| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/3/2009 3:21:39 PM | Any organization given the ''automatic'' right to harvest organs is dead wrong......
No one, I mean NO ONE should be given any kind of harvest privilages without the expressed written consent of the donor or guardian......
Good lord, what a bizzare thought......
If the lack of organ donors are the issue then start a ''sign up'' drive, have it posted on a drivers licence or care card etc...................... | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:26:34 PM | think we should all be organ donors.. what r we going to do with them anyways after we r dead???
If u don't want ur organs to be donated then we should sign off on our licenses that we do not chose to have them donated.
AUTOMATIC donation I say. If u forget to sign then it's ur loss but really do u care if ur dead. Someone else can use ur organs to live a full productive life.
Hopefully, we don't pollute these vital organs away by being stupid with excess intake of toxins. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/3/2009 5:50:13 PM |
Hopefully, we don't pollute these vital organs away by being stupid with excess intake of toxins.
So your are trying to lay a guilt trip on us, that we shouldn't party hearty, because someone else will be waiting for our organs after we are finished with them?
While I try to take the best care of my body and its innards that I possibly can, and balance that with my desire to enjoy life to fullest, I'll be dammed if I'm going to worry about the next "user".  | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/3/2009 8:06:57 PM | steno: I wonder how many times organs can be donated?
I think it depends on compatibility between donor and recipient. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:06:56 PM | <<< Can see registry banks full of donor data being created and the information slipping into the wrong hands...
...hmm, wonder which gangs will be interested in the new illegal trafficking profits from abducting and warehousing suitable donors for people with money who are sick and need transplants?
...and what would they call them? DonorOps?
Creepy. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/5/2009 12:59:14 AM |
I'm absolutely against an opt-out system. Protection of your person is the most basic of all rights and we should never, ever set precedents which suggest any organization (least of all one connected to the government) is entitled to our bodies in any way. There are just so many ways that can go bad it's frightening. It's not really much different in principle from the way the Chinese government harvests the organs of executed prisoners.
I 100 % disagree with the above statment and then as I read further in the thread I was dismayed to find many people who agreed and were against the opt-out system.
I am all for human rights but if someone is going to die or suffer
while waiting to "protect " my rights after I sopped breathing is a bit extreme.... I am surprised because I find the argument against cold ,insensitive and without any real merit.
>> and frankly , I see nothing wrong with harvesting organs from executed prisoners. I think Clifford Olsen should have been chopped up and passed around long ago .... | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/5/2009 3:56:03 AM | eeeeeek just had a terrible vision, of row upon row of humans
growing in orchards (tied to poles like stringbeans)
for harvesting
Being fed wholesome & nutruitious foods only... no alcohol, drugs,
or smoking permitted to keep the vital organs un-adulterated.
Prospective Donor Recipients walking up & down the rows, deciding
which one they want to pick their organ from.
A scene befitting a Horror movie  | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/5/2009 9:04:23 AM |
I 100 % disagree with the above statment and then as I read further in the thread I was dismayed to find many people who agreed and were against the opt-out system.
Personally, I'm dismayed by the number of people who apparently think they have some right to other people's organs after they're done with them!
Organ donations are a gift and a favour by kind-hearted souls who want to save lives. For people to start demanding them is beyond rude and well into outrageous. Yes, there is an endless list of people who can benefit from organ transplants. That does NOT, repeat NOT justify all measures to get them. People should not be seen as a stock of raw materials.
So you don't see why anybody would care what happens to their organs after death. So what? What business is that of yours? Who gave you the right to decide what should happen to their body? Presumed consent is just substituting "the government" for "you," no difference in principle.
I am all for human rights but if someone is going to die or suffer
while waiting to "protect " my rights after I sopped breathing is a bit extreme.... I am surprised because I find the argument against cold ,insensitive and without any real merit.
Obviously you're not ALL for human rights if you don't respect even that most basic right to decide what happens to your own body. As for it being insensitive ... yeh., taking organs from recently-dead people without their express consent is REALLY sensitive! Jeez. I can already hear the angry protests from hypothetical future furious families.
>> and frankly , I see nothing wrong with harvesting organs from executed prisoners. I think Clifford Olsen should have been chopped up and passed around long ago ....
A few minutes boning up on Google should turn up lots of problems. Aside from the basic question of whether prisoners give up all their rights or not, there's the concern that this encourages more executions. This is not some hypothetical horror fantasy, by the way. These are exactly the arguments raised about China's very high rate of executions, many of which are for non-violent crimes.
