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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 4:18:33 AM |
Uncircumsized is uncivilized. It separates us from the animals. We do not live in a third world society. Quite simply, it is dirtier...because it has a membrane that traps moisture.
The most horrifying thing I have ever seen was a clip of a female "circumcision". An old lady tied a 5 year old girls legs to a chair and proceeded to cut out her clitoris with a razor blade. You tell me if that's civilized or not. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 4:19:39 AM | oh yeah, and it's just a little piece of skin; wash it for crying out loud!  | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 4:27:30 AM | | ummm..yeah...a labia traps moisture, and it sweats, and gets as you say* dirty* but ummm..the thing is....that is what a wash cloth and good old fashioned soap and water is for. I don't want anyone with swamp a** going near my mouth. But I will tell you this...not once in my post did I say you were wrong yet you seem to want to make everyone else bend to your opionon...*jeeze* where is the horse you road in on? | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 5:32:01 AM | | I am going to call my parents to thank them for making the decision for me. I enjoy having a cheese free penis. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 7:43:51 AM | I'm not here to say that your opions are wrong, they are your opions and you have a right to have them just like anyone else. frankly i find it offensive that you suggest Alberta would be more backward than southern Alabama or Somalia where circumcision is more common. In fact on a world scale it tends to be underdeveloped countries that still support circumcision.
I have read up on this for various courses for school when we dealt with genital mutilation. So i would like to point out some more educated peoples opinions on the subject who have spent a lot more time on it than we have.
First of all it's not dirty http://www.nocirc.org/articles/fleiss1.php
* One of the most common myths about circumcision is that it makes the penis cleaner and easier to take care of. This is not true. Eyes without eyelids would not be cleaner; neither would a penis without its foreskin. The artificially externalized glans and meatus of the circumcised penis are constantly exposed to abrasion and dirt, making the circumcised penis, in fact, more unclean. The loss of the protective foreskin leaves the urinary tract vulnerable to invasion by bacterial and viral pathogens.
The circumcision wound is larger than most people imagine. It is not just the circular point of union between the outer and inner layers of the remaining skin. Before a baby is circumcised, his foreskin must be torn from his glans, literally skinning it alive. This creates a large open area of raw, bleeding flesh, covered at best with a layer of undeveloped proto-mucosa. Germs can easily enter the damaged tissue and bloodstream through the raw glans and, even more easily, through the incision itself.
Even after the wound has healed, the externalized glans and meatus are still forced into constant unnatural contact with urine, feces, chemically treated diapers, and other contaminants.
Female partners of circumcised men do not report a lower rate of cervical cancer,40 nor does circumcision prevent penile cancer.41 A recent study shows that the penile cancer rate is higher in the US than in Denmark, where circumcision, except among Middle-Eastern immigrant workers, is almost unheard of.42 Indeed, researchers should investigate the possibility that circumcision has actually increased the rate of these diseases.
Circumcision does not prevent acquisition or transmission of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). In fact, the US has both the highest percentage of sexually active circumcised males in the Western world and the highest rates of sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS. Rigorously controlled prospective studies show that circumcised American men are at a greater risk for bacterial and viral STDs, especially gonorrhea,43 nongonoccal urethritis,44 human papilloma virus,45 herpes simplex virus type 2,46 and chlamydia.47
it's not as widespread practice anymore as witnessed here http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/
Some unofficial statistics for 2003 for seven provinces and one territory, which had 75 percent of the total male births in Canada found that only 11.46 percent of Canadian infant boys in the reporting provinces and territories are being circumcised, which leaves 88.14 percent intact.
