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Show ALL Forums  > California  > What has gotten you concerned with Politics?      Home login  
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 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 976
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What has gotten you concerned with Politics? Page 40 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)
^^I won't disagree with you completely. There's lots about American education system that I don't like. But it's rarely the teachers that are at fault. And I can't think of any other area of importance than education that deserves cabinet level status.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 977
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/22/2011 3:32:58 PM
The breaking news out of Wisconsin should present a cautionary tale to all. When I was growing up in that state, in humble circumstances, 2-room schoolhouse stuff with teachers who probably had 2 year associates degrees from humble teachers colleges... we could all read, far above grade level. We all were capable of military service (unlike the 25% capable of service today), we all could easily succeed at higher education pursuits.

This is a disgrace. An absolute slap in theface of the "money is the problem" crowd. I would also invite the skeptic to view the documentary "Waiting For Superman". These Union loving leftists would be ashamed if they were capable of authentic responses when they defend this rotten educational system they have delivered to our country.

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest
Tuesday, February 22, 2011
By Terence P. Jeffrey

(CNSNews.com) - Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest.

In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 978
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History
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/22/2011 4:26:02 PM
^^Hate to burst your bubble, but Wisconsin is not even in the worst shape. In fact, states without collective bargaining performs much worse. Other states in comparison:

Wisconsin - 34% - $ Spent per student $10,791
Louisiana - 20% - 10,006
Mississippi - 19% - 7,890
Alaska - 27% - $14,641
Oklahoma - 26% - $7,683
Kentucky - 34% - $8,740
Arkansas - 27% - $8,677
Tennessee - 28% - $7,820
North Carolina - 29% - $7,798
Texas - 27% - $8,350
Alabama - 23% - $9,197
South Carolina - 25% - $9,060
Florida - 31% - $9,084
Georgia - 27% - $9,718
Virginia - 32% - $10,664

No doubt, we have problems with kids in schools, and I suspect much of those problems are lack of parental influences. Those teachers deserve every penny for having to be the babysitters to pretty ungrateful bunch of whiners.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 979
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Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/22/2011 4:34:52 PM
Oh, and the kicker, Wisconsin did better than the national average in 8th grade reading proficiency....California did not. This is what you call selective facts to fit your view.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 980
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/22/2011 5:22:54 PM
Wisconsin should be compared against itself. Of course people from Wisconsin score better than most, it's the dismal past-present that is useful. You clearly do not understand scientific method. Did you go to school in Hawaii, or California, or Louisiana?
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 981
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History
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/22/2011 6:09:07 PM
^^^I did indeed check other state facts. California spends considerably less money per child than Wisconsin.

Why should Wisconsin be the only state to be compared to its past? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I thought you were trying to make a point that somehow the teachers of Wisconsin were less deserving than other humans...or something.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 982
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/22/2011 8:18:04 PM
In all seriousness the entire education system has collapsed and it is due primarily to the monopoly power of the education-industrial complex. The Unions of course are the instrument and beneficiary of this disaster.

I know many of the teachers in the system, childhood friends and college fellows and they are mostly fine people, kinda bumpkins, primitives, simpletons even, but I digress. They have a sweet deal and they are unwilling to see themselves or the role they play in the downward path of our students in learning the skills we need. How in their right mind would imagine union members who work for the government would have minds nimble enough to teach about the future?
 JackDiamond312
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 983
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History
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/23/2011 8:44:18 AM
Education is just part of the problem, It can improve or get worse without the unions, Collective bargaining cuts out competition, and protects everyone, not the rights of everyone, but the habits of everyone, collective bargaining isn't going to improve the quality of teachers, those teachers who have either lost their gift to teach, or didn't really have it are being protected and hidden in this system. I don't believe anyone is against Teachers, Fire Fighters or Police or any other worker who finds themselves involved in having to have to join a union.

