that Tim Treadwell guy who got gobbled by a grizzly. For those of you who think a gun will stop a charging bear...well maybe, but I doupt most of us could shoot that acuratly that fast. Not to mention bears have been known to travel over 20 miles when shot fatally before they die. Certain guns might do the trick, but you still will need accuracy...otherwise file off your gun's sights and bring the KY Jelly so that it doesn't hurt as bad when the bear shoves that gun up your ass. I've been attacked once by a mother bear that was about 600lbs, I was acting like some stupid urban dweller by not paying attention when I hoped out of my truck. Essentially 10 feet from my truck I found myself between a small cub and it's very pissed of mamma, who was running full bore straight at me (I didn't even have time to piss or shit my pants), now I was carrying a S&W model 629 (44 mag.). Though in a split second I realized that gun, even as big and strong as it is, was not going to stop her...luckily I was close enouph to my truck to avoid being a statistic (the horn on the truck worked to deter her). Bear spray is really a joke. Most times that people championing it as a, "great non-leathal bear deterant", don't relized they probably only stopped a bear that was false charging (which most of these so called bear attacks are, a false charge. I've talked to guys who have seen it (bear sprey) fail. Also, how often does the wind blow, you do understand that you are blowing a mist into the air, don't you? Yes, it has happened.
To the Op, if carrying a gun makes you feel better, then do it. If bear sprey, some air horn or bells makes you feel better, then do that. Don't rely on what others tell you to carry for your comfort and piece of mind. I personally carry firearms wherever I go (in the mountains or on a rare trip into the urban jungle...especially to the urban jungle that place has exteamly ruthless animals), but I also live in a state that recognises that a free and law abiding citizen has the right to defend his/her own life. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:59:59 AM |
And since when is a coyote walking down the street mean your "directly confronted with death"? OH NO, it's coming right for us!!! (a reference to South Park, for those who have seen it)
Why not use an alternate means if your life isn't directly in danger? I have no problem with killing an animal if it's either him or me at that moment, but what makes you an expert on whether that animal is going to eat a child, or is just passing through? Just like every hiker that comes in view of a wolf/bear isn't attacked and eaten.
Again, you're missing the point. If the coyote/whatever is not "coming right for you," technically you're not being directly confronted with death (I thought that was pretty self explanatory. nice little twisting of what I said though). However, should the animal decide to attack you, you are now being directly confronted with death. And people who prefer to use the "by any other means possible" strategy will typically hesitate or balk when the situation actually does become dangerous and calls for action. This hesitation can and often does make the difference between life and death of the person being attacked. Their "if it's me or him, I'll do what I have to" mantra becomes an empty threat because there is too much faith being placed on not having to use it.
If you cannot fathom killing a wild animal in your presence in an uncontrolled environment, you will not be able to suddenly fathom it once it is attacking you. You will become much more concerned with your own survival at that point, but on some level you will still be concerned with “hurting” your attacker. The people that can truly kill when they have to are already prepared to do so even before it is necessary just in case the situation should call for it. The people that choose only to look for any and all other possible solutions at every chance will essentially rationalize away their own right to live when it comes time to take care of business. And most of them will not realize this until it happens.
And I'm not an expert on whether or not an animal is going to eat a child. But what I am is very well educated on human behavior and the learned tendency to rationalize away basic natural instincts such as those that exist for the purpose of survival. People are part of the animal kingdom. We all know this. And like many animals, we're designed to be able to kill to protect ourselves. But because most of us live in cushy environments where we are never really threatened by things, we rationalize away this instinct as being something ugly, wrong, and unnecessary. And as a result, when a situation calls for that instinct, we've forgotten how to use it. Compare that to people that live in the violence-ridden neighborhoods of many inner cities. They don't rationalize away the instinct to kill to protect themselves because they do not have that luxury. Their day to day environment is very much like the wild. If you cannot take care of yourself, you do not get taken care of. If you are not willing to kill when you are in danger, there is a good chance that you will be killed.
I don't promote senseless violence. But there is a huge difference between senseless violence and realizing and embracing healthy natural survival instincts. Most people in comfortable suburban life cannot tell the difference between the two.
Ultimately, every anti-gun or anti-self-defense argument always boils down to some glorified politicization of why the act of killing is "wrong." It's an elaborate subjective rationalization of why a natural human instinct is somehow a guilty thing to embrace. It's the same exact concept as the abstinence argument against sex. When people are not comfortable with elements of human nature, they find ways to convince others to suppress them in order to enjoy a little peace of mind. It's all silly, it's all counter-productive, and in the end, nature always wins. Because man's will is no match for nature's will. Nature created man. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/3/2009 4:41:06 AM |
Ultimately, every anti-gun or anti-self-defense argument always boils down to some glorified politicization of why the act of killing is "wrong." It's an elaborate subjective rationalization of why a natural human instinct is somehow a guilty thing to embrace. It's the same exact concept as the abstinence argument against sex. When people are not comfortable with elements of human nature, they find ways to convince others to suppress them in order to enjoy a little peace of mind. It's all silly, it's all counter-productive, and in the end, nature always wins. Because man's will is no match for nature's will. Nature created man.
