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| | Birth Control and the Death of the Manly ManPage 2 of 2 (1, 2) |
Big, tough, manly men were the main choice of most women because biologically that's who nature would them choose. Big, strong, resilient, likely to survive. It becomes in innate desire fueled by the reproductive system. A woman will like the manly man and just simply think its because she does, but it's a passive effect of natural selection.
Now, in most lower animals, life time mates aren't chosen. Two meet, they mate, they reproduce, alpha male goes off to rinse and repeat, female raises the young. After reproduction it is no longer the big alpha male that's desired, its a more caring, sensitive, and in humans, emotional partner that is wanted.
I smell bias all over the place  . I've been hearing stuff like this for a long time and would like to point out that human social dynamics may have evolved from but is not necessarily determined by a alpha beta omega male/female theories.
As I see it, as demonstrated by opinions, we are dealing with mere speculations. In the midst of all these speculations I wonder how much of an effect birth control has over a females mentality as compared to mind blowing sex. Or a confident attitude. Or crap loads of money.
My point is the significance. Is it trivial enough to abandon for more obvious speculations such as the role great sex and confidence plays as well as the environment and the set of prejudices one attains through life. Or is it so nontrivial that the trend of pop culture can be related to it?
Overall, my worry is the stereotype hiding behind such studies. I doubt "what women go for" can be easily related to birth control for the share fact that other more obvious speculations may play an important part on mentality and attraction.
Case in point, I have two female friends. Both are on birth control. One has never dated a man without a six pack. The other has never dated a man that wasn't Brazillian. I asked the latter why and her response was "When I was younger they gave me the time of day so I grew attracted to them".
The best I can say is that for every tendency a human may have it is necessary to remember that we are dealing with unique individuals and the entire set of things causing a certain tendency. When it comes to women and mental state and who they are attracted to, can we really insinuate a bias on one triviality that may not even play that great a part? I argue that personality environment and prejudices are much greater factors. If anything its an interesting study as to the longevity of a certain culture.
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Nice guys must love brats. Why? because being used and passed over for a brat boy is brat like behavior. Conversely Nice girls must love brats for the same reason. Ironically the nice girl is the same brat who is passing over the nice guy for the brat guy. And the nice guy is the same brat who is passing over the nice girl for a brat guy. An episode of sun set beach comes to mind.
The point. If one claims nice and complains of being too nice then its more likely one is a brat and not nice at all. In the end its all speculation with a sprinkle of bias and narcissism to establish some generality. A generality that may be a delusion. | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/5/2010 11:42:08 AM | I think this whole thread is an interesting biology experiment. For instance, if you are a female and outside of the age range being discussed, you are considered invalid and completely ignored.
It goes to prove what is true of all such discussions of biology: It is not truth being sought, it is validation of ones own opinion that is sought and argued.
SS | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/5/2010 12:19:51 PM |
It goes to prove what is true of all such discussions of biology: It is not truth being sought, it is validation of ones own opinion that is sought and argued.
I totally and absolutely agree. It took me a long time to realize that. What I realize also is that to any biological function, while a persons mentality may be influenced, it does not ultimately determine one's mentality. In discussions such as these I think its important to disregard bias and "observe the tree instead of the branch" (with respect to a wise person who taught me that). | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/5/2010 1:49:39 PM | So I guess what I'd like to know is if any other guys have experienced this?
lol, well what I experienced was women liked me more when I was more groomed. When i was younger i actually "worked" on my appearance. Then something happened and I stopped. The only thing I do now is work out and i don't do that for women. Now for me it's mainly t-shirt and jeans or nothing. I wouldn't say that the Manly man is dying, but I do see a spike in "Male Feminism" my brother loves them damn skinny jeans (something I thought was originally made for females) Que sera, sera! | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/5/2010 4:12:06 PM | There is probably a combination of factors involved, from estrogen mimickers in drinking water, to women less inclined to mate with neanderthals of this age, falling sperm counts, over-copulation responses from Gaia, and a myriad of things we cannot possibly comprehend in the bigger picture of life on Earth. It is no big deal to be a kinder, gentler, neanderthal as the planet evolves. I do draw the line on makeup, though I find it ridiculous no matter the gender or species. Whatever floats our boat, keeps others afloat, and keeps life on earth smiling is all good. And Gents...putting your cell phone next to your reproductive organs is really counter-intuitive. Fry them puppies. Putting it next to your brain...dumber, and dumberer. The species will not go out with a bang, but with a whimper.
"So long, and thanks for all the fish".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojydNb3Lrrs | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/5/2010 5:54:58 PM |
"I dont want to see pictures of you with your shirt off, I dont care how nice your six pack and muscles are"
My interpretation would be that these women want someone with more to offer than just their body. That doesn't mean they aren't attracted to masculine or buff men.
One common trend that I've noticed is that most of the profiles I see this on are those of independent professional women
I'm not surprised. | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/5/2010 8:57:57 PM | OP
I do not follow the logic. I feel that birth control does influence a society's culture, but I do not feel there would be any correlation to the types of men that women choose. However, I have been single for 3 years and was single for 6 years before my last relationship, so I am probably not the best source on the topic. My situation is a result from my wanting a serious and lasting relationship. The women I have dated are simply too cold-footed for me and I do not want to devote another three years of my life to more "maybes."
As a culture, we do not tend to adhere to tradition. We see tradition as an old compass, but why go to places we've already been when we could be unique and find our own path? Perhaps the problem is that in seeking the "new," we consistently realize that everything has been done before and so we give up each failed endeavor to find our own way to continue the search.
