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 outofthedesert
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 376
Taking his name....? Page 16 of 18    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18)
Rather a sad commentary that men and women have been so mistreated, had so much heartache that there is the need to be antagonistic towards each other. Men have lost control and some women have found an over abundance of it. People become Pavloved by the actions that have continued. It is like watching the animals paw the air for domination.

There was a lot about ERA than helped women but there was much that changed for the negative.

I would rather a man agree that the allowance for me to be me is something he wants me to have rather than he has to deal with it surrounded by much resentment.

A friend who is dealing with the name issue said it best........"I was giving serious consideration to changing my name to his and probably would have.........but he did not allow me to come to my own conclusions about changing my name to his---he demanded it". Demands rather than requests are often very unpalletable.

I would give thought to changing my name to his but he would need to let me decide that is what I wanted. Changing it in my 20s was a no-brainer. I have been through and adoption and two marriages and changed my name to his in both and then chose to change it back to my maiden name (so I know quite well what is involved--everything changed at an adoption late in life-changed when I married-changed when I divorced-changed when I married again-changed when I divorced and then changes in records when I got a new SS number due to ID theft)--the first time there were no children involved. The second time there were children, but I wanted nothing to do with his name for a multitude of reasons. The oldest child was already out of the house and the younger still there. The younger child exprienced the same issues with his father that I did and when the divorce came about and I changed my name...he wanted to change his name to my maiden name because he wanted nothing to do with his father. His older brother talked him out of it. My point is that he did not want to be attached to a name that reminded him of heartache. He also liked my maiden name better. As I mentioned earlier, my maiden name is from an adoption late in life so it is VERY important because of what it meant to have the same name as the siblings I was raised with. People have different reasons for the choices.

The Spanish women do not change their names but keep the name of the mother. The name change came about when people began to use surnames. It showed ownership--women were not allowed to own property--if a woman became a widow and her husband left her any property--it actually went to male relative and she was allowed to use the property--that is what some women find offensive. I am sure most of us would not take to kindly to being 'owned'. Israelites were John ben George (John son of George). Surnames came about because there were so many people and just saying the son or daughter of was not enough. The surnames noted occupation--Carpenter, Cooper, etc. or location France, England, etc.

I still stand by the thought, as do others, if you can't solve this small thing--how can you solve the other issues. There are alot of traditions that I like, so that argument holds nothing here. I understand the thought that you can't selectively choose, either you are a traditionalist or you aren't.

Women staying home and caring for children is one issue, but from the looks of the posters here, the majority of women have passed wanting children and the majority of the men would have to marry women quite a few years younger than their age-that would be non-issue. If I were to marry a man who could afford for me to quit work, would at this stage of the game, probably have an ex-wife who was getting a chunk of change on a monthly basis, children who would be getting money as well as the fact that he would have legal documents in place to protect is assets for his children (as he should). I give up the job and change the name to stay home and he dies--where do I sit? My job allows me to have an assurance of income when he dies or if the marriage were to end (which I hope would not happen). I think the majority of us changed our names when we married and later had families--but as I said that is a non-issue now.

Everyone has their own reasons for wanting or not wanting the name change but I think it should be a request not a demand. If he begins to demand things--I think I would have to walk away. We should have a partnership not an ownership---Smith and Smith or Smith and Jones, not Smith and wife...............
 CheshireCatalyst
Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 377
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History
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 3:58:14 AM

Sensitive to what?


Well, for a start, any man who would cast out the children in this scenario because he could not control a woman who would not bend to his demands over a NAME CHANGE, is a walking case-study.

But I wouldn't expect some of the more vocal men in this thread to see anything wrong with punishing the children because the two adults cannot reach a harmonized agreement.

No, nuthin' wrong with that. /sarcasm

'Nuff said.......
 wild heart
Joined: 10/14/2007
Msg: 378
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 4:40:28 AM

A friend who is dealing with the name issue said it best........"I was giving serious consideration to changing my name to his and probably would have.........but he did not allow me to come to my own conclusions about changing my name to his---he demanded it". Demands rather than requests are often very unpalletable.


That's what I said ages ago. I said that if my man came to me and expressed how important it was to him that I take his last name, I probably would. I know he has weird ideas about tradition just like I do. Now if he would like me to take his name, he also has to understand that I might have traditions for our wedding that he might not understand, but he will agree to it simply because he knows it is important to me.

