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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?      Home login  
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 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 26
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?Page 2 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

Phillips defended his methods with a curious argument. He disregarded the morals of his tactics, then explained that no matter what his organization says, who funds them, and how they operate, he and his corporate backers have every right to be “involved in the process.”

What a 'stand-up' kind of guy...!

And obviously a 'good' Christian conservative... The Faith and Family Alliance... After all, we all know that God wants energy deregulation... it's right there in the "Gospels of Exxon"...

And the attacks on Cantor and McCain's adopted child... I'm sure I heard somewhere that God hates Jews and brown-skinned babies... Would that be the "Gospels of Adolph"... ?

And the fake polling firm idea... What could be more Christian conservative... Unfortunately, I forget which of the commandments exhort people to "Maketh shit up, lieth if necessary, and ye shall inherit a Christian America"... but I'm sure it's there somewhere...

Second of all - I know Tim Phillips of Americans for Prosperity. I've known him over 10 years now...

Once again... no big surprises there...
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 27
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 5:30:41 PM
It kind of reminds me of Pickett's Charge, right into the guns aimed at their best self-interests. If you look at the Red States, the percentage of people living in poverty is rather high, as are the number of uninsured.

Look at these figures from that well known socialist Godless Commie group that proudly call themselves the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.


State, % People Below Poverty Level
1. Mississippi 21%
2. District of Columbia 17%
3. Louisiana 17%
4. New Mexico 17%
5. Arkansas 17%
5. West Virginia 17%
7. Kentucky 17%
7. Oklahoma 15%
9. Texas 15%
10. Alabama 15%
U.S. Census Bureau, Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2008

Top Ten States with Highest Percentage of Children under 18 Living in Poverty
Mississippi 29.4 %
Louisiana 26.9 %
District of Columbia 25.7 %
Arkansas 25.3 %
New Mexico 25.2 %
Alabama 23.6 %
Kentucky 23.6 %
West Virginia 23.4 %
Texas 23.1 %
Tennessee 22.5 %
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2008 American Community Survey, August 2009

Top Ten States with the Highest Percentage of Adults 65 or Older Living in Poverty
District of Columbia 15.6 %
Mississippi 15.6 %
Louisiana 14 %
Kentucky 13.4 %
New Mexico 13.2 %
Tennessee 12.9 %
Georgia 12.7 %
Arkansas 12.6 %
Alabama 12.6 %
Texas 12.3 %
U.S. Census Bureau, 2006 American Community Survey 2008

http://www.usccb.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact4.shtml



The Census Bureau sought to find that out, for the first time, in a survey taken last year and released in September. Over all, it found that 9.9 percent of children lack any health insurance, half the rate for adults under 65.

But there was widespread variation in coverage. Children in Texas, the state with the least health insurance, are more than eight times as likely not to have it than children in Massachusetts, the state with the broadest coverage.

Those who lack health insurance now are far more likely to live in states that usually vote Republican — the states whose senators and representatives are least likely to support a law to extend coverage.

There are a number of reasons for a greater amount of health insurance in blue states. Some of those states have relatively generous child insurance programs, most notably Massachusetts, which has nine of the 10 Congressional districts with the most health insurance. (The 10th is in Hawaii, another blue state.) Some Democratic states have also been more generous in setting Medicaid coverage standards, thus providing more coverage for people with low-paying jobs that do not provide insurance.

Of the 10 Congressional districts with the least health insurance, seven are in Texas, two in California and one in Florida. Nine of those districts are largely black or Hispanic, and are represented by Democrats who faced little if any Republican opposition in the last election.

While heavily Democratic districts often have less insurance, the red states tend to have less insurance than other states even without including those districts. Of the 150 Congressional districts with the most health insurance, only three are in red states — one each in Alabama, Tennessee and Kansas. Another 25 are in purple states, with the rest in states that consistently vote Democratic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/business/economy/10charts.html


Why is it that those seeking to bring much needed relief to people that need it the most are the one's vilified by those very same people - under the hidden umbrella that is sponsored by those with the most resources and wealth ?

Why is it that your "liberal media" seems to sit by and let it occur, without kicking over the rock and letting the bright light of day expose the billionaires and corporations that organize and pay the bills ?

Why is it that someone like Nixon could propose a health plan far more "socialist" than Obama's , without complaint from the right ?

Why is it that even Bush and the Republican party could enact a socialist Medicare overhaul, or even bail out corporations without protest from these same groups ?

Some rather interesting questions, that all serve to highlight the current game of three card monte being played on those that think the winning card is still on the table - and not in the dealer's pocket.....
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 28
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 6:14:14 PM
Here's a few questions in return---

Why is it that someone who isn't even a citizen of our country cares so much about American politics? Are Canada's politics really that boring? How would you like it if American conservatives starting sticking their noses in your political system (not that it would ever happen, we have lives to live) and trying to influence it?

I am sincere in asking, I have asked before and all I ever get in response is something such as "this is a Canadian website and if you don't like it blah blah blah......"
I understand it is a Candian website, but the majority on here are not Canadian and most threads on Canadian politics get one, maybe two responses and die quickly. Is that the reason?
I am truly interested in why some Canadians are so hell bent on the US becoming more like them. The majority of Americans truly don't want it.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 29
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 6:36:50 PM

Why is it that someone who isn't even a citizen of our country cares so much about American politics?


I've been following it since 1968, and the RFK campaign. It's interesting, and it does (indirectly) affect my country and the rest of the world.



Are Canada's politics really that boring?


Compared to yours ? Kind of...

At least in the last couple of decades. You have someone going rogue, we have someone going prorogue. (Canadians will get that one.)



How would you like it if American conservatives starting sticking their noses in your political system (not that it would ever happen, we have lives to live) and trying to influence it?


