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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:10:43 PM |
No wonder we barely see mention of it in the news. The leftist media would HATE for people to see that responsible gun ownership puts a stop to violent crime.
Author: jwg86
Actually the article (in the NYT - which is about as left as it gets in the US) emphasizes her training to attack with a weapon - as opposed to just passing guns out to everyone and hoping for the best. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:18:00 PM | I wonder how many American Terrorists there are walking free in the United States right now simply because they're Baptist or some other Christian religion... with white skin... Probably a lot, just like there are probably a lot of Muslims in America who fall into that category...People still have the right to freely express themselves but when you Kill 13 people and wound 30 more you actually become the Terrorist which you praise
As for praising a terrorist, I'm not... and no one here is doing that either. We're just not applying that label to further some cause or belief system or to spread neurotic views to others.
I do find it odd though... if I'm not agreeing with him being a terrorist, then I'm suddenly lumped into the less than savoury category of praising terrorists... go figure! | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:18:13 PM | Hasan is a POS and a traitor to his country and a weak spineless idiot not worthy of the uniform he wore. Some people picked on him, ya this is the kind of puss I want next to me on the battle field.
Never been to Iraq or Afghanistan, heard some stories. He was about to be sent, oh it would have been so bad, he is a shrink, he would be in an office on a FOB.
But he damn sure let the military put him through school.
I have been 3 times and have hundreds of friends who have been over, they should have let him bleed out right there. He is worse than the terrorist he is a traitor. Hope they get him well so they can hang him.
Stop making excuses for this POS. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:21:53 PM |
That right there shows me enough
my anger isn't misdirected ~ I know of my own experiences and my anger is appropriately directed
Right. I am sure you have interacted with lots of Muslims in a personal level. Have a TON of personal experiences to back your opinion up. I have plenty of friends who are Muslim, and never found fault with them or saw them act in an unsavory way or express radical ideas.
But hey, maybe you are an active part of their community as well and see a different side? | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 1:05:08 AM | There seem to be two camps building here...those that can't help themselves but use Muslim and Terrorist in the same sentence over and over again, and those who actually wish to seek answers. Of the 926 documented hate groups/terrorists organizations currently in the US, nearly all are of white european origin. We've seen their sentiments expressed in this forum.
Meanwhile, in the real world, people are actively seeking answers and trying to come to terms with the effects of war on our troops and caregivers of those troops.
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/combat-stress-and-the-fort-hood-gunman/
To seek the simplistic "terrorist", POS, or MUSLIM labels, is a disservice to the millions of those who have served who need treatment and the caregivers who give treatment that need their own. Secondary Stress Disorder is a real affliction. PTSD is a real affliction. Those who deny it either have it, or have not a clue what war and killing really are. I've reached the age in my life where among my just those I know, who served in war zones, are offing themselves at the rate of one a year from untreated or self medicated PTSD. I would venture to guess, that by standards presented here, suicide is also an act of terrorism. (And a cautionary note for the macho, angry vets here...Macho don't fare well with PTSD. Ya'll tend to die from your own hands BECAUSE of your "toughness" in not getting help.)
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/87280.php
We have terrorized millions of our service people by tossing them into wars that never should have been fought. The veterans of these wars will be committing domestic violence, violent acts in public, abusing substances, and killing themselves for decades to come. Their caregivers will also be suffering for decades to come. The real questions that need to be addressed are how do we get care for all who need it and how do we care for the caregivers. With over 5000 Veterans and Psychiatrists committing suicide each year, perhaps we need to address this as a preventable pandemic. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 2:17:13 AM | We've nurtured a society of fanatics against terrorist attacks. I have a sister-in-law that has been in Canada for over forty years. She's originally from Greece and because of her place of birth, she's looked at closely when traveling to the United States. She's mentioned to me that it's calmed a little in the passing of years, but at the beginning of the whole homeland security thing, she could sense the hysteria bubbling just below the surface for international air travelers.
