| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:30:52 AM | "I can't imagine the U.S. can force citizens to buy something, or face criminal prosecution. "
By law in CA you must have insurance to drive a car or face criminal prosecution. If CA can do that, why can't the feds?
As a centrist I am happy tonight. I got both health care and restrictions on some abortions. yea. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:38:11 AM |
cncgandolf wrote: By law in CA you must have insurance to drive a car or face criminal prosecution. If CA can do that, why can't the feds?
But no where are we required to own or drive a vehicle. That's a big difference.
~Beth~ | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:39:49 AM | "we are supposed to immulate the rest of the world that is waaaay behind us so that we can dumb down to their level."
You might want to study a little bit more about the countries you are calling 'dumb down to their level' EU countries are not 'waaay behind us' | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:43:42 AM | "I can't imagine the U.S. can force citizens to buy something, or face criminal prosecution. "
By law in CA you must have insurance to drive a car or face criminal prosecution. If CA can do that, why can't the feds?
Don't use logic with hard-line Republicans. It makes their brains hurt. I also would like someone to cite a source that people will be "criminally prosecuted" for not having health insurance. More misinformation being spread. There's a fine, but no criminal prosecution. 'Just goes to show you can't trust the hardliners to tell the truth. 
we are supposed to immulate the rest of the world that is waaaay behind us so that we can dumb down to their level.
I think you're doing enough dumbing down on your own. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 7:25:56 AM | cncgandolf wrote:
By law in CA you must have insurance to drive a car or face criminal prosecution. If CA can do that, why can't the feds?
zenbeth wrote:
But no where are we required to own or drive a vehicle. That's a big difference.
Good answer. I guess we ARE required to have a body to live in the US, so the Feds think that gives them the right to mandate. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 9:00:44 AM | And when the day the Feds say by law you MUST have health insurance THATS the day when they will start dictating what you can and cannot eat, what recreational sport activities you can and cannot participate in, whether you can or cannot smoke, whether you can or cannot drink alcohol, etc. etc. all in the name to keep costs down..........
And then when auto insurance is taken over by the Feds...... they will dictate what kind of car you can and cannot drive........
This is the problem with control and taking the stroll down this path and opening this can of worms......it will slowly spiral out of control.... a slippery slope to say the least. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 10:17:38 AM | I also would like someone to cite a source that people will be "criminally prosecuted" for not having health insurance. More misinformation being spread. There's a fine, but no criminal prosecution. 'Just goes to show you can't trust the hardliners to tell the truth.
You first ask for evidence for what I said--but then say that it's "misinformation" and strongly imply I was lying. If you knew what I said was false, why would you care about evidence that it's true?
You then say that "there's a fine, but no criminal prosecution." Unless the section of the bill that applies was amended in the last two days, that is not accurate. Someone who refused to pay a tax meant to coerce them into buying something--a provision whose constitutionality is doubtful--could face not only fines, but also criminal prosecution.
I'm including a summary of a Nov. 5 letter from the Joint Committee on Taxation to Rep. Camp of the House Ways and Means Committee. Below that is a link to the letter itself. This letter was the JCT's response to Rep. Camp's question about the consequences of failing to comply with the individual mandate of H.R. 3962, and also failing to pay the tax penalty for this.
As the JCT letter confirms, this would violate the Internal Revenue Code. The JCT explains that the IRS can impose a range of civil penalties under the Code, and that this is the way it usually resolves tax delinquencies. But in case of willful violations, the Code also provides for criminal prosecution and imprisonment. These are used far less often than civil penalties--but they are used. In FY 2008, for example, courts convicted 666 people IRS had referred to the Justice Department for prosecution for legal income tax crimes, and 498 of them went to prison.
PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail
JCT Confirms Failure to Comply with Democrats’ Mandate Can Lead to 5 Years in Jail
Friday, November 06, 2009
Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.
In response to the JCT letter, Camp said: “This is the ultimate example of the Democrats’ command-and-control style of governing – buy what we tell you or go to jail. It is outrageous and it should be stopped immediately.”
Key excerpts from the JCT letter appear below:
“H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” [page 1]?? - - - - - - - - - -
“If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply…” [page 2]?? - - - - - - - - - - ?
“Criminal penalties
Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:
• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.
• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3]
When confronted with this same issue during its consideration of a similar individual mandate tax, the Senate Finance Committee worked on a bipartisan basis to include language in its bill that shielded Americans from civil and criminal penalties. The Pelosi bill, however, contains no similar language protecting American citizens from civil and criminal tax penalties that could include a $250,000 fine and five years in jail.
“The Senate Finance Committee had the good sense to eliminate the extreme penalty of incarceration. Speaker Pelosi’s decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates. Fortunately, Republicans have an alternative that will lower health insurance costs without raising taxes or cutting Medicare,” said Camp.
According to the Congressional Budget Office the lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speaker’s bill would cost $15,000 in 2016.
http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/UploadedFiles/JCTletter110509.pdf | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 10:58:30 AM | gentlebear22:
The open unregulated free market system put our economy into total disarray. All those banks were in line to get their free handouts from us the taxpayers. Then they turn around and give out bonuses to their so call geniuses who made all those stupid decisions won't leave their companies. If you want an total free market system, those banks should of went under. But no! They were in line to get their asses saved. If they are getting our money, they better expect some watchdog over them. I really think interest rates of 30 percent on credit cards amount to thuggery on the banks part. Or just call get what it really is: loan sharking
No Gentlebear, the free market system did not put our economy into disarray. It's the lack of it that did. The free market is never wrong (over a period of time) because of its 'free' nature. When it deviates off course, such as with growing bubbles, its participants are free to bring it back on course guided by their pocket books. The free market is self correcting. Of course there will always be mini recessions every so often but that's just a part of course correction. Overall the market will always remain healthy. In fact in a true free market system, prolonged recessions will never happen.
The problem happens only when *GOVT * inserts its ugly hands in the market for the benefit of the 'common man'. What is govt ? Govt is nothing but an inept, incompetent, ignorant yet supremely arrogant, bunch of idiots with useless degrees who have never amounted to anything in the real world, trying to control other people. Because nothing in their minds can ever get done without the blessing or oversight of govt.
The depression that we are in now is 100% the creation of government (aka liberal Democrats), mainly Carter, Clinton, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. By forcing lenders to lend money to people who had no business owning homes (because they had no demonstrated ability to repay their loans) a huge bubble built up over the years with lenders lending away, buyers buying away and builders building away. Even with govt tampering, the market had to correct at some point, which is what led to the collapse of 2008.
But the story end doesn't end there. What would normally have been a slightly bigger than normal recession, quickly turned into a major depression. What we are seeing is a parallel of FDR. Knowingly or unknowingly, FDR created the Great Depression and used it as an excuse to expand the power and reach of govt as never before. Barack Hussein Obama and gang are doing just that, but knowing full well the results of their actions. Getting the country of recession is not their objective (Rahm Emanuel's famous words ' a crisis is an opportunity'). Quite the contrary. The longer they can keep the depression going, the more they can milk it to promote their agenda of govt annexation of private enterprise. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 11:20:54 AM |
I really think interest rates of 30 percent on credit cards amount to thuggery on the banks part
Perhaps. But you are free not to do business with them. When enough of you do that, they will get the message. But when govt reaches into your paycheck and confiscates upto 40% of it even before it gets to you, do you have a say ?? Can you imagine a private company doing that ? Would say Verizon ever be able to withhold $300 from your paycheck saying they would return the balance (depending on your usage) at the end of the year ? You Democrat voters need to understand who really is on your side. Defending freedom is not the same as defending unsavory practices of businesses. That's what the Democrats want you to believe. In the end you will be better off being free and making your own decisions rather than as a slave to govt supposedly on your side. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 11:38:25 AM | Ed,
By all accounts the economy is in recovery. I don't know where you are conjuring up this conspiracy theory that the Administration is profitting off of sustaining a "depression." Very creative though. Please don't go with the 10.2% unemployment rate means the economy is in disarray. There are several other factors to take into comsideration when taking the pulse of the economy.
When people have to make things up to complain about, it's a good sign things are going well. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 11:40:48 AM | I don't Skooch...
