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| | The Zeitgeist MovementPage 2 of 11 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) | Hey glasgowian
You stated that:
"If a bridge needs to be built somewhere it doesn't involve a parliamentary debate on what the tensile strength of the steel needs to be. Civil engineers arrive at the decision based on what load it needs to bear and other relevant factors. They don't have a referendum on it, they rely on the immutable laws of physics and mathematics. Nor would there ever be a parliamentary debate on the best conditions for growing a particular crop - this is something that can also be established by exact, measurable science."
Only a few questions........ WHO decides that a bridge "NEEDS" to be built? Who, or what entity, would have the POWER to make that decision, and then to enforce it, as you will always have those that disagree? HOW would this entity that has the power to make such decisions to spend that much of collective money, acquired such power? WHO or HOW was the framework for the inception of this entity created or is it currently in force?
Enquiring minds need to know.......
Paul K | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 2/28/2011 4:00:42 PM | | Bridges are built to satisfy a transportation need from one location to another and the location of them is never (or at least shouldn't be) arbitrary. Factors like geology and transportation flow are taken into account. It's not a case of "I know let's build a bridge, where's a good place?". A transportation system designed from scratch linking two cities, to be sustainable, would look at minimising the amount of material used, environmental impact assessment of the route and would be designed to not need upgrading or replacement as often as bridges currently are. There would also need to be only one main crossing point over a river based on the types of transporation and city systems the Venus Project propose (http://thevenusproject.com/en/technology/city-systems). Money is not a factor because in a resource based economy there would be no money - that is actually one of the fundamentals. The question would be of resource availability, not "can we afford it?" Thus elimination of cost constraints could allow use of the best, most durable materials and construction processes. Also in terms of environmental impact and affect on the landscape, in many cases it could be determined that a tunnel (which in many cases would be ruled out on cost grounds at present) is a better option - perhaps using a submerged prefabricated tube rather than excavating through rock if this is contraindicated (e.g. in an earthquake zone). | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 2/28/2011 5:08:34 PM | Hey glasgoian
I am glad that you stuck to an example of a bridge/tunnel...... However, I will try again....... you wrote:
"in many cases it could be determined that a tunnel (which in many cases would be ruled out on cost grounds at present) is a better option"
Again, WHO has the AUTHORITY, to make that determination, and what if the entity that has that authority was divided as to which option was a better option? And, again, WHO vested authority to these entities? You are glossing over what is fundamently one aspect of human nature that will never change, and that is if you ask 1000 people the same question, you will get 1500 answers.............
The Venus project you refer to is doomed to be nothing more than it is, and that is mental masturbation. Who in their right mind would want to live in a city/town/state, where EVERYTHING is the same? Are you crazy? Seeing how you would never be able to get humanity to live that way, you would have to FORCE THEM...... And, again, how would the agency doing the forcing, have received authority vested in them to do said forcing?
You keep glossing over these points, because it looks so nice, everybody has everything they need, there is no want.....................
BULL$HIT. You will never get humanity to agree to it, unless you lobatomized everybody first. The funniest part is where you said that money would not be a factor.............. Very cool, as in your prospective society, I would go to North Carolina, and tell the nice folks at Fountain Boats that I need one of their 31' Center consoles with a pair of 275hp Mercs......... After all, I need it, and all my needs are supposed to be met. Don't forget the triple axle aluminum trailer............
Paul K | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 2/28/2011 10:06:40 PM |
If you were to look at things like the zeitgeist movement, and all utopianists, you will see that there is only one way to achieve as they so fervently believe in, and that is through an ALL POWERFUL state, that controls all..................
Seems pretty obvious to me. Utopian fantasies like these rely either on this all powerful state (=no personal freedom) or on 7 billion people fundamentally changing their values. This one in particular seems to have an unrealistic view of science too. They act as if you can plug in some data into a computer and it will magically predict where we need to build bridges, how much wheat to grow, etc. Planned economies never work, but that's what the Venus Project is based on. | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 2/28/2011 11:24:24 PM | Ahh Paul, It;s good to talk to you again. I've heard of Proenneke. In fact I hope to live the rest of my life much as he did. If all goes well, I should be getting away from our disgusting miserable excuse for civilization within the year, hopefully by fall. Being city born & bred (read as "soft"), there is much to learn and it may kill me, but at least I'll die happy, working to build a small community of like-minded people.
