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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/8/2009 3:12:25 PM |
why the concept of "dumb celebs" should even be the norm at all
Obviously they're not hired for their intellect. One look at Pam Anderson and or Paris Hilton and/or 99% of celebrities you see out there. There are exceptions of course, but brains is NOT the primary criteria. But if that's where you (or anyone else for that matter) is looking for role models, boy are you in the wrong place. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/8/2009 3:24:17 PM | RE Msg: 51 by Bluesman2008:
Obviously they're not hired for their intellect. One look at Pam Anderson and or Paris Hilton and/or 99% of celebrities you see out there. There are exceptions of course, but brains is NOT the primary criteria. But if that's where you (or anyone else for that matter) is looking for role models, boy are you in the wrong place. Yes, they're not hired for their brains. But they are hired for their sex appeal, and sex sells. As a role model for brainy people, they suck. As a role model for morality, they aren't an automatic choice. But as a role model for making a lot of money when you're young? They're great. That's what young people are looking for, people who've made a lot of money when they're young, that they can emulate, and hopefully make a lot of money as well. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/8/2009 7:23:45 PM | | And that is where precisely all breaks down. Money does not equal happiness. It does not. But the school system is the right hand of the status quo. It teaches obedience to some questionable values. But it is hard to break down silly egocentricism. It really is ..and for this fact I do not blame the school system. How do you combat the ego? How do you combat the ten or more years of young adulthood? Aaaaah. Live and learn. Which does not happen as often as it should. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/8/2009 7:57:23 PM | I have read the posts on here, and I am having a moment, where I wonder if we are all living in the same country...(aside from the people who obviously don't.)
In the city that I live in, there are charter schools, magnet schools, and "public schools". From elementary to high school, there is a choice as to which school a child can go to, (within a deadline, and some schools have waiting lists), and each school specializes in some area of academics. It is an agreement in the county, as to what school will specialize in what area, (arts, math & science, world politics, language arts, special education, etc, etc.) and each school spends their funding to develop the area that the school specializes in.
Yes, they are "technically" geographically designated schools, but always there is a choice. One merely has to put in the registration for the school of their choice.
As for dumbing down the curriculum for educational inclusiveness...don't most schools have remedial, average, honors, and accelerated classes? Isn't education progressing, rather than regressing, since it is far easier for children to advance to a higher class in the area where they are strongest, regardless of the current grade they are in?
For me, myself, I don't remember given the option to take Algebra and Geometry in middle school. Or Spanish I.
I don't remember the option to take college accredited Calculus and Chemistry in junior or senior in high school.
So I have to disagree, with the majority of the views on our current education system in this thread. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/8/2009 10:30:35 PM |
Frankly, why is your country's schools so fragmented? What a nightmare.
When you say fragmented, what do you mean exactly? Do you mean that each school specializing in a certain area, in which each student is given a choice, to nurture their natural proclivities?
but what I think they need most isn't so much to be overhauled but drop the dead weight that makes up so much of the modern educational system
What do you mean by, "dead weight"? | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/9/2009 8:11:12 AM | We could use the "Forrest Gump" analogy. Too dumb to fail, being in the right place at the wrong time, etc, etc.
I've seen some posters on here claiming that "real life" doesn't need all that education. A waste of time for a lot of it. Some of the comments I've read have simply flabbergasted me. Hairless baboons commenting on how well they are doing in "real life".
You are given, for free, enough education to get along with your peer group in society. To "better yourself" you need more education, in order to get along with the next rung of the peer group.
Try this idea on for size. You are using technology and ideas that have been thought out and developed by people who are NOT "just like you". They have the education (in whatever form) to develope and integrate new ideas and technology into society. If they don't have the whole ball of wax, they know people within their "peer group" who DO have the education. Working together, they can accomplish miracles.
A lot of guys figure they can, say, build a motor. They are "smart"...for their peer group. They can make a "good living" at it. A machine can do the SAME job, more efficiently, and without all the labour problems. These "mechanics" can only bolt on parts and pieces that far smarter people have developed and created. Anyone could do it by taking a few simple courses at a high school during the evenings.
