Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Single Parents  > Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 sarniafairyboy
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 101
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parentPage 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
^

uh, no need to debate'

but
b) The society is facing today challenges that we didn't have 50 years ago. There are hundreds if not thousands of variables in play: how today you need two revenues to be able to makes ends meet where as before you could handle it with one revenue, how children are "hurried" today toward responsibilities as fast as possible because parents have no more time, how many women today also choose to work, leaving children in the care of strangers, the impact of globalization, the impact of the increase of population, the impact of technology (cells, computers, video games, television) and the influence of marketing strategies, the shift of the society toward consumerism, and so much more. To compare children from 50 years ago to children today, and assume all the changes is linked to the impact of "listening to your kids" is a huge generalization.(ConsciousSoul, #65)


Note that I never said this:



you said that 'this' generation of kids has it tougher than previous generations ,and I said I do not believe that in many respects.(SFB, #93)


I never said that kids had it tougher today. Nor did I ever said that the 50s were easier, or tougher. I only said that 50 years ago, society was different - VASTLY different. In that saying that kids today are XYZ as opposed to 50 years ago, because of the parenting philosophy I advocate, is a huge generalization.


I still think you exaggerate the changes ..there were hundreds, if not thousands, of variables 50 years ago too.

"we" tend to have this 'idyllic' view of life in the 1950's , or before then, as SO 'simple" & 'peaceful' and less harried.

It's probably easier to think of it that way if you never lived in the period (which I have not myself, but just trying to empathize with those who did)

I don't think that if you coudl time-travel back then the people would think their lives were so simple and stress-free, and peaceful, and idyllic, nor would you find it that way yourself.

there were plenty of things to stress about then as well, esp. if you are the type of person to stress about things and succumb to pressure. It's often more the person & how they react to outside influences, than external events.

Polio, & the constant threat of imminent all-out global thermonuclear war, etc, etc. were very real concerns in the 1950's. People also had concerns about making a living, getting by, all the usual things that we have today.

there may be a few new things we have now, they didn't have, but conversely they had things we didn't ahve to worry about. Some diseases have been all but eradicated in N. America & Europe, at least, for one thing.

also we have mor eeducation & experiecne, and 'should' be able to understand many of these stresses better

true there are more families with bothe parents working now, but not "EVERY " household was the stereotypical daddy works, mommy stays home type in the 1950's-1960's either.

that is a sterotype we often adopt.

as for the "need "For both to work, bnot sure that's true

we are now in general far more materialistic and want more, more & more "Things" than previous generations did, true. perhaps that drives the "need" for dual incomes.

the average family house size has increased very substantially from the 50's to now, from about 1500 s.f. then I think to almsot 2,500 s.f. now

and that is for a smaller average family size now (2 kids ) than back then (3 or 4).

most families now have at least 2 cars, often luxury SUVs, when back then most had one, it would be atypical to have more than one.

add big-screen plasma TVs vs. 19-in. B&W, maybe, all teh electornci toys & gadgets, etc.

Ironically maybe people feel the need to buy all these 'things' , to entertain their kids, because they are never at home, out working for the crap they wouldn't need, if they could be at home more? who knows?

I don't know if either of us can 'debate' this intelligently becasue neither of us were around in the 1950's .

But I feel that people "in general" (NOT just 'you') often tend to romanticize, & idealize the past as this wonderful, peaceful, idyllic place. when it was not. And maybe exaggerate some of 'today's' stresses.

It can be natural to feel that 'your' era has more stress, is the toughest in many ways in which to live -you/we have experienced no other

even further back people might think the Middle Ages were idyllic, peaceful, agrarian

plenty of stress back then too, liek gettign enough to eat and live, hoping th eKing or overlords wouldn't drop by & take away your daughter or your wife if she was pretty & struck his fancy, or feel like maybe killing you that day. then the Industrial Age, you'd get to start work full-time (6 or 7 days/week, 12 -14 hours/day) at 10-11 years of age, in a dangerous, dark factory..barely straggle home to fall asleep, eat some gruel & start the routine over again. And parent's only ideas were "Spare the rod, spoil the child".