This is a little disingenuous at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.
There is no right or wrong here; it's just opinion.
Not every opinion that is different from yours "boils down" to anything, and not every opinion differing from yours is "subjective rationalization of why the act of killing is "wrong." Nice try, though. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:26:05 AM |
The Alaskan Department of Fish & Game did a statistical analysis that unequivocally showed bearspray is a far better deterrent against Grizzlies than a firearm. Think about it. A grizzly bear is on all fours charging you at thirty miles an hour. You have two vulnerable spots, the eyeballs. Are you that good a shot in that dramatic a situation? Really, think about it, please.
Exactly. It's the same reason I quit going to the pistol range. When would I ever shoot somebody while looking down the sights of a handgun with two feet set and a smooth controlled trigger motion? Never. It's a waste of money and a good way to get lead poisoning (non-jacketed bullets indoors throw dust everywhere).
Handgun wounds for people have about a 5% fatality rate last I checked (suicides probably excluded - as they should be). The odds of getting a hit on a predator in full charge are small and the likelihood of it stopping them even smaller.
And two people does not make an epidemic. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:01:45 AM | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8339549.stm
Bear kills militants in Kashmir
By Altaf Hussain
BBC News, Srinagar
A bear killed two militants after discovering them in its den in Indian-administered Kashmir, police say.
Two other militants escaped, one of them badly wounded, after the attack in Kulgam district, south of Srinagar.
The militants were armed with AK-46s but were taken by surprise - police found the remains of pudding they had made to eat when the bear attacked.
It is thought to be the first such incident since Muslim separatists took up arms against Indian rule in 1989.
Bodies found
The militants had made their hideout in a cave which was actually the bear's den, said police officer Farooq Ahmed.
The dead have been identified as Mohammad Amin alias Qaiser, and Bashir Ahmed alias Saifullah.
News of the attack emerged when their injured comrade went to a nearby village for treatment.
"Word spread in the village that Qaiser had been killed by the bear," another police officer said.
A joint party of the police and army personnel went into the forest and collected the bodies of the two militants.
Police say they also recovered two AK-46 rifles and some ammunition from the hideout.
Animal attacks
Wildlife experts say the conflict in Kashmir has actually resulted in an increase in the population of bears and leopards.
Following the outbreak of the insurgency people had to hand in their weapons to police - which put a halt to poaching.
As a result, there has been a greater incidence of man-animal conflict, say experts.
There have been many reports of bears and leopards killing or mauling humans in different parts of the Kashmir valley in recent years.
Three years ago, residents of Mandora village near the southern town of Tral, beat a black bear to death which had strayed into the village. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/3/2009 7:15:22 AM |
The militants were armed with AK-46s Well, it's a darned good thing they had their guns isn't it...
I'll stick with the bear spray and air horn while hiking... and make sure that I'm not hiking at a time when the gun toting guys are out in their glory. It's worked for me so far, and I don't see it changing for me in the future... however, if I do get mauled by a bear, I will happily rescind my statements post mortem. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:51:18 PM |
Exactly. It's the same reason I quit going to the pistol range. When would I ever shoot somebody while looking down the sights of a handgun with two feet set and a smooth controlled trigger motion? Never. It's a waste of money and a good way to get lead poisoning (non-jacketed bullets indoors throw dust everywhere).
Handgun wounds for people have about a 5% fatality rate last I checked (suicides probably excluded - as they should be). The odds of getting a hit on a predator in full charge are small and the likelihood of it stopping them even smaller.
Which is why you go to the range. So that stance and trigger control become 2nd nature to you. Also I don't know too many places (in the states anyway) that sell non jacketed rounds, unless its for something like for cowbow action shooting.