Getting back to "Zeitgeist":
if said parties were no longer around, what would take their place?
How about the rule of law as supreme and administrative bodies operating transparently and open to public scrutiny? The public SERVANTS could be elected/appointed according to whatever rules the public decides. The divisive charade of partisan politics has pretty well run its course don't you think? It isn't fooling anyone anymore...unless they need watering twice a week.
Government should NOT be composed of leaders; it should be composed of FOLLOWERS of the public wish. The public itself should be controlled by natural law, which I think is best expressed as "Do as you damn well please as long as you do no harm. If you do the crime, you'll get due process, then hang." | |
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Posted: 3/1/2011 7:50:51 AM |
Seems pretty obvious to me. Utopian fantasies like these rely either on this all powerful state (=no personal freedom) or on 7 billion people fundamentally changing their values. This one in particular seems to have an unrealistic view of science too. They act as if you can plug in some data into a computer and it will magically predict where we need to build bridges, how much wheat to grow, etc. Planned economies never work, but that's what the Venus Project is based on.
You are correct in that it would be impossible to create this kind of society today or in five years from now even and no one has denied it would involve a shift in cultural values. Infact cultural evolution would probably be a key aspect more so than the technology. Even the man behind the Venus Project, Jacque Fresco has admitted it would involve a transition phase and it is more likely the human race will destroy itself or when key resources (e.g. oil) run out, we will see military dictatorships in Western countries (the infrastructure and legal frameworks for martial law are already in place e.g. the Patriot Act and the DHS in the US and the Civil Contingencies Act and COBRA in the UK) to protect the elite and prevent complete social breakdown. Picture the G20 demo policing with army backup as an ever present feature in every major city and that's what we could be looking at. Fresco also said the present system would need to fail first of all for the Venus Project to be seen as a viable alternative. Given its utter lack of sustainability the present system will fail completely - it's only a matter of when (and whether it will be gradual or catastrophic) and humanity could end up facing a choice of the Venus Project type society or something akin to the Mad Max movies.
As for personal freedom it pretty much depends on how you define that. People have freedom in some areas and not others. If the government say's you have to pay tax you pay tax. If you get called up for jury duty you don't get out of it without a valid excuse. If the US and UK governments decide they need conscripts to send into Libya in 6 months time because armed forces are overstretched elsewhere then a good few of us will be receiving our draft papers. Right now you only have as much freedom as the established powers (i.e. governments and the corporations and bankers that fund them) see fit to give you (in many western countries they've been salami slicing it in recent years and people are being very subtly trained to obey officials without question) or your spending power allows you. Its a bit of a misnomer anyway when most people spend their entire working day in what is essentially a dictatorship. Different degrees of freedom exist in different places anyway. In Egypt under Mubarak tourists would have been approached by people in the street all over the place selling fake Rolexes and cheap jewellery out of briefcases. Try doing that in central London and it will be a matter of minutes before you are surrounded by half a dozen police officers. We have a generation of young children now who are going to grow up thinking it is normal to be contantly surveilled by the state - by CCTV cameras and by monitoring and logging financial transactions. In the UK we are starting to see fingerprinting of children in schools.
Computers don't do anything by magic - computer modelling uses software with specifications developed and tested by experts in that particular area. Software can be created to model any systems that involve mathematically quantifiable variables and even the most complex of formulae. All it is is algebra. Engineers already use computer modelling to predict the stresses on a structure such as a dam. You can calculate how much wheat to grow this year based on last year's crop (i.e. how much wastage was there? did supply meet demand?)
Communist countries like China and the USSR have been largely based on slave labour and demagoguery with as much social stratification as is present with Capitalism only without means for social mobility. If human labour were to be replaced by mechanised systems what exactly would the slaves denied freedom (which many critics think citizens of a Venus Project tye of society would be) be forced to do?