It's easy to romanticize the past as a 'better' time, remembering the good points & forgetting all the bad ones .Peope often do that with places too, remembering the place of their childhood or youth as idyllic, then moving away; when they go back "home" , years later, they are often sorely disappointed.
 Beyond the Cleavage
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 102
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/7/2010 4:12:20 AM
the past was bullshit. I don't think my life was better when I was living in a nuclear family. I think my daughter's life has been far better because she doesn't have to live with two people who hated each other but didn't have the guts or money to get divorced.
Getting back to the Opost - it's WAYYYY easier to parent alone than co-parent. Mind you, I had an easy time of it as my kids lived close to their father and we all got along so he was around to share a lot of the driving or whatever. But it's good being king of your own castle.
But, to answer your questions:

Parent A does something/says something that you, as Parent B doesn't agree with, do you:

a) Give support to the parent?
b) Give support to the child?
c) Both? If so, how does one do that?

It is an interesting dilemma to find oneself in when one is accustomed to parenting solo. How do parents who have differences in styles actually do it?! By do it, I mean address these differences with their children? When one is married or just living together, I think they handle it differently than those of us who are living separately but I am interested in hearing about both

I used to support her father's decision as he did mine. If I thought he was making the wrong decision, I'd talk to him about it as he did with me but privately, away from the kids.
We have very different parenting styles, but we have one thing in common: we put the kids first. By putting the kids first, you are supporting them whether they think so at the time or not. It's all about putting your ego aside and being able to communicate effectively. It's hard to do at first but it's a matter of reminding yourself.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 103
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/11/2010 7:29:12 AM

the past was bullshit. I don't think my life was better when I was living in a nuclear family. I think my daughter's life has been far better because she doesn't have to live with two people who hated each other but didn't have the guts or money to get divorced.


This doesn't bear out statistically. It's justification for selfish parents to do what is best for them, not their children. Children develop better in a 2 parent household, even if they aren't "happily" married.

My whole point in getting in this thread was to point out that selfish parenting and taking the "easy" way out is exactly what is responsible for the changes we've seen societally, ESPECIALLY in our children.
 Beyond the Cleavage
Joined: 6/5/2010
Msg: 104
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/11/2010 1:29:09 PM

This doesn't bear out statistically.

Excuse me for not fitting into a statistic. I suppose my life experiences didn't happen because they didn't fall into unnamed statistics. What rubbish.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 105
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/11/2010 1:39:02 PM

Children develop better in a 2 parent household, even if they aren't "happily" married.


I would tend to say that this is true in most cases, so long as the relationship between the two parents has not deteriorated beyond a certain point. Of course, all the problem is to determine exactly at which point: not being "happily" married may mean a wide range of behaviour, emotions and dynamics in the family - from mild annoyance and even spouse friendship all the way to major spousal war, name calling and using kids to hurt each other.

The key is that children develop better in a two-parents healthy household than in a one-parent healthy household. When it becomes a traumatic environment, that's another story.


My whole point in getting in this thread was to point out that selfish parenting and taking the "easy" way out...

So, bigpacific - let me make sure I understand you. Are you saying that the parenting methods I am advocating, and to which you oppose so vehemently, are "selfish" and "lazy" parenting? Are you saying that learning to communicate in healthy way, problem solve together, understand your child's problem's root cause, and learn to listen to their deeper emotions and needs is "easy"?

I say that what you observe in today's society is actually caused a lot more because so FEW parents even TRY to listen to their kid's emotions; because the VAST majority of them still use either permissive or authoritarian parenting: by doing so, they show their kids that respecting each other is not important. Permissiveness (which is NOT what I advocate), teaches children that they don't need to even try to understand the others. Authoritarian parenting teaches children that they can't be respected when the other person is stronger or bigger, so they only way to get listened to is to BE the stronger one and forget about understanding and care for other people in weaker positions. Both perpetrate from generation to generation the kind of disrespect and egotistic attitude that we see over and over in today's society.
 jenn8131
Joined: 7/1/2010
Msg: 106
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/11/2010 9:09:03 PM

Children develop better in a 2 parent household, even if they aren't "happily" married.


I used to believe that, then I met my ex's parents. Wow even though his parents are still married they equally damaged their children both parents were guilty of abuse and neglect.

You know there could be many factors that contribute to these distrubing trends that we seem to have with todays youth besides the blaming single parents... even though if you look at history these problems aren't all that foreign. But it could be that parents allow their children to play violent video games and thats why their is a increase in violence among youths.

