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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec      Home login  
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 m14shooter
Joined: 10/2/2009
Msg: 26
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We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in QuebecPage 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
They should follow the law of the land or go home. I remember a woman here suing because they wouldn't give her a drivers license without a face shot. Think she is still walking places.
 Funcuz
Joined: 1/16/2009
Msg: 27
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We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/5/2010 10:02:47 PM

No, it's not a "PC argument"... Though it probably helps some to feel more righteous when phrased that way... It's a RIGHTS argument...

Nope...it's a PC argument. You want to pander to the bleeding-heart crowd and you think this is the way to do it.
And how is it a rights argument ? Oh...because you think that quasi-religious beliefs are some sort of a right and to deny them as rights is offensive to those that adhere to their beliefs (even when they have no foundation in religion)

The other stuff... The contentions of fraud, criminal behaviour and absolute refusal to remove it under any circumstances... THAT is the strawman...

Oh really ? Well then let's all have our pictures taken with our faces covered. Of course , I never said anything about "under any circumstances". Your argument is so weak that now you're resorting to just making stuff up. Good job

1) They are not forbidden to remove the niqab (that's the veil part)... That only applies when done in front of men who are not related to them... There is absolutely NO restriction to removing the veil in front of other women regardless of relationship...

So what happens when the government agent she's dealing with is male ? Right...let's accommodate her not-even-religious beliefs.

2) The provision for wearing a niqab does not necessarily apply to facial photographs... In many places where women regularly do wear a niqab, they must remove it for things like passport photos, etc... Except the picture is usually not taken in full public view of men... And in the case of a necessary professional interaction, such as a doctor or other where it is absolutely necessary, even the rule about non-related men can be foregone when necessary...

Then what's your issue here ? That the government is putting into law what no Muslim woman has any problem with anyway ? You're just arguing because you think this is an example of religious intolerance and therefore you've got to "defend our rights". If this is such a pliable "rule" (or whatever it is) then I would imagine that no Muslim woman (or man) is going to take issue with it.


3) In most instances of gov't services where picture ID is required, the comparison between picture and face is only done at the intial application... From that point on the files are typically referenced by Name, SIN, or other case ID number... Picture ID/facial comparison is rarely required as proof of entitlement after that as the file is already associated with the name/SIN/case ID... All that is typically done at that point is to compare the ID itself to the record on file... It is no more possible for seven people to claim one benefit on the same ID than it is for one person to claim seven benefits on the same ID... Whether you can see their faces or not...

First of all , I never said that seven people would attempt to claim benefits off of one ID. D'uh for you. Nobody CAN do that. What people do is get multiple IDs. That never occurred to you ?
Secondly , I'm really hoping that you're not a government worker in charge of handing out benefits. In fact , I'm glad you don't work at an airport , sell booze , or stand behind a bank till all day. Apparently you don't think people lie about who they are.

little Miss White-bread

Good grief ... can you show your racism against whites just a little more please ? Or are you going to turn around now and say "Little miss Brown-bread" ? Self-loathing whites are almost always the result of PC brainwashing and it's apparent that you've bought into all of it. Why are you guys always so predictable this way ? Let me guess...you're offended that I'd say "Little miss Brown-bread" but you see nothing wrong with you saying "Little miss White-bread". You don't actually have to hate yourself just for being white you know. In fact , you don't have to hate anybody anywhere at any time so instead of attacking what you figure is the one group of people you think it's safe to attack , why don't you try to NOT be a racist even if you think it's excused by your being a member of said race. Who knows ... maybe when you realize that being a member of the majority doesn't automatically make you wrong by default , you might recognize the common sense of the government (and by extension the public) wanting to know who it/they are dealing with.

There is nothing about the provision of the vast majority of gov't services that prevents her from working for the gov't (how does her niqab prevent her from filing papers, working a computer database, performing tax return audits or, in most cases, even serving the 'front counter')...

Because every now and then people actually have to apply for jobs if they want to get them. If she won't show her face then how do you figure she'll get a job with the government ? Mind you , I wouldn't be surprised.