Often they have no idea about stress tolerances, and lubrication viscosity, and heat management. That is already designed into the part they are so knowingly going to mount on their vehicles.
Let's try something. Ask a mechanic to MAKE a sparkplug. He can't. He doesn't have the education to do it. BUT...someone did it...mostly by some hard thinking and working with others in order to produce one that would work safely in an internal combustion engine.
The simple filament out of a lightbulb. The first 2000 failed and they were made by hand! But that last one worked! Could YOU make a filament for a lightbulb today in your kitchen or garage? Probably not. Not because you don't have the things to do it...remember, the people who made the first ones did it without a lot of fancy machines or the availability of all kinds of raw materials available to them....so you could do it. IF you had the education to do so. But you cannot.
You use a computer. Big whoop. You can't build one. Others far more educated did that. they wrote the "language" for computers. You simply get to use the end result of years of hard work. then grumble when an error message shows up on this technological wonder that your fumble fingered efforts have screwed up in some way. There IS no "computer error"...only operator error.
This is why we give the kids so many different courses. We don't know where their talents lie. Perhaps the kid sitting three rows back has some raw mathematical talent that could be developed...but won't be because of the current "no child left behind" program. He can't be pushed to see how far he can go. He gets only the "dumbed down" version that the slow kids can pass too. He gets bored in class and isn't motivated to excel. Pulls off an "average" grade and never develops that talent that he has.
Actively seeking out talent, and developing it should be the main priority of schooling. But simply getting the "dumbed down" version of an education seems to have taken root.
Only those who have the will and the drive (and money) to get further education have a chance of developing their talents. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/9/2009 8:51:24 AM | ^^ yes in a utopian world we could bring everyone up to their potential in the public school system.
we don't live in that world
we are trying to cope with the world we live in ... the real world so to speak.
where kids are discouraged for various reasons.
if we address those reasons within our budget restraints ... great.
most often we fall short on the budget
[now none of the rest of this rant is directed directly at you or actually anyone in particular ... despite some previous posters thinking everything is directed at them I stupidly bothered to reply to them but refuse to continue in that non productive direction ... people should realize that arguing someone's opinion is a total waste of space and time ]
some seem to think we need corporal extortion and the fear approach
[discipline implies that though isn't just that]
its been proven only to work with some and not with others.
problem still is not solved
we still have the dropout ... delinquent ... gang crime problem
solving this is part of the school system responsibility in society
hence my babysitting comment that some don't seem to be able to comprehend beyond their own shallow perceptions of babysitting.
yes self motivation is always the strongest success guide
everyone doesn't have it for various social and family and genetic reasons.
its great to dream of all equal and all succeeding ...
its not reality ... to think its possible is delusional
hence.... we need to compromise.
compromise equals ... dumbing down
All I was doing is trying to simplify the explanation
[if someone wants to make it personal, I get a bit pissed at that sometimes
possibly a product of my edge of delinquent past in the city
apologies to anyone else reading these posts.]
I do understand the motivation of delinquents and gangs since my childhood neighbours were directly involved.
If you didn't empathise your life could be in danger
These are the real world educations we are competing with in our public school systems.
Yes you want excellence ...
yes you want all to succeed.
never going to happen for all ... so ... compromise happens
always will .... we just need to keep trying
as constant change is the only thing we can be sure will be
every generation will need different considerations and compromises
some dumbing down will always be necessary
doesn't mean we need to bring it to the lowest level
it wouldn't work and we know that
like all other parts of life there is no easy formula that works everywhere,
you've been dumbed down too much yourself if you think there is.
As for solutions ... this OP ... was not asking for solution ... was only asking why and assuming lack of knowledge was lack of intelligence ... which it is not.
[for an opinion on that if you care.... a reward system is the only thing I can think of that would possible make a kind of almost universal solution]
the real world does reward success with goods and services
maybe schools should do the same
kids [especially very young ones] cannot understand waiting until the future for the reward of education
they so often [much like dogs] only understand immediate reward
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/9/2009 8:54:43 AM | We are all dumbed down.