Having one good parent is better than having 2 sh!t parents that royally mess up their kids.
Sometimes walking away is not taking the easy way out its not being selfish its about self-preservation and surviving. My child has 3 adult figures in her life isn't 3 better than 2.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 107
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/12/2010 7:37:24 PM
I think real life experience adds quite a lot.


I agree sarnia, however the experience is not parenting, it is being a child. Do we really remember how we felt about our parents methods, as a toddler? Do we really remember what it is like to be a toddler? Even if we do, does it stop us from repeating the behaviors of our parents, even if they humiliated, hurt & stunted our growth? There is a great deal to be learned from studies and a great deal to be learned from those who are seemingly impartial. A word to the wise...(and all that)
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 108
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/16/2010 2:13:38 PM
Hi itsallinthesoul, I wrote a lot to post here last night into a notepad, and then hit delete, because mostly it was confrontational stuff aimed at people who mock and criticise something they don't know and confuse it with something it isn't (permissiveness). Eventually I saw how futile that is and went onto another blog instead of to bed which i should have done.

Now I would like to say wow and congrats to the progress you are making with your daughters dad, it is amazing to hear at what level you two are now able to communicate, especially given what it used to be.


I just read an article earlier this afternoon (yes, SFB, there I go beleiving what I read in the media again, lol) in which Mary Kate Olsen was lamenting her oppressive childhood, saying that she felt like a 'performing monkey' and that she would never wish it on anyone. One of the richest young business women in the world, the world is her oyster, and even she harbors such painful memories. People responded with the typical attacks regarding her lack of gratitude for the opportunities her wretched childhood afforded her.... that things could have been a lot worse, and indeed, I suppose they could have.

Of course they could have, as they always can. What this illustrates, is primarily two things:
1) the highest value for those judging her are money, fame and influence
2) the attitude that we should all just suck it up and shut up. I agree wallowing in regret and self-pity is a completely stuck and contraproductive situation, but ironically precisely not allowing your self to feel that you resent something and then let it go, is what keeps you attached to it and stuck with it. It is also what makes people judge Mary Kate Olsen, as they do not allow themselves to say, you know **** it, i resent this, there i said it, now i can move on, they think they are free of such garbage, but precisely this irritation with her shows that they are not, it just became a part of their shadow, because to complain or to feel compassion for oneself was tought to them to be weakness and a sign of being spoilt and they never questioned it and so they don't even know what they REALLY resent. They talk about all the shit they had to go through and how GOOD it was for them. Yes I get it in some way it IS good for you. But not like this, not when you never allow yourself to call it what it really was - SHIT. And then move on.


The key is that children develop better in a two-parents healthy household than in a one-parent healthy household. When it becomes a traumatic environment, that's another story.

I agree, not to mention there are also other models, such as living with extended family, so you have several male and female role models.


Authoritarian parenting teaches children that they can't be respected when the other person is stronger or bigger, so they only way to get listened to is to BE the stronger one and forget about understanding and care for other people in weaker positions. Both perpetrate from generation to generation the kind of disrespect and egotistic attitude that we see over and over in today's society.

Authoritarian also can convey that the child is not trustworthy, is stupid and often more dependent than necessary (particularly in teenagehood), which leads to far worse rebellion than in an approach of gradual increase of the child's independence and responsibility, and message of trust. Often authoritarian approach comes even with belittling, name calling etc.


Do we really remember how we felt about our parents methods, as a toddler? Do we really remember what it is like to be a toddler? Even if we do, does it stop us from repeating the behaviors of our parents, even if they humiliated, hurt & stunted our growth? There is a great deal to be learned from studies and a great deal to be learned from those who are seemingly impartial.

I agree with you there, but would just add, that if you want, you can certainly recall at least some of your childhood experiences and use them too. Empathy is a key too and imagination.
 nicegirl1974
Joined: 7/25/2010
Msg: 109
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/17/2010 11:14:34 PM
i'm just saying i'm not being hard on you ok ....sorry if i sound harsh

1 if he can't control her at the age of 5 what is he going to do when she is 15.....i think he could of controlled it on his own but was more worried about what u were doing ? or if u were home ?....excuses....

2 like at the age of 5 if she was tired time out nap time !! don't call mom deal with it yourself....
3 i do agree though no pool and also again its his weekend or time with her take her somewhere else to swim ........not your place.....seems to make you involved in some way........

what u can do not answer the phone make him deal with her and she will learn i have to listen to my dad cus my mom isn't going to get involved no more....