Really...?!? If nobody cares then why all the investment in the issue...? Why are all those people who "don't care" thinking this is a necessary thing...? Why would you even comment on the objections if you "don't care"...?

That's a cute little trick. Take everything out of context and then reply to the parts you cherry-picked because it suits your agenda.
You made an issue when you insinuated that people would be somehow shocked or offended by a woman wearing a veil at all. You claimed that this would be too much for our Victorian sensibilities and that the problem was that we were all prudes. Don't you even remember what YOU SAID ? Apparently not. But here...since you don't have the ability to relate one statement to another without assistance , I'll modify the statement I made for your benefit :
Nobody's delicate sensibilities are going to be offended by the sight of a woman wearing a veil.
Of course , that was never the issue but please , stick with your strawman . It's gold .
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 28
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/5/2010 11:13:08 PM

Secondly , I'm really hoping that you're not a government worker in charge of handing out benefits. In fact , I'm glad you don't work at an airport , sell booze , or stand behind a bank till all day. Apparently you don't think people lie about who they are.


Assume much...? Often, or just now...?

Good grief ... can you show your racism against whites just a little more please ? Or are you going to turn around now and say "Little miss Brown-bread" ? Self-loathing whites are almost always the result of PC brainwashing and it's apparent that you've bought into all of it. Why are you guys always so predictable this way ? Let me guess...you're offended that I'd say "Little miss Brown-bread" but you see nothing wrong with you saying "Little miss White-bread". You don't actually have to hate yourself just for being white you know. In fact , you don't have to hate anybody anywhere at any time so instead of attacking what you figure is the one group of people you think it's safe to attack , why don't you try to NOT be a racist even if you think it's excused by your being a member of said race. Who knows ... maybe when you realize that being a member of the majority doesn't automatically make you wrong by default , you might recognize the common sense of the government (and by extension the public) wanting to know who it/they are dealing with.


Ah, so now we fall to the "self-hating reverse racist" canard... And who was it that was going on about logical fallacies like "non-sequiter" and "strawman"...? Ah well, when all else fails...

Now, what was that you were saying about "just making stuff up"...?

Because every now and then people actually have to apply for jobs if they want to get them. If she won't show her face then how do you figure she'll get a job with the government ?

Really...? And how does her wearing a niqab change her qualifications...? How does it change her answers to interview questions...? How does it change any prior work history she might have...? Why is it absolutely necessary to see her full face to know she is qualified for the position...?

That's a cute little trick. Take everything out of context and then reply to the parts you cherry-picked because it suits your agenda.

Well here... I'll quote it again, the full sentence for clarity and "context"... I'll even highlight the part originally omitted for everyone's benefit... Followed by my statement...

Nice attempt to introduce the non-sequitur of Canadians (or anyone else) being aghast and in shock at her wearing a burqa but we all know that nobody cares and it's a straw-man argument the PC crowd loves to use to shame people into agreeing with them. It won't work anymore (the '90's are over)

Now, how about you point out for those of us who are "hard of reading" where the following statement missed the "context"...?

Really...?!? If nobody cares then why all the investment in the issue...? Why are all those people who "don't care" thinking this is a necessary thing...? Why would you even comment on the objections if you "don't care"...?

Well...?

You made an issue when you insinuated that people would be somehow shocked or offended by a woman wearing a veil at all. You claimed that this would be too much for our Victorian sensibilities and that the problem was that we were all prudes.

Really...?!? And where did I say that...? Care to quote it exactly and show how it says what you have interpreted it as saying...?

Again, what was that you were saying about "just making stuff up"...?

First of all , I never said that seven people would attempt to claim benefits off of one ID. D'uh for you. Nobody CAN do that. What people do is get multiple IDs. That never occurred to you ?