Teachers are a very important occupation, Our kids educations depends on them, the future of America is in their hands, so does it not make sense that if a Teacher is not doing a good job, they should get the boot, and if one is extremely good, they should be rewarded for their effort, rather than by their tenure. The union concept is not to benefit the student and education, only to benefit those union members. And denying non-union workers any rights.

But this is the problem, Right to Work States are protecting the rights of everyone to work, trying to keep unions from having a monopoly. If unions were all about helping people and giving them choice and protection, they shouldn't be forcing their unions onto every industries, and worse than that forcing it on the tax payer who pays the wages and benefits of those public employees.

America is bleeding to death, States are bleeding to death, and it is because we have allowed this government/public growth happen. The Progressives are pushing for public works growth, and for taxing the so called rich to pay for it. How about letting the private sector grow, so that tax payers are not responsible for keeping someone in a job.

They say that they have given the worker a 40 day work week and weekends and so on.... What Unions and this growing Progressive Government has done, is made it harder to do work in most states, and even in America. Why do you think jobs have gone over-seas, why do you think manufacturing has gone out of this Country, Unions have gone from protecting the worker to killing Corporations, the progressive speech on all of the Progressive news, like MSNBC and so on has become an attack on Corporations and the so called rich.

America is the land of Opportunity, where we have the freedom and a pursuit of happiness to make our own life in a world that is otherwise socialistic. Becoming Rich, doing good, being successful, use to be a good thing, a goal, something to look forward to, but collective bargaining, collective salvation, collective living is not individuals competing and pursuing greatness, it is a disease of complacency, and this political correctness of thinking everyone is the same, that everyone is equal, we are not the same, things are not equal, people are different, some will never succeed, this is not the fault of anyone else, I wish we had this Utopia of everyone getting what they want, but it's not real.

You can not have a winner of the Super Bowl if there is no losers. Yes, losing sucks, but losing, going without, struggle... is what makes success great, you would not know what dark is without light, or hot without cold.

The problem we have in America is that we have forgotten what a great experiment our Founders created. Pursuit of Happiness, and the freedom to pursue it. We have been spending so much time, taking this freedom out of the hands of the individual and putting it into someone else's hands, Enslaving ourselves. This progressive movement, this Change of Obama, (And he didn't start this) is a cancer that is killing America as we know it, and as much as the Progressives wish to attempt to rewrite history, they are not on the side of our Constitution, or our Founders, they are wanting to progress this experience toward a socialistic Democratic State, away from a Republic of the People, for the People.

Ronald Reagan was the last President, that truly honored what our Founders created.


One more thing, These progressives, who forced so much on this country when they were the heavy majority for the past two years, 4 years in both houses with a Lame Duck Bush's last two years. They crammed so much, and Democrats across the country are being cowards and leaving their states, so they cannot vote on bills is typical of these people. The Unions are doing illegal tactics to make a point and bully their views to others, Yes the Tea Party spoke up against those bills being shoved through, but you didn't see Republicans run and hide, and not do their jobs.

The Unions are not the peoples business, People would also like to have the individual right to work without Union protection, why force it on everyone? Can you say monopoly.... and to stomp out competition. which gives you higher costs, and bad workers who don't care, because they know they are being protected, no matter what.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 984
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:00:01 PM
Inspired stuff Jack and welcome back. Those midwestern winters with the limitless horizons and ironing board grey skies have elevated your thinking while some of thinking in the warm California sun makes us think think electricity comes from holes in the wall:)
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 985
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Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/23/2011 7:34:02 PM

I know many of the teachers in the system, childhood friends and college fellows and they are mostly fine people, kinda bumpkins, primitives, simpletons even, but I digress. They have a sweet deal and they are unwilling to see themselves or the role they play in the downward path of our students in learning the skills we need. How in their right mind would imagine union members who work for the government would have minds nimble enough to teach about the future?