But again, my post still stands about men wanting women to follow their traditions, but they complain that women only want to follow the traditions that suit them. Seems like it's tit for tat now don't it on here? Go check out the marriage thread, most of the men on here wanting the woman to take their name don't want to even consider marriage, so I fail to see how their opinion really resonates.
 CheshireCatalyst
Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 379
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History
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 4:45:16 AM

most of the men on here wanting the woman to take their name don't want to even consider marriage, so I fail to see how their opinion really resonates.


That's some very interesting cross-referencing Wild Heart..........I hope men aren't going to hold a "marriage strike" against women!
 Shamefullpride
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 380
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 6:40:15 AM

Well, for a start, any man who would cast out the children in this scenario because he could not control a woman who would not bend to his demands over a NAME CHANGE, is a walking case-study.

But I wouldn't expect some of the more vocal men in this thread to see anything wrong with punishing the children because the two adults cannot reach a harmonized agreement.


Only women could turn this mans actions into control issues and punishing her children. You people need some serious counseling.

An argument over the use of the word fathering her children. Pfft. Mentoring/fathering whats the difference unless your just looking to spew your bitterness and hate towards the other gender?

What some of you man haters and professional debaters failed to read in this thread is where she suddenly decided to not take his name, and felt that keeping her ex husbands name would be just fine while at the same time letting him adopt her children and changing their names to his.

Think about how ignorant some of the past posts are based on that!

Yeah he's punishing her children alright. But only because now they have to depend on their jobless car less mother to support and take care of them. While they live with her mother.

Punishing them by putting them right back to where they started!
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 381
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 7:01:51 AM
people holding the majority of the money and power want to keep that; and since they happen to men, in general, then it's obviously men who don't want to give it up. why should they?


True but only a morally bankrupt person uses their power to exploit others vulnerabilities. You can make up your own mind how this happens but there are signs before it happens. Education and awareness help in reading them. It's prudent to find out someone's moral fibre before taking vows. That's not gender specific of course.

Claiming something is right because "I'll have what I want regardless of your discomfort" is a very clear sign.

Those who don't heed signs wind up lost in the desert, out of gas, with no food or water with a wolf circling the car. Hence all the abuse stories you can read on here.
 TheToefactor
Joined: 2/11/2009
Msg: 382
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 7:07:59 AM
What some of you man haters and professional debaters failed to read in this thread is where she suddenly decided to not take his name, and felt that keeping her ex husbands name would be just fine while at the same time letting him adopt her children and changing their names to his.


I can only imagine what it must be like to be bitter cold and lonely.

having ones guard up constantly and afraid to let anyone get close.
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 383
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 7:17:02 AM
Wow. Just... wow.


Funny. I said UNREASONABLE in the sentence that shocks you. How do you expect women to regard unreasonable and slutty men. That means men who have no self respect and a bad attitude. What do you think they are good for?????

Should I rate them higher than simply a disco stick to be ridden and discarded if they are worth anything at all? Personally I don't want to play with such a used and warped toy. Eeek. Dirty inside and out. Cheap character and over used physically. Yuck. Who wants to be close to that.

You really don't get it. Women now have the power to expect more of men than used to be acceptable.


What some of you man haters and professional debaters failed to read in this thread is where she suddenly decided to not take his name, and felt that keeping her ex husbands name would be just fine while at the same time letting him adopt her children and changing their names to his.


It's a blatantly bullshit story. Either just something you made up to make a point that women are evil withches (lol - thanks for the psychological eval but you are fired mr shrink - no I won't take your "shut up and be happy with my bullshit" pills) and even if it is true it's so outlandish as to be irrelevant to most anyone. Your opening post was good enough for debate without twisting it into a most bizarre scenario to make your point. Why pay attention to a silly story that doesn't apply to 99.999999% of us.
 CheshireCatalyst
Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 384
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History
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 7:18:00 AM

she suddenly decided to not take his name, and felt that keeping her ex husbands name would be just fine while at the same time letting him adopt her children and changing their names to his.



Yeah he's punishing her children alright. But only because now they have to depend on their jobless car less mother to support and take care of them


OP, in your first post, the only issue of contention that you pointed out was that the woman wouldn't take this man's name. Now, out of the blue, this formerly "otherwise perfect traditional relationship" presents with all these other problems. Now she has no job, no car, etc., etc.