I do believe in donating organs, and I've been an organ donor for as long as I've had a driver's license. Nevertheless... if the system ever becomes "opt-out" I will immediately opt out and fire off a letter of protest while doing it. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/5/2009 9:33:21 AM | | ^ agree. And there must be innumerable ways to increase the number of people consenting with very little imagination. Makes me wonder why they would want to handle it as "presumed consent" They could have the consent cards available at the desk of your doctors office, they could make the yeah or nay response compulsory for license and BC ID renewals, they could have yearly campaigns where the cards were available everywhere, and how about all those people lining up for flu shots. The public health sees a number of families every year for seasonal and other shots. The Post Office, the liquor store, the pharmacy.......... | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 2:35:42 AM | TravellerSEB --- well you are long winded and are coming from a bit of the BS baffles brains technique lol ....you go 
Sorry , I respect your opinion as such ......but I do not agree with the argument you have presented
Cheers  | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:44:42 AM | Try it this way - if there were a system that allowed for automatic organ donation, how long would it be before the bulk of the needed transplants were completed and the demand lower?
... or if they offered some tax deduction for a live donation (kidney, liver lobe) that people would be more willing to do that and not have to worry about taking time off work, etc?
So far as the Chinese executions, my information was (at the time we did our transplant) that the Asian community had the lowest donor level in BC, yet one of the highest demand levels. A cultural thing? Thoughts? | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:14:37 AM | I do not believe that the demand for organs, should over-ride the importance of respect for values, cultural beliefs, human rights, especially when there are other ways of achieving the same goals. However, offering tax deductions as an incentive to have the cards signed for a period of time, could go on the list for getting people's attention.
<div class="quote">the Asian community had the lowest donor level in BC, yet one of the highest demand levels.
That could simply be a matter of poor communication with that community. As it stands, the only time I become aware of the organ donor issue is when I renew my DL. For those that don't drive, the opportunities to become aware of the issue are few as far as I know? | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:59:32 AM |
TravellerSEB --- well you are long winded and are coming from a bit of the BS baffles brains technique lol ....you go
Name calling is not impressive, and neither are you.
Sorry , I respect your opinion as such ......but I do not agree with the argument you have presented
That first part is a blatant lie, since your last comment was clearly disrespectful... What was that about BS?
My argument is pretty simple, really. Presumed consent takes away a fundamental right and opens up potential for a very long list of abuses. We've already seen some of those abuses in other places and should be asking why they couldn't happen here.
I have yet to hear any argument from you in response. Why not answer the actual points? It's bound to work out better for you than trying to flame me... :)
Getting back to the land of reason ...
Try it this way - if there were a system that allowed for automatic organ donation, how long would it be before the bulk of the needed transplants were completed and the demand lower?
It's an interesting question. With constantly-improving techniques and a higher rate of success with transplants, the demand for them is probably set to rise for a long while to come. Probably it'll continue until some point far in the future when we can grow organs from stem cells, which would be an all-around better solution.
... or if they offered some tax deduction for a live donation (kidney, liver lobe) that people would be more willing to do that and not have to worry about taking time off work, etc?
Probably. Why stop there? We can buy organs directly as they do in some other countries and then we can have a long list of people lining up to sell them, just like they do. That would reduce the demand for organ-trafficking rings a bit but then we'd have to watch that our own system didn't coerce people into selling organs, and there would surely be a tremendous outcry as soon as somebody discovers that poor people are much more likely to sell bits of themselves than rich people. In short, we'd be more like the US and we can already see the downside to their way of doing things. Nevertheless, it's not a bad idea - the potential for corruption there seems a bit less than with presumed consent. I don't think it's likely to happen, though. Canadians aren't even keen on the idea of paying for blood donations (or weren't last I heard).
So far as the Chinese executions, my information was (at the time we did our transplant) that the Asian community had the lowest donor level in BC, yet one of the highest demand levels. A cultural thing? Thoughts?
Yes, it is clearly a cultural thing. Traditional Chinese belief has it that your ghost will reflect the shape of your body when you die (or something like that), so if you're missing body parts that's bad news for the afterlife. Probably most of them don't consciously believe it any more than most white Canadians believe in hellfire, but these kinds of beliefs tend to lurk in the backs of people's minds and influence their thoughts whether they like to consciously admit it or not.