As for the issue of how decisions need to be made - in what would essentially be an "open source" society anyone that wants to would be able to participate in the decision making processes. Trough feeding politicians bought by corporate lobbyists who's interests they always put first could be replaced by referendums in which everyone who wants to take part can do so. It would require a society that is highly educated and elightened as opposed to one that is dumbed down and pacified by puerile entertainment. Unfortunately in our society we seem to have lost touch with the intrinsic value of education (beyond a qualification for a job).
We are seeing developments just now like the UN Agenda 21 which is really a blueprint for a covert global dictatorship becoming more pervasive in local government policy making. We are starting to see supranational NGOs like the World Trade Organisation, World Health Organisation, the Codex Alimentarius Commission, IMF, World Bank, etc which are democratically accountable to no one, assuming powers that trump and override the authority of national governments in many areas. As well as that various supranational think tanks that are full of people with vested interests and agendas of hegemony that are not necessarily acting in the best interests of people as a whole. In the European Union (which no one voted to create, has an unelected President and almost 80% of our laws now come from) there are people and organisations discussing the "post-democratic" era. This is the real nature of globalization. | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/1/2011 9:43:20 AM | err, yes..
"TRANSITION PERIOD" eh?
that's what the people who controlled the Russian Revolution in 1917 said: "Well we will just need a short transition period of harsh state control by the Communist Party, then of course people will all be "enlightened" and we can enjoy our communist "Utopia"..
of course, the "Transition Period" never ended ..and you got pogroms, starvation of the Ukrainians, vast purges of opposing politicians (Stalin having his "Friend"/rival Trotsky killed and many, many others), the KGB, Gulags, political prisoners, "young Communists" kids spying on their parents and reporting them to the State for not being "Good Communists", backing & supporting of the most repressive & terroristic regimes (Sierra Leone, Cuba, Angola, Libya, Iraq, then later Iran, N. Korea, N. Vietnam, etc., etc.- basically any country that would accept communist help and fight against imperialistic Yankee-backed people or countries)
The 'transition period' just went on & on & on..over multiple generations, the first ( & 2nd & #rd & so on) generation that participated never got to see "utopia"..
still have the KGB, (now re-named the FSB) , repression, most of the same ol' shite, maybe toned down a bit since 'glasnost' & 'perestroika' . similar tales in Cuba, N. Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia/Kampuchea, etc., etc. --"re-education" camps where anyone not proclaiming themselves to be staunch commies would be shot | |
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Posted: 3/1/2011 9:46:57 AM | Glasgow man, you're 36 years old, doubtful you'd be getting 'draft papers' so save your worry.
so many people "freed" from ever having to work?
would mean mass depression because they'd have too much time on their hands and not know what to do with themselves..
ever see what happens to Hollywood stars/stars/pro athletes who are highly paid and not always kept busy? money without responsibility..
so many destroy themselves with illegal drugs & booze, see Lindsay Lohan, too many rock starts to mention, etc., etc.
the majority (perhaps not all) people have a 'need' to be led. | |
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Posted: 3/1/2011 10:31:05 AM | read some of Ayn Rand's books, though she's rather doctrinaire I think she deals with this shite quite well and her books were mostly written 50-60-70 or more years ago.
human nature doesn't really change over time despite changes in technology, etc.
"The Fountainhead", "Atlas Shrugged", etc. | |
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Posted: 3/1/2011 11:26:21 AM | Jacque Fresco actually explained in one of his lectures what a transitional phase would likely entail.
Essentially what they are hoping to do is develop a prototype city based on their concepts which people would be able to visit, learn about and decide if they want to create similar concepts in their own countries. For it to work and "go viral" people would need to consider it to be better than what they already have (which wouldn't be much of a stretch in places with growing levels of poverty, unemployment and youth crime) and if it takes off it would eventually reach what you could call critical mass. The concept has a number of parallels with the Transition Towns movement but with the focus being on application of the most advanced science and technology available. The early stages would obviously require some kind of funding and administrative oversight to get self sustaining infrastructure put in place and the idea is that new cities would be built rather than uprgading existing ones. Sure some people might want to go and live in log cabins in some remote rural area instead and some Australian Aboriginals for example might carry on the way they are living off the land but over time they'd become a very small minority.