15,000 years ago any adult human would have known how to feed and clothe himself from the land. How to braid a line and set snares, find edible roots, construct a seep, skin an animal and tan the hide, to make the stone or wood or bone tool to achieve a task.
The mark of civilization is specialization.
So why is it dumb to utilize the specialists that have grown up in the human ecology around you?
Perhaps it is shortsighted, but only from a perspective that encompasses a future one is unlikely to see.
Humans have been gambling on civilization since they planted the first field.
So far, it's a pretty good bet.
Actively seeking out talent, and developing it should be the main priority of schooling. But simply getting the "dumbed down" version of an education seems to have taken root.
This just produces another generation of specialists.
It's the individuals who have the personal drive to persist against conventional wisdom that produce the sea changes in the human ecology. Galileo or Edison or Einstein or the Wrights are remembered because their "manias" drove them in the direction of truth. But lots of people have died still trying to perfect perpetual motion. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/9/2009 9:35:11 AM | Ah... To be honest, if I were to contribute to this thread, I'd end up writing several essays.
As a teacher of almost 14 years now, I've seen a lot of things going wrong, not just with our children, but with society at large that has really saddened me.
I think scorpiomover summed it up quite well in another thread pertaining to the "over success" of a Civilization. Here in the West, we have everything we need, even though there are huge chunks of Humanity that have virtually nothing. And as such, we're becoming fatter, lazier and dumber.
The main thing that brought down the highly successful Roman Empire, was the Empire itself, in a swathe of corruption, sleaze and scandal. Looks like the West has a damn good chance of going down in exactly the same fashion (don't people read History books anymore?).
So... God help us all.
One caveat perhaps, not that I'm a practising Christian or anything, is that my folks were always banging on about how the Bible talks about how "the meek shall inherit the Earth". Well, with the way we're going, that might just happen. So maybe it's not so bad after all.  | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:37:02 PM |
The main thing that brought down the highly successful Roman Empire, was the Empire itself, in a swathe of corruption, sleaze and scandal. Looks like the West has a damn good chance of going down in exactly the same fashion (don't people read History books anymore?).
I read a lot of history and especially a lot about antiquity.
There was corruption , sleaze and scandal in the late Roman Empire but then again there was corruption , sleaze , and scandal in the early Roman Empire too. Actually , that's what formed the empire in the first place. That was just a way of life for them. The eventual "fading to black" of the empire was the result of a lot more than scandal , sleave , and corruption. If anything , those would have been minor irritants. The lack of stable government , lording over a restless population , a lack of cash , and incredible demographic changes had the biggest effects on the state of the Roman Empire. It's almost romantic to think otherwise and it makes for a good fable but the corruption and scandal was not really much of a big deal simply because it was impressed indelibly into the Roman government machinery from day one anyway. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/10/2009 11:09:08 PM | Children mirror what they see and hear at home. if education is a priority and the parents insist on school work being done and done well the child will usually grow up with good priorities. In our home television is a treat and not something children watch daily and certainly not for hours at a time. Texting isn't allowed. And the only computer use allowed is homework related. Heck you aren't even allowed to single date until you are in college. Being a hands on parent is not a hobby but a profession!
~Beth~ | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/11/2009 9:29:45 AM | The teaching of "thinking" is now a lost art. Simple,,,and we as a society,,,want things "easy". Think of the technology that has come about to make things easy,,,,, a GPS unit now for your vehicle,,,so that you don't get lost????? Of course with that, you get people listening to it when it tells them to turn left into a lake. Seriously. And they do it,,,because,,,,well IT told them too!!!!
Universities in the States have now admitted they are failing their students,,,feeding them info,,,telling them to repeat,,,and boom,,,they have a degree,,,,,so they can get a job that requires it. Free thinkers,,,,people that question,,,,have been frowned upon in the last 15-20 years by our education systems. I repeat,,,,systems. There are still educators out there that understand the value of the "thinker",,,but because those "educators" are also being taught in universities,,,,these good educators are now become less and less. And so the cycle goes.