It's easier to neatly blame horrific incidents such as this on terrorism rather than admit that there might be a problem in the world that is not so easily managed. It sweeps things under the rugs while letting people sleep with their windows open at night... | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 5:01:20 AM | One slightly silver lining to this horrific dark cloud is the growing attention on the inadequacy of mental health care for those who need in in the military and for those who try to practice it. Perhaps out of this will come a concerted effort to do far better for those we have sent into harms' way and guarantee the best and most timely treatment for all, caregivers included.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/us/08stress.html?ref=todayspaper
snip..
Major Hasan was one of a thin line of military therapists trying to hold off a rising tide of need. So far this year, 117 soldiers on active duty were reported to have committed suicide. The Army has only 408 psychiatrists — military, civilian and contractors — serving about 553,000 active-duty troops around the world. As a result, some soldiers home from war, suffering from nightmares and panic attacks, say they have waited almost a year to see a psychiatrist.
Many military professionals, meanwhile, describe crushing schedules with 10 or more patients a day, most struggling with devastating trauma or mutilated bodies that are the product of war and the highly advanced care that kept them alive.
Some of those hired to heal others end up needing help themselves. Some go home at night too depressed to talk to their children. Others, like Bret A. Moore, a former Army psychologist at Fort Hood, ultimately quit.
“I planned for a career in the military, but I burned out” after about five years, he said.
The biggest problem, Dr. Moore said, was “compassion fatigue.”
“I thought that was a bogus phenomenon, but it’s true,” he said. “You become detached, you start to feel like you can’t connect with your patients, you run out of empathy. And the last thing you want to do is talk about it with someone else. It really puts a wedge between you and loved ones.”
Whatever the facts in Major Hasan’s case, some therapists who work with the military agree that the tragedy is likely to have a “lasting impact on how we look at mental health providers,” said Dr. Martin Paulus, a psychiatrist at the University of California, San Diego, and the Veterans Affairs San Diego Healthcare System.
The Army has added to their ranks in recent years, as the number of soldiers with the diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder has climbed to 34,000. But the shooting has raised a pressing question: Who counsels the counselors? Dr. Moore and other therapists who have worked in the military or for Veterans Affairs said that mental health evaluations of therapists themselves were virtually nonexistent.
“I have worked with the Army, the Navy, the V.A., and I’m not aware of any formal, systematic process to evaluate professionals,” said Dr. Andy Morgan, a psychiatrist at the National Center for P.T.S.D.
At Walter Reed, where Major Hasan was in training until recently, Lt. Col. Brett Schneider, a psychiatrist, described a complicated system of checks and balances, including a training committee with superiors and civilians who evaluate residents and mental health staff members.
“There is a lot more built into the processes to keep tabs on each other,” said Colonel Schneider, who spoke on the condition that he not be asked any questions about Major Hasan. “If somebody is starting to get to the point where these things are a problem, there are a number of ways we can intervene.”
Generally, though, the military, like many large civilian employers, relies on self-evaluation and voluntary employee-assistance programs.
“Once training is over, you’re basically on your own,” Dr. Paulus said.
At Fort Hood, the nation’s largest military base, Major Hasan, like other therapists, would have had to manage many patients with severe combat stress. At his relatively high rank, he would have been expected to seek help on his own if he thought he needed it, experts said.
The base sees continual traffic in and out of war zones, and the work conditions are especially stressful, according to at least one report provided to the Army.
Dr. Stephen M. Stahl, a psychiatrist at the University of California, San Diego, who worked on the report, said the base’s program for soldiers returning from war simply lacked the staff it needed. He said there were about 15 psychiatrists on staff, treating hundreds of inpatients and outpatients. Generally, the psychiatrists did not do therapy but prescribed medication.
“They’re so under-resourced that people just don’t end up getting enough care,” Dr. Stahl said.