Labour saving devices have always been developed to improve peoples lives, such as not having to scrub your clothes on a washboard with a bar of soap because someone invented automatic washing machines that turn dirty laundry clean and dry. Computer controlled machines can extract coal from the ground so people don't have to go into dangerous mine shafts with pick axes. TVP is merely the logical extension of technological progress.
The biggest misconception seems to be that it would need to be adopted wholesale and if it were then I agree it would probably be an absolute failure. The types of infrastructure envisioned could be put in place without the removal of political structures but over time many policies, institutions and laws would become obsolete. For example eliminating monetary currency would render obsolete banks, insurance, stock markets, and all laws pertaining to these things. Designing transport systems that would prevent car accidents could render many traffic laws obsolete. In theory this could reach a stage where MPs or Senators have very little to do and any decision making needed could be done locally by community councils. Rather than jobs vanishing overnight the reduction in labour demand could be offset by a progressive shortening of the working week (there are places and industry sectors where the idea of a three day week is being floated) and longer holidays.
Laziness is a trait that people learn. Toddlers for example are constantly eager to learn new things, make things and find out how things work. My nephew and niece are fascinated by everything. By the time children go to school that starts to be drummed out of them when they are told to sit down and be quiet (or even at home when they are put in front of that brainwashing device in the corner of the room). We would also need an education system that encourages volunteerism, sharing, discovery, imagination and creative thinking, not just in the early years but throughout life (also peer pressure could be applied in a positive way). That also encourages people to think about how they can play a positive role in society (whether that's through science, the arts, educating others, etc). The people who have made the biggest contribution to the world and to progress were never motivated by money. Many of them weren't even recognised for their contributions in their own lifetimes. Unfortunately education is more of an indoctrination system than anything else (I read an article by an academic in a newspaper 15 years ago claiming just that) and students who challenge or question what they are taught in classes are often seen as troublemakers by teachers, who should be encouraging them to constantly challenge conventionally accepted paradigms.
"Idle rich" footballers and actors who turn to drugs and alcohol probably have underlying psychological issues, plus the pressure of being idolised and being treated like public property by the media which many of them simply don't have the emotional maturity to handle. In general they are not well educated and like many of us are conditioned by the media to seek hapiness in material gain or external things. The same often happens with people who get big lottery wins and a few years later end up worse off than they were to begin with because they blew it all on junk. | |
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Posted: 3/1/2011 11:49:03 AM | Hey glasgowian
You wrote:
"Communist countries like China and the USSR have been largely based on slave labour and demagoguery with as much social stratification as is present with Capitalism only without means for social mobility."
The fact that you realize that there is possibility of "social mobility", meaning opportunity to improve ones lot in life I am assuming, means that there is still hope for you. Too many people look at society today, and rant on and on about how it is a rigged game, how nobody can acomplish anything, all of the defeatist nonsense that I believe is put out there so that people STOP TRYING, thereby making it easier for the Fresco's of the world to prevail.
Let me ask you a few things......... Would you be happy living in exactly the same house as ALL of your fellow city dwellers? Would you be happy with everything looking exactly alike? Would you be happy if you could not make the choice to be living out in the woods? Would you be happy if everybody took the same transportation mode, dressed alike, and were told WHAT and HOW MUCH they needed by a central govt?
THAT is the part that fresco doesn't tell you about, because if he did, he would be laughed out of existance, as he should be.
That having been said, look to see where the real problem is......... The biggest problem today is overpopulation. lets take a look at the EU and see what segments of the population are "overpopulating", and which segments aren't even at a level of sustaining themselves......... I know, there are those that right know would badge me a racist, BUT, the FACTS are there. Getting people educated in what the consequesnces are, and having them go by those conclusions, rather than blindly following what some leader tells them is the way to solve the problems. People like fresco who propose solutions that are basically nothing less that total govt. control always come around and package the idea differently, but when you open the box, it is always the same steaming, stinking pile of $hit.
Your defense of fresco glaringly never address the WHO it is that weilds the power, and the HOW of how they got that power, and the WHAT it is that they derive that power from. THOSE are the questions that you need to address, not the CG pics of just how nice it is going to be, because by not addressing those issues, you are falling into the same trap as generations past have.