My daughter was taught from a very young age NEVER to accept anything from anyone,,,,and to question what she feels she needs to,,,,with intelligence and respect of course. Some of her "teachers" had a very hard time with that,,,and I had to ask them why in numerous parent/teacher meetings. Their answer,,,,,"because I'm her teacher". Ummmmmm,,,,,wrong answer!!!! Just like it is wrong for any parent to answer their children with "because I said so". Oh,,,the minority of her teachers loved her,,,,"keeping them on their toes" which in turn made them better teachers,,,and very,very careful of the what they taught as "facts".
Our society breeds followers. Our education system is just part of it. Our parenting skills are just as much to blame as anything. Got a problem with whom our young are looking up to????? Then for pete's sake explain to them that bambi on the tube is just that,,,, a bambi. She's there to look good,,,,and that's about it. She is NOT a role model. Teach your children this before they hit the age 10 and you will be better off.
The other thing that is now being taught within our systems and society is that "life is fair" and everyone is being treated on the same playing field. It is now reaching into our work force,,,,unions being a major player in such. Well,,,,if ya teach that in elementary school,,,,,,,that's what you're gonna get when they become adults.
Keep droppin the bar,,,,and they will lower themselves to your expectations. It's what you/we are asking for,,,,,no?????? | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/11/2009 6:01:56 PM | As for the fall of the Western Roman Empire ....
the eastern hung on for another 6 or 8 hundred years ...
The western was run by crazies in the end period ...
inbreeding and poisoned by too much lead
they put lead in their wine to sweeten it ... and drank it out of lead goblits ...
the amount of lead in the bones of the ruling class was 3 to 5 times higher than we thought even possible before studying the little remains we have found.
hard to run a government when you are all going crazy. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/11/2009 10:30:07 PM |
We have a 99% literacy rate. Far higher than any period in world history. The sky is not falling.
I would agree with this but only to a point. As 60to70 pointed out above , that most people can read at all is not proof that they can read well or even satisfactorily. Granted we don't need everybody to be a scholar. On the other hand , one of the trends in our culture over the last thirty years has been the rise of pseudo-science , conspiracy theory nonsense , a discarding of scientific enquiry by the masses , and a general malaise where critical thinking is concerned. By no means am I attributing all of this to a relaxation of standards but that same relaxation has not helped one bit. While relaxing standards we've also introduced crack-pot ideas about learning that have been useless at best and incredibly damaging at worst ("Whole learning" and such) Applying politically-motivated and unproven psychological ideas to the classroom has been quite possibly the biggest mistake we could have made. We've barely even begun to correct these silly ideas either. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/12/2009 1:34:03 PM |
We have a 99% literacy rate. Far higher than any period in world history. The sky is not falling. Russia and Mongolia have a better literacy rate than that. It's really not a big deal for statistics to say you have a high literacy rate anymore.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_lit_tot_pop-education-literacy-total-population
Besides, it doesn't mean much. The UK has a 99% literacy rate. Yet I've met people in their late 20s who couldn't read or write, in the nation's capital. Is it really a boast to say that people in Washington cannot read or write? | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/12/2009 7:44:15 PM |
I would agree with this but only to a point. As 60to70 pointed out above , that most people can read at all is not proof that they can read well or even satisfactorily. Granted we don't need everybody to be a scholar. On the other hand , one of the trends in our culture over the last thirty years has been the rise of pseudo-science , conspiracy theory nonsense , a discarding of scientific enquiry by the masses , and a general malaise where critical thinking is concerned. By no means am I attributing all of this to a relaxation of standards but that same relaxation has not helped one bit. While relaxing standards we've also introduced crack-pot ideas about learning that have been useless at best and incredibly damaging at worst ("Whole learning" and such) Applying politically-motivated and unproven psychological ideas to the classroom has been quite possibly the biggest mistake we could have made. We've barely even begun to correct these silly ideas either.
Its but the latest variation of the same "trouble with kids these days" arguments older generations have been makeing the case for since recorded history. We would still be living in caves if any of it were EVER true.