Really, I'm not going to insult anyone though I will say I don't disagree completely, but I don't know what you're expecting. The kids are only going to be as good as the teachers who teach them, and seems to me that if this was such a sweat gig, you'd have more ambitious types entering the field. They won't...because the job just doesn't pay enough.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 986
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/23/2011 7:57:02 PM
Thinking, please. Please think before you speak. What in the world are you talking about? Public school teachers are vastly overpaid given their entire package of benefits. Given their likely SAT test scores, and the truly mind-numbing, low-level educational attainment in the school of education (oopps I had something repeat on me I had for lunch), the number of days and hours per year.... dreadfully hugely overpaid.

I am nowere near my peak earnings these days but I would love to see one of these whiney mediocrities do what the people in my field do. Imagine getting a call at noon to be in Tokyo tomorrow to give a presentation to a group of unknown executives on a topic you have no material, research, or clue as to the audiences true reason interests. Imagine then making a quick call to book a 14 hour flight that leaves in 2 hours, break a few lunch dates, a golf date, break the news to your wife you'll miss her birthday, or your daughters ball game, and hope this bug that itching in the back of your throat is going not coming.

People far more educated do this everyday for less money, less security, greater risk (miss the deal twice you're fired, have the client speak ill of you once you're fired). it is truly insulting to people in the private sector to hear this mantra about underpaid. Compared to a computer programmer, accountant, internal sales person, HR executive...the pay versus skills required is a deep chasm. These teachers won't even allow testing in the subjects they teach. They get tenure for nothing more than time in the chair.

You magine drones like this can prepare the workforce of tomorrow? Unionized, government employed, moron sign wielding, Bush lied, Walker is like Hitler fruitcakes. Letting one's child around people like this would be child abuse in a sane world.

I have posted elsewhere the requirements for the workforce of the future. You could not hire people less tempermentally and values holding from what we will need to avoid drifting into the Soviet style, apparatchik governed country it now appears likely, less a Reagan part deux, we are to become.
 pirateheaven
Joined: 5/11/2008
Msg: 987
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Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/24/2011 7:38:04 PM
Teachers salaries are subject to supply and demand like everything else. If they are paid too little, then there are too many of them to begin with.

In a performance based world, CA teachers would be paid near the bottom of all the states because of their perpetually poor results.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 988
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Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/24/2011 10:05:21 PM

Public school teachers are vastly overpaid given their entire package of benefits


Well, I have put a lot of thought into it, and personally, you couldn't pay me enough to put up with 30 kids all who believe they are entitled with parents who believe about the same.


I am nowere near my peak earnings these days but I would love to see one of these whiney mediocrities do what the people in my field do.


Oh right, and they all have a tendancy to think they are much smarter than they really are. And I know pretty much all teachers know what I mean.


Imagine getting a call at noon to be in Tokyo tomorrow to give a presentation to a group of unknown executives on a topic you have no material, research, or clue as to the audiences true reason interests. Imagine then making a quick call to book a 14 hour flight that leaves in 2 hours, break a few lunch dates, a golf date, break the news to your wife you'll miss her birthday, or your daughters ball game, and hope this bug that itching in the back of your throat is going not coming.



That really isn't all that special. Not everyone does it, but lots do, and it's just a learned behaviour, nothing anyone else with the necessity to do so couldn't. Most of my associates do that on daily basis, and then some.


People far more educated do this everyday for less money, less security, greater risk (


You have too high a perception of the importance of the private sector. I barely know hardly any professional in the private sector that doesn't make more than a teacher. They also tend to spend more, live in bigger houses, and when they go broke, they do so with much more stress. None of the executives in large corporations I had to deal with are necessarily much smarter, just more trained in a specific skill set. They would not be able to deal with the pressure of a teaching environment with a bunch of kids any more than a teacher could deal in a corporate or manufacturing environment. Doesn't mean a damn thing.


You magine drones like this can prepare the workforce of tomorrow?