It certainly has happened.

http://dawn.thot.net/harperstiestousa/

Our current Prime Minister , a Conservative, was a member of just such a "grassroots" movement, the NCC. In fact, he actually went before the Supreme Court here to argue that such groups be allowed to remain secret.


The National Citizens Coalition (NCC) was founded in 1967 by Colin M. Brown (1914-1987), initially to oppose public health care.
Harper's speech as NCC President to the Council for National Policy, a right-wing American political organization, in Montreal in June 1997 — is often cited as a testament of his true political colours.

http://www.harperindex.ca/ViewArticle.cfm?Ref=0010





The National Citizens Coalition is a Canadian conservative lobby group, founded by Colin M. Brown in 1967, originally founded in opposition to the concept of a national healthcare system. It supports privatization, tax cuts, and government spending cuts and opposes laws that limit spending by non-party organizations during election campaigns. It has been heavily involved in advertising, political campaigns and legal challenges in support of its goals of "more freedom with less government."

The organization has fought to keep information about itself confidential, and opposed amendments to the Canada Elections Act that would have required third-party organizations like the NCC to publish the names of all contributors donating more than $250.

During its almost four decades of existence, the NCC has campaigned against:

* the Canada Health Act,
* the Canadian Wheat Board,
* the general strike organized by the Canadian Labour Congress against wage and price controls imposed the Liberal government of Pierre Trudeau in 1975
* the admittance of Vietnamese refugees ("boat people") to Canada in 1979-1980
* closed-shop unions
* the so-called "gold-plated" pension plan for Members of Parliament
* real or perceived government waste in general

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Citizens_Coalition



The Liberal Party of Canada's government introduced Bill C-2 which became the new Canada Elections Act in 2002. Bill C-2 limited third party election advertising maximum spending to $150,000 nationwide, of which a maximum of $3,000 can be spent on a given electoral district.

Stephen Harper, then president of the National Citizens Coalition (he became Prime Minister in 2006), launched a constitutional challenge in June 2000 to Court of Queen's Bench of Alberta in Edmonton. The court held that section 350 and section 351 of the Canada Elections Act is unconstitutional. The Alberta Court of Appeal, in a 2-1 decision, ruled on December 16, 2002 that all provisions on third party activities, except for section 358, violates the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
[edit] Ruling

The majority was written by Justice Bastarache with Justice Iacobucci, Arbour, LeBel, Deschamps and Fish concurring.

The court found that, though the spending limits infringe upon section 2b of the Charter, the law is reasonable and is justified in light of section 1. The majority concluded that the objective of the spending limits is electoral fairness. The law has an effect in creating "a level playing field for those who wish to engage in the electoral discourse, enabling voters to be better informed". In addition, section 3 of the Charter is not infringed because the right of meaningful participation in electoral process includes the right to participate in an informed manner. Without spending limits, individuals or groups can dominate the discussion and prevent opposing views from being heard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper_v._Canada_%28Attorney_General%29


"$150,000 nationwide, of which a maximum of $3,000 can be spent on a given electoral district."

Thank God for that....

Does this sound familiar ?

American right wing religious groups have tried to intervene in our domestic policies fighting same sex marriage and abortion, and American conservatives have certainly tried to paint Canada's medicare system as being seriously flawed - even when the majority of Canadians agree with the system and are happy with it.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 30
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 6:57:20 PM
I really do appreciate the non-condesecending answer. That's really all I've ever asked for.

I personally think Americans should keep their noses out of your domestic policies and vise versa, unless it has a direct influence on either one's security.

I don't really think painting your healthcare system as being flawed is intervening in any way (anymore than your painting of the "teabag" movement is going to change the minds of those that approve of what they stand for and do), because I've heard enough backlash against it from your own citizens (there have been several threads in the off topic forums here where many Canadian citizens have voiced their discontent).

I honestly don't think your healthcare system would work here, and the risks to test that theory are too great for many ( a majority even) of the people living here. I think the difference in population is one problem, and the fact that even those who would benefit from it would never give up the money from their paychecks needed to support it. Many Americans are all for more socialism until they learn there is a ever increasing price-tag that comes with it.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 31
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 7:10:47 PM
I also agree that Americans will probably never want or support a "Canadian style" healthcare program, and that has far more to do with the American cultural and historical paradigm, and those cultural filters I keep referring to. I've said the same in many posts here, and maintained the same position when arguing in the "gun control" threads.

If you've noticed, I've always carefully maintained an ability to speak as a "virtual American" when posting in those type of threads. I don't reference our political system, or our history, in support of anything there. That's the only way to debate such topics, exactly because those cultural filters over our eyes give us a totally different perspective over how we see things.

On the other hand, I do think the spirit of America, and democracy itself, is to question those that seek to control us. Being a billionaire doesn't mean you can't look out for the average man, but one has to look at which type of billionaire is involved.

If such groups, in your country or mine, are being promoted and supported by corporations and billionaires, then it's certainly a good thing to look into. Who are these people, and what are their agendas, and why are they interested in forming such groups ?

Cui bono - who gains ?

Not looking into such things is neglecting the very basic need of free men and women in democratic societies to be informed of what's going on - and that's a universal problem that threatens democracy anywhere it is to be found.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 32
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 9:12:32 PM

Some folks apparently just don't get that they diss THEMSELEVES when they use that term!

You see, when a "Tea Bagging" happens, there is a Tea BaggER and a Tea BaggEE...
Ya ... we get that.

So let's review - if Scott Ford and the Republicans were the Tea BaggERs, then the Democrats and Martha Coakley would be... what? LOL!
The Democrats?

Let me understand this ... you're saying that the Republicans are dissing themselves by using that term to describe themselves? Um DUH!!!

But hey ... if they're proud of what is going on ... then why would we deprive them of being so proud? If they're proud of the people who are organizing the "Tea Bag Party" putting the screws to them ... who's to stop them?