But that's just a detail... the point is the tremendous potential for abuse there. The system in China is such that somebody might be convicted of fraud, executed, and then have their organs donated against their will. Are you ok with that? If so, are you still fine with it knowing that there are an awful lot of corrupt officials there and the only real protection against their abuses is to have connections of your own? Is it hard to conceive that there probably are judges being extra harsh in their sentencing so they can bump up their donation numbers and fill some quota for which they're being paid under the table? It's not hard to picture for those of us who've lived there.
That's the problem with this whole line of thinking. People just see the obvious benefits to the organ recipient but don't see all the potential problems for society in general. Why doesn't Canada have the level of abuse these other places do? Because we have a culture and a legal system which protects individuals and their rights. Lately there seems to be an endless parade of people wanting to chisel away that structure to satisfy their particular needs, and although they all clearly believe they are doing good the end result is likely to work out badly for everyone. Presumed consent for organ donation is just one clear and easy example of the phenomenon.
Also, I do entirely agree with the practical point that there are a whole lot more intermediate steps we could be taking to increase donation rates. Even above and beyond the arguments of principle, I don't see any need to make the system opt-out. It's just a lazy way of getting to the ends they want. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:06:40 AM | My body is my own whether I'm alive or dead. For someone else to presume that they have a right to any part of it unless specified is a scary concept. Where do we draw the line???
I thought being human, we had a bit more respect for each other and not be treated like an abandoned car at the scrap heap.
Next step might be you have two kidneys and you don't really need one. Let's just help ourselves......
Stephen King could make a movie out of this theme! | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:42:10 AM | Island Raven
TravellerSEB --- well you are long winded and are coming from a bit of the BS baffles brains technique lol ....you go
Not that Traveller really needs anyone to defend his position but I have to disagree with your statement. Even if I did not agree with his position on the topic, I think his posts are well articulated and concise and the logic is sound.
Clearly this is an emotional topic for some people, especially for those whose lives have been impacted by organ donation, or lack thereof, and it seems in some cases their logic is clouded by the emotions.
I think the people pushing for an opt-out system might be surprised by the number of people opting out if such a system was forced upon us. Some would opt out purely to make a statement against the policy. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:49:41 AM |
TravellerSEB --- well you are long winded and are coming from a bit of the BS baffles brains technique lol ....you go
Name calling is not impressive, and neither are you.
Sorry , I respect your opinion as such ......but I do not agree with the argument you have presented
That first part is a blatant lie, since your last comment was clearly disrespectful... What was that about BS?
oh for heavens sake grow up. I did not do any name calling and referring to your technique of writing on and on trying to baffle with BS is a figure of speech ( and free speech is a right too ) . I am all for forums/ opinions but your response to my ""not agreeing"" with you is really no more than an over blown sense of self importance and arrogance on your part.
Please spare me the self indulgent victim routine because I do not agree with you
I will not engage further because this has bugger all to do with the thread.
I disagree ...period | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:30:03 PM | I'm getting visions of horror movies coming to life with us being forced to give up free choice of whether to donate or not.
I see automatic harvesting as a new source of income for doctors. I can see some of the unscrupulous ones accepting payment under the table to schedule patients for unnecessary surgery to remove healthy kidneys, portions of their liver & other organs under the pretense that the organ is causing their illness, in order to pass the organ onto those who have the bucks & need transplants.
Or even giving patients meds to make them appear terminal, talking the families into donating their organs, then pulling the plug just to gain that patient's organs for transplant in exchange for a new form of "blood money".
Then there are those with some surgical knowledge, possibly those who have barred from practicing medicine, who might enter the underground business of harvesting organs from the homeless or others who are desperate for cash & selling their organs via illegal channels to those desperate enough to pay for said organs.
Yuppers! Horror movies coming to real life indeed. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:33:17 PM |
However, I have no problem with forcing people to give a definitive Yes or No answer to the question as part of the driver licensing routine.
If this thread does not cause an awareness – it will give room for an option of consciousness the next time we renew our licences. Thank you Traveller. Be sure to let your family know in advance your decisions.
I decided to share about organ transplants. … Because … Have you watched you tube video about “transplanting memories”?? It is worth watching and considering memory transplants from the donors. It covers heart transplants only and how the recipient gets strong urges to be like the donor. I wonder if the same type of memory transfer occurs with other organs?
I believe if there is truth to the samples provided…there might be reason to give background info of the brain that shared the heart one might receive as transplant. One never knows – it could be an improvement for some…lol.
At peace!
Edit: Seconds later- heart surgeries with transplants are done within a timeline….sorry not meaning to be cold and insensitive with my response….the idea of matching substance to a person would not be considered with the above.