Believe me, you're just as much a drone to the guy above you, regardless of how much you elevate your position in life. And I would bet more people think of your profession as "drone like" than not in this world.


I have posted elsewhere the requirements for the workforce of the future.


There are gazillion different vocations and necessarily tasks to be done in this world...even picking vegetables are important if there is no one to do it. No doubt, we don't train enough people in the techical arena because some groups of people have a problem with math and sciences (especially the ones that think the world is only a few thousand years old), and too damn many needless lawyers in my opinion, but that doesn't mean anything other than our economic needs change faster than we can train certain type of workers.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 989
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History
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/24/2011 10:09:39 PM

In a performance based world, CA teachers would be paid near the bottom of all the states because of their perpetually poor results.


And how did you come to this conclusion? According to the same source that Golf used to get info on the Wisconsin aptitude test, California is not the bottom (those were provided above) an we spend a lot less per kid than states like say Alaska who are sub-par...much like their quitter ex-Governor.
 pirateheaven
Joined: 5/11/2008
Msg: 990
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History
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/25/2011 11:58:20 AM

In a performance based world, CA teachers would be paid near the bottom of all the states because of their perpetually poor results.


And how did you come to this conclusion?


Check the US Govt statistics. CA has been in the bottom 5 states or lower for several years now. The last time I checked, it ranked 47th out of 50 states. Do your own homework and let us know what you find out.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 991
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Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/25/2011 12:45:52 PM
^^Please, kindly point me to a link for this claim you're making. Not saying you're wrong, just that you aren't backing the point you're making.
 pirateheaven
Joined: 5/11/2008
Msg: 992
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Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/25/2011 3:10:32 PM
^^^^^^^^^^
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/naepdata/

US department of education, national center for education statistics. ^^^^^^^

Have at it. You can create all kinds of tables.

CA 8th graders

Math ranks 47th, (West Virginia 48th)

Reading ranks 50th (West Viriginia 45th)

Science 46th (West Viriginia ranks 36th)

A CA public school education is one of the very worst in the USA.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 993
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History
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/26/2011 12:37:53 AM
^^Thanks Pirate., I'll check it out.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 994
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/26/2011 6:54:41 AM
Thinking how can you be so confident consistently in the absence of facts? None of the guys say anything not easily provable yet somehow you seem to soldier on in the warm glow of Dem talking points.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 995
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History
Look for the Union label
Posted: 2/26/2011 10:18:30 AM
^^I've been thinking the same thing about you guys since I've started posting here. But it's not even that your points are half true and often highly exaggerated, but it's often so mean-spirited that requires someone to call BS. I'm sure you don't like my soldiering on, but I would have the warm glow than the cold knife in the back that is the Republican vision of America.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 996
The real cost of education
Posted: 2/26/2011 12:43:13 PM
In the continuing interests of "Educating Rita" I've linked an interesting article on the true cost of education.... 150% understated in LA County (see page 6 and 7). The fact is the left lies, and they are comfortable lies so the miseducated seldom delve deep enough, or have the intellectual integrity, to finally grow up. But it the responsibility of the Promethean sides of our natures to brink light where darkness lives.


http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11432
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 997
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History
The real cost of education
Posted: 2/26/2011 12:55:02 PM
^^Ah, the CATO institute. I love the new push coming from the investors to turn public schools into private organizations...they look at the spending and get all hard. I don't doubt that we have problems, just like we have problems in everything from defense spending to prison systems, to Homeland Security, you name it, there's guaranteed to be graft because there is so much money. But I would rather cut off the welfare we give to oil companies or making more weapons and over-paying private army contractors than to go after school teachers any day. If that's leftist, I wear that lable with pride.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 998
view profile
History
The real cost of education
Posted: 2/26/2011 1:07:22 PM
Another great GOP plan to cut services to women and children. Gee, who could have predicted.....