You apparently didn't see any problem with the woman being jobless or car-less or you would have pointed it out in the OPost. I can only assume that's because it was "traditional" for a women with kids to be without a job or a car. I'm only guessing but it seems like the future husband didn't mind these things either until the name change issue reared its ugly head.

If you re-read my post, you will also see that I did not say she was blameless in the breakdown. I find fault with people who put their own selfish needs ahead of children in a relationship. Personally, I don't understand why either of the adults could be so completely inflexible.

I respect the fact that the guy in question was willing to provide for the children. But if the mother was a gold-digger looking for support, you would think that she would have caved to the pressure to change her name. Any "gold-digger" would rather cave to a little pressure to compromise rather than be kicked out in the street.

Furthermore, didn't you post earlier on how valued it would be to find a woman who was traditional enough to stay and home and prepare hot pre-school meals for her children? Your friend apparently got what he was looking for in that regard, but once she wouldn't take the guy's name, the whole scenario was turned around and these formerly "positive attributes" of the woman were deemed negative - now this "stay at home mom" is suddenly "jobless" and "car-less."

It does seem like talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time, doesn't it?

Be well......
 Shamefullpride
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 385
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 8:15:14 AM
OP, in your first post, the only issue of contention that you pointed out was that the woman wouldn't take this man's name. Now, out of the blue, this formerly "otherwise perfect traditional relationship" presents with all these other problems. Now she has no job, no car, etc., etc.


You just want to argue over stupid shet you already know to be nothing.

She no longer has a car because they broke up.. Get it? Her job untill yesterday was to take care of the children and the house. So now due to the break up she is jobless and car less. He supported the entire family.

If there is no relationship/family or house to take care of now, she is jobless to my own standards now. So save it.

And who the feck called her a gold digger? I know I didn't... I don't know what her problem is and couldn't care less.

With my posting history in this thread your entire issue and reason for debate is worthless. You went on a few posts and didn't do your research. You saw something worthy of your agenda and ran with it... To fecking funny!
 CheshireCatalyst
Joined: 9/14/2007
Msg: 386
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History
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 8:34:58 AM
Rock Man,

You and your friend are both in good company – the company of hypocrites.

You want women to stay at home and conduct themselves in a traditional manner (her job, as you frame it), until it doesn’t suit you anymore. Then, you want to criticize her for not having the car/job/prospects that she didn't have before moving in with this guy. Your postings, quite frankly, reek of someone who is promoting his own agenda. Therefore, you should not be surprised that there are other posters who will not agree with your sucky attitude. That's always going to be a risk you take when you make an OPost about controversial issues, so get over it already.

I guess the old adage applies here - "be careful what you wish for; you might just get it."
 BritPup
Joined: 1/14/2007
Msg: 387
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 8:39:43 AM

Funny. I said UNREASONABLE in the sentence that shocks you. How do you expect women to regard unreasonable and slutty men. That means men who have no self respect and a bad attitude. What do you think they are good for?????

Should I rate them higher than simply a disco stick to be ridden and discarded if they are worth anything at all? Personally I don't want to play with such a used and warped toy. Eeek. Dirty inside and out. Cheap character and over used physically. Yuck. Who wants to be close to that.

You really don't get it. Women now have the power to expect more of men than used to be acceptable.


What I don't get is so much vitriol and deep seated resentment. It's sad to see.

Equality is one thing, and laudable where appropriate. Overshooting to becoming the worst of the very thing you're complaining about in the first place is always the danger. What sign of such overshooting should we look for?
How about statements like this:


Who wants to marry you anyway lol. You're all easy to get into bed and we have our own money so....what do we need you for if you are not going to be reasonable anyway - except to irritate us for entertainment.
 StuVaBch
Joined: 11/23/2009
Msg: 388
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 8:50:07 AM
This has been a really interesting read seeing the different opinions on this. My personal opinion is that if a woman doesn't want my name then quite simply, I don't want her.

Interestingly, my ex kept my name even after the divorce.

I was on a trip with a girlfriend and everywhere we went they would call us Mr. and Mrs (enter my name). At first, she would try and correct them but eventually just gave up and when asked would just smile and say she was Mrs .......

Going through a lifetime of that scenario where we would be Mr. and Mrs. who the hell knows ...is not something I would do.
 WindRoper
Joined: 7/24/2007
Msg: 389
The op is trolling his own thread.... lmaopmpalsm!
Posted: 12/18/2009 8:51:38 AM

Yanno...I'll never get tired of just how many women seem to think their name is like a phone number... Change it and suddenly no one can find you or knows who you are. Unreal logic...too damn funny.