He added: “It’s a pretty damn stressful place to be. I think it’s a horrible place to practice psychiatry.”
continued at link.... | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 6:23:35 AM |
So far this year, 117 soldiers on active duty were reported to have committed suicide. The Army has only 408 psychiatrists — military, civilian and contractors — serving about 553,000 active-duty troops around the world. As a result, some soldiers home from war, suffering from nightmares and panic attacks, say they have waited almost a year to see a psychiatrist.
In other words, aside from the fancy, expensive toys, things really are little better than they were 35 years ago. No wonder Hasan was trying to get out, instead finding himself being sent into the combat theater. It sounded to me from earlier stories that he tried to seek help. At the very least - what the hell were all his fellow mili-shrinks thinking when they heard him say strange stuff? Seems they just turned and walked away.
I thought we were supposed to be giving our returning military the very best care money could buy? 35-40 years from now all of these folks will be complaining about what a crappy system the VA is, how their complaints were ignored, broken promises, etc... Provided they survive. We really haven't learned a damned thing. I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 6:27:19 AM | If you think that these statistics contradict what I said, you would be wrong, and wrong because of how you are interpreting this data. By far, most of the crime within the black community is black on black crime. Because most of my relatives are white (some are not), they are more likely, statistically, to be, if they are the victims of crime, victimized by white people. There is a lot of other information that clarifies these statistics, but I just can't be bothered. I have a least learned one thing, as long as someone wants to maintain certain views, they will, and nothing anyone says can change that
lady i have friends of all races and religons so dont give me that load of crap about " my views" the fact is u dont know me or my views. my best friend is black, wow those views i hold so dear really let me down i guess. sure if u are white and a family member attacks you then u are right, but if u are walking down the street and a stranger attacks you then u are most likely wrong | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 9:45:15 AM | No Tarah0128, you missed the boat on that one. I was referencing the VAtech Cho and implying that if This guy was a terrorist, he must have been a racist according to someone's warped logic. Why you would bring a comedian into this is beyond my understanding. WAY off in left-field and off topic. At least when I googled Margaret Cho, I saw that she was hot. Meh. Something good came of this, lol.
One slightly silver lining to this horrific dark cloud is the growing attention on the inadequacy of mental health care for those who need in in the military and for those who try to practice it. Perhaps out of this will come a concerted effort to do far better for those we have sent into harms' way and guarantee the best and most timely treatment for all, caregivers included.
As a whole, mental health gets shoved under the rug and is the first medical service to go when budgets get tough. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 10:24:28 AM | Message 10 ...
The fix~ Remove muslims from the US armed forces. No doubt because ALL Muslims serving in the US armed forces are dangerous and enemies ... right?
Message 15 ...
... if we didn't have so many liberal minded anti-defence people in our nation. More people would join the Armed Forces ... So it's only liberal-minded people who are "anti-defense" (whatever that might be) and if they didn't exist, more people would join the armed forces ... right?
Message 22 ...
I don't know many liberal minded "anti-defense" people although I am a long time liberal. I do know a great many liberal minded "anti-getting involved in ridiculous and expensive wars that loose a great many of our men and women for no apparent reason" though. Thank you, "wudger" ... I would have to agree with that 100%.
Message 29 ...
I guess I need the question "why" answered. My cousins' son was badly wounded at the melee at Fort Hood. How could an obviously educated person murder so many people he did not know. What benefit did he gain my shooting my relative? If this crime was carried out to protest a war none of us are fond of, why shoot innocent young soldiers? Why does anyone do irrational things ... "go postal" ... when they lose it? At what point does a person "lose it"? There is no set norm for clarifying that because we're all different and have our own point of fragility.
With all I've been through in the past 4 years, I'm acutely aware of how close all of us might be sometimes to doing something horribly irrational and unexplainable. Does anyone posting in this thread know exactly what it would take to put them past the point of "rational"? If you can answer that, you'll know why it happened.
Message 40 ...
The US has used more than 40 veto power in UN to support Israel while the rest of world regarded it barbaric atrocity from Isreal side. Why is US bend backward to support Israel to anger the rest of world? I've often wondered the same. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 10:54:01 AM |
Just out of curiosity, does the usa military have a lot of overly christian types in it?
has there been cases of discrimination by the evangelicals against non christians and other demoniminations?
I think the answers to those would be yes, and yes. I read in yesterday's paper in fact that this Hasan guy had been discriminated against by returning soldiers; his car had been keyed and the bumper sticker that said, "Allah is Love" on his car had been torn off. That to me indicates that you're not going to feel very welcome with your beliefs in that particular area.....at least it would make me feel that way.
I don't personally blame the guy for not wanting to go occupy and/or fight other Arabs and other Muslims. But then at the same time, why join the US military in the first place then (I think he took advantage of it paying for part of his education)? And also are there not other more sane civilized ways to go about refusing to be deployed? There must be some procedure. Even if it meant a jail sentence and/or a dishonorable discharge, it's better than this.
Personally I think he got into the more radical views or interpretations of Islam, probably in more recent years since 9/11 (he had been in the military since before 9/11, I think), and he probably got into it over the computer and just through books and so forth, on his own. Also he obviously suffered some sort of mental illness to go along with all that, something (depression, a breakdown, what-have-you) which, when combined with notice of deployment, caused him to go off the deep end. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 11:27:24 AM |
But then at the same time, why join the US military in the first place then (I think he took advantage of it paying for part of his education)?
Look at his job. He wanted to help the very people who keyed his car and taunted him to deal with their PTSD and other issues upon returning.
This is going down a LOT like the Harris/Klebold shooting. He was victimized and pushed to the limit. Did he handle it right? No. Some people snap sooner than others. However, what was done to him will be forgotten. Only his snapping will be remembered. The media is good like that. The fact that he is Muslim just gave them the out they needed. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 12:49:05 PM |
Just out of curiosity, does the usa military have a lot of overly christian types in it? Yes.
has there been cases of discrimination by the evangelicals against non christians and other demoniminations? Yes.
My daughter was a Lt. in the Air Force and she told me that even though she is a non-believer, she discovered quickly that it's best not to let others find out if you are not "religious".
She attended church so she would not suffer the consequences of them eventually finding out she was non-religious. She said she would just go sit in the back and act like she's praying when they do and don't get involved in any of the extra activities and you can get by without having any problems. So she can't be true to herself and has to keep watching over her shoulder.
I wonder if it's time for us to enact a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to the religion as well. Problem is ... in the case with Hasan, they would have seen him going to the Mosque and in the situation with my daughter, if they are really watching her, then they wouldn't see her going to church either ... although I don't know why one absolutely MUST attend church in order to be considered "religious". | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 3:39:37 PM |
She attended church so she would not suffer the consequences of them eventually finding out she was non-religious. She said she would just go sit in the back and act like she's praying when they do and don't get involved in any of the extra activities and you can get by without having any problems. So she can't be true to herself and has to keep watching over her shoulder.
That's just downright sad. Sounds like a scene right out of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". As far as your last line - for some people and organizations, sadly, appearances really are everything. | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 3:45:19 PM |
I wonder why a psychiatrist, the very person with the tools to deal with issues that lead to these kinds of events, didn't seek assistance in a manner that would resolve his issues.
Vicarious trauma.
Professionals who work in this type of environment are at risk from suffereing from it unfortunately! :P | |
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| Fort Hood shooting - What are the questions? What are the answers?
Posted: 11/8/2009 3:50:01 PM |
Today. He joined twenty years ago -- which would make it 1989.
Just in time for the First Gulf War.
Having said that, I accept your comment that the timeframe after September 11th, 2001 may not have influenced his decision to join.
It still begs the question though; 'Why did he stay?' | |
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