The G.O.P.'s Abandoned Babies
Charles Blow
New York Times
February 26th, 2011
Republicans need to figure out where they stand on children’s welfare. They can’t be “pro-life” when the “child” is in the womb but indifferent when it’s in the world. Allow me to illustrate just how schizophrenic their position has become through the prism of premature babies...

...The budget proposes:
• $50 million in cuts to the Maternal and Child Health Block Grant that “supports state-based prenatal care programs and services for children with special needs.”

• $1 billion in cuts to programs at the National Institutes of Health that support “lifesaving biomedical research aimed at finding the causes and developing strategies for preventing preterm birth.”

• Nearly $1 billion in cuts to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for its preventive health programs, including to its preterm birth studies.

This is the same budget in which House Republicans voted to strip all federal financing for Planned Parenthood.
It is savagely immoral and profoundly inconsistent...

...How is this humane?

...Think about that the next time you hear Republican representatives tout their “pro-life” bona fides. Think about that the next time someone uses the heinous term “baby killer.”.

Just can't keep their hands off spending that helps kids and women because, well, they either don't or can't fight back.




.
 robin-hood
Joined: 12/2/2008
Msg: 999
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History
The real cost of education
Posted: 2/26/2011 1:15:58 PM
If teachers are so valuable then why do college graduates need a union, or would even want a union to represent them. Aren't unions for blue collar workers.

In Calif they have unions throughout the state workers including engineers, nurses, and many others with 4 year degrees, yet the private industry does not. I remember working at USS when the union got raises they had to give the same raises and benefits to the non-union management in order to keep pay scales relative.

Not to be in disagreement but public unions will be the ruin of USA as we see it today. They negotate these contracts with elected officials in private sessions and usually only the fact that a new contract or strike settled is disclosed to the public. None or very little of the settled contract aggrements are disclosed. This tie is so strong that I bet you couldn't find one elected democrat to speak out against the union for even minor concessions.

If you want to see whats coming take a look at Greece or any other nation that can't pay the benefits that were promised. It took a bailout loan for Greece and when thats gone what happens then.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 1000
The real cost of education
Posted: 2/26/2011 2:38:17 PM

...The budget proposes:
• $50 million in cuts to the Maternal and Child Health Block Grant that “supports state-based prenatal care programs and services for children with special needs.”

• $1 billion in cuts to programs at the National Institutes of Health that support “lifesaving biomedical research aimed at finding the causes and developing strategies for preventing preterm birth.”

• Nearly $1 billion in cuts to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for its preventive health programs, including to its preterm birth studies.


Why is any of this the responsibility of the taxpayer?

planned parenthood was and still is a eugenics program


http://www.blackgenocide.org/sanger.html


Eugenics and euthanasia

Sanger was a proponent of negative eugenics, a social philosophy which claims that human hereditary traits can be improved through social intervention. Sanger's eugenic policies ran to an exclusionary immigration policy, free access to birth control methods and full family-planning autonomy for the able-minded, and compulsory segregation or sterilization for the profoundly retarded. She expressly denounced euthanasia as a eugenics tool.

In A Plan for Peace (1932), for example, Sanger proposed a congressional department to:

Keep the doors of immigration closed to the entrance of certain aliens whose condition is known to be detrimental to the stamina of the race, such as feebleminded, idiots, morons, insane, syphilitic, epileptic, criminal, professional prostitutes, and others in this class barred by the immigration laws of 1924.[22]

And, following:

Apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring.[22]

Sanger saw birth control as a means to prevent "dysgenic" children from being born into a disadvantaged life, and dismissed "positive eugenics" (which promoted greater fertility for the "fitter" upper classes) as impractical. Though many leaders in the negative eugenics movement were calling for active euthanasia of the "unfit," Sanger spoke out against such methods. She believed that women with the power and knowledge of birth control were in the best position to produce "fit" children. She rejected any type of eugenics that would take control out of the hands of those actually giving birth.
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