Todays total govt. control crowd has the SAME ideas as those in the past, but they now say, LOOK, our ideas are proven to be correct by a computer, why, just look at the drawings of just how nice it will be. What they are in essence saying is that the ones in control in the past where the wrong people, BUT, now we have the right people. What they are missing is that the idea itself is a steaming, stinking pile of $hit that has been tried and proven not to work.
This is not new, and unfortunately, will be tried again and again as humanity goes on. The reason for this is that there will always be those who think that they have the answers, but fail to take HUMAN NATURE into account.
Paul K | |
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Posted: 3/1/2011 11:56:03 AM | Hey dukky
You wrote:
"Ahh Paul, It;s good to talk to you again. I've heard of Proenneke. In fact I hope to live the rest of my life much as he did."
Before you proclaim that you will live much as Proeneke did, you really do need to find out more about him, and how he actually lived..................
Besides, the DVD is beyond interesting. How's your manifesto coming along?
Paul K | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/2/2011 8:22:36 AM |
Let me ask you a few things......... Would you be happy living in exactly the same house as ALL of your fellow city dwellers? Would you be happy with everything looking exactly alike? Would you be happy if you could not make the choice to be living out in the woods? Would you be happy if everybody took the same transportation mode, dressed alike, and were told WHAT and HOW MUCH they needed by a central govt?
I can't speak for your part of the world but most new-build housing in the UK looks more or less exactly the same and fairly bland as it is. Glasgow is full of (albeit very attractive) four floor sandstone tenement buildings that also look more or less identical. Then there are the drab concrete monstrosities that were built all over the place in the 1960s.
The Venus Project have actually outlined how design centres would be set up so people would be able to custom design their own homes to whatever their requirements would be, largely from modular systems. Also an architect or interior designer would be able to put their designs straight into essentially the public domain for anyone to use since it would be pointless to patent anything. The same would apply to the design for anything. What people wear is already dictated to a great extent by fashion.
You can get a printer (RepRap) capable of printing all the components needed to construct an exact replica of it. It works by building up layers of material (whether its copper, polymer resin or composite material). It has demonstrated that this technology could be scaled up to create something like the shell of a house by layering the walls. With the right software and hardware you would just need to create or load a design and put the system to work. Most car parts are fabricated and assembled 100% by robots as it is.
This really needs to be looked at outside the context of western consumerism. If that continues unabated the world will end up like in the movie Wall-E.
I would ask if people would be happy knowing that poverty, starvation and war no longer exist anywhere in the world. Twenty thousand or so children will die today in the third world from malnutrition, curable diseases or lack of access to clean water. The Venus Project is as much about them as about those who drive around cities in SUVs.
If someone wanted to live in the woods and cut down trees to build a house I doubt anyone would stop them. Hardly anyone does that as it is - most people want modern conveniences which is why most people live in cities and most Western nations have strict immigration policies (even if they're not well enforced). Some people would want individual houses and others would want apartments. People also wouldn't be tied to the one location to the extent they are today. There are waterfront apartment blocks in London where a 2 bedroom apartment would cost as much as four large houses with huge gardens in other parts of the UK - yet people who could afford to live anywhere and commute to London in a helicopter if they wanted to ,choose to live in them. | |
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Posted: 3/2/2011 8:44:24 AM |
Also an architect or interior designer would be able to put their designs straight into essentially the public domain for anyone to use since it would be pointless to patent anything.
err..yes. I can see how there would be great incentive to spend years of one's life studying architecture when there is basically no return for doing so, you would get the same lifestyle as someone who has lounged about in his underwear for the same four years while you were studying your butt off?
same for medical doctors, etc. or would all that be done by the 'machines' you spoke of?
why would we even need "human" architects?
'machines' could do everything?
ah I can see it now, Terminator II :The Rise of The Machines..lol
They will take control then unleash "Judgment Day" on humankind as they will become self-aware and want to control EVERYTHING, get rid of pesky humans altogether | |
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Posted: 3/2/2011 9:58:31 AM | Hey glasgowian
Ah, finally, here it is........... you wrote:
"I would ask if people would be happy knowing that poverty, starvation and war no longer exist anywhere in the world. Twenty thousand or so children will die today in the third world from malnutrition, curable diseases or lack of access to clean water. The Venus Project is as much about them as about those who drive around cities in SUVs.". Your dig on "western consummerism" is rather telling too..