4 JUST SAYING maybe there is more going on behind closed doors and she can't tell u because u and your ex are so close.....like him being to hard on her,not paying a attention to her,not letting her do nothing......making her act this way....
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 110
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/18/2010 5:47:23 PM
I'm no being hard on you, jackie, either, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but I do think you may have hit on what is, if not in this particular instance, a large part of the problem. It is not our job as parents to control our children, rather to teach them how to control & conduct themselves. Control is at the heart of rebellion, once they become teens. here is ALWAYS more behind closed doors, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
 FunkyMonkee
Joined: 4/7/2009
Msg: 111
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/20/2010 5:40:05 PM

This doesn't bear out statistically. It's justification for selfish parents to do what is best for them, not their children. Children develop better in a 2 parent household, even if they aren't "happily" married.

My whole point in getting in this thread was to point out that selfish parenting and taking the "easy" way out is exactly what is responsible for the changes we've seen societally, ESPECIALLY in our children.


I agree, largely.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 112
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/20/2010 5:48:37 PM
I say that what you observe in today's society is actually caused a lot more because so FEW parents even TRY to listen to their kid's emotions


Hehe, yeah I listen to my brother and his daughter discussing something she did in this manner. It goes on and on and on with her always talking about her "hurt" feelings and not admitting to something she did despite the obvious facts. It's like a 60 minute conversation of both of them saying the same thing over and over and him just getting more frustrated. It almost reminded me of him allowing her a lawyer to state her case. Ridiculous.

His wife just let him go about it and shakes her head. My nephew on the other hand? You could use this approach with him and it would work.

Sorry, but sometimes you just give your child crap and/or a punishment (depends on age) and that is that. You do something unacceptable and explained why it is unacceptable and YOU still argue with me?! There has to be boundaries. I agree with trying to talk things out with children, but some children don't respond to that. Each child is different. Some respond to a serious talk; other belittle that; others need a firmer discipline. It is really hard to state that one way of raising and disciplining a child is the way for all.

I'm lucky in that I have seen both types of households. I was raised in a 2-parent household and rarely saw my parents fighting in a disrespectful way. I feel that they definitely made an effort to ensure that our home was a happy home.

I have a friend who's husband is extremely disrespectful to almost everyone. They have lost friends because of his behaviour and he still believes he is not in the wrong. His children do not spend any time with him and he generally only yells at them.

In that situation, the one-parent situation would be far superior. His children will grow up to not respect him, just like he did not respect his father.

I, however respect my parents today because of who they are and how they treat others.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 113
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/20/2010 11:12:35 PM

Hehe, yeah I listen to my brother and his daughter discussing something she did in this manner. It goes on and on and on with her always talking about her "hurt" feelings and not admitting to something she did despite the obvious facts. It's like a 60 minute conversation of both of them saying the same thing over and over and him just getting more frustrated. It almost reminded me of him allowing her a lawyer to state her case. Ridiculous.


Listening skills do not came "out of the box" to untrained parents. It's amongst the hardest skills to acquire and develop. Right from the start, "listening" isn't going to really happen while the listening person has an agenda on her mind and is trying to get her to "admin what she did" .. that's not listening, that's manipulating! Listening is when the person is truly open to understand. It's hard. It can't be done in any state of mine; and it can't be faked. Plus you need to know HOW to do it, so that you don't block the communication.

So I highly doubt that what I am advocating on these forum has anything to do with what your brother is trying to do with his daughter. I am even surprised these kind of conversation could even last 60 minutes: kids don't have that kind of attention span and getting them to actually talk about their emotions is quite a challenge even to do so for 10 minutes in a row.


You do something unacceptable and explained why it is unacceptable and YOU still argue with me?!

Sure does. Who says YOU should always be right? Can't you conceive a world in which the parent may make a mistake? Or, more importantly, a world in which the parent may be right, but the child still feels HE was right, too? He is a full person, he deserves to be heard, even when he is wrong. Because his FEELINGS are never wrong. And he needs to make sens of them.


There has to be boundaries.

Of course. But what does boundaries have to do with listening to your kid's emotions?


I agree with trying to talk things out with children, but some children don't respond to that.

EVERY single child responds to *communication*. Remember: communication with their parent is the life's line, a matter of life and death to a child. But communication takes many forms. Children who don't respond to a parent trying to "talk things out" usually happens to have weak attachment to the parent. To listen, they first need to be listened, touched, connected with. Don't look for what's wrong with the child. Look for the source in the parent's dynamic.