It doesn't take a niqab to do that (multiple ID's)... Now how about you tell us exactly how banning niqabs prevents that since they are not necessary to achieve such a thing...? And while you are at it, tell us how it would in any way make detecting such fraud easier since doing so is difficult even now with full-face photo ID and no niqab...? You see, the unfortunate problem with this argument is that there is no one single Yves or Yvette who scrutinizes all ID... Most gov't workers see so many applicants and each applicant so rarely and briefly that they aren't likely to connect different names to the same face unless they see the person twice in relatively short order and are unlikely to get more than one or two case files for the same 'con' (which is a big part of the reason such 'cons' usually get away with it for so long, niqab or no)... Laying "multiple ID fraud" at the hem of a niqab is a non-starter because it does nothing to address the actual reality of "multiple ID fraud"...
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 29
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/5/2010 11:24:14 PM

Then what's your issue here ? That the government is putting into law what no Muslim woman has any problem with anyway ? You're just arguing because you think this is an example of religious intolerance and therefore you've got to "defend our rights". If this is such a pliable "rule" (or whatever it is) then I would imagine that no Muslim woman (or man) is going to take issue with it.

That might hold water if the existing regulations for gov't photo ID didn't ALREADY provide for full-face shots (but they do)... Or, if the law was JUST about mandating full-face shots for all photo ID... But it isn't, is it...? NO, it's about denying a full range of gov't benefits and employment opportunities based on a simple piece of fabric... About denying benefits and employment opportunities simply because she covers her nose and mouth... The interesting thing will be the next time someone faces a gov't worker with one of those particulate masks that are becoming so common during cold/flu season and complains because they can't see their full face...
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 30
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We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 1:43:02 AM
Sure wish we would stop pandering to the muslims here in America. Everyday they test us. Everyday we relent.


"They" can't be separated from "us" because "they" are just as much a part of "us" as YOU are. You are testing us today, but today we won't relent. Happy?


what happens to the burqa when these women go through the airport security?........are they exempt because of their traditional vows or no different than any other passenger?
Of course not. Fying is not a right. If one wants to fly, one has to submit to the security procedures.
 frankster_p
Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 31
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 2:35:53 AM
Sure wish we would stop pandering to the muslims here in America. Everyday they test us. Everyday we relent.
"They" can't be separated from "us" because "they" are just as much a part of "us" as YOU are. You are testing us today, but today we won't relent. Happy?
--------
Can we stop pandering to the weird chritian right too then? they are scarier, and probably more dangerous.
 killene
Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 32
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:01:28 AM

Are you so completely clueless that you can't imagine how allowing people the right to keep their identity hidden under any and all circumstances paves the way for abuse of a system ? I'm just asking because apparently you have no idea how keeping a mask on allows a bank robber to remain anonymous. I'm not saying that these Muslim women are going to go robbing banks but if you can't figure out how anonymity is achieved by keeping your face hidden I can only question just how heavy the rock you live under is.



This is the one part of the argument that I have to I wonder about.. ...Behind the veil of a Burqa could be anybody with anything..
Yet how are we to identify them or who is actually underneath the burqa...
We know that someone is up to know good when they come into a convenience store with their face and head covered, yet why not a Burqa.
As said in msg 25 these women would probably never do any type of criminal activity...but there are certain activities in our country that do not allow anonymity.
Oh wait have there not been a few Burqa wearing people that were carrying bombs, blowing themselves and others up...But that only happens in other countries; it would not happen in our country.
I believe everyone's freedom to practice and worship their religion as they want as long as it does not infringe on the laws of the country they want to live in..
 SaharaM
Joined: 4/9/2009
Msg: 33
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We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:13:23 AM

Yet how are we to identify them or who is actually underneath the burqa...


If you want to walk around with a Mickey Mouse costume on all day, you can. You of course have to reveal yourself at appropriate times when identification is required, but how that could work for these women has already been discussed at length, and that doesn't seem to be at the heart of your concern.

It is not my right (or yours) to see others' faces simply for your own level of comfort, any more than it is your right to demand a stranger identify himself.
 De Adra
Joined: 8/29/2009
Msg: 34
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:33:51 AM
Burka-wearing gunmen raid French bank

By Henry Samuel in Paris
Published: 3:24PM GMT 08 Feb 2010

Two burka-wearing bank robbers have pulled off a heist near Paris using a handgun concealed beneath their full Islamic veil.