If I understand the connotation appropriately, the Republicans seem to feel they are "teabagging" the Democrats (the Republican Tea BaggERs are lowering themselves over the Democrat Tea BaggEEs ... and having them suck their nads). That's what the inference there is ... right?

But what they (the republicans) don't get is that the folks organizing all the actual "teabagging" parties are the ones actually "teabagging" the Republicans ... ie putting the screws to the Republicans.

If you look at the Red States, the percentage of people living in poverty is rather high, as are the number of uninsured.
Do ya think too that perhaps they are so very naïve ...
"Lacking worldly experience and understanding, especially: 1) simple and guileless; artless; 2) Unsuspecting or credulous; howing or characterized by a lack of sophistication and critical judgment."
... that they really don't get it that those people are actually putting the screws to them?

Ya ... that's what it looks like, that's what it walks like ... that's what it is!!!

Why is it that someone who isn't even a citizen of our country cares so much about American politics?
How would you like it if American conservatives starting sticking their noses in your political system (not that it would ever happen, we have lives to live) and trying to influence it?

I am sincere in asking, I have asked before and all I ever get in response is something such as "this is a Canadian website and if you don't like it blah blah blah......"
Keep in mind that we have numerous American Citizens working and living in Canada. They are "American" voters and have every right to be interested in "American politics".

EDIT to the post below:
I didn't see it that way at all. Personally I thought it just had to do with the Boston Tea Party, and not anything to do with any sort of sexual denigration or.... sexual power play or anything like that.
Um no.

He was referring to the previously posted definition of what "teabagging" is. From Message 6 ...
Teabagger-2) a man that squats on top of a womens face and lowers his genitals into her mouth during sex, known as "teabagging"
That was the inference in the post that I quoted (Message 18) ... that the Republicans did that to the Democrats.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 33
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 9:15:26 PM

If I understand the connotation appropriately, the Republicans seem to feel they are "teabagging" the Democrats (the Republican Tea BaggERs are lowering themselves over the Democrat Tea BaggEEsand having them suck their nads. That's what the inference there is ... right?


I didn't see it that way at all. Personally I thought it just had to do with the Boston Tea Party, and not anything to do with any sort of sexual denigration or.... sexual power play or anything like that.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 34
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 9:31:55 PM
MG--

Yes, I have noticed your ability to speak as a virtual American, and quite possibly the reason I questioned you in the first place. It isn't often that one from another country knows more about our politics than the majority of our citizens, and that could possibly be the blame of our rather lackluster education system (yet another prime example of why many view what the government here touches rather suspiciously) , or your acknowledged interest in the subject.

I think possibly the same cultural filters you speak of cause some of us to view the questions you raise as a condemnation of our way of life. There is a distinct possibility we as a nation don't question what happens around us nearly enough, but it raises suspicions when someone from elsewhere does so (that questioning of those who seek to control us you mentioned). Why that is, I cannot answer, and I apologise for my quickness in jumping down your throat because it truly does seem you are only trying to open eyes that often may seem blind to someone outside looking in, and many times are. I think part of the problem with our politics in general is there is way too much of that and neither side is willing to give in. At least we try to give in as little as possible.

Politics in America is kind of like football, we usually only gain a few yards at time, and it takes many plays to get a touchdown. My "team" is playing defense right now and looking for every yard we can get, and I suppose I am willing to overlook a few shady creatures lurking in the background, just as I feel many were doing so when they elected Obama. And Obama voters felt the same about those voting for Bush before that. It is a vicious circle. Weather it is right or wrong, I don't know. I only know it seems to be a vote for what each of us perceives as the lesser of two evils, never what is best.

As I said, I do appreciate your honest response to my rather barbed questions in that previous post. And I apologise if I came off rudely but I got put off by the title of the thread. I have always respected your engaging and insightful way of looking at things. Even when our opinions are on opposite spectrums.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 35
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/25/2010 11:51:36 PM
Well, I appreciate your honesty as well. I think that you can learn far more from those you disagree with than you ever will from those that agree with you - if you take the time to listen.

I think one of the reasons that many Americans get turned off of politics is probably due to the nature of the beast in the last two decades. If you go back to your early history, anyone that looks at your early presidential campaigns will certainly realize that some of those were mind blowing in their dirt, and politics is what it is.


Things got ugly fast. Jefferson's camp accused President Adams of having a "hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman."

In return, Adams' men called Vice President Jefferson "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/08/22/mf.campaign.slurs.slogans/index.html


Rush Limbaugh with a musket, anyone ?

That said, this latest period in American history has been magnified and amplified to a point where all you here is the screaming. Clinton was a lightening rod for it, and Bush and Obama were/are as well.

Now, politics here is quite a different matter. Many of you Americans worry about your country, and your future, and that's normal. I come from a country where it was very nearly split up, democratically, twice in my lifetime. The province I live in (Quebec) was quite close to separating into being it's own new country. My ex-wife was a separatist, and I was a devout federalist.

The funny thing ?

That caused us zero problems as a couple. We respected each others rights to different opinions, and our freedom to democratically differ as equals. We, above all, agreed that this should be done in a non-violent and democratic way no matter which way it went.

That caused us zero problems as a people, as well. We accepted that democracy would decide the outcome, and not violence.

You see in my country, in 1970, I actually had the experience of armed Canadian troops patrolling my neighborhood. We had had our own 9/11, when something called the October Crisis occurred. FLQ terrorists had kidnapped a British diplomat and a Quebec government minister. In that same movement, earlier, that same group had planted bombs. One of them went off not far from where I lived at the time.