FINALLY, the truth comes out........... it IS the SUV's that are being driven around that really stick in your craw............. never mind that you wrote in your next paragraph.........
"There are waterfront apartment blocks in London where a 2 bedroom apartment would cost as much as four large houses with huge gardens in other parts of the UK - yet people who could afford to live anywhere and commute to London in a helicopter if they wanted to ,choose to live in them."
DUDE, using a HELICOPTER to COMMUTE? Now I am convinced that this really is a practical joke which you are perpetuating, because no one in their right mind would disparage SUV's in one sentence and then recomend that a HELICOPTER be used for communting. Lets follow your "logic", (even though there is none), can you answer how you are going to get a helicopter that uses less fuel and emits less crap than an SUV? And to answer by saying that it hasn't been invented yet doesn't count. As far as why a two bed apt. can cost more than four houses....... welcome to the real world, where in real estate, the three most imoprtant things are location, location, and location................
The point I keep stressing is that in order for this fantasy world to ever come to order, you would have to have a very strong, totalitarian central govt., that decides FOR YOU what you NEED, and the IF you get that need met. Like another very astute poster just said, this is nothing more than re-packaged communism....... That is proven beyond shadow of a doubt when you said:
"Also an architect or interior designer would be able to put their designs straight into essentially the public domain for anyone to use since it would be pointless to patent anything."
Yeah, that just sounds oh, so equitable, for a person to educate themselves to the point of being able to design things as you mentioned, and get NO recognition for it, as EVERYTHING would be in the "public domain". And the difference between this and what stalin, mao, pol pot, and every other murderous communist wanted to set up actually is what????
But, now the promoters of this version are not the murderous criminals that the first set of promoters were............... Like I've always said, those that argue for what you are arguing for always say that the IDEA is great, it was those who implemented it who were bad.
When, in reality, the idea is NOT workable in any way shape or form, no matter who it is at the controls. And, believe me, there will be lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of controls.
Finally, if you don't like the city where you live due to its old drab architechture, pack up your shit and MOVE, while you still can. Because if you wait until your version of uptopia is effected, chances are you will be stuck where you are. You really have fallen for a line of steaming, stinking horse $hit.
Paul K | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/2/2011 11:29:39 AM | Paul K
Western consumerism is the very core of the problems the world faces. The West accounts for about 10-15% of the world population but nearer 40% or so of the world's energy and resource consumption. Up until the 1960s most Western nations were capable of relying on largely domestic resources. The problem is throwaway culture more so than anything else.
FTR I happen to like the place where I live more so than the Venus Project concepts in most ways but I am very concerned about what kind of world future generations are going to inherit and how 7-9 billion people can live equitably and sustainably.
By 2050 we are going to need 2 planets just to sustain present consumption levels (bad news is we only have one). That's without considering the economic growth countries like China, India and Brazil are aiming for. Frankly fossil fuel consumption needs to be phased out within the next decade or so if the human race is to have any kind of future other than regressing to a post-industrial type of society. We can't possibly claim to live in a civilised world unless every child on the planet is given equal opportunity in life.
Climate change
Water pollution
Tropical deforestation
Peak oil
Unsustainable resource consumption
Over fishing
Excessive landfill use
Agricultural exploitation (largely "cash crops")
Radioactive contamination (especially in the Middle East)
The above are just a few examples of what future generations are going to face the consequences of if radical action is not taken and we don't have a great deal of time to act. These are not my claims but issues that have been addressed in hundreds, if not thousands, of peer reviewed papers by leading academics. It doesn't look as if solutions are going to come from politicians or even from the UN. | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/2/2011 11:42:00 AM | Hey glasgowian
It was academics that wrote all of the following garbage: Rules for Radicals, Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital, The Audacity of Hope...................