as for benefits of foreskin http://www.nocirc.org/articles/fleiss1.php
# rotection: Just as the eyelids protect the eyes, the foreskin protects the glans and keeps its surface soft, moist, and sensitive. It also maintains optimal warmth, pH balance, and cleanliness. The glans itself contains no sebaceous glands-glands that produce the sebum, or oil, that moisturizes our skin.11 The foreskin produces the sebum that maintains proper health of the surface of the glans. # Immunological Defense: The mucous membranes that line all body orifices are the body's first line of immunological defense. Glands in the foreskin produce antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as lysozyme.12 Lysozyme is also found in tears and mother's milk. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, an immune system component, abound in the foreskin's outer surface.13 Plasma cells in the foreskin's mucosal lining secrete immunoglobulins, antibodies that defend against infection.14 # Erogenous Sensitivity: The foreskin is as sensitive as the fingertips or the lips of the mouth. It contains a richer variety and greater concentration of specialized nerve receptors than any other part of the penis.15 These specialized nerve endings can discern motion, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations of texture.16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 # Coverage During Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans. # Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated. # Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, movable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing. # The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix-a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 9:10:38 AM | Its not widespread practice because people have to pay for it. It's amazing how people always grab a freebee...Anyone who can be open minded to both sides of the issue can make an unbiased decision. I would pay any price to have it done to my child...sooo worth it. AJ is the only one on here that makes any sense...Every anti-circ. website is totally devoted to foreskin worship, and scare tactics through emotion. Or they use word trickery and twist facts...none with any documentation to back it up, just heresay. However, not one of these sites have any scientific backing to prove what they claim. Try finding one that is unbiased and presents facts from both sides of the issue...you may be surprised what you see. but , then again, you love your foreskins and live in denial that a moist sweaty place beneath skin can be remotely dirty. And I like having a maintenance free penis. Makes more sense. I just don't see any benefits whatsoever of leaving the foreskin intact. And don't tell me sensitivity...there is NO scientific evidence to prove that; it's like comparing apples to oranges. And penile cancer...that is another thing a foreskin can attract. By getting circumsized, it virtually removes any chance of it. That is all.
post below...you are right...They are going to believe what they want to...as will I. This is just getting stupid...I'm just gunna keep away from this topic now. As long as I know I'm right...hehehe | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 9:16:15 AM | I dont like uncut d.icks, they arent visually appealing to me.
then again, cut d.icks dont do much for me either.
I guess Im just not a fan of the c.ock.
uncut vs. cut will forever be a debate....
Some like it, some dont.
it's a personal preference.
Nobody can say "cutis better!' or "Uncut is better!' Because while YOU may feel that way..someone else doesnt.
Forcing your opinions on others, just makes them resent you.
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 9:40:41 AM | | Ive never felt any discomfort with being cut in my life. I was uncut till i was 12 years old and until then i couldnt roll the skin all the way back and it would hurt. So i had to get circumsized. I am quite happy how things turned out and would never look back. Being cut is in for me. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 10:59:11 AM |
Its not widespread practice because people have to pay for it. It's amazing how people always grab a freebee...Anyone who can be open minded to both sides of the issue can make an unbiased decision. I would pay any price to have it done to my child...sooo worth it. AJ is the only one on here that makes any sense...Every anti-circ. website is totally devoted to foreskin worship, and scare tactics through emotion. Or they use word trickery and twist facts...none with any documentation to back it up, just heresay. However, not one of these sites have any scientific backing to prove what they claim. Try finding one that is unbiased and presents facts from both sides of the issue...you may be surprised what you see. but , then again, you love your foreskins and live in denial that a moist sweaty place beneath skin can be remotely dirty. And I like having a maintenance free penis. Makes more sense. I just don't see any benefits whatsoever of leaving the foreskin intact. And don't tell me sensitivity...there is NO scientific evidence to prove that; it's like comparing apples to oranges. And penile cancer...that is another thing a foreskin can attract. By getting circumsized, it virtually removes any chance of it. That is all.
post below...you are right...They are going to believe what they want to...as will I. This is just getting stupid...I'm just gunna keep away from this topic now. As long as I know I'm right...hehehe
I find it amazing how quickly you dismiss the facts even when they are presented to you you. I'm sure you will be one who claims it never rains even if you stand outside getting wet.
You seem to have reversed your logic. Every pro-circumcision website have claims that are not backed up or if so poorly done using faulty logic to scare people such as the penis is dirty if it has a foreskin and that woman prefer it cut, those my friend are scare tactics.
Although i'm sure Medical doctors are biased there seem to be growing numbers of medical research showing the benefits of keeping the skin. I have yet been presented with any research that shows that a penis is dirty becaue it has foreskin, feel free to correct me on it I would value the additional knowledge and insight and woudl make your points more creditable.
Unless you completely ignored my post you will find that your claims are false and that there are plenty of medical studies to disprove your outlandish claims of it being more dirty than any other penis. I learned to take showers and wash myself so any of this "d*ck cheese" -> also known as smegma does not occur in people who wash themselves and has a normal healthy penis. .
the fact is that circumcision is not needed in civilized countries. The only reason why it is still performed is either through religious reasons (predominantly muslim and jewish in this case), medical complications (which are rare but do occur) or because people have been brainwashed into believing that it is prettier and more clean without any backing whatsoever from the scientific community.