This time, there was no violence, thank God. There wasn't that much screaming either. There were a lot of really passionate and lengthy discussions over it by some giants in Canadian political history. On the other hand, Canadian Constitutional reform discussions are quite a good cure for insomnia. Hey, your talking about a country that took over one hundred years to repatriate it's own Constitution back from Britain. We are nothing, if not patient. You think MY posts are long ?


An Englishman, a Canadian and an American were captured by terrorists.

The terrorist leader said: "Before we shoot you, you will be allowed last words. Please let me know what you wish to talk about."

The Englishman replied: "I wish to speak of loyalty and service to the crown."

The Canadian replied: "Since you are involved in a question of national purpose, national identity, and secession, I wish to talk about the history of constitutional process in Canada, special status, distinct society and uniqueness within diversity."

The American replied: "Just shoot me before the Canadian starts talking."


So I look at your great country, it's resources, and it's incredibly rich history- and then I see the type of political debate there that involves so much virulent speech, name calling, and corruption of that same great history. You guys have got so much going for you, it's stunning. If I were to sit back and listen to what's going on with my eyes closed to everything, I'd have to say you must live in some Banana Republic run by people who seem to be madmen, sons of Satan, or perhaps both.
 FooledU2x
Joined: 5/30/2009
Msg: 36
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 5:12:11 AM

]I personally think Americans should keep their noses out of your domestic policies and vise versa, unless it has a direct influence on either one's security.


Hence the need for opening one's mind to education. Some of us actually are interested in other parts of the world instead of remaining ignorant. Canada is only one health system out of many systems throughout the world, yet you don't like suggestions because they're 'foreigners' and you don't wish to learn something from them.
That's pathetic!
 4rumninja
Joined: 11/30/2009
Msg: 37
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 5:42:10 AM
Interesting to see others praise certain posters who constantly bash America at every opportunity....I have been studying Karate since I was 8 years old no matter how long I study I will never fully appreciate what it means to be Japanese...much like our Canadian experts on American politics ...why are Liberals so quick to make disparaging remarks ab out others who dont share their political views?
Seriously if any conservatives referred to any group of Liberals as Teabaggers or any other derogatory term there would be outrage and the poster would be banned from posting....

It is offensive to those who really have concerns about this administrations policies who have no other organization or movement through which they can express their concerns about what is happening in America who have become affiliated with the Tea Party movement to be referred to as Teabaggers...Many who are involved are merely concerned citizens.....How would all of those Obama zealots who support Obama unquestionably as unthinking sycophantic neophytes?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 38
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 7:28:06 AM

Seriously if any conservatives referred to any group of Liberals as Teabaggers or any other derogatory term there would be outrage and the poster would be banned from posting....
WHAT?!?! LMFAO ... I've only been on this site since March 2005 and all I've ever seen from the Conservatives is snotty, derogatory remarks and terms when describing Democrats. The Moderators don't step in ... and are not required to do anything about it unless it becomes a personal attack. Other than that ... the Conservatives have never held back.

... who have become affiliated with the Tea Party movement to be referred to as Teabaggers...Many who are involved are merely concerned citizens.....
Who proudly refer to themselves as "Teabaggers" ... see Message 18. They are the ones who refer to themselves as such. They appear to be proud of what they are doing. They run from town hall meeting to town hall meeting being disruptive ... toting guns and inflammatory degrading signs and posters ... with tea bags dangling from clothes and hats.

I guess I don't understand what the problem here is.

How would all of those Obama zealots who support Obama unquestionably as unthinking sycophantic neophytes?
Well, see there ... that is a good example of the a Conservative referring to Obama zealots as an unthinking "servile person who, acting in his or her own self-interest, attempts to win favor by flattering one or more influential persons" (sycophant) who is "a beginner or novice member of an organization" (neophyte).

So essentially what we have is a proclaimed Conservative referring to Obama zealots as "novice suck ups"? There's nothing flattering about that, but if that's what a person thinks of people who are enthusiastic supporters of Obama ... it's their opinion and they are entitled to it no matter how demeaning it is.

It's apparent (as in Message 18) ...
I am a PROUD "Teabagger" ...
... that the "Teabaggers" (Conservatives proud of being a part of the "Tea Bag Party") appear to be getting a kick out of the demeaning disgusting insinuation of "Teabagging" the Democrats ...
You see, when a "Tea Bagging" happens, there is a Tea BaggER and a Tea BaggEE...
So if someone is upset about being labeled as a "Teabagger" ... perhaps they need to take it up with their fellow "proud-to-be-a-"Teabagger" Conservatives.

Personally, I think the "Teabaggers" are the ones who are getting the shaft from those who are organizing the movement. Aside from the actual organizers, most of the people who are actually carrying the signs will be the ones hurt most by the lack of health care, the lack of insurance.

Millionaires seldom go to the poor house if they need to go to the hospital ... even if they don't have insurance. Poor people who are barely getting by on two (minimum wage) salaries are the ones who will be left with living on the street if they need to go to the hospital.

How many millionaires do you know who are out there helping to feed the homeless? How many millionaire company owners do you know (who sent their business overseas) are out there building shelters for the people they put out of work?

Are the millionaires who are funding the "Tea Party" movement (basically trying to deprive the poor of health care and health benefits) also funding any kind of help for the poor?

No?

Then they are the ones putting the shaft to the very people they encourage to carry the signs, the guns and throw tea bags around.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 39
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 9:13:22 AM

Hence the need for opening one's mind to education. Some of us actually are interested in other parts of the world instead of remaining ignorant. Canada is only one health system out of many systems throughout the world, yet you don't like suggestions because they're 'foreigners' and you don't wish to learn something from them.
That's pathetic!


Opening one's mind and becoming educated has nothing to do with staying out of something that is not their business. But you wouldn't understand that one bit. I have no problem with "suggestions" but I do have problems with those from other countries trying to manipulate a system that they are unfamiliar with because they think their way is better. Isn't that one of your big problems with Bush was that he tried to force the American way of thinking on "foreigners"? But it's quite okay for the reverse to happen, weather the majority agree or not, because you enlightened libs think it should be that way.