Perhaps it is our obsession with innovation that creates such diversity in mate selection? Who knows. | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/6/2010 11:24:49 AM | I think this whole thread is an interesting biology experiment. For instance, if you are a female and outside of the age range being discussed, you are considered invalid and completely ignored.
It goes to prove what is true of all such discussions of biology: It is not truth being sought, it is validation of ones own opinion that is sought and argued.
Actually no. By being outside the discussed age range you are the control group, you are the closest thing we have for a baseline. For there to be an observation of change there has to be something to base it on. The idea I'm putting forward is that a modern change, I.E. something to is relevant to young women in my age group, so someone in your age group is what Im benchmarking against.
Please dont try to troll a threat just because you arent "included"
And I've actually unvalidated my own opinion, a few times now, and changed my thoughts based on what others have said. | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/6/2010 11:37:10 AM |
So I guess what I'd like to know is if any other guys have experienced this?
lol, well what I experienced was women liked me more when I was more groomed. When i was younger i actually "worked" on my appearance. Then something happened and I stopped. The only thing I do now is work out and i don't do that for women. Now for me it's mainly t-shirt and jeans or nothing. I wouldn't say that the Manly man is dying, but I do see a spike in "Male Feminism" my brother loves them damn skinny jeans (something I thought was originally made for females) Que sera, sera!
This is actually the main reason I started this to see if this is something that I just read, or if other people have had experiences that are similar, or at the very least relate-able.
As far as grooming and care in your appearance, I'm sure there is a relation there. The metrosexual clearly puts more thought and effort into his outward physical appearance then the grease monkey that rebuilds engines.
The problem is both of those examples are extremes. Jeans and a t-shirt aren't necessarily sign that you care less for your appearance. I wouldn't wear them if I had a dinner reservation at Morton's, but going out to a bar/club/concert/ect I don't think its completely unacceptable. Especially when there are entire clothing lines dedicated to making jeans and a t-shirt look good.
Perhaps it is our obsession with innovation that creates such diversity in mate selection? Who knows.
I like this concept. As humans it's our nature to rebel against norms, to try to reinvent the wheel, even if it's not necessary. I think that would easily match with the revised theory of compounding influences on how our choices are made. | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/6/2010 12:30:38 PM | from the op:
"So now that you've read this god-awfully long post, any thoughts?"
Well, I think in the future humans will probably be created by the New World Order in vats from pre-selected zygotes and raised to very strict "standards." Marriage and parenting will likely become an impossibility because people will be too busy (enslaved) working off debt on material possessions they were media-mesmerized into buying. Rather than deal with real humans, who by then will all be neurotic and diseased, love partners will be mail order robots selected by computer.
George Orwell's ghost will likely shake his head in disbelief at what we'll have come to. | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/7/2010 6:29:49 AM |
by Viking Chef, msg. 33
Please dont try to troll a threat just because you arent "included"
What? Clearly my original assessment of you is 100% invalid. That will teach me to pay closer attention. The phrase "completely full of yourself" would even be an understatement here. Sounds like a case of adding a little yeast to the brain, a little leaven in the lump.
SS | |
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/7/2010 10:15:29 AM | I think the OP is creating a hopeless mess to untangle by introducing too many variables into the mix. It would be ludicrous to say birth control pills caused "the Death of the Manly Man", or made men into effeminates and metrosexuals.
If anything, men seem cruder (more "manly"?) now than they were fifty years ago. When you look at the old footage, men were clean shaven (how often do you smell after shave these days?), had short hair, no tattoos or piercings, dressed in suits all the time (unless they were blue collar laborers), had polished shoes, spoke well and respectfully, etc, etc. In other words, they were more metrosexual back then than the sort of thug or slob or "tough guy" types you see so prevalently now. At least around here. This is a lower-middle, working-class type place. Maybe it's different in big urban areas. I just don't get the impression men have all turned into wimps or wusses or a bunch of sissies who have more bottles of goo in their bathrooms than women do. Like I said, if anything the change has been in the opposite direction.
Maybe there are some newer studies or some newer thinking that I'm not aware of, but there's a whole chapter (#2) on the bio-social effects of bc pills in Lionel Tiger's 1999 book "The Decline of Males". (He's Charles Darwin professor of anthropology at Rutgers, so he's not somebody who makes crazy stuff up.) I just re-skimmed it and found nothing in there along the lines of what the OP is suggesting. Yes, the bc pill has both subtle and profound effects on social and individual behavior, but it doesn't turn men into faux or wannabe women.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/14/2335871.htm
One tiny piece of the puzzle... the behavior of women on and off the bc pill with regard to men has been studied for a couple of decades. BC pills also alter the reponse of women to other women. For example, women who live together don't synch up their cycles, because the latter are conrolled by the pill.
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| Birth Control and the Death of the Manly Man
Posted: 2/7/2010 11:19:04 AM | "During the past decade, >75% of studies investigating women's cycling mate preferences have demonstrated that women seek specific characters when fertility is maximal: ovulating women prefer more masculine and symmetrical male features (reviewed in Ref. [3]). Fertile women are also particularly attracted to men showing dominance and intrasexual competitiveness "
http://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/fulltext/S0169-5347(09)00263-8
I had read other studies on the subject, but this one seems to attempt to tie many of them together. I'm not sure that I agree with the all conclusions of this study, but it (and its references) seem to support the idea that the pill has an effect on mate selection. | |
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