The facts speak for themselves. Any genital mutliation, male or female, should be outlawed on people who can not make the decision for themselves and are able to make an informed decision. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 2:40:42 PM | | i dont think this thread was made for any of u to argue about wether u should or not be circumsized. if your not and ur happy by all means gitty up.. and if u are circumized thats great. why argue which is better??? maybe for those of who have never been circumsized dont know whats its like to be circumsized so why judge the other and for the other way around. everyone has there preference leave it at that. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 3:01:28 PM | Well i dont really want to argue that one is better than the other rather than the morality involved in choosing the operation on an infant.
that being said there is a lot of misconceptions that should be addressed.
telling someone that their penis is dirty because they are not circumcised is an insult at best on a persons ability to clean themselves.
that being said if a guy decides he wants to be circumcised more power to them. I couldn't care less what someone does to their own body, but when it involves others, that's when one should question the motives behind the decision. | |
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Raos
| Joined: 8/7/2006 Msg: 213 | |
| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 3:15:55 PM |
Why do people live in denial that the area under the foreskin is dirty? Hasn't anyone in the world ever had to be circumsized later in life because of this? Do people who brush their teeth ever get cavities?
Should we also then surgically remove everybody's lips as a child, so the mouth stays drier?
And why the surgeons dont perform this procedure where you are? lol Its Alberta, the same place that doesnt have curbside recycling...they still throw tin cans in the trash. Totally backwards this day in age.
I have curbside recycling. Edmonton has some of the most advanced waste facilities (including recycling and compost) in the world, and I believe Edmonton diverts more of it's waste from the landfill than any other Canadian city.
and it is far crueler to let a person wait till they are in medical need to have the procedure done than to do it as a baby. Learn to think for yourself.
No, it's far crueler to expose the 98% of boys who won't have a problem to the extreme pain for no good reason.
I am going to call my parents to thank them for making the decision for me. I enjoy having a cheese free penis.
Well, perhaps I should call my parents and thank them for not cutting me, and teaching me good hygiene, because I enjoy having an intact cheese free penis.
Well i dont really want to argue that one is better than the other rather than the morality involved in choosing the operation on an infant.
Exactly. You're making a decision for your child that cannot be reversed. Once cut, always cut. Leave them intact, and they can always choose later on to get a circumcision if they choose. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 3:20:48 PM | | As a professional and also uncut, i had to comment on this subject. After 53 years on this earth i can honestly tell you soldier man, only people i know that have had problems have all been cut. Clean is clean and dirty is not clean, either way you say it ,doesnt matter if your cut or not. one more thing. Its a proven fact uncut is more sensitive and the ladies loveit.. at 53 i still go round 3 or more times a day. MY g/freind is 23 and she can hardly keep up. So many people are so mis-informed when it comes to circumcision. Thats too bad. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 3:35:21 PM | "So many people are so mis-informed when it comes to circumcision. Thats too bad."
--Yes...I totally agree, it is too bad. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 3:36:56 PM | How about we just cut all your d.icks off, and we can end this debate, once and for all?
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 6:37:31 PM | If being uncircumcised is better, why not just leave it at that? Why do uncut men have to constantly try to prove that having a foreskin is better than not?
First off, it's not mutilation. If anything, it's a cosmetic improvement. A mutilated penis would be rendered useless. My penis is extremely functional and has brought great pleasure to me and my sexual partners. As defined by Wikipedia - is an act or physical injury that degrades the appearance or function of the (human) body, usually without causing death.
I think that most people would agree that a circumcised penis is much more aesthically appealing than an un-circumcised one.
Please don't compare female circumcision to male circumcision. Female circumcision has no function other than to eliminate sexual pleasure. The clitoris is removed as compared to a male having a small piece of skin removed.
This is going in circles but I will gladly keep it going. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 7:15:58 PM | ^^ I do not agree that a circumcised penis is much more aseptically appealing than an uncut one. we are talking about an erect penis right?? if so, I have said it before I will say it again, most of the uncut d*cks look just like a cut d*ck when hard.
I have been in 4 ltr, 2 were cut, 2 werent. I have never experienced the 'smelly penis' or smegma from the uncut ones.
a d*ck is a d*ck, you fall in love with what ever kind is attached to the man you love.