Each child is different.

Every child is also a human being who goes through the same cognitive development, the same life-span developmental stages, who will develop the same kind of coping mechanisms and the same kind of attachment patterns to the same kind of parenting practices and to the same kind of traumas.
Truly, there is a lot more common in every children than there are differences.
What doesn't really work well for a child will not work well for ANY child. What really works well for a child will work well for every child.

If it "works well" for a child and "does not work" for another, it actually means it's not working at all for any child; only, one child is managing and coping better that the other.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 114
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/21/2010 6:25:59 AM
Some good points here, but tell me - how much time have you really spent with children? Have you lived with children? Worked with children?

All the stats and research can mean nothing when faced with the real world.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 115
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/21/2010 7:35:43 AM

Some good points here, but tell me - how much time have you really spent with children?
A few years

Have you lived with children?
Yes

Worked with children?
Yes

More importantly, What I am advocating here in these forums comes from the work of people who spent their lifetime working with children and their parents, an d from studies and research that included thousands and thousands of parents and children in real world situations. That's how research work: it's not "theoretical", it's applied knowledge observed and deduced from real life situations.
 Amberlightrose
Joined: 1/29/2009
Msg: 116
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/23/2010 10:40:17 PM

Listening skills do not came "out of the box" to untrained parents. It's amongst the hardest skills to acquire and develop. Right from the start, "listening" isn't going to really happen while the listening person has an agenda on her mind and is trying to get her to "admin what she did" .. that's not listening, that's manipulating! Listening is when the person is truly open to understand. It's hard. It can't be done in any state of mine; and it can't be faked. Plus you need to know HOW to do it, so that you don't block the communication.


Have to agree with you there Csoul.

And I don't think that it just applies to adults 'listening' to children either!
I think many of us have felt frustration when trying to explain our feelings to someone significant in our lives and being told our feelings are simply irrational and we have 'no right' to feel that way!
In that kind of environment, especially if it's a frequent occurence, people simply give up trying to communicate at all.
What is the point if that person is never going to even TRY to understand?

It must be even more frustrating for children because they have the disadvantage of being smaller and weaker than us.
If adults can feel like they are not being listened to or understood, how much harder is it for a child?

I think we can never know how good we were as parents UNTIL our children have all grown up.
And as much as we try to be 'good' parents, it can be very confronting to be told by your adult children that there WERE times when you didn't listen or seem to be trying to understand.
There WERE times when your kids felt you didn't really care about them that much.
Which was never true, I always cared.
But if they felt that way; it was the way they felt at that moment. And if they FELT like that, then at that time I was BEHAVING in a manner which made them feel that way.

You hear all that stuff about needing to be 'trained' in all aspects of our employment, but with the most important thing; raising future generations we get little 'training' at all.
Many of us have no idea about child development and how children might think and react at a certain age.
And all the bad stuff from our own child-hood can travel with us. In moments of stress we can forget to be rational and resort to the type of parenting we ourselves had as children. Which in my case was not all that great!

I still have a 14 year old and I am learning all the time.
The thing is about life is that none of us are perfect and we shouldn't ever stop learning. We can always learn to do things a better way.

Not everyone feels that way which is sad, because they could be missing out on a more peaceful, happier life.
Let face it, even on our deathbed we are still learning.
We are learning the last thing we will ever learn.
How to die.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 117
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/24/2010 10:41:51 AM

The key is that children develop better in a two-parents healthy household than in a one-parent healthy household. When it becomes a traumatic environment, that's another story.


The problem is, the parents that i've seen get divorced will call a home unhealthy because they aren't happy, NOT because it's unhealthy for the kids. People remember watching mom and dad fight and use that emotion to justify selfish behaviour. They don't think of kids first anymore.


So, bigpacific - let me make sure I understand you. Are you saying that the parenting methods I am advocating, and to which you oppose so vehemently, are "selfish" and "lazy" parenting? Are you saying that learning to communicate in healthy way, problem solve together, understand your child's problem's root cause, and learn to listen to their deeper emotions and needs is "easy"?


No. I did in reading your original posts, as we have discussed it further i have changed my opinion. I do question the ability of parents to distinguish between the difference in your parenting program from letting their children run wild however. While you have years of training and experience and can hold true to training, I have fears that they will take the "listening" and forget to enforce boundaries, misinterpreting your message.....As i did.