At peace! | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 5:26:18 PM | The majority of us don't like it when private companys pull this kinda crap on us,,,,billing us for things because we didn't check the "no" box when we get stuff in the mail. Do you really think it is a good idea to let the goverment START doing it,,,,,,with OUR bodies??????? (and do ya think it's gonna stop there????)
Now,,,,start thinking long and hard before you get all bleedy heart on me and repeat your YES'!!!!! Longgggggg and hard.
Don't think it is such a wise idea to be letting someone to do something to my body by default. Don't care if I'm dead or not. I understand what "they" think "they" are trying to do,,,,but there are other ways.
I'm also of the belief that sooner or later we are going to have to start worrying about how long we "extend" lives for. In the nature of things,,,,there are reasons why there are the weak. The world is not expanding here kidlets. Yeah,,,,I know I sound harsh,,,but really all I am doing is thinking out loud. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:13:21 PM | ... or... if it were your spouse/child/parent dying because some perfectly healthy idiot on a motorcycle crashed and was brain dead but didn't have a signed donor card with the potential to affect up to 9 other lives...
That's why people in the States show up in hospitals with guns. People ARE aware, they're just lazy or stupid and think they're immortal. Wha tever.
There are so many ways to exclude donors - think about it. If you're on any blood pressure medications, you can only donate corneas. If you've had cancer - nope. There are a myriad of other exclusions that limit the donor pool to less than 5%. (excluding live related donors)
Again, totally biased. Talk amongst yourselves. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:47:10 AM | This planets just getting weirder and weirder.......
What's happening in this so called ''free country''?
Now if the soap boxers get their way, if our heart stops.......the gouls with sharp things will swoop in and start hacking us up like the free box at a garage sale.....
Enough of the nonsense, if anyone wants what another owns, ask for it in advance.......not what i'd called rocket science.
This proposel reflects badly on just how lazy and greedy this movement is.
I'm all for organ donation but i'm not for being forced into something and forced again to jump hoops to get out.....it's bullsh!t............. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/7/2009 12:47:02 PM | Quit fussin', T50 - there's a very short line-up for your cranky old organs anyway.
Once again, the Canadian donor pool is sadly limited because we have seatbelt laws and gun control. The drivers' licence option is no longer valid and the only way to register is by actively sending in a card - postage paid even, for chrissakes, and still people are too lazy.
Why not have the kids declare their intent in school? Before they get their drivers' licence? Grade 10-11, whatever, give them a card and have them fill in a YES/NO privately. The registry should be National, not just Provincial. | |
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| Organ donation - Opt-in or Opt-out?
Posted: 11/7/2009 2:22:33 PM | ... or... if it were your spouse/child/parent dying because some perfectly healthy idiot on a motorcycle crashed and was brain dead but didn't have a signed donor card with the potential to affect up to 9 other lives...
Erm... no. With all due respect for your loss, YGF, I can't let this stand. People aren't dying because there are no organs on hand to transplant. They're dying because they have diseases or injuries that leave them in need of new organs. This is like saying "I'm broke because people won't give me money." Harsh though it may be to say, it is ultimately the recipient's problem. While people should be applauded for donating organs it's their right and their choice not to, and there are lots of good respectable reasons why they might not want to donate.
Once again, the Canadian donor pool is sadly limited because we have seatbelt laws and gun control.
I hope that's dark humour and you don't really mean to say it's a bad thing that fewer people are dying accidentally!
The drivers' licence option is no longer valid and the only way to register is by actively sending in a card - postage paid even, for chrissakes, and still people are too lazy.
Lazy? This is the first I've heard that it doesn't go with driver's licensing any more, and now I'm wondering if the card I filled in ages ago still has any validity. Not only that, I don't know where I could check or get one of these postcards to send in. I don't think I'm being lazy on the matter; there are no end of equally important things to mind and we can't all think about them all the time.
That does point up one very obvious thing that could be done to boost donation rates - improve the abysmal communication on the subject! (Somebody suggested that already, right?)
Why not have the kids declare their intent in school? Before they get their drivers' licence? Grade 10-11, whatever, give them a card and have them fill in a YES/NO privately.
Can kids legally decide for themselves? If their relatives wanted to fight about it twenty years later, would a high-school form hold up?
What other places could we grab everybody and ask them to say Yes or No definitively? Health care paperwork won't do because there'll often be one person handling it all for the whole family. Maybe as part of the census? That doesn't happen often but it does catch every single person in Canada (as nearly as possible) with a form they have to fill in personally. | |
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