If that 5% rate is anywhere near correct, which I doubt, then that just shows the need for more practice. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:12:48 PM | | This has nothing to do with an indivduals right to bare arms or carry weapons, it was a tragic event and I sympathize with her family, but this doesn't happen everyday. The loss of natural habitat has forced many species to find alterative sources of food, like dump bears or raccoons in garbage bins, animals will do what they have to do to survive, very few look at humans as lunch. People need to take precautions when in the woods or on a trail, but having a bunch of urbanites with guns is not the answer. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:17:52 PM |
This has nothing to do with an indivduals right to bare arms or carry weapons, it was a tragic event and I sympathize with her family, but this doesn't happen everyday. The loss of natural habitat has forced many species to find alterative sources of food, like dump bears or raccoons in garbage bins, animals will do what they have to do to survive, very few look at humans as lunch. People need to take precautions when in the woods or on a trail, but having a bunch of urbanites with guns is not the answer. Good post. Completely agree. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:38:04 PM | truth be told....aside from staying out of bear territory.....the best NON lethal bear defence is a road flare.....bear spray wont stop a determined bear100% of the time....a road flare in the face will..............no..i've never done it..but i know 2 men that have........one proubly wasnt a determined charge.......the other guy required about 90 stitches..danged few guns will stop a determined charge either..which is why most guides in grizzly country carry shotguns loaded with slugs or big caliber rifles.
bears dont worry me much......but human predators do...and thats why i choose to carry protection | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:42:11 PM |
Which is why you go to the range. So that stance and trigger control become 2nd nature to you. Or you use some other method to protect yourself. People that don't like firearms aren't going to take your advice and start arming themselves, nor should they. That would be the last thing we need in the bush. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:55:36 PM |
This has nothing to do with an individuals right to bare arms or carry weapons, it was a tragic event and I sympathize with her family, but this doesn't happen everyday. The loss of natural habitat has forced many species to find alternative sources of food, like dump bears or raccoons in garbage bins, animals will do what they have to do to survive, very few look at humans as lunch. People need to take precautions when in the woods or on a trail, but having a bunch of urbanites with guns is not the answer.
Loss of habitat and urban sprawl do force animals to adapt in ways that are not palatable with human interaction. Many animals such as deer and rabbits adapt quite well to urban sprawl because of the protection present hunting laws afford them. Predators being predators take advantage of this situation and move into urban areas drawn by the food source. This is when the trouble starts. I agree whole heatedly that all the factors are the fault of man.
However, Ms. Mitchell was killed in a wilderness area in a provincial park. Not a house within 15 miles. Urban sprawl was not a factor. One of the things that will come out of this is better signage warning of the dangers and perhaps rules restricting solo hikes. This would be unfortunate as many people go into the wild by themselves for reasons that include a need for solitude, healing, self reflection, and many other reasons. I am one of those individuals that prefer to travel alone by times with no other reason but to experience the escape it provides. I would like to have some peace of mind when I do that in the ability to protect myself as well. | |
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| Protection From Pedators
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:25:15 PM |
Well, it's a darned good thing they had their guns isn't it...
All of the armed people that were killed by predators proves several things:
1 - Firearms are no guarantee of protection
2 - If firearms did not protect in these situations, bear spray would not have either
3 - Some predators are so effective in certain situations that nothing would have stopped them.
Personally, and I state "personally" (I do not want to promote inexperienced use of firearms), I would prefer a sidearm for protection, not a rifle, an AK47, or the animal repellent that is available to me. I have no way to possess bear or pepper spray. If the laws were changed and I had my choice between a sidearm and pepper spay, a sidearm it would be. Air horns are great if the animal runs away.
A reminder that this post is about protection provided by sidearms for people traveling in the woods in Canada and the U.S., not militants in a cave in the Middle East.
when the gun toting guys are out in their glory.
With 50,000 plus Nova Scotians out in all their glory since October 30th, no one has been hurt at this point. I do promise that if anything happens here I will post it and take my lumps. I stand by the fact that hunting in Nova Scotia is one of the safest recreational activities there is. Before you jump on that statement do some checking into incidents per 100,00 participants in other recreation activities such as softball, hockey, and downhill skiing for example and then check operation of automobiles as well. I am not worried about armed people in the woods, I am one of them and you have nothing to fear from me and I feel perfectly safe traveling in the woods during hunting season. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:25:40 PM | | Hunting is not a sport until you give the animal a gun.Mavco, you were in Coyote territory so I hope that they gave you something to think about. Culling animals is too good a name, call it what it is a SLAUGHTER. Very Cowardly, Very Very Cowardly. | |
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| Protection From Predators
Posted: 11/3/2009 6:31:26 PM | | With all the hiking and nature trails we have in Canada, you take a chance anytime you go into these areas, now realistically how many people are attacked by animals compared to the number of hikers in a year. How many people are capable or have the necessary reaction time to shot a bear that is attacking them. Most people will panic and freeze, giving the animal time to attack so a gun will not really help you unless you are an experienced hunter/guide and even hunters have been killed or maimed by animals, a gun does not guarantee your safety. The flare idea is interesting thou, animals are definitely afraid of fire, would give you a chance to getaway. | |
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