| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:08:03 AM | elmenreich at the risk of having you confused and my brain to explode, why would a reduction in guns, caused by stricter gun control, cause murders to go from 10 to 50 if guns were the problem? Um, there was no reduction in guns. Gun ownership in Ireland actually skyrocketed in the 1970s because of guns flooding in from Libya via Northern Ireland and the IRA. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:15:02 AM | People seem to like America, but not so much their fellow Americans.
People like the freedom to practice their own religion, but don't normally hang out with people who are of a different religion. We like freedom of speech, but don't want to hear things we find offensive. We like the right to bear arms, but restrict certain people of that right. We ristrict those same felons from the right to vote, which may be our most tresured core value. The great frontier was one of our treasures, then people built fences to section it off ridding it of it's frontier status. We love capitalism, but not the fat cats who make 300 times more than their average employee. We take pride in our constitution, but not those who it empowers. We went from having the mystique of Ellis Island to building a wall on the southern border. From the Statue of Liberty to the Patriot Act we have changed as a nation. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:32:46 AM |
elmenreich at the risk of having you confused and my brain to explode, why would a reduction in guns, caused by stricter gun control, cause murders to go from 10 to 50 if guns were the problem?
Um, there was no reduction in guns. Gun ownership in Ireland actually skyrocketed in the 1970s because of guns flooding in from Libya via Northern Ireland and the IRA.
This is exactly what I addressed in post #18. I will repost what I said.
It seems to me that the more gun control legislation we pass, the bigger a black market we create. A ordinary citizens do not shop in the black market, but criminals do. So, when private citizens are no longer able to arm themselves, who is going to have the most potential to do harm to society? The more we have controlled guns, the bigger the problem has become.
What gun control does ( and Elm's post proves) is it INCREASES the demand for guns and makes the sale of guns MORE profitable for CRIMINALS. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:39:52 AM | Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhh, so gun control legislation caused the civil strife in Northern Ireland? Gun control legislation caused the IRA to get weapons from Libya? I'm glad we had your cunning political acumen to grace this topic. Gun control legislation causes civil war. Now I've heard everything.    | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 10:56:24 AM | I think there is an echo here, I am not stating gun laws/gun control affects gun ownership or numbers, I'm stating it adversely affects crime to the detriment of innocent citizens...everywhere it's practiced. For example....
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke.
"Never argue with the uneducated and misinformed.......they will drag you down to their level.....and then beat you with experience." | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:01:21 AM | reminds me of another sage quote:
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
~Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:03:16 AM | | GC, Do you realize that most every post you make has an insult of some sort in it? You will gain no respect if you don't give respect first. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:03:57 AM |
I think there is an echo here, I am not stating gun laws/gun control affects gun ownership or numbers, I'm stating it adversely affects crime to the detriment of innocent citizens...everywhere it's practiced. For example.... But your examples are false. The murder rate in Ireland did NOT rise because of gun control; it rose because of the civil strife in Northern Ireland, which ended up flooding weapons into the ROI, along with 20% unemployment and a rising population.
Basically, your point is moot.  | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:07:03 AM | | If gun control only has control over those who respect the law.... This is not control, It's suicide! | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:32:33 AM |
From the Statue of Liberty to the Patriot Act we have changed as a nation.
Not one of the things you assert supports that conclusion.
The First Amendment guarantees the free exercise of religion and freedom of speech against *the U.S. government,* and as the Supreme Court has extended that guarantee, also against all state governments. Whether some people choose to associate with people of other religions, or whether some like to hear views they consider offensive, has nothing to do with those First Amendment freedoms.
Many Americans not only *like* the right to bear arms, but the Second Amendment also guarantees our right to keep and bear them. Again, though, like other guarantees in the Bill of Rights, this guarantee applies against *the U.S. government.* They also apply against state governments only because the Supreme Court, a series of decisions from the 1880's to the 1970's, has said so. But it has never done this with the Second Am., or with several other provisions in the Bill of Rights. The extent to which states are free to restrict the right of private citizens to keep and bear arms is being decided in federal courts today.
The Court has said many times that the right to vote is "fundamental." But as it's also held, many times, there's nothing unconstitutional about the U.S. or a state depriving someone of any right--even the most fundamental one of all, the right to live--provided it does the depriving by due process of law. That's why states can execute murderers, after it's tried and convicted them. From the beginning, states have had the authority to prohibit felons from voting by law, and that doesn't violate the Constitution in any way.
I won't bother with your comments about fencing the West, or what some people may think about executive salaries, because they're only remotely related to your conclusion, if at all.
The comparison between Ellis Island and the southern border completely ignores the fact that earlier wave of immigration was regulated according to federal laws, while the current one obviously is not. Instead of the controlled process of that time, we now have an unregulated flood which the U.S. government tolerates, in flagrant violation of our immigration laws.
What has *really* changed is that it's become fashionable to strike a world-weary, jaded pose about this country and its supposed fall from grace. That's a load of manure--to put it politely. We are all lucky to live under the greatest combination of laws, personal freedoms, prosperity, and good will the earth has ever seen. A great way to undermine all that is to fail to understand and appreciate it, and so to start to doubt it. Our enemies in the world would like nothing better. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:42:07 AM |
If gun control only has control over those who respect the law.... This is not control, It's suicide! Well, there are very few penalties for violating gun laws. If people got six months in jail for possession of an illegal firearm and up to 15 years in jail for illegally selling a firearm to someone who uses it to commit a felony, gun control might work. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:51:17 AM | I don't know? I just don't think a person using a gun to commit a felony... is even concerned with violating gun laws. If someone wants to commit a felony, and needs a gun to do it, They will find a gun.
To take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens, with the idea of that keeping guns out of the hands of felons, well, I just think that it only keeps the law abiding citizens from being able to protect themselves. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 12:13:04 PM | Our California Governor signed a bill that come the new year, will require anyone who buys ammo at a gun store, to give their thumb print and other info. The idea seems to be, that this will allow the state to keep track of gangs and other low life who buy ammo and how much they buy. Since these same types already buy illegal guns, what makes the state think criminal types will buy ammo legally?
There are literally thousands of federal gun laws on the books, and either they are not being enforced to get the criminals, or prosecutors are cutting deals with criminals, which is akin to a slap on the wrist.
There was a great sheriff in eastern Montana over a dozen years ago who refused to do massive background checks the feds wanted done, because while the feds make the laws they don't fund the laws they create. So the sheriff said there was no way he could do federal background checks since the feds had champagne requests, while the county had a beer budget. To be honest, I have yet to hear of any firearm owner who belongs to any firearms rights group be it the NRA or firearms rights groups, who has committed a crime involving a firearm.
Growing up we knew not to touch the firearms in the house, not because they were dangerous, but because they belonged to our Dad. If I didn't own it, I didn't touch it! Then there was the day to day lessons my parents taught me about personal responsibility. That's what I think many children these days are not getting. My parents never ever made excuses for whatever poor choices I would have made. Instead they made me do the punishment.
Heck, I remember when I was in fifth grade and I shoplifted a copy of Seventeen magazine. Seeing it in my room and knowing they had not given me the money to buy it, they called me on it. My punishment was two fold. Had to return it to the stores manager and then for six months after school I had to spend time in the back yard digging the hole where the pool was going to go in at. Trust me, I learned my lesson.
~Beth~ | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 12:47:57 PM |
Our California Governor signed a bill that come the new year, will require anyone who buys ammo at a gun store, to give their thumb print and other info. The idea seems to be, that this will allow the state to keep track of gangs and other low life who buy ammo and how much they buy. Since these same types already buy illegal guns, what makes the state think criminal types will buy ammo legally? Someone has to buy that ammo. It's not like tons of illegal bullets are coming into the United States from Mexico (excepting, of course, occasional overenthusiastic Cinco de Mayo celebrations).
But I think it's a good idea to keep track of who buys which guns, who owns which guns, who buys which ammunition and who owns which ammunition. Of course, such a plan has to be implemented on a nationwide basis. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 12:51:34 PM | Elmenreich the only thing that causes me to slow down my response to people like you is I do not want to miss an opportunity to express dripping contempt and insult. People like you are the stuff scraped off shoes when one has their car break down in a bad part of Tijuana.
Was that clear? | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 1:00:55 PM | But I think it's a good idea to keep track of who buys which guns, who owns which guns, who buys which ammunition and who owns which ammunition. Of course, such a plan has to be implemented on a nationwide basis.
Yeah, draconian gun laws would work wonders against gun crime. Just like draconian laws work wonders for the illegal drug trade. Yep, that's wise thinking there. Tried and true.
How is monitoring gun and ammunition sales going to stop illegal gun trafficking?
You proposing we seal up the southern border to achieve this too?
Well, there are very few penalties for violating gun laws. If people got six months in jail for possession of an illegal firearm and up to 15 years in jail for illegally selling a firearm to someone who uses it to commit a felony, gun control might work.
Uh huh, just like it works for the illegal drug trade. The people who commit the majority of illegal acts have nothing to lose by doing so, and thus don't give a damm about your laws and restrictions. No, it won't work. Not at all. Not unless you're willing to go the whole distance and make the USA a police state. "Papers please!" Then who is going to protect us against the Protectors?
One of the first thing Adolph did when he seized power was to remove private ownership of firearms. What you're spouting is nothing less than pawn-speak for government power over regular citizens despite the "problem" you want to save us from. Maybe you would feel more comfortable in Britain or Germany or some other European socialist utopia.
Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
Our California Governor signed a bill that come the new year, will require anyone who buys ammo at a gun store, to give their thumb print and other info.
Another good reason to never move back to the Peoples' Republic of California.
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 1:13:56 PM | Elmenreich are you really a teacher? Are you really unaware of the massive amounts of ammo coming in illegally from Mexico? Do you know we live in a Constitutional Republic? Are you aware of the limited government the founding fathers designed?
~Beth~ | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 1:17:35 PM |
Of course, such a plan has to be implemented on a nationwide basis.
Yes, of course--nationwide, by all means. We should make almost every restriction of personal liberty federal law, if we're serious about making the hoi polloi do what's best for them. You might care to tell us how you'd rate the chances of Congress passing a law which did what you suggest--or if it passed, its chances of surviving a constitutional challenge. Only knowing a little about the Second Amendment, I'd guess that after Heller, a federal law restricting sales and ownership of both firearms and ammunition might well violate it by infringing the private right to keep and bear arms. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 1:31:14 PM | | You have it completely backward, ZenBeth. Guns and ammo are going INTO Mexico from America, not from Mexico. Ammunition and guns are very easy to obtain in America, and very difficult to obtain in Mexico, where guns are illegal. Please keep up with current events before you correct someone next time. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 1:51:47 PM |
Well, there are very few penalties for violating gun laws
That's not true. California, for example, has hundreds of laws that make various firearms violations misdemeanors or felonies. And its courts send thousands of people to jail and prison every year for violating them. In many cases, criminal statutes set the range of permissible sentences or specify minimum terms a convicted person must serve. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 2:14:08 PM | | I meant that the penalties are not severe enough, not that the actual number of laws against gun ownership is small. We should be putting more people in jail for guns, and fewer in jail for drugs. Heck, they should hand out years by the number of pounds of ammunition someone gets caught with, the way they do with drugs. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 2:19:31 PM |
Elmenreich wrote:You have it completely backward, ZenBeth. Guns and ammo are going INTO Mexico from America, not from Mexico. Ammunition and guns are very easy to obtain in America, and very difficult to obtain in Mexico, where guns are illegal. Please keep up with current events before you correct someone next time.
So the recent articles in the LATimes and San Diego Union- Tribune about gangs smuggling ammo from Mexico back into the states for gang use was wrong? And you ignored my other questions about you being a teacher and if you know this is a Constitutional government and that the founding fathers didnt want the big brother government we now have. ~Beth~ | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 2:23:09 PM | But that ammunition mostly originates in the United States to begin with. That's how Mexican gangs arm themselves.
I don't care about your questions about my personal life. Yes, this is a dating website, but quite frankly, we're never going to date. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 2:32:40 PM | I don't care about your questions about my personal life. Yes, this is a dating website, but quite frankly, we're never going to date.
I see you have the same sense of civility you displayed so clearly to us before. I hope and trust you'll show us more of it. | |
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| Do you like the USA?
Posted: 11/5/2009 2:43:49 PM |
I meant that the penalties are not severe enough
Oh--now that you put it that way, I see. But unless you know in some detail just what those penalties are now, it's hard to give much weight to your opinion about how well they fit the crimes. | |
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