Just as pathetic.
 jack-d-ripper
Joined: 2/25/2008
Msg: 40
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 10:22:41 AM
.

The Tea Party embraced and refer to themselves as Tea Baggers.

Whats the Complaint? Usage Members only?

The Tea Party has corrupted the meaning of the Boston Tea party, a Protest of Corporate Tax Breaks and Monopoly killing small business.

Twisted to support Big Business and Monopoly.

The Boston Patriots did not support the India Tea Company.


.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 41
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Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 12:27:16 PM
How would you like it if American conservatives starting sticking their noses in your political system (not that it would ever happen, we have lives to live) and trying to influence it?

Here is where that 'being informed' thingy comes into it... Allow me to educate you a bit with some notable examples...

The U.S. gov't has been sticking thier nose into Canadian politics for as long as there has been a U.S. gov't...

It first started right after the Revolution when the Founding Fathers rather unilaterally decided that Canada wanted to be as free of Britain as they did... without asking the people they were "freeing"... and tried to invade... they found out the hard way that thier sentiments weren't shared...

They tried again about 30 years later... same result...

About another 50 years later the U.S. gov't turned a blind eye to attempts by private armies to invade Canada from the U.S... many U.S. politicians supported them, including the then sitting President...

On a more recent note... A previous P.M. of Canada, one of its most popular, was banned from entering the U.S. by order of the President (Nixon)... seems Nixon thought he was a communist... and that's not even mentioning how vocal the U.S. gov't got when Canada refused to participate in Vietnam... did the same over Iraq... I'm sure you remember how loud and obnoxious they got over that...

When the Canadian gov't made the decision to be the first nuclear armed country in the world to eliminate nuclear weapons from its territory the U.S. gov't went ape-shit and tried to force them to stop...

When the Canadian gov't banned overflights of nuclear armed aircraft, the U.S. gov't went ape-shit, chose to ignore Canadian sovereignty and fly nuclear armed bombers over Canada's capital city... just to prove they could if they wanted to...

When the Canadian gov't enacted cultural content rules for Canadian media... the U.S. had a fit because U.S. companies didn't want it (cost them more money to operate in Canada)... Apparently there is a sense that U.S. companies should be free to operate in Canada under U.S. rules rather than Canadian rules...

Every time the issue of marijuana decriminalization comes up in Canada... the U.S. gov't has a snit fit and does everything it can to force the Canadian gov't to 'toe' the U.S. line...

The U.S. gov't regularly gets its shorts in a knot over the stumpage fees Canada charges CANADIAN companies for CANADIAN trees... and then set about doing everything they can to force the Canadian gov't to charge fees that U.S. companies like... did the same with steel... and grain... and just about every other CANADIAN resource that U.S. companies would like to make money off of...

There seems to be a sense among U.S. politicians that they have a right to dictate Canadian immigration policy... You remember that don't you... seems that the financial interests of U.S. companies (who would lose a lot of money if the borders were closed up too tightly) is more important than Canadian sovereignty...

Virtually every country in the world has recognized Canadian sovereignty over the Canadian High Arctic... except the U.S.... who regularly violates Canadian territorial waters just to show they can...

And we won't even get into the long, sordid history of U.S. extra-territorial law enforcement... attempts to enforce U.S. law on Canadian soil...

And the interesting thing is... the worst offenders in these issues are almost always American conservatives (who aren't nearly as isolationist as they pretend to be... it's more of a one-way street... more like the U.S. does what it wants, where it wants, to whom it wants but everyone else stays out of U.S. concerns)...

So, yeah... Canadians have plenty of reason to be concerned about what goes on in U.S. politics... largely because it almostly always leads to efforts in one form or another to establish "governance without representation", in short, "you do what we want and we'll do what we want"... and it's almost always at its worst when the U.S. conservatives are calling the shots... and that's why you tend to see Canadians having a lot of negative things to say about it when the 'tide' in the U.S. turns to the right and try to be encouraging when it turns to the left... And the currnet crop of far-right "Teabaggers" are among the most dangerous American conservatives to come down the pike in that regard...
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 42
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 12:38:28 PM

Opening one's mind and becoming educated has nothing to do with staying out of something that is not their business.

I am so tired of Americans complaining about Canadian opinions, on a Canadian site.
You have the option of going to American sites, where only American opinions are allowed. But POF is based in Canada and welcomes the thoughts and ideas from anyone in the world with internet access.
I have also noticed that right wing Canadians (yes, they do exist) never get complaints about sticking their nose in American business.

But let's be honest, what happens in America does effect Canada. And it is a symbiotic relationship. Canada is America's largest trading partner, and America is Canada's largest trading partner. We also share security and have treaties for our shared resources.
And although it may be hard to see, American decisions on healthcare do effect Canada and Canadians. One of the reasons Canada has a doctors shortage is because of the rediculous wages a doctor can earn in America. Also several Americans do run to Canada to abuse our healthcare system because they can't afford care in America.
And the whole drug re-importation idea would have a major negative effect to the Canadian system, thank god no politician has been able to approve re-importation.


but I do have problems with those from other countries trying to manipulate a system

You should have a problem with anybody manipulating the system.
But making some comments on the POF forums is not manipulation, it's just sharing of ideas, you know free speech.
With the recent Supreme Court ruling, expect lots of political manipulation from all sorts of "corporations" that have no loyalty to any country.
Heck, tommorrow I can start up a corporation in Canada for about $300, open up an American office for about $20 a year (all I need is a P.O. box) and I can spend as much money as I like trying to manipulate the American political process. And unlike an actual human being, I can make slanderous comments, and if anyone makes a stink, I just shut down the corporation and start up a new one making the same illegal sladerous comments.


a system that they are unfamiliar

It seems like the person you are complaining about has far greater knowledge about the American system than the majority of Americans.