Sure does. Who says YOU should always be right? Can't you conceive a world in which the parent may make a mistake? Or, more importantly, a world in which the parent may be right, but the child still feels HE was right, too? He is a full person, he deserves to be heard, even when he is wrong. Because his FEELINGS are never wrong. And he needs to make sens of them.


This is what i mean. Parents don't always have to be right, but they DO always have to be in control. I have concerns that parents will have the ability to distinguish between the two.

Still though, this question still lays unanswered: Children were better behaved in the 50's, with a traditional parenting model of authoritative rearing, children are now worse, and we have been moving AWAY from the traditional authoritative parent, how much is correlation and how much is causation?
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 118
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/24/2010 3:02:58 PM

The problem is, the parents that I've seen get divorced will call a home unhealthy because they aren't happy, NOT because it's unhealthy for the kids. People remember watching mom and dad fight and use that emotion to justify selfish behaviour. They don't think of kids first anymore.

Yeah, I think this is unfortunately often true. Drawing the line between what's being unhappy for the parent and what's unhealthy for the child is difficult: it can be a very fine line. I think what makes this line so delicate to balance is that children communicate first and fare most through non-verbal. On a subconscious level, they get it really quickly when something is wrong in the family, no matter how hard parents who no longer love each other "try" to be happy for their child. So to draw that line is difficult: you can stay for your child even when you are unhappy, but how long? Until what point? How hard should you try to "make it work" for the children - and when is it the right time to let go? I wish I had the answers to these, but I think it's near impossible to determine.


I did in reading your original posts, as we have discussed it further i have changed my opinion.
Thank you for telling me, it's rare to see this on forums. *respect*


I do question the ability of parents to distinguish between the difference in your parenting program from letting their children run wild however. While you have years of training and experience and can hold true to training, I have fears that they will take the "listening" and forget to enforce boundaries, misinterpreting your message.....As i did.

Yes, this is VERY true. I have been educating, explaining, writing for two years on this very subject on this forum, and I have successfully helped many people who specifically asked for help. But I found it extremely difficult to convey how different what I am advocating is from the permissive approach to the other people - the readers who didin't ask for help. It's like a paradigm, perhaps even a cultural paradigm: they seem to automatically assume that if you don't win in a relationship, you have to lose. They seem to often be stuck between control and no-control, as if these were the only possible choices.

And you are perfectly right: you CANNOT afford to lose control and forget your boundaries, because that would also be detrimental to child's growth and development.


Still though, this question still lays unanswered: Children were better behaved in the 50's, with a traditional parenting model of authoritative rearing, children are now worse, and we have been moving AWAY from the traditional authoritative parent, how much is correlation and how much is causation?

If I may ask, I am curious to know: how do you determine that children are truly worst today? Or are we simply hearing more about it today, because of how connected we are through mass medias?
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 119
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/24/2010 6:14:08 PM
I am curious to know why you think it's a traditional model of authoritative rearing & not the "family time", community involvement & general environment that made children of yesteryear "better"? Personally, I see that many parents are less effective simply because they are less involved, more selfish, less willing to actively parent, period, not simple less authoritative.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 120
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/24/2010 7:51:49 PM
^^^^^^ authoritarian, ohwhynot :-) Authoritative is a different parenting style, and a much better one too.
Here is an article I posted on my parenting portal about parenting style:
http://parentastic.org/parenting/parenting-styles/
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 121
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 7:19:46 AM

I am curious to know why you think it's a traditional model of authoritative rearing & not the "family time", community involvement & general environment that made children of yesteryear "better"? Personally, I see that many parents are less effective simply because they are less involved, more selfish, less willing to actively parent, period, not simple less authoritative.


Mostly because "family time" didn't really exist in the era i'm speaking of. I just used the 50's as a general reference point. The "greatest generation" (people that survived the depression and ww2) were raised by factory workers in horrible conditions working 6 days a week. The parenting style then was FAR more authoritarian, often parents beating their children. I don't advocate that of course, but i'm not speaking of the june cleaver parenting, although that also was more authoritarian than nowadays. These children were given responsibility at a very early age, often working out of necessity, they had the HARDEST lifestyles and yet were some of the most well mannered children.

And soul, when i look at children being worse now, i look at the following COMPLETELY subjective measuring sticks.