Yanno what logic I find unreal and too d*** funny? Persons who have never and will never be faced with such a quandry thinking they know WTF they're talkin about.

Women KNOW that persons who are aware of any name change will be able to find them, their phone number and their location. We also know that it has a serious impact on word-of-mouth business. Someone can ask a former client to refer them to a good (insert profession here). If the we haven't had contact with the client in the recent past he/she may be unaware of our name change so as a result we've lost referral business.

All this talk of women putting their careers ahead of their husbands is absolute BS. Not that it doesn't sometimes happen out of a lack of care and concern cuz it does but that is not always the case. And I'm guessing there are few men who place their wives before their careers cuz someone's gotta keep food on the table. But all someones are not male. When my then-husband was without a job and I put in overtime or brought work home he would complain about how much energy and time I put into my job. My response was "If I give the better part of myself to my job it puts food on the table and a roof over your head. If you don't like it, go live under a f***ing bridge but, personally, I'm not into starvation or losing custody of my kids cuz I can't provide for em."
 452
Joined: 11/1/2009
Msg: 390
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 9:01:18 AM
And what exactly do two men do when they get married?
 wild heart
Joined: 10/14/2007
Msg: 391
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 9:37:46 AM
What some of you man haters and professional debaters failed to read in this thread is where she suddenly decided to not take his name, and felt that keeping her ex husbands name would be just fine while at the same time letting him adopt her children and changing their names to his.


That's just stupid. I come from a family oriented family, so that doesn't make any sense to me.


Equality is one thing, and laudable where appropriate. Overshooting to becoming the worst of the very thing you're complaining about in the first place is always the danger. What sign of such overshooting should we look for?


Both men and women are guilty of this. I pointed it out in the marriage vs taking name threads. Some traditions are worth keeping, others are not. The two people involved should probably agree on which traditions to keep.

I've seen men and women contradict themselves on these forums when it comes to equality, traditions etc., in both marriage and dating. Heck, I've probably been guilty of it myself.

What really gets me is that I actually post my understanding of where a man is coming from on certain issues and I have changed some of my dating habits based on some of these threads, but I rarely see the same from men. There are a few, but some are so darn fixated on being right that it becomes tedious.


I understand the thought that you can't selectively choose, either you are a traditionalist or you aren't.


But why not? Apparently, most people on here think they can including the men who expect women to pay, not to want to get married, but if they did, the woman should take the man's name.

It's been my experience that most of us are a mix of traditional and modern and this won't die out until parents, society and the media vehicles stop teaching young people these things. We are struggling to accommodate both in changing environment.

Most people are here are teaching their sons and daughters these traditional ways. If you truly want change, don't teach them that stuff. Simple.
 forumologist
Joined: 2/23/2008
Msg: 392
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 9:56:44 AM
Unreasonable slutty men are not marriage material.

What part of that do you have trouble understanding.

Add "incapable of understanding a basic concept" and you have a real prize on your hands.

Do you wish I would be more accepting of ignorant, unreasonable slutty men?
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 393
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 10:03:49 AM
"Either you're a traditionalist or you're not"
I can't agree with that statement!
Some traditions are cool--like, in my family, we set out wooden clogs on St Nick's Day and get goodies.
But some traditions are way stupid--like, the groom carrying the bride over the threshold so she doesn't trip and piss off the household gods. [But never mind if he bangs her head on the doorjamb on the way in!]

I can say that in dating, my WISH is to be married. But I have never BEEN married, so am I considered a "traditionalist" because I want it, or a "non-traditionalist" because I haven't done so?

This is not an "all or nothing" proposition, in my head.
 WindRoper
Joined: 7/24/2007
Msg: 394
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 11:09:15 AM

What some of you man haters and professional debaters failed to read in this thread is where she suddenly decided to not take his name, and felt that keeping her ex husbands name would be just fine while at the same time letting him adopt her children and changing their names to his.

And what some of you woman haters fail to understand or just plain refuse to grasp (perhaps because it is beyond your ken) is that some of us have difficulty understanding the specific situation and woman to whom the OP referred. But the conversation has expanded beyond that. Please try to keep up.
 davidsauvignon
Joined: 2/6/2008
Msg: 395
view profile
History
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 11:44:38 AM

But never mind if he bangs her head on the doorjamb

DOH! I thought you were going to say "headboard". lmao

Hmm, seems to be quite the quandary here. I only see one one-size-fits-all solution to this argument. Only date people who have the same last name as *you*. There, all fixed. That is, if this situation would be a dealbreaker for *you* whichever side of the fence *you* sit.