Crack-pot ideas like Scientology didn't get its start 30 years ago. Its foundations were laid in the 1950's along with dozens of other early new age concepts. Which in turn were mirrored in earlier movements by the likes of Aleister Crowley. We have always had con-men, cults and crackpots praying on weak minds. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/12/2009 9:04:11 PM | RE Msg: 72 by TwinkiMilton:
Its but the latest variation of the same "trouble with kids these days" arguments older generations have been makeing the case for since recorded history. We would still be living in caves if any of it were EVER true.
Crack-pot ideas like Scientology didn't get its start 30 years ago. Its foundations were laid in the 1950's along with dozens of other early new age concepts. Which in turn were mirrored in earlier movements by the likes of Aleister Crowley. We have always had con-men, cults and crackpots praying on weak minds. I think most would agree that there were people in every generation who were easily persuaded, and there were always times in history when large groups were easily persuaded. But those led to wars and massacres, or witchcraft trials that had no basis, and were justified by "of course she denies being a witch, only a true witch would deny being one" or the dunking stool, "if she drowns, she's innocent, if she lives, then no human could survive this, so she's a witch and she burns". We are supposed to be moving away from these sorts of atrocities. How can we hope to achieve a better future, if we are all saying it's human nature to be stupid and kill and burn thousands? Are we doomed to continue to have world war after world war after world war?
Education has long been said to be the answer, for if we can educate our young to think and reason well, then they will not be lulled into believing false stereotypes. But if they are badly educated in their youth, then education has not failed them. We have, by not educating them in the first place. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/12/2009 10:15:50 PM |
Its but the latest variation of the same "trouble with kids these days" arguments older generations have been makeing the case for since recorded history. We would still be living in caves if any of it were EVER true.
Crack-pot ideas like Scientology didn't get its start 30 years ago. Its foundations were laid in the 1950's along with dozens of other early new age concepts. Which in turn were mirrored in earlier movements by the likes of Aleister Crowley. We have always had con-men, cults and crackpots praying on weak minds.
The basis of my argument is not that children today are going to hell in a handbasket because schools are failing to teach them rudimentary skills. My argument is that educational systems today have taught them too much crap. It's political indoctrination whether it comes from the left or the right.
In some states in the US you've got school boards trying to get ID incorporated into science classes. In other states you've got boards that will try any new "learning" idea because it somehow seems to make sense despite how counter-intuitive it is right on the surface. I still recall watching one woman on television arguing that we didn't need to teach history classes but rather we simply needed to give children "the tools" to teach themselves history. That's tantamount to educational quackery. The kids already know how to read so if history was a subject children naturally gravitated towards investigating we wouldn't need to include it as part of a curriculum in the first place.
My own grade ten history classes were more like political diatribes from a French feminist. Half the time we were learning what went on for society in general and the other half of the time we were learning the names of important women in Quebec's feminist history. So be it. The point is not that there's no place for what that teacher insisted on drilling into our heads but rather that it should never have become any sort of overall focus for an entire school year of history classes.
Now when it comes to subjects like mathematics , I have no particular problem with what's being taught. It's too difficult to try to infuse some political rhetoric into a mathematics class but that's not to say that people haven't tried. Remember "new math" ?
In any case , it's the politicizing of education that is "dead weight" which is in dire need of being shed. I'm well aware that crack-pot ideas are nothing new. What is new (and also the problem as it were) is that we've allowed crack-pots with unproven pet-theories access to our curriculum. Pop-psychology is a chicken/egg matter when it comes to who influenced who first , but its coupling with mass media has definitely had a detrimental effect on our children's ability to participate in the economy of tomorrow. Dumbing-down the curriculum is not just a handy scapegoat , it's the conspicuous result of ubiquitous political agendas having an effect on the classroom. | |
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| The dumbing down of society and its impact on children and public mindset towards intelligence
Posted: 11/13/2009 8:48:59 PM | | Oh there is so much to teach after the fundamentals of reading, writing and mathematics. And it will never be learned correctly in the present instituition of Education and schools. No way. There has to be another way. At least in the earlier years. I do not have a problem with university level education but I have a huge problem with the death of learning that happens in elementary and high school education. Dumbing down isn't even the argument. The whole rickety system of elementary education is where the fault lies. Always has. New math, new reading, new anything etc. Crap. Teach them to read and write and then something else after about age eight or nine. | |
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