Isn't that one of your big problems with Bush was that he tried to force the American way of thinking on "foreigners"?

I think the keyword is "force".
Canadians giving an opinion of America, on a Canadian website, is in no way force.
Sending an army to a foreign country to topple the government, while killing women and children, is force.

Just as pathetic.

What you wrote above it was deffinitly pathetic.
It screams of "I don't like to lose, so I'm taking my ball and going home".
If you want to discuss politics, expect there to be people with different views then your own, and if you wish to discuss politics on a Canadian site, expect some of those views to come from a Canadian.

Last semester I took a course called "Canadian Business and Government Relations". My professor in the course was American (double Phd in economics and poilitical science).
Should I ignore everything he taught me, because he is American giving views on Canada? Heck, no! He is smart as can be with a vast knowledge of Canada. I found his views to be very enlightning and I looked forward to attending his class (can't say the same thing for Managerial Accounting).

Why is it that someone who isn't even a citizen of our country cares so much about American politics?

Again, what happens in America usually has an effect in Canada.
But there is another reason, American politics is damm entertaining. We don't have a "you're either with us or against us" mentality in Canadian politics. We have 5 parties seated in parliament, none have a majority, this forces parties to work together.

Are Canada's politics really that boring?

For the most part. Our election process only takes a few months and most Canadians are extremely turned off from dirty attack ads.
Our politicians are also a lot more accessable. Most interviews with Canadian politicians happens in the hallway of the house of commons, it's actually rare to see an American style presidential press confrence.

How would you like it if American conservatives starting sticking their noses in your political system (not that it would ever happen, we have lives to live) and trying to influence it?

They already do try and manipulate the Candian system.
They failed when they tried to influence gay marriage rights in Canada. But they have had tremendous success when it comes to marihuana legislation (most Canadians want legalization, but because of American influence, Canadian politicians won't even discuss it).

I am truly interested in why some Canadians are so hell bent on the US becoming more like them.

I don't think many Canadians believe America can be just like Canada.
But Canadians do have empathy, and when we see something in America that is better in Canada, we like to share. And there are things in America that are better then the Canadian equivilent and we try to change. And then there are some things where Canadians just like the Canadian way better, but don't feel America should change.


Politics in America is kind of like football, we usually only gain a few yards at time, and it takes many plays to get a touchdown. My "team" is

This is probably the biggest problem with American politics. Running a country is not a game and should not be treated as if it is a game. There isn't two teams, only one America. If a democrat or republican makes a bad decision, it will have a negative effect on all Americans, not just the ones who voted for the other guy.
When I was a kid, I remember some hard fought political contests, but the people remained Americans.
Now you have people like Sarah Palin claiming that only certain people are true Americans. To me, as a partial American with tons of American relatives, I find it very insulting and completely against American history to claim that only people that fit into some ideological mold are true Americans.
The only team in American politics is team "We the People".

why are Liberals so quick to make disparaging remarks ab out others who dont share their political views?

Do you really think liberals are the only ones playing that game?
In-fact the comment above in itself is exactly what the complaint is making. Not only is the poster making assumptions of other posters political leanings, the comment also gives a negative generalization to all liberals.

How would all of those Obama zealots who support Obama unquestionably as unthinking sycophantic neophytes?

You do realize calling someone a zealot is a disparaging remark.

And just to re-iterate. It was the tea party movement that started calling themselves teabaggers. People on the left just thought it was hilarious.

Why is that the moderators of this site let liberal kumbya singing Obama sycophants...

Oh, the irony.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 43
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 12:52:04 PM
^^^ What those two guys up above me said!!!!

The only thing I'd like to add is that I doubt too many who are posting in here who criticize "Canadian" input ... realize that not all posters who dwell in Canada are "Canadian".

Some are American citizens who have every right to spout off about American politics ... just for the fact that they are indeed voting Americans.

To "Joe" I simply say ... ... well done on that post.

To those who are so concerned what being considered a "Teabagger" represents ... take it to your fellow "Teabaggers" who are getting such a big kick out of "Teabagging" the Democrats (or so they think).

They are the ones getting screwed over ... by the very people who are organizing the "Teabagging".
 Swamp_Hunter
Joined: 2/6/2009
Msg: 44
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 1:15:00 PM
This whole debate is pointless. The progressives (Socialists) are going to keep dissing the Tea Party voters, as self destructive as that arrogant, condescending, elitist, nanny state attitude is... They have obviously chosen to remain in total denial about the root causes for the STRING of losses they've suffered, including the humiliating loss of Kennedy's Senate Seat... This will only further offend and alienate the independent voters, who really decide the middle ground in most elections...

So FINE - let's just LET THEM... As Napoleon once said, "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

You guys are all absolutely right... The day before the election Martha Coakley was a TERRIFIC candidate, the OBVIOUS choice, and everyone in Massachusetts should have voted for her. You were also right about her the day after the election. She was a TERRIBLE candidate, it's no wonder Massachussets rejected her, and her defeat had NOTHING to do with Obama, Socialism, runaway federal spending, the healthcare bill, illegal immigration, fighting terrorism, or any of that other trivial stuff. This was obviously just a total FLUKE because the voters of Massachusetts, and Tea Party voters on general, are all idiots compared to you highly edumacated progressive minded folks... I mean, we racist, uneducated, ignorant, greedy capitalist types types are like mere CHILDREN compared to truly enlightened progressives - right? All this country needs is a good scolding, and we'll all fall back in line, right?

So, don't worry about ANY of it... Just RELAX ;) 2010 is going to be another landslide victory for Socialism... NOTHING is going to stop Obama from "fundamentally transforming America"
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 45
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 2:45:12 PM
Perhaps this debate is pointless to some.Not to me I found out some very interesting information on this "grassroot's" movement.

especially msg 1 and 2,19 and 25.<img src=http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_201.gif border=0>
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 46
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 2:55:00 PM

And Forbes is just a working stiff who "pulled himself up by the bootstraps"... Only among conservative Americans could a movement bankrolled by America's richest conservatives be considered "grassroots"...


lol
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 47
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 4:58:05 PM

I am so tired of Americans complaining about Canadian opinions, on a Canadian site.
You have the option of going to American sites, where only American opinions are allowed. But POF is based in Canada and welcomes the thoughts and ideas from anyone in the world with internet access.



Proved my point. Thanks.

But on your other points, you don't think something as simple as a few posts on a website can manipulate people's thinking? Either you are giving the people as a whole too much credit or you aren't giving enough where you should be.

This site is a dot.com not a dot.ca. I've seen posts from tons of people who didn't have a clue this was a Canadian website (until some Canadian made a statement such as yours above). It isn't written in Canadian (that's a joke for those who take things too seriously) apart from a few "eh's" (and most of those come from an American) and unless you look closely Marcus doesn't advertise it as such. But some day when I'm so bored and the only thing better than suicide would be to waste 2 or 3 hours of time doing so, I'll educate myself on your government a bit and come on here and tell you how badly yours sucks and see how some of you Canadians feel about someone on the outside sticking his nose in your business. I already know how touchy some of you are.

 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 48
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 6:50:08 PM

Proved my point. Thanks.

?????????????

you don't think something as simple as a few posts on a website can manipulate people's thinking?

I think we have a different opinion of what manipulation is.
To me manipulating someones opinion, is to sway an opinion with dishonest tactics. But when it comes to the left-wing posters on this thread, they seem to be telling the truth and being honest. I don't see it as manipulation, only people stating facts and opinions.


Either you are giving the people as a whole too much credit or you aren't giving enough where you should be.

I fully believe the average American can be manipulated (average Canadian as well). I just don't see the majority of the posts coming from Canadians as manipulation.
Of course I do see lots of right-wing Americans consistantly posting lies, that they know are lies, in an attempt to manipulate American minds.

It isn't written in Canadian

You are correct with this statement.
If you look at the forum sections, the humour section uses the American spelling: humor.

This site is a dot.com not a dot.ca. I've seen posts from tons of people who didn't have a clue this was a Canadian website (until some Canadian made a statement such as yours above).

So what. The whole point is that everyone is welcome to post at POF. Why should you have the right to silence others, simply because you don't like what they are saying?
This is a Candian site, and it does not matter if it is advertized that way or not. The owner of the site made it so everyone can share their opinions, with a few rules to keep it friendly.
An American can have a site and keep it open to everyone like POF.
Or if you like, you can start a site and not allow Canadians to post comments.
But right now, this site belongs to a Canadian, and he seems to want people to freely share ideas, regardless of nationality.

I'll educate myself on your government a bit and come on here and tell you how badly yours sucks

I find it very sad that the only reason you would learn about Canada, is so you can insult others. Why would you not just want to learn out of curiosity?

waste 2 or 3 hours of time doing so

If you want to learn enough about the intracacies of Canadian politics to insult Canadians, you will need a lot more than 3 hours. At least if you don't want to come off as a raving idiot.

see how some of you Canadians feel about someone on the outside sticking his nose in your business.

Learn about the Canadian political process, and I will gladley have a discussion about it, negatives and all.

I already know how touchy some of you are.

We get touchy when people lie about Canada. And right-wing Americans love to lie about Canadian healthcare.

If you really do want to learn about Canadian politics, be warned it is vastly different to American politics, but it can be interesting. Our system is based on the British system with a few exceptions. Currently our federal government has four parties seated plus one independant.
But there is a colourful history in Canadian politics. I recommend starting with Louis Riel, then you can check out Quebec seperation and the FLQ crisis.
Enjoy.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 49
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/26/2010 10:06:33 PM

I'll educate myself on your government a bit and come on here and tell you how badly yours sucks

I find it very sad that the only reason you would learn about Canada, is so you can insult others. Why would you not just want to learn out of curiosity?


Actually, those cultural filters would be the most to blame for any "suckiness". There's quite a few things here that Americans would find strange - at least many of them would. See, if I were to take an American or a Canadian and drop them in the right place - they might have a hard time realizing they were in another country. An alien standing on the border would be rather puzzled why these people dressed the same, listened to the same music, drove many of the same cars, and ate many of the same foods.

He'd be puzzled as to why anyone had divided them in two.

It's only once you get below that surface, and spend some time here, that you'd start to see those deeper things showing up.

Personally , I'd think it fascinating to see how some Americans view some of our differences.

One example, relating to the topic at hand, is one "grassroots" movement we had start out West.


In Of Passionate Intensity, Trevor Harrison seeks to explain the origins and subsequent electoral success of the Reform party. Employing a historical-sociological methodology, Harrison uses the case of Reform to address two fundamental questions: "Why do populist parties arise? What factors influence the ideological orientation of such parties" ? The book begins with a well-crafted discussion of populism that outlines and illustrates the often contradictory definitions found in previous work on the subject. As a partial remedy to this conceptual ambiguity, Harrison constructs an alternative theory of populism that argues "populist unrest results from delegitimation crises and the resultant decomposition of previous political alliances" . From this starting point he begins an in-depth study that traces the party's maturation through four stages: roots, rise, legitimation, and transformation. In each stage Harrison explores what he considers to be the political, economic, and social crises that propelled Reform from fringe movement to legitimate contender for political power. The result is an interesting, albeit sometimes jargon-laden, account of the party's development that neatly situates it within the larger context of Canadian political history. Although Of Passionate Intensity has much to recommend it, specifically its theory of populism, the analysis of Reform itself is somewhat less satisfying. Simply stated, Harrison does not tell us much about Reform as a political party. The impression is that of the "outsider looking in," but unsure of how important organizational capacity or internal political considerations are to explaining the party's success.