~ds~
 GoodGirl100
Joined: 8/26/2009
Msg: 396
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/18/2009 4:15:07 PM

She couldn't give up a name that didn't belong to her anymore? Her ex-husband's name?


If a woman marries, and takes the husband's name, then the name DOES belong to her. She is under no obligation to stop using it should they get divorced.
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 397
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/19/2009 8:39:11 AM

(GoodGirl100) If a woman marries, and takes the husband's name, then the name DOES belong to her. She is under no obligation to stop using it should they get divorced.


*shrug* And, no man is under any obligation to marry her if she has any conditions he disagrees with.

So there...

Binroe...
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 398
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/19/2009 8:45:54 AM


I think that she is not fully commited. She hasn't given him her whole heart!


Then why isn't he showing his commitment by taking HER last name?


Because, as I have observed elsewhere, but seems to be appropriate here: SOMEONE has to go first/give ground.

Binroe...

Gawd, I can't BELIEVE the trivialities that people will dig their heels in about, and absolutely REFUSE to budge about. If something so silly becomes an insurmoutable stumbling-block so early on... that person should NOT get married! S/he isn't ready.
 annasthasia
Joined: 5/4/2005
Msg: 399
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/19/2009 9:25:18 AM
Gawd, I can't BELIEVE the trivialities that people will dig their heels in about, and absolutely REFUSE to budge about. If something so silly becomes an insurmoutable stumbling-block so early on... that person should NOT get married! S/he isn't ready.


Coming from somone who has been brainwashed by the patriarchal type of society.

---------------------------
Rock man, you have yet to answer this question that has been asked by myself and by others and no REAL answer has been given...

1- This woman you speak of is WILLING to have her future husband adopt her children and change their names.

2-Those children MUST have a father SOMEWHERE on the planet and I am sure that there are some level of communication with him. Sooooo, why on earth does this woman have no issues in changing her children's last name? Doesn't the biological father have any say in this... I mean, he did sire them, and according to many of you males out there. It seems imperative that the children take the father's name....
I do not understand that...

3- This woman you speak of, then refuses to change her name, which is her married name to this former husband of hers. So, she is the only one who will have her ex-husband's name.

Did I miss something....?...

If that is so, in this context, I can see that the future groom would have an issue with this. From his point of view, changing the children's name to his and she not wanting to change hers is a huge point to be considered. It would just seem odd in the patriarchal family's context. That situation would indeed break the cycle of unsion that the men in the patriarchal society seem to associate with their last name.

By the by, I still find it odd. Where I come from, women HAVE to keep their maiden name. It is the law. No ifs ands or but... That is why, I find this whole idea of men going ballistic over a name is just weird for me. Anyway...

I hope you can answer those questions. So far you have eluded them completely.

In retrospect, if I were that said man, I too would have an issue. That woman does not seem to have common sense about the situation. Again, not sure I truly understand.

If you care to educate yourself about the customs in my neck of the woods, have a read.


As they naturally fell under the laws and customs of France of the Ancien Régime, inhabitants of the St. Lawrence Valley in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries all had a family name and a first name. Children inherited their father’s family name, and men transmitted this name to their children. Married women kept their family name at birth, at least in religious, administrative and legal documents.


Source: http://www.genealogie.umontreal.ca/en/nomsPrenoms.htm
 annasthasia
Joined: 5/4/2005
Msg: 400
Taking his name....?
Posted: 12/19/2009 9:35:13 AM
Here is all the how to about getting married in the province of Québec.

This particular paragraph may be of interest to some of you.


Bride's Name:
"Women keep their birth name after marriage and continue to exercise their civil rights under that name, i.e. they must use their birth name in contracts, on credit cards, on their driver's licence, etc. They are free however to assume their husband's name socially."

This rule applies to all women domiciled in Québec, even if they married outside Québec or outside Canada, except women married before April 2, 1981 already using their husband's last name to exercise their civil rights."
Source: Justice.gouv.qc.ca


Source: http://marriage.about.com/od/canada/p/quebec.htm

This way of doing things, takes nothing from the man's maleness. I again, do not get that from men on here...

Anyway...
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