Suicide rates
responsibility
maturity
divorce rates
youth criminality stats
drug use
gang violence
etc.
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 122
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 10:32:49 AM
big pacific, I would personally not place the highest value on my children being well mannered, when thinking of my parenting goals. My values would be that they would grow up to be balanced, well developed, all rounded individuals who can take care of themselves. Nothing wrong with good manners per se, as long as you don't put them above your personal integrity.

Also lets look at your list of problems you are complaining about:

Suicide - that tends to happen most in children who are desperate, without anyone to turn to, often abused and or bullied

Lack of responsibility is most often observed in children for whom the parents do too much and or smother them, which can happen both in authoritarian (when appropriate freedoms and responsibilities are not developed when the child is ready for it) or in permissive parenting of parents who are without spine (the parent lets the child dictate what is none of the childs business). Often these two approaches are combined within one family and such children tend to be a little lost in the world, not knowing what, letting their parents run their lives etc. and at the same time often being very disrespectful to their parents (i mean when well into adulthood)

Maturity - I understand that the same way as responsibility, beware though of false maturity, where a child is for example so called parentised (which VERY often happened to those born in 50s - like 6 year old girl has to be a mummy to her siblings as the mother is too busy to do it etc, but by far not limited to, it happens now too) - where a child way too young is forced to be like an adult, and will often never stop resenting it in their life and stay bitter (although this is individual, i am not saying some don't get over it, but it does take therapy, self help, self awareness etc)

Divorce rates - divorces can have so many causes that i don't think i can capture an essence of it here well. But most relevantly, it is not something that is limited to the young, It is very very common in people who were born in 50s and raised in authoritarian style.

Youth criminality stats - again these are children who are unsupported, often beaten up etc, looking for a substitute family in a gang of unsuitable friends, in between whom they feel more understood, able to be "grown up" etc than in their family

drug use - similar as with suicide and crime

gang violence dtto

Now - how is this an argument for NOT using the methods discussed here, when those address these problems, as opposed to authoritarian and permissive styles?
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 123
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 10:56:46 AM

Yeah, I think this is unfortunately often true. Drawing the line between what's being unhappy for the parent and what's unhealthy for the child is difficult: it can be a very fine line. I think what makes this line so delicate to balance is that children communicate first and fare most through non-verbal. On a subconscious level, they get it really quickly when something is wrong in the family, no matter how hard parents who no longer love each other "try" to be happy for their child. So to draw that line is difficult: you can stay for your child even when you are unhappy, but how long? Until what point? How hard should you try to "make it work" for the children - and when is it the right time to let go? I wish I had the answers to these, but I think it's near impossible to determine.

The thing is there are far too many scenarios to consider. For instance in cases where the mother is being beaten up and children abused, i think its a no brainer. Often such women DO stay and use this "i am doing it for the children" as an excuse for staying, when the right thing for everyone is to leave. At the end of the day, we don't know 100% what is happening in someone elses family (or unfortunately in our own, which is far more of a problem), so we cannot really generalise too much and stay objective at the same time.

I do question the ability of parents to distinguish between the difference in your parenting program from letting their children run wild however. While you have years of training and experience and can hold true to training, I have fears that they will take the "listening" and forget to enforce boundaries, misinterpreting your message.....As i did.

Yeah, i think this is true as well, but those who are genuinely interested, can find ample sources to find out more. And if they were converted, like you, I and many others, they got the difference already in the process of conversion.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 124
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 8:11:06 PM

^^^^^^ authoritarian, ohwhynot :-) Authoritative is a different parenting style, and a much better one too.
Here is an article I posted on my parenting portal about parenting style:
http://parentastic.org/parenting/parenting-styles/


Thanks for the clarification, cs, but I was addressing bigpacific's post. While I agree that authoritative parents are more effective, I was trying to bring up the fact that there are extenuating factors that aid children in overcoming even poor parenting methods (like a sense of community, valuing family) ; it's not all about the method.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 125
view profile
History
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 8:28:22 PM
^^^^ I was simply referring to Authoritarian rather than Authoritative because you were quoting bigpacific about the "traditional model of authoritative rearing", and I think that the traditional model that bigpacific was referring to was the authoritarian model.

But, this is very true - it's not only about the method, there are a LOT of new or changing factors that ties in to the community and the society as a whole. Thank you for mentioning this, ohwhynot46!
Show ALL Forums  > Single Parents  > Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent