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| | Indian Men with American WomenPage 2 of 4 (1, 2, 3, 4) | Okay,,,,not being a smartbum here,,,but if you were ACTUALLY learning about India and their culture(s) for the last 2 years,,,,,you would NOT be here at all asking ANY questions about anything. You would already know. You would also know if you and your "Indian" buddy were actually close at all,,,,cause he would of "informed" you of certain things,,,,,including if his family was "old school" or if they were adapting to North American ways. Orrrrrrr,,,,,he was trying to keep it from ya?????
I honestly don't know,,,but I have quite a few East Indian acquaintances. Some are great people. Some are complete morons. And nothing racist about that. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/10/2010 5:53:11 PM |
He will not say if all families are like this. All families, of a certain generation, are like this. Not PC but, they are.
This isn't even an issue of political correctness or the lack thereof, it suffices for me to say that your statement is simply and obviously false--a single counter-example is all it takes, and I happen to know of and have encountered several--I'm well aware that my claim doesn't meet the standard expected of a persuasive proof, but no claim or unverifiable statement of alleged fact made in a forum ever will.
In fact, like most stereotypes in general, nothing you stated in your first paragraph merits serious consideration in specific instances--it's only useful as a descriptor of the nature of the dominant aspects and influences of the culture--it's merely a descriptor of the "average" family from the subcontinent, if you will.
So stop focussing [sic] on the families and start focussing on the person you're interested. It's tough but you may be able to find the rare few that can make their own decisions. This, on the other hand, is much better, it's definitely the sort of advice the OP can use.
For what it's worth, OP, I was born in India and lived and grew up in the culture for the first 15 years of my life, and have lived in the west for the remaining 13--11 of which have been spent here in the US. I have close ties with my family, but I don't live my life according to the dictates of others, not even that of my parents. I have never been much of a stickler for so-called "hallowed" and "time-honoured" traditions--be they the ones originating from my culture, or the ones espoused by the west or any other part of the world, for that matter. I believe in charting my own course based on my personal sense of ethics and morality, and on the secular principles enshrined in the Indian, the US and the EU constitutions, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I'd love to have children some day, but I think marriage is a deeply flawed institution--regardless of whether we're talking about it in a sociocultural or legal sense--so I'd much rather work out a living arrangement with my partner that is suitable and acceptable for the both of us instead of bowing to social expectations or mores, or allowing the state to dictate our private affairs.
Each person is unique, so you'd be well advised to ensure that you have really good communication with the guy you're interested in, and try to learn as much as you can about his personal views and beliefs, and how much of a say his family members have in his life choices.
The broader question you raised about Indian culture in general is a distinct issue that you can investigate on your own. You'll find out very quickly--if you haven't done so already--that the subcontinent is home to a bewildering multitude of cultures and subcultures, religious, artistic, philosophical and linguistic traditions, and parochial intricacies, quirks and idiosyncrasies are rife everywhere you go. Although most communities and societies in the subcontinent are, generally speaking, more socially and culturally conservative than the west, they're ultimately the very antithesis of a monolithic culture, assuming such a thing even exists. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/10/2010 6:30:32 PM | The question seems to be how common are arranged marriages in India. From what I've read, it's very common. I've seen a couple sources that say 90-95% of Indian marriages are arranged. So it seems your chances of finding an Indian, who retains his routes and culture in India and who would be allowed to marry you, is kind of slim. You can always buy your way in. 15 years salary usually does it. But failing to provide a sufficient dowry is also not good for your health. The older generations are becoming more insistant upon arranged marriages, not less. They've seen, over the last decade, the results of allowing non arranged marriages. I don't really see that changing. It's lovely to find the perfect, sweet man who will love you etc etc. But there are serious consequences to breaking arranged marriage traditions. Just be aware. That's all.
err, I find this comment (referring to 'racism' ) HYSTERICAL when really the very TITLE of your thread is racist..
What are you talking about? It's not at all racist. She's not implying in any way that all American women have blonde hair or any other trait for that matter. She's implying that an Indian and an American might have some differences in cultural attitude, especially as it turns out, towards marriage. You're just picking a fight. Japanese/Chinese/African Americans are all equally qualified to call themselves American, as are Mexicans, Canadians, Peruvians etc etc. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/10/2010 7:01:59 PM |
Is it possible for the two cultures to combine?...Is this a crazy thought I'm having or is it possible to be accepted? If I have false hope, then I will need to move on from this idea. Look Curvy Princess, it takes two independent-minded and thinking people of different cultures to enter a substantial meaningful interpersonal relationship. If this Indian dude isn't able to tell his family to buzz off and get involved with someone of a different culture like yourself, then honestly why would you want to be involved with a dude like this? He does you a favor by indicating he can't get involved with you--allowing you to seek out other independent-minded guys more similar to your mindset.
I see no reason why an Indian man cannot be involved with a typical American woman. Just like a white and black cannot be involved--Christian and Jew, Asian and black, etcetera. Anything is possible with two people with positive-thinking and open mindsets.
Good luck Curvy Princess!  | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 12:18:47 AM |
What are you talking about? It's not at all racist.
Concurred, I see no racism here. The OP is asking about culture differences, which is quite another matter. And I think happy-go-lucky gave some excellent information and advice on the subject, partly due to his personal experience, and partly because he is just very, very smart. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 2:53:40 AM |
it suffices for me to say that your statement is simply and obviously false
There is nothing false about the statement at all and your objection to it seems to be that you dislike that aspect of Eastern culture so wish it gone. People raised in that culture see that as the norm and they will abide by it. Nothing you have written debunks my statements.
a single counter-example is all it takes, and I happen to know of and have encountered several
Are you suggesting, you have encountered several Indian/Pakistani/Asian parents, who were born in the East, who told their offspring that they may marry whomever they wish and they will not get involved to any extent? I find that very hard to believe. Parents, born in the East, will actively get involved in the romantic liaisons of their children for the simple reason that they consider it not only culturally acceptable but an obligation.
You are right about one thing, however, and that is anyone can bolster their arguments, on a forum, with the tried and tested "I know of" line, so here's mine. All the time I was growing up, in an impossibly large extended family, I was repeatedly told, by many sets of parents that, in our culture it is the parents obligation to ensure their children marry well. This is sometimes twisted to mean they must make the decision for you but, nonetheless, they will get involved. They consider it their duty and they are failing their children if they wash their hands of their romantic intent.
The extent to which they get involved varies greatly and, as I wrote in my original post, my parents eventually accepted my intention to marry by my own choice. I write, eventually, because there was opposition to it at first.
As I said to the OP, it is a futile to direct her enquiries at the parents and, instead, concentrate on the individuals she is interested in meeting and how inclined they are to break away from cultural norms.
Furthermore, please do not use [sic] when quoting me. I used an accepted spelling of the word. I appreciate Americans have a penchant for dropping letters out of words but I'll continue to use the Queen's English. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 7:13:41 AM | OP,
In college I dated a Sikh woman who was born and raised in Punjab.
Sikhs tend to be a little more open minded than Hindus, like not as tied to the caste system and arranged marriages.
However, her parents still objected as they wanted her to marry another Sikh and either move back to Punjab or live in a Sikh community in North America (Toronto has a sizable community, for example) where she could worship among her peers.
All in all, they weren't out to block the relationship, but they pressured her and she ultimately gave in. As your friend from India wrote to you, she hid behind family pressures.
I don't regret the relationship and I think Indian women are beautiful (I traveled there for work some years after her and I broke it off and also loved the food and culture). But if I were ever to start a relationship with another one, these things would have to be discussed early so I'd at least know what to expect. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 9:56:01 AM | | Thank you Stray Cat for the information! He is Hindu and from the Brahmins cast system. He should have known from the beginning that this would not work out. If I do pursue a relationship with someone from another culture, I will be asking more questions from the beginning. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 10:37:14 AM | OP - I have spent many years in India and have seen many relationships between various diffrent races and Indian people.
Somewhere on this thread someone mentioned the vast differences between the cultures in India - which will be a major factor in what you will have to adjust to.
If you are looking to meet an Indian man that lives in the States and is an American citizen - the culture differences will still be there - but Im assuming it would be easier than trying to live in a country where religion, family and social caste is of great importance .
This is a generalisation but the people I know in India that have married outside of their race and familys approval have a very hard time getting the community to accept them - and generally live as outsiders - sad but true!
There are so many things to consider like maybe being willing to convert to another faith.
I love India and have found that Indian people are some of the most friendly people I have ever met!
Good luck! | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 10:44:25 AM |
And I think happy-go-lucky gave some excellent information and advice on the subject, partly due to his personal experience, and partly because he is just very, very smart. Aw shucks ma'am, you're too kind. :">
@ Reaper!:
There is nothing false about the statement at all
This was your original statement (I'm formatting your post and emphasising a particular word because I'm making a point):
All families, of a certain generation, are like this. That's a statement about all families of a certain generation, and it makes no exceptions--I don't know if that's what you actually meant, but that is in fact what you said. One counter-example is all that is required to refute a blanket statement like that, so it should be quite apparent that even without an actual example, it can be concluded that the statement is almost certainly false; there have got to be exceptions--we're talking about people here, not automatons.
and your objection to it seems to be that you dislike that aspect of Eastern culture so wish it gone. Irrelevant; my personal opinion on the matter is not what's at issue here.
People raised in that culture see that as the norm and they will abide by it. Many people, perhaps even most people, but certainly not all people.
You are right about one thing, however, and that is anyone can bolster their arguments, on a forum, with the tried and tested "I know of" line, so here's mine. Your example that follows doesn't carry anywhere near as much weight as the ones I was alluding to because yours is a single instance that you're trying to use to support your thesis, which is a blanket statement about all families of a certain type. My statement, on the other hand, was referring to examples that refute your claim--all it takes to refute a claim that begins with "All..." is to point out that counter-examples do in fact exist, and to perhaps mention one for good measure. Think about it. You might respond by saying that I'm merely being pedantic, but it's a whole lot more than that--logic matters.
Are you suggesting, you have encountered several Indian/Pakistani/Asian parents, who were born in the East, who told their offspring that they may marry whomever they wish and they will not get involved to any extent? I find that very hard to believe. I find that very hard to believe myself, because not only is it the case that such families don't exist in the east, but they also don't exist in the west, or perhaps anywhere else. It all depends on what exactly you mean by "to any extent" now, doesn't it? Classic straw-man argument, and I don't think this is what we were discussing at all. If I recall correctly, the central question was somewhat along the lines of, "Just how much of an influence do families and traditions have on individuals from India, and how likely are they to bow to external pressures--especially from family members--and allow them to sway their individual decision on the choice of a mate?"
By couching your question / argument the way you did, you highlighted one of the main problems with discussions of this nature--people often seem to forget that families (and even friends) do in fact hold a lot of sway over some individuals' actions and choices, even here in the west. It's quite common for people to ask themselves, "Is this someone I can bring home and introduce to my family? Will they approve of him/her?" If the answer is an emphatic "No," then some people are liable to break things off with the SO rather than risk burning bridges and close ties with family. Ethnocentrism, xenophobia, racism and "it's best if people stick to their own kind" type of attitudes aren't specific to any particular region or culture--one encounters such attitudes everywhere.
Anyhow, to further underscore my point, several of my Indian friends are in inter-ethnic marriages, and their families didn't seem to have any problems with that; many came here from India--often their very first time having travelled overseas--so that they could be at the wedding. Was there some (melo-)drama initially? Perhaps, but why should that matter when all is said and done? Incidentally, all of them happen to be Indian men who married women from other cultures; it does generally seem to be a lot harder for an Indian woman to do the same, but that's an entirely separate issue.
As I said to the OP, it is a futile to direct her enquiries at the parents and, instead, concentrate on the individuals she is interested in meeting and how inclined they are to break away from cultural norms. I definitely agree with you on this; I was only objecting to your blanket statement about all Indian families being a certain way.
Furthermore, please do not use [sic] when quoting me. I used an accepted spelling of the word. I appreciate Americans have a penchant for dropping letters out of words but I'll continue to use the Queen's English. My sincere apologies, I did check the Cambridge online dictionary before posting, and it didn't have an entry for "focussing." I should've checked the OED, but I don't use it often because it's not free. Also, in my defence, that spelling is relatively rare these days even in the UK.  | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 12:54:38 PM |
I definitely agree with you on this; I was only objecting to your blanket statement about all Indian families being a certain way.
Happy, I have come to the conclusion that you rely on overly verbose posts in the hopes that the sea of words will convince readers you are correct. I won't respond in kind as I have no need to write an essay to point out a very simple fact.
As learned as you appear, you seem to keep missing the words "of a certain generation" from the statement that contained the word "all." There are generations of Eastern culture who are not in the least bit diluted with Western culture and, to them, being involved in their children's relationships to a large degree, is the cultural norm and an obligation.
Successive generations may have this cultural norm diluted and those are not the ones I was talking about when I wrote "all families, of a certain generation, are like this." To put it in very plain English, because you appear to be having problems with this, that is the qualifier. I can only imagine you saw the word "all" and were left with something akin to snow blindness thereafter. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 1:25:55 PM | ^ Oh for goodness sake, give it up. ^^
It's just not possible that "ALL" of the people of any generation of any country would be a certain way.
(unless maybe back when there were only a handful of people populating the world, and even then I'd bet there would be at least one person going against the grain)
Possibly a certain region, maybe a particular group, maybe even 95% of India...
but not "all Indian families", which transtlates to "all the families in the country of India" during certain generations. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 2:27:13 PM | | Good luck in getting his family to like you if they decided against you to begin with. His family will try very strongly to tear you apart and unless he isn't much of a family person(deep respect for family) I doubt it will work out. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/11/2010 3:53:48 PM | Get on a plane and fly to India.
You'll learn more about "Indian culture" in 24 hours than you will learn in a book.
Go to a rural village in central India. there will be plenty of Indian men and their families happy for you to get hitched. You might have to grab a 12 year old though and wait for him to grow up !
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/12/2010 7:15:19 PM |
He is Hindu and from the Brahmins cast system.
I just read the whole thread. A few idiots but not too bad. The caste system lives in undertones. Having worked there over 18 months I can say that it is an interesting and richly vibrant. All cultures, if you willing to be honest with yourself and look are formed with hereditary and/or genealogical trace lines. I had hidden relationships with two women there and one that was in the open. I find India mild. The politically correct crowd are too ignorant to really see that the dynamics of a group in play.
What is overlooked is that societies and cultures have survived and flourished with certain caste systems. This really isn't about right or wrong. When a family looks on an outsider they will still consciously and maybe even biologically sort and select based on the mores of their group. This is called group survival. Its like putting 20 socially skilled white people and 20 socially skilled black people in the same room and there will still be a separation. This is NOT racism. This is generations upon generations of successful survival in action. It is biological instinct.
His family may never stop being a problem or you could be readily accepted after a period of time.
Here is an example of a friend of mine who married a very nice philipino girl years ago. Because he was considered rich, he was like a godfather. If anyone got into financial trouble or needed something important they would go to him. He would get letters in the states from her family. He honored most of the requests because he understood the culture. Thus his wife continued to respect and honor him. They are still married. What are you willing to take on? | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/12/2010 8:51:20 PM |
What is overlooked is that societies and cultures have survived and flourished with certain caste systems. This really isn't about right or wrong. When a family looks on an outsider they will still consciously and maybe even biologically sort and select based on the mores of their group. This is called group survival. Its like putting 20 socially skilled white people and 20 socially skilled black people in the same room and there will still be a separation. This is NOT racism. This is generations upon generations of successful survival in action. It is biological instinct.
That's completely wrong. Suggesting 20 white people and 20 "equally skilled" black people in a room would naturally segregate themselves isn't even a logical comparison to the Indian Caste system. The system isn't about being equally skilled. It's the exact opposite. It's completely discriminatory to the 250 million people living outside the system working as slaves for caste members. It's like the oldest form of racism. Biological instinct? Where did you hear this? Not racism? Help me Vishnu. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/13/2010 9:16:54 AM |
What is overlooked is that societies and cultures have survived and flourished with certain caste systems. This really isn't about right or wrong. When a family looks on an outsider they will still consciously and maybe even biologically sort and select based on the mores of their group. This is called group survival. Its like putting 20 socially skilled white people and 20 socially skilled black people in the same room and there will still be a separation. This is NOT racism. This is generations upon generations of successful survival in action. It is biological instinct.
That's completely wrong. Suggesting 20 white people and 20 "equally skilled" black people in a room would naturally segregate themselves isn't even a logical comparison to the Indian Caste system. The system isn't about being equally skilled. It's the exact opposite. It's completely discriminatory to the 250 million people living outside the system working as slaves for caste members. It's like the oldest form of racism. Biological instinct? Where did you hear this? Not racism? Help me Vishnu.
like any hereditary system, it sucks. like Royal Families..because of genes a person is 'better', "superior" to another? and others are "inferior" ???
Prince Charles is REALLY my superior?? PUH-LEEZE. that big-eared oaf, who gave up Princess Di for Horse-Face?
take Chuckie away from all his slaves (oops, meant servants) and where would he be?
not sure if all are the same, I'm sure not! - but I had an Indian co-worker, I went to his house (in Canada) and was quite uncomfortable as he would only talk with me, and ignored his wife totally, she would say things & I would try to include her in the convo.
He acted as if she should be "seen & not heard"
was he just a unique sexist b*stard or do quite a few Indian guys tend to be that way? Inquiring minds want to know.. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/13/2010 9:55:29 PM | I believe that as a Nation we are moving towards finding the politically correctness where it comes to different races and cultures. We live in a melting pot of many different belief systems. It is a fairly new concept considering our history.
Going over to another country such as the Middle East, we find the people live their lives according toviews that are intregrated into their Religious belief being first, and it includes their social life. They have fought hard not to be influenced by Western society yet as the younger generation travels abroad for schooling they cannot help but bring some of those ideas with them. Traditional families send their children for the most part expecting them to come back, let the world fall behind and settle back into what they have lived their whole life.
I believe for son's traveling it is expected that they will taste the flavors of the world and then leave it behind. Sometimes the newfound freedom allows for them to act now and pray later.
I truly believe that for there to truly be a huge change in how cultures such as this accept outside influence will take many generations. I do believe that the young will see to these changes eventually.
PS We wonder why they don't want us over there to liberate the people, and they resist the change they feel is being forced on them... they do not want to live a society such as ours... | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/14/2010 5:58:33 AM |
Suggesting 20 white people and 20 "equally skilled" black people in a room would naturally segregate themselves isn't even a logical comparison to the Indian Caste system.
I dissagree. When you get to africa one day and pay attention you will see tribal segregation and old hunting ground status.
Chaste is status. Amongst any culture, even in your own town you will see status seperation. Status is really about survival potentials.
Like the very next poster right after you. Parlimentary status. The chaste system is just another word for status seperation. This is a fundamental understanding that is anthropoligical in its existence.
Is it right by present day philosophy? No...obviously not. We would not even be here nor would our species of survived. Right here on this site you see status assumptions and preferences. Be real. When a man or a woman on here says "I'm picky" what the heck do you think that means? "Oh, I will take anyone whos nice to me?" | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/14/2010 6:00:50 AM |
believe that as a Nation we are moving towards finding the politically correctness where it comes to different races and cultures. We live in a melting pot of many different belief systems. It is a fairly new concept considering our history.
I agree pixy. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/14/2010 6:43:01 AM |
I dissagree. When you get to africa one day and pay attention you will see tribal segregation and old hunting ground status.
Right. And in Africa you get Hutu's killing Tutsi's by the hundreds of thousands based on ethnicity, not tribal segregation and hunting ground status. Their caste system didn't work so well. Just because Africans are mostly black, doesn't mean they're all the same ethnicity or race. The separation you're describing is more often than not based in ethnic differences.
Chaste is status. Amongst any culture, even in your own town you will see status seperation. Status is really about survival potentials.
First of all, American upper, middle and lower class has no base in ethnicity. There are no rules or laws preventing anyone from doing anything based on class. There are no "untouchables" in my hometown or yours. Caste is status that has been based on race since the beginning of Hinduism.
Hints of the caste system can be seen in the Rig Veda written in the late second millennium B.C.E. It was clearly in place by the time of the later Vedic texts (c. 1000–500 B.C.E.). These Sanskrit texts are generally seen as products of an Aryan migration or invasion, and they teach a sacrificial religious system known as Brahmanism or Vedism, which would in later centuries develop into Hinduism. Deeply concerned with issues of purity and pollution, the Vedic texts divided people into different groupings called varnas ("colors") at the top of which was a priestly caste called to set themselves apart from the others. ----Racial identities were fundamental to the development and continuation of this system.
Read more: Race and Racism in Asia - Race And Racism In India - Aryan, Caste, System, Texts, Indian, and Vedic http://science.jrank.org/pages/10957/Race-Racism-in-Asia-Race-Racism-in-India.html#ixzz0waQVhYg4
When a man or a woman on here says "I'm picky" what the heck do you think that means?"
Creeps me out too, but that's is a totally different thing. Is the OP being racist because she likes Indians? Of course not. When she starts killing, segregating, enslaving and degrading other races to promote her Indocentric beliefs, then yeah. You could say that she's being a tad racist. But wherever you're getting the notion that the caste system is not racist is honestly very wrong. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/14/2010 6:53:09 AM |
There are no rules or laws preventing anyone from doing anything based on class. There are no "untouchables" in my hometown or yours. Caste is status that has been based on race since the beginning of Hinduism.
You dream. It's inherant in ANY culture. No written "laws"...true. Are you confusing your idiology with reality? Or are you hung up on just the chaste system?
We will probably not find any agreement so lets move on. | |
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/14/2010 11:36:30 AM | Any member of an old culture who is willing to get involved seriously with a person outside of that culture is *already* atypical. HOW atypical, only time will prove.
In college, I had a boatload of middle easterners interested in me. (Primarily Indians, but a good scattering of Pakistanis, Iranians, and Iraqis.) Mostly, however, because of their mistaken belief that American women "put out" versus the ladies they were expecting to marry. These were, however, foreign students who were intending to go home after getting their degrees. I would think there might be some difference if they had already immigrated or their families had. The higher the caste, the richer the family, the less likely the offspring is to defy the parental units and pauperize themselves, even on behalf of a blonde zaftig love interest.
The catch is that if you love a culture, getting involved with its least typical specimens is not likely to be satisfying, long term.
I lived and taught in China and married the only son of a Chinese family. No, he was not typical, and to a degree they were not (and were treated very shabbily by friends, neighbors and coworkers because they allowed it). But long term, it made a difference when he was torn between doing what his family wished, versus doing what *we* wished. Marriage failed at the 12 year point, more due to cultural differences than any single other reason.
Members of mixed cultures, like North American ones, simply see others' ways of doing things as different from their own. Members of unmixed, old cultures tend to believe that different is WRONG. . . .
A Suitable Boy, a novel by Vikram Seth, is worth reading if you are truly interested in marrying into Indian culture.
Good luck, Luv, you're gonna need it.
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| Indian Men with American Women
Posted: 8/14/2010 4:03:45 PM |
You dream. It's inherant in ANY culture. No written "laws"...true. Are you confusing your idiology with reality?
You're totally missing the point. Until 1950 India had written laws discriminating against lower castes and untouchables. There were different sentences for people in different castes who committed the same crime. The "inherant" segregation you think happens in all cultures is nothing at all like the reality in India.
Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes.
That's f'ed up. The more I read about this the more I'd be running far and fast from any traditional Indian familial relationship. | |
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