As far as solutions, looking to politicians is even worse than looking to the UN for a solution for anything at all. The solution is very simple, educate those that still believe that there is no problem in having a herd instead of a few kids. The problem with that is that those that will never get that are also the ones with the worst educational backrounds....................
Your problem has nothing to do with housing, it has to do with education.
Paul K | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/4/2011 11:48:18 PM | | Hey Paul...glad I grew up with three siblings rather than education. for darn sure. Too bad its only sane to have one these days. How very boring and ugly. Paul...tell me..do you really believe population control and etc., etc., cures all? What a joke. Oh by the way all of my siblings were somewhat educated and erudite in their respective ways. Oh..I see. You mean all those dumbos in India, etc who should be stopped!! At least according to you. We are educated up to our ying yangs here in the Western Hemisphere and yet our quality of life is disappearing. What has that got to do with your respect for Education? If we are REALLY educated, we would have nothing to do with this global madness that reduces all to slavery, peasanthood and numbness. The structure that supports education also supports the status quo. Too bad. Maintain the madness and consider yourself educated. Or more simply...the more money you have and the more toys...the better off you are...never mind the rest. | |
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Posted: 3/5/2011 3:52:07 PM |
Your problem has nothing to do with housing, it has to do with education.
^^^
First we have to learn how we function
then we have to choose how we function
Then who knows what may happen?
Something as miraculous as agreeing with PK :-) | |
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Posted: 3/7/2011 12:02:52 PM | Hey 60
Do you really think that the greater majority of people who have herds of kids have any clue as to the eventualities of their actions, in having very large families? THAT is the type of education I am referring to. I have never said, nor will I even intimate that forced population control is what we should be doing, that idea is from you , not me. My belief is that a better educated populace will, in general, be one that recognizes the pitfalls of certain of their actions on the generations to come, and takes action, if they can, to correct those pitfalls.
Education in and of itself is NOT what will make a person secure in his lifestyle. There is a lot more to it. There has to be a desire to succeed, as desire to produce a better life for yourself and your offspring. That having been said, just being educated gaurantees nothing as far as success goes, it is just one tool in the arsenal that is needed to be successful. Others are hard work, diligence with you money and being thrifty. The problem is that not all of those things are considered to be necessary today. The biggest pitfall I see today is that way too many people look to others for their own success, and that rarely if ever works.
Your inability to find a way to be happy within your own realities is not the problem of all others, it is YOUR problem, and the only one that can figure out the solution is YOU.
Paul K | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/8/2011 9:41:26 PM | | Paul...happiness is beside the point. Always and forever. A bigger picture never has anything to do with platitudes and saving your money. What is missing from your picture is an honest appraisal of global madness and moral torpitude. Please do not insult me with my personal lacking, these darn words and idealogies such as..."making life better for yourself and your offspring" is also the essence of the problem of what is ignored and denied. The problem as I see it...is that we are citizens of the Earth and nothing more, nothing less. Therein is the problem. Life demands more than personal success and happiness. Ugh. | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/9/2011 9:28:36 AM | Hey 60
Thanks for your comment, but show me where I insulted you......... didn't happen. You may disagree with my point of view, but how does that amount to an insult? Unless of course, YOUR particular way of thought is the one and only true path.
That having been said, personal happiness is very important to an individual, and all individuals are different. I don't see myself as a citizen of earth, I see myself as a citizen of my immediate community, then a citizen of the larger area, and finally a citizen of my country. You can wish for a new world order of everybody being a citizen of the earth, and nothing more or less, but that is a recipe for disaster.
Maybe you automatically assumed that by success I meant huge amounts of wealth and power. Well, if that is what it takes, I have no problem with that, because I do believe that all mankind has the freedom to make choices, and not be one of the egalitarian masses of earth. However personal happiness is not usually equated to wealth, so please don't make that assumption.
Remember this, unless you are happy within your own "skin", you will be a miserable person.
Paul K | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/10/2011 11:09:31 PM | Being in your own "skin" is precisely where everybody goes wrong. You are right only to a certain extent. Happiness is a dumb principle. Period. Its ultimate goal is selfish. No need to delineate the personal pettiness and ultimate goal of what happiness really means. If happiness were defined as a whole rather than singular pursuit...we would