Employees let the pair through the security double doors of the banking branch of a post office, believing them to be Muslim women. But once inside, the men flipped back their head coverings and pulled out a gun, officials said.

They seized 4,500 euros (£4,000) in cash, according to staff at the branch in Athis Mons, just south of Paris, and made their getaway.

The raid comes as France is looking into ways of restricting - or banning - the use of the head-to-toe Islamic veil on the grounds it is incompatible with the values of the republic.

Last month a parliamentary report called for a ban in schools, hospitals, government offices and on public transport.

Jean-François Copé, the leader of President Nicolas Sarkozy's Right-wing UMP party in parliament, wants to go further, and has presented a bill to make it illegal for anyone to cover their faces in public on security grounds.

The unusual bank heist, carried out on Saturday, will provide ammunition to supporters of a blanket ban due to security concerns.

President Nicolas Sarkozy has declared the burka "not welcome" in France, where the concept of secularism in the public sphere is considered sacrosanct. Mr Sarkozy favours legislation to outlaw it, but has stopped short of calling for a full ban and has warned against stigmatising Muslims.

According to the interior ministry, only around 1,900 women wear the burka in France, which is home to around six million Muslims.

On Sunday, Nadine Morano, the French families minister, said foreigners who come to live in France should sign a contract recognising that the wearing of the full Islamic veil is banned.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 35
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:37:16 AM
I wonder how many actual burqa-wearers there could be in Quebec. From my understanding it's primarily a south Asian (usually Pashtun) custom, the full burqa. Quebec may have a high number of Afghan or Pakistani Pashtuns, I really don't know, but to relate it to my own daily observations here around the Chicago metro area for instance I can safely say I have never so far seen a Muslim woman in a full burqa. Abayas / niqabs (as seen in the Gulf Arab countries) I have seen a handful only in recent years.

Much more common are the hijabs (hair coverings only) , and usually these are accompanied by 'Western' clothes, around this area at least. I've never understood how the hijab could offend anyone, even though I've heard some have wanted even this banned in some schools and other places in France. I think that's definitely an excessive bit of banning in supposedly free countries.
 TallBlondeSwan
Joined: 2/13/2010
Msg: 36
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 10:12:34 AM
When Americans go to foreign countries and ignore the customs, they are called arrogant and selfish. Yet foreigners can come to the US and ignore the customs and actually demand that laws be changed just for them and some people think it's just fine. Interesting...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 37
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 11:59:25 AM


When Americans go to foreign countries and ignore the customs, they are called arrogant and selfish. Yet foreigners can come to the US and ignore the customs and actually demand that laws be changed just for them and some people think it's just fine. Interesting...


This is a conservative argument but its not a very good one. It's also a logical fallacy... the argument from antiquity. "Things were like this in the good old days and they shouldn't change..."

Well in the good old days, women were not asked their opinion about the laws of the land, either

By your own logic, we'd have to ask you to keep silent and ask your significant other why you aren't back in the kitchen making us a tasty pie while we discuss matters of state over brandy and cigars? I wonder what your response to that "good old days" custom would be.

I imagine a long string of expletives would probably be aimed at anyone who suggested it.

Ask any anthropologist or historian. Customs are most certainly NOT fixed or written in stone and adapt over time to meet the needs of changing populations. People who want things to "remain the way they were" often are using this as an excuse for something else...often, but not always, xenophobia or bigotry.

If changes can be made that do not otherwise affect you, why should it be an issue?
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 38
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 12:18:45 PM
^^ True. Yet at the same time I honestly can see her point about Muslims coming to non-Muslim countries and trying to bring their whole way of life (much of which will not be a good fit, obviously), such as the burqa (which I still say is rare here) or even the abaya/niqab, or even some of the male Islamic dress and so on. I'm not saying they must abandon it, far from it. But at the same time when we Westerners go to the Muslim countries of the Middle East or south Asia, we must carefully respect all of their social and cultural mores and sensibilities. (A British couple is apparently going to have to do a month in jail in Dubai for "public indecency"; a bit of kissing at a restaurant...).

But I guess the only argument I could make (have made to myself numerous times in fact) about this is that those societies make no pretenses about being free societies, religiously free or really very "free" in other meaningful ways either. You go to the Gulf Arab countries you know you're entering societies that are predominantly devoutly Sunni Muslim, and quite conservative at that, and there is no "religious freedom". No one ever told you there was going to be.

Whereas, they come here, and , well, I'm sure even the most ignorant amongst them know well of our first Amendment, or Canada's charter, or Europe's religious freedoms, etc.... so we kind of make our own bed, so to speak, in a way, on this kind of thing. Touting our free societies where all immigrants are welcome, and welcome to worship and live as they please (without hurting others obviously), therefore we can't expect them to say, 'Ok I'll shave my beard and my wife will remove her niqab because in this nation it is not really allowed'.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 39
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 1:27:12 PM
The limit is, of course as you point out... what rights and freedoms in a civil/secular state that you may wish to impose upon yourself can be conceded to so long as they do not greatly interfere with the normal day to day operations of society.

It is a minor concession to this citizen's view of chastity. So long as the citizen also realizes that their view of religious law ended as soon as they entered this nation and it will not be usable as a defense in any court of law to support beating a spouse or a child, permitting genital mutilation, or attempting to enforce religious laws on any of the populace at large.

The day any overly politically correct judge allows the secular/civil nature of the law to slip from his mind in a feeble minded attempt to coddle anyone's religion so that they may cause harm to themselves, a family member, or another citizen, be they Muslim, Jehovah's Witness refusing a blood transfusion, or radical Dominionist attacking an abortion clinic, then we have opened the slippery slope to ruin.

A piece of clothing is not yet that slippery slope however and I have yet to see one piece of convincing argumentation in it's favour.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 40
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 1:46:48 PM
It's been pointed out that this is an ethnic/cultural affect, ...not a purely religious stricture. As such, it really shouldn't be a Charter appeal case IMO, as long as this law doesn't extend to public places beyond government service offices.
 fishiesfishies
Joined: 9/5/2009
Msg: 41
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 3:29:54 PM
i agree with you..... we can't tout we are the nation of diversity and all are welcome, and then start being selective as it suits your purposes...

but what happened to merry christmas and all that....why would these immigrants run away from the repressed regime they don't like in their own country, yet they want to bring it to their newly adopted country?
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 42
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 3:46:06 PM

why would these immigrants run away from the repressed regime they don't like in their own country, yet they want to bring it to their newly adopted country?

This is a bit of a red herring considering the context of freedom of self determination, ...isn't it?

I remember when a similar debate came about from the Sikh turban and the RCMP, which IMO, went as it should as there has been a Sikh presence in Canada for over a century, so when I see the, "why don't they just go home" argument, one has to point out that: They ARE home. The same goes for the recent Kirpan controversy, which was just ridiculous arguments based in xenophobia, with no recognizance of reality.

One must be careful where (and why) the line is drawn, before one draws blanket conclusions.

There are times when cultures clash, and with a priority towards cultural diversity, ...the Charter of Rights and Freedoms recognizes this and balances the rights of individuals and the greater good better than any other such constitutional document on the planet (IMO).
 puppet master
Joined: 10/12/2007
Msg: 43
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 3:46:28 PM
How does a woman covering her face infringe on my rights?[?quote]

perhaps it dosen't directly...but consider this scenerio:

my 3 youngest children happen to have a muslim father; black muslim from west africa.

now although neither of my 2 girls wear burga's, hajib's or any other muslim attaire, they are under law allowed to attend school, ride buses, partake in sports, go to the bank, get on a plane, and a hundred other things fully veiled if they so choose.

my son however is not allowed on the bus with his hoodie, hat or balaclava covering his face. he is not allowed to enter a bank with his face obscured. he is not allowed to board a plane or cross a border......he's actually been denied entry into a movie theater pending removal of his hoodie.

he is therefore being discriminated against; he does not have he same rights as his sisters.

and neither do i, or most of you.........

this issue has very little to do with religious freedom, but it does have to do with the equality and rights of all canadians. if my daughters or any other muslim woman has the right to obscure their faces and therefore their identies; then so should we all.

and for the record none of the women in my exes family would dream of wearing the veil; nor do they wear hajibs. they never have, and never will. although their gender based roles and expectations are religiously and culturally very different from mine and my daughters; we do agree that the wearng of the burqa is nothing more than a symbol of female diminishment.


ooopsssssssss........screwed up the quote thing... :)
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 44
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 5:28:31 PM

(fishiesfishies) but what happened to merry christmas and all that....why would these immigrants run away from the repressed regime they don't like in their own country, yet they want to bring it to their newly adopted country?


The answer is depressingly simple: because no-one considers the imposition of their values on another, to be in any way "oppressive".

When you're part of the group doing the oppressing, you can't see the oppression...

Jack
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 45
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History
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 8:19:43 PM
With all due respect to any of our notions of faith, opression, or misogony burqas are a security risk. Not just from bombs, but also fraud. I don't expect any guys with funny hats and robes to get a break in the line at the airport either.
 fishiesfishies
Joined: 9/5/2009
Msg: 46
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 9:44:24 PM
not interested in conforming to their wishes as a natural born citizen of this great country, amending the well wishes of a tradition that has been with us just so that we don't offend the newcomers....merry christmas to you!
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 47
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History
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/6/2010 10:08:07 PM

I remember when a similar debate came about from the Sikh turban and the RCMP, which IMO, went as it should as there has been a Sikh presence in Canada for over a century, so when I see the, "why don't they just go home" argument, one has to point out that: They ARE home. The same goes for the recent Kirpan controversy, which was just ridiculous arguments based in xenophobia, with no recognizance of reality.

One must be careful where (and why) the line is drawn, before one draws blanket conclusions.


Again, I concur 0ne hundred percent. These incidents were things that I saw as being representative of the cloth from which we are cut as a country. It's the same with supporting things like the chador, or headscarfs, which I think is something we must support as well as part of the elements of Islamic faith. I see Muslim women dressed like that every day here, and I think it's great. Some also look exceptionally great in how they carry it off. At Tim's today, there was this one young woman with a headscarf , trimmed in a glittering purple braid of sorts, and I thought she looked terrific.

We also have an obligation in society to support the liberal moderate side of Islam, and Muslim women in their fight against such a garment. We cannot betray them, and leave them victims of the less tolerant side of Islam.

Again, even the Muslim Canadian Congress has called for a total ban.


But the best way to support Muslim women would be to say we oppose both racist Islamophobes and the burqa. We’ve been silent on too many things out of fear we’ll arm the right wing.

The best way to debunk the burqa as an expression of Muslim faith is to listen to Muslims who oppose it. At the time of Mr. Straw’s comments, a controversy erupted when a university dean in Egypt warned students they would not be able to stay at college dorms unless they removed their burqa. The dean cited security grounds, saying that men disguised as women in burqa could slip into the female dorms.

Soad Saleh, a professor of Islamic law and former dean of the women’s faculty of Islamic studies at Al-Azhar University — hardly a liberal, said the burqa had nothing to do with Islam. It was but an old Bedouin tradition.

It is sad to see a strange ambivalence toward the burqa from many of my fellow Muslims and others who claim to support us. They will take on everything — the right wing, Islamophobia, Mr. Straw, Mr. Sarkozy — rather than come out and plainly state that the burqa is an affront to Muslim women.

I blame such reluctance on the success of the ultra-conservative Salafi ideology — practiced most famously in Saudi Arabia — in leaving its imprimatur on Islam globally by persuading too many Muslims that it is the purest and highest form of our faith.

It’s one thing to argue about the burqa in a country like Saudi Arabia — where I lived for six years and where women are treated like children — but it is utterly dispiriting to have those same arguments in a country where women’s rights have long been enshrined. When I first saw a woman in a burqa in Copenhagen I was horrified.

I wore a headscarf for nine years. An argument I had on the Cairo subway with a woman who wore a burqa helped seal for good my refusal to defend it. Dressed in black from head to toe, the woman asked me why I did not wear the burqa. I pointed to my headscarf and asked her “Is this not enough?”

“If you wanted a piece of candy, would you choose an unwrapped piece or one that came in a wrapper?” she asked.

“I am not candy,” I answered. “Women are not candy.”

I have since heard arguments made for the burqa in which the woman is portrayed as a diamond ring or a precious stone that needs to be hidden to prove her “worth.” Unless we challenge it, the burqa — and by extension the erasure of women — becomes the pinnacle of piety.

But the Muslim community must ask itself the same question: Why the silence as some of our women fade into black either as a form of identity politics, a protest against the state or out of acquiescence to Salafism?

As a Muslim woman and a feminist I would ban the burqa.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/opinion/03iht-edeltahawy.html



Mona Eltahawy, op-ed contributor to the New York Times wrote, “I am a Muslim, I am a feminist and I detest the full-body veil, known as a niqab or burqa. It erases women from society and has nothing to do with Islam but everything to do with the hatred for women at the heart of the extremist ideology that preaches it.”

http://religious-persecution.suite101.com/article.cfm/french-burqa-ban-to-reduce-radical-islam-threat




BELGIUM
Several towns have passed municipal bylaws that ban the niqab in public places. The town of Maaseik was the first to implement a ban, and women there can be fined 150 euros for wearing the niqab. The burqa, meantime, is banned in parts of Belgium’s Flemish-speaking region. Onlookers speculate that the burqa may soon be banned in Brussels and the French-speaking region of Wallonia, which is home to a third of country’s population.

ITALY
In January, the Italian government said it is debating legislation that would ban face-covering veils, which Equal Opportunities Minister Mara Carfagna called a “sacrosanct battle to defend the dignity and rights of immigrant women.” Ms. Carfagna said a law is being studied that would ban the burqa and niqab, which she said are not religious symbols. The country’s Charter of Values, Citizenship and Immigration states that face coverings are unacceptable, but does not deem veils illegal.

DENMARK
Earlier this year, the government announced it would limit face-covering burqa and niqab veils in public, but stopped short of introducing an outright ban. Stating the veils had “no place in Danish society,” the centre-right government said it would not enact a general ban but would allow schools, public authorities, and companies to determine their own restrictions. It said it would soon present a bill that would prohibit anyone from forcing a woman to wear a burqa or niqab. The government said it was also considering a bill that would require witnesses in courtrooms to lift their veil to identify themselves.

EGYPT
The face-covering niqab is neither enforced nor embraced. In fact, the government has made numerous attempts to ban the veils under certain circumstances. In 2001, a woman wearing the niqab was prevented from using the library at the University of Cairo. She took her case to the country’s Supreme Court, which ruled that a total ban on the niqab was unconstitutional. The court did, however, recommend that women wearing the veil be forced to reveal their faces to female security guards for the sake of identification. Last fall, the University of Cairo was again at the centre of the niqab debate in Egypt. Then, a top Islamic cleric in Egypt banned students from wearing face-covering veils in classrooms and dorms at the university, and extended the ban to al-Azhar, Sunni Islam’s leading university. That announcement was met with protests and threats of lawsuits, prompting a revocation of a ban at the schools. In 2008, a ban on nurses wearing full veil was announced, but has not been enforced in law.

MALAYSIA
Although head-scarves are permitted in government offices, public servants are forbidden from wearing the face-covering niqab.

TURKEY
In Turkey, where the majority is Muslim, all forms of head-scarves have been banned in universities for decades, when the government was staunchly secular. In 2008, under leadership with ties to Islamist parties, the government attempted to lift the ban. However, those attempts were quashed by the country’s Constitutional Court.