My son is uncut, but if one day he decides he wants it, or has medical reason's for doing so, I will back him 100%. Until than, Im not worried about it. All the boys born now, are not being cut anymore around here. very rare that a parent pays for it to be done. it will be the cut ones that will be made fun of in school. 
all you guys arguing about this is pretty silly, I thought us women were the ones that are obsessed with the penis. you guys not telling us something?!?!?!?!  | |
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Raos
| Joined: 8/7/2006 Msg: 219 | |
| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 7:19:58 PM | As has already been stated, a circumsized penis has less sensitivity than an intact penis. That would fall under degrading the function of the body. As far as appearance, it's a matter of opinion. In the US, more would probably say that they prefer a circumsized penis, because it's more common, so it's what they're used to. In the rest of the world, the opposite is likely true.
And every time you try to imply uncircumsized men are self-conscious about their state because their trying to prove it's better, there's always a comment from you about why circumsized is better. Curious, no? | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 7:31:38 PM |
As has already been stated, a circumsized penis has less sensitivity than an intact penis.
Maybe you have been skipping over the posts where the newly circumcised man has praised the procedure in his adulthood.
Also, I never said that circumcised is better. However, I did say that I enjoy having a cheese free penis. | |
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Raos
| Joined: 8/7/2006 Msg: 221 | |
| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 7:57:38 PM | Great, he prefers his penis circumsized. It's clearly not such a devastating traumatic occurence for a grown man, so why not leave the foreskin until every man can make his own choice?
Also, I never said that circumcised is better.
a circumcised penis is much more aesthically appealing than an un-circumcised one.
Of course you didn't... | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 8:16:58 PM | | why would u leave it to be your sons decision? when he does not even know the difference. Much rather be changing the diaper of a little boy who looks like he has a penis and not some kind of elephants trunk. just my preference andi know for a of fact that when this little boy is older he will not be calling me and saying mommy why didnt u leave me have foreskin on my penis. come on now. your preference is yours and mine is mine as i know of many men that had to get it done later and life and claim its much easier if they would have had it done as babies. if u dont like my opinion or choice on this then its unfortunate. You have ur opinion and options as we all do. and if was mutilation for this to be done to a baby do honestly think doctors would agree to do it?? i think not. | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 8:51:35 PM | perhaps you skipped my post. It is only going in circles because it appears no reliable scientific reasons are presented for circumcision.
The reason for the claims of it being better for you is merely a rebuttal to the outragous claims that some people make that it is either cleaner, prettier or in anyway better for you to be cut. these are myths which has been shown to be untrue.
I personally dont care that you are circumcised or not, but it is when people make claims that are nothing but lies then i want to correct it. This is especially so considering the unclean part is practically an insult.
Mutliation as defined by dictionary.com mu·ti·late ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mytl-t) tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.
although one can argue the finer points it is just as valid to call it mutliation than anything else. nowhere does it say mutilate means rendering it useless. as you also pointed out it means degrates the function. since we have proven that the circumcised penis is more sensitive I think it is fairly easy to back this up.
as for female circumcision you shoudl read up on it. There are several variations depending on the cultural background. Not all involve cutting off the clitoris, some are based on "hoodectomy" where the hood of the clitoris is removed. This sounds remarkably similar to removing the foreskin does it not? | |
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| Circumcision... Posted: 8/18/2006 9:00:29 PM |
Maybe you have been skipping over the posts where the newly circumcised man has praised the procedure in his adulthood.
Also, I never said that circumcised is better. However, I did say that I enjoy having a cheese free penis.
perhaps you missed the post the explained that the person who claimed it was better afterwards did not have a normal uncircumcised penis. There are some men, and not too many, who are unable to retract the foreskin, this is corrected surgically. Everyone on here who claims it is better cut has had this problem thereby making it obvious that they enjoyed it more afterwards.
As for your statement of having a cheese free penis. Well congratulations i dont know anyone who actually has a cheese penis so i'm not sure why you would need to bring it up nor how it supports your opinons on the matter. | |
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| Infant's death another nail in circumcision's coffin Posted: 8/19/2006 12:16:55 AM | Vindicator says... "I would pay any price to have it done to my child...sooo worth it"
Is it really? "The death of a 5-week-old British Columbia boy 2 days after he was circumcised" http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/167/7/789-a
and more circumcision deaths in the news. http://www.cirp.org/news/ | |
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