The strength of Waiting for the Wave is its analysis of the tactical and strategic political calculus that has guided Reform's efforts to become a legitimate political contender. According to Flanagan, the party's policy positions have been driven by Manning's view that populist parties sweep to power on a wave of discontent. To "keep the party afloat and paddling in the troughs between the waves," Flanagan contends, the party has employed five positioning strategies: The Party of the Right, The Party of English Canada, The Party of the West, The Party of the Hinterland, and The Party of the People . he strength of Waiting for the Wave is its analysis of the tactical and strategic political calculus that has guided Reform's efforts to become a legitimate political contender. According to Flanagan, the party's policy positions have been driven by Manning's view that populist parties sweep to power on a wave of discontent. To "keep the party afloat and paddling in the troughs between the waves," Flanagan contends, the party has employed five positioning strategies: The Party of the Right, The Party of English Canada, The Party of the West, The Party of the Hinterland, and The Party of the People. Although complete discussion of these strategies is beyond the scope of this review, even those readers only generally familiar with the party and its message will recognize aspects of all five strategies.

http://tinyurl.com/yk8s4oc


So this is indeed a model that any non-astroturf (ie true populist) party might follow in either country - even given those cultural differences.

Once those forces that create it lessen in intensity, then the party and platform lose their gravitational pull, as it were.



Reform had also failed in 1997 to establish itself as the clear right-wing alternative to the Liberal Party. The Progressive Conservative Party, which had been steadily rebuilt under Charest, enjoyed a modest revival in the 1997 election. It won 20 seats, up from the dismal two it had won during in the 1993 election. The split in the right-wing vote between Reform and the PCs allowed the Liberals to win a second majority government with only 40% of the vote, the combined vote of the Reform and the PCs in 1997 equalled the same amount. Political observers noted that it was a divided right which allowed the Liberals to gain a second majority government, and claimed that if the two parties did not put away their differences, the result would repeat itself.

Manning recognized the frustration by Canada's right-wing proponents and began discussions towards the launch of a new pan-Canadian party, using "United Alternative" ("UA") forums to bring grassroots Reformers together with Tories. The goal was to create a small-c conservative political alternative to the Liberals that could woo Ontarian and Atlantic Canadian voters. Manning was supported by the more right-of-centre "Focus Federally For Reform," while "Grassroots United Against Reform's Demise" ("GUARD") opposed the initiative. The United Alternative proposal created a strong debate in the Reform Party. Manning himself wrote a letter to the effect that he did not want to lead Reform anymore, but would only lead a new party. A leadership vote in 1998 managed to officially put aside the differences, with Manning winning a large majority in support of his leadership. Afterwards, Reform steadily progressed towards creating the United Alternative.

The outcome was the creation of a new party, the Canadian Reform Conservative Alliance (more commonly known as the Canadian Alliance). It fused about half of the Progressive Conservative policies, and half of Reform's policies. Reform disbanded on March 27, 2000 and was folded into the Alliance.

Even though Reform and the Alliance are considered separate parties, former Reform members dominated the new party. The Reform parliamentary caucus, with few exceptions, simply became the Alliance caucus. As a result, the Alliance was widely seen as a renamed and enlarged Reform Party. Critics of the party frequently referred to it as the "Reform Alliance" to underscore its previous incarnation as Reform, at a time when many Canadians east of Manitoba had grown uneasy about the multiple allegations of discrimination and extremism within the Reform Party as portrayed in the media.

Manning stood in the first leadership race for the new party, but lost to the younger and more charismatic Stockwell Day, the treasurer (finance minister) and deputy premier of Alberta.

The creation of the Canadian Alliance, and its eventual merger in 2003 with the Progressive Conservative Party to form the new Conservative Party of Canada, alienated some of the old Reform populists, who saw the merger as the final demise of the former Reform Party and the return of Tory indifference to western Canadian concerns. This led to the creation of a new "Reform Association of Canada". "Bring Back Real Reform" also was created by a fringe group of original Reformers from Ontario, with the aim of bringing back a federal Reform Party. Under the tag "Operation Back to the Future", it was launched in Spring 2005 as an umbrella for all original Reformers across the nation who felt that they were still without a political home. Neither of these groups has attracted any support.

Most of these people were also members of GUARD, were anti-UA, and were generally unsupportive of the Canadian Alliance, seeing it as a political vehicle for a Tory takeover even though the Alliance was dominated by former Reform Party members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Party_of_Canada


This may in fact prove to be a model for the path the "legitimate" Tea Party protesters follow, in the end. I would venture to guess that the astroturf side could never accept this as a model, however.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 50
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History
Teabagger's - a grassroots movement or just more astroturf ?
Posted: 1/27/2010 4:36:52 AM
Monty, you are right, I've been up there many times and on the surface there are no real differences to speak of.

The thing I thought was funny and the only reason I responded to the other guy posting is he completely ignored what I said in the post when I initialed asked you the questions. And all I did was ask for information, I didn't ask to get hammered. I knew it was a matter of time before it happened and it did. I got hammered. And even though I said it was going to happen, and it did, when I made mention of it I got "??????????????????" as a response. So be it.

In politics in America Canadians will find that both sides warp the truth a bit to fit their message. I don't the left any less guilty of this than the right here or anywhere else. The Huffington Post is found guilty of slander just as much as the Drudge report, maybe even moreso. I suppose maybe Canadians differ on that opinion, because they are so much further left than we are.

I would love to wax on this more but I must be off to work.
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