TUNISIA
Tunisia banned Islamic head-scarves in public places in 1981. In recent years, enforcement of the ban has been ramped up in the Muslim country.

UNITED KINGDOM
Earlier this year, the UK Independence Party called for a ban on burqas. Not long after, Conservative MP Philip Hollobone urged the House of Commons to seriously consider banning the burqa. “Wearing a burqa is like going round with a paper bag over your head,” Mr. Hollobone reportedly said. In the absence of an outright ban, a smattering of cases illustrate a level of intolerance in schools for face-covering veils. In 2006, a teaching assistant was suspended and later fired from her job for wearing the niqab while teaching English class, which the school said hindered the children’s learning. The case prompted then-Prime Minister Tony Blair to remark that the veil was a “mark of separation. In 2009, a UK college banned a Muslim student from enrolling because she refused to take off her burqa. The woman was reportedly turned away after she refused a request to remove her veil for identity purposes. Over the years, several British primary and secondary schools have passed uniform codes for students. When it comes to courtrooms, it is not illegal to wear a face-covering veil, but the final decision lays with the presiding judge.

NETHERLANDS
In Netherlands, where only dozens of Muslim women wear face-covering veils, there is no outright ban on the burka or the niqab. However, face-covering veils are banned in primary and secondary schools and, as of 2008, burqas and niqabs are barred from universities and colleges. The ban also extends to public transportation. The government has said it does not plan on introducing a general ban on burkas, but has said it wants to forbid civil servants from wearing the garment.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/posted/archive/2010/03/25/muslim-veil-laws-from-around-the-world.aspx


There isa reason for this growing move towards banning the burqua worldwide, in both Islamic and non-Islamic countries, and it's got litle to do with xenophobia or hatred of Muslims.

It's got far more to do with woman's rights in secular society, and security issues, as well as a "push back" against the fundamentalists power struggle within communities - one that many Muslims (especially women) are concerned with. If this handful of women (and those that want them totally covered) grow in a free environment - then it far more likely that they will face threats to veil themselves as those numbers grow larger over time.

They will be the first targets of that increasing power base, and we owe them some backing to prevent that.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 48
We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/7/2010 12:39:22 AM
In a way, was implying similarly in my post that should any woman of the Islamic faith choose not to wear the burqa, this county should be prepared to back her up against the fallout that would surely occur.

The rights of the individual should be paramount, IMHO, provided they do not overtly interfere with the rights of the society to function, nor that they also cause harm to that same individual.

So you would not be permitted to remain veiled while someone establishes facial identity and could and should be refused service on those grounds unless identity can otherwise be established with certainty.
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 49
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We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/7/2010 4:19:42 AM

Quebec is an exception to that rule.


Quebec is an exception to every rule! >:/





They" can't be separated from "us" because "they" are just as much a part of "us" as YOU are. You are testing us today, but today we won't relent. Happy?


I couldn't believe his response!

Great comeback though! :D
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 50
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We Want to See Your Face...The new Burqa law in Quebec
Posted: 4/7/2010 10:05:48 AM
look, the police would stop your car, or you on the street if you had your face covered with a balaclava,(with say a loose long overcoat)
without exception,and i for one am perfectly happy about this
quebec has a huge muslim minority, these people of peace, had bombs going off every week during the war between iran and irak, i know i remember hearing them go off on rue maisoneuve
belgium, some central european countries have laws for outlawing covering your face
france is very close to passing a law
as far as it having anything to do with the muslim faith, that is a lie, it has everything to do with, the very radical, cultural elements of islam,(and that is at most a grave danger to society, and at least disrespect for our western culture, and is view of women) the only rule there religion has is that they dress modestly
its high time, the laws of our country, and all western countries, pass laws protecting all women and children, and stop being so politically correct , especially since covering your whole body and all of your face has nothing to do at all with any religion, only the political and cultural views of the people doing it, and i would say that 100 % of those that do it , HATE the western culture
i do not believe i am anti muslim,once again, i will say that it has nothing at all to do with religion, but hate towards our western values
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