Things don't seem to be going to well where I sit.
 | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 11:58:08 AM | Economy in recovery? Wall Street is in recovery, primarily export oriented and multi nationals. The healthcare and cap and trade insure permanent double digit unemployment much as Europe lives with. They are workers (well if you conssider useless, whiney union members) paradise
While we strip capital out of the system and de-incentivize risk takers from employing, I mean why take a risk on buying or investing in a business when they are guaranteeing higher taxes and employee perks at employer expense? | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:00:35 PM | Ed! The Great Depression started under the Hoover Administration. FDR's New Deal helped United states get out of it. A course World war Two played a big part in ending The Depression Too.
The recession in the early nineties occurred under Papa Bush's administration. A course it was the remnants Ronnie Regan's "Voo Doo Economic Policy". Under the Clinton tenure the economy did very well. This recession started under Junior Bush's tenure. How about that: "Like Father Like Son". | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:06:03 PM | | Child labor would be so much better for business wouldn't it? Workers shouldn't have no right to organize. Shoot, they shouldn't be entitled to overtime pay, holiday pay, sick days or vacation pay. They should work seven twelves for pennies and just be greatful to have a job. Fock the employees it's all about the CEO's ability to exploit their labor. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:13:13 PM | | Typical Conservatives want total free rein in business with no regards of the effects of their decisions in the long run. But then they want to get into people's personal lives on how they live, think and do things. This sounds like an hypocrite to me. They want to use the system for their selfish benefit with total disregard of what is the best for mankind. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:34:03 PM | Previous to the 1929 collapse, business had begun to falter. Following the crash, the United States continued to decline steadily into the most profound depression of its history. Banks failed, millions of citizens suddenly had no savings. Factories locked their gates, shops were shuttered forever, and most remaining businesses struggled to survive. Local governments faced great difficulty with collecting taxes to keep services going. Thus The Hoover term was just months old when the nation sustained the most ruinous business collapse in its history, which had started when John Coolidge was President. Sounds very familiar.
Recent past recessions were Mar-Nov '01, July 90-March '91, July '81-Nov '82, Jan-July '80, Nov '73-March '75 which was because of OPEC raising oil prices. Anyone remember the gas rationing?
~Beth~ | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:34:56 PM |
By all accounts the economy is in recovery.
Skootch !!! You gotta be kidding me bro. Thats what they want you to believe with positive spin comments like jobless recovery.
Tell that to the 190,000 americans who lost their job in October 2009 alone and that 190,000 is only the ones who filed for unemployment benefits. It does not count self employed who cannot received benefits or the under employed ( those who hours or pay got cut)
Unemployment is way above the 10.2 percent figure that was just released on Friday. It is closer to 17 - 20 percent since their figure only counts people who have applied and/or are receiving unemployment benefits.
Foreclosures are still happening like an avalanche and it has nothing to do anymore with sub prime loans.
I just don`t know why you think we are in recovery mode with the highest unemployment in 26 years...... and growing EACH and EVERY month.
I realize the lib/mainstream media wants us to believe it is in recovery in support of their candidate but one cannot ignore the facts and statistics....
True... we may be back from the brink of complete and total financial collapse but that is about it....
Besides we were never in a recession...... we were/are in a depression but for our government and mainstream media to say that would cause panic and mayhem throughout the population......and I can understand them not using that verbage...... but jeez.... recovery ???? Sorry bro..... it ain`t happening.... | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:52:34 PM | Business does need regulation... But how did these things get out of control... The regulators. Just because we can not be unregulated, the over regulation is just as bad or worse.
Businesses run themselves pretty good, the free market has been good to America. Look at our financial problems... It isn't from the small businesses and business in general, It's from the government involvement into the market.
One example... Freddie and Fannie was regulated by the government... Bush wanted to tighten that rope.... Because it had gotten too loose. The Black Caucus, Barney Franks.. and those who were trying to help those who were minorities or other groups who could not afford a home, bent the regulation to far... creating a vacuum that got way too many people into homes they couldn't really afford.
This wasn't the free market at work.... This was the Government trying to push a social program that eventually collapsed.
This did get companies like Countrywide, who where in Dodds pocket... To over reach as well.
This effected the banking system. Not the Free Market
Sure speculators and Wall Street have some blame.... But to want to take down the Free Market system and small business is crazy.
They should work seven twelves for pennies and just be greatful to have a job. Fock the employees it's all about the CEO's ability to exploit their labor.
This isn't the free market... Most businesses take care of their employees. Don't let a few bad apples fuzzy your vision. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 1:02:26 PM |
The Great Depression started under the Hoover Administration. FDR's New Deal helped United states get out of it.
Yes as to the first, but the second's not so clear. Some economists who have studied the Great Depression have concluded that the measures FDR took probably made it deeper--and several years longer--than it would have been otherwise. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 1:11:22 PM | Milton Friedman wrote the definitive book on the depression, won a Nobel prize in econ for it. Hoover certainly was President when it began, FDR certainly prolonged it.
Ever give any serious thought why we've only had one depression? Sec of treasure Morgenthau in 1939, 7 years of FRD policy, admitted there were no signs any actions they had taken did anything but prolong and deepen the depression.
Now I know FDR is some Dem saint but he was a villian to me. All of his economic actions were of the type that will ruin, and prolong this recession/depression. It is simply counterintuitive to imagine a government can spend a country to prosperity.. were it possible, there would be no poor countries. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 1:16:40 PM |
But then they want to get into people's personal lives on how they live, think and do things.
The people I see who are most anxious to control how everyone else lives, thinks, and speaks are all so-called "liberals." They cannot seem to get enough government intervention into people's lives, through one regulation after another. Of course, they always sell these interventions as somehow improving our lives. In fact, they are slowly eating away at our personal liberties and the Constitution that guarantees them. It is the undermining of that Constitution--and a growing hostility toward the restraints on government its framers deliberately built into it--that makes our slow drift toward a totalitarian state possible. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 1:17:58 PM | Golfcoast: Pretty much agree. (and now that I think about it, you too Match)
The key out of any depression and also what we're in now is productivity [need to also include motions for fewer restrictions on that as part of the mix (that'd also include taxes and environmental items)] and balance of trade, or even a net positive in exporting. ~ But I don't think the current administration "gets" that. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 1:57:50 PM |
They should work seven twelves for pennies and just be greatful to have a job. Fock the employees it's all about the CEO's ability to exploit their labor.
That sort of exploitation could only happen if there were just a few jobs available and an enormous oversupply of workers competing for them. But there's no reason to expect any market, even if it temporarily got out of balance like that, to stay that way.
If a firm were able to pay as little for its labor as you describe, its profits would tend to be higher than normal. And that would attract other firms to enter the field to get some of it for themselves. That would increase the demand for workers, which would drive up their wages. And the same is true the other way around. If someone's the only dentist for 100 miles around, they may be able to get top dollar for their services--but only until the word gets around, and a few more dentists set up shop in the area. At some point, the first one will find he has to charge less, or see his patients go elsewhere.
Child labor in the U.S. tended to be most common in the rural South when this was still a mostly agricultural country. And the people who pushed for it were often the children's parents--one of the Supreme Court's decisions on child labor came about because a father had challenged a law restricting it. If your farm was on poor land in the hills and you had more children than you could support, you might think having a couple of the young un's earn the family some money in the furniture factory was better than all of you starving. | |
|
| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/8/2009 2:16:43 PM | Match teaching Dem's economics may be the ultimate tilting at windmills. I recall studying economic history with an special interest in pre- and post capitalism in Great Britain (Sir Richard Petty is actually credited with the idea of "liberal economics", Adam Smith documented the capilalist system and theory).****ns of course wrote of the appalling conditions in London during these early capitalist times (A Tale of Two Cities, Oliver Twist, etc) and his observation only 7 of 10 children reached the age of 12 with the rough circumstances. Of course less than 50 years prior, pre-capitalist times it was known only 4 of 10 children survived until 12.
If one imagines the history of mankinds progression through history, life expectancy and standard of living was relatively flat, and horrible, until the rise of capitalism. It generally included man being suppressed and essentially owned at the sufferance of a Pharoah, a King, a Pope, etc. Only the freeing of mankind from the state, the idea of the man being large, the state (or Lord whatever the label incl. der Fuhrer. Communist party, etc) being small, led to the rapid increase in the abundance of modern times made possible through freedom and capitalism
But as our founders discovered, fought and died for this brilliant thought, the unionist, weak sisters, free lunchers, i.e., modern Democrats imagine they can get a better deal casting their lot with the state.
They, and unfortunately we, are in for a very rude awakening. | |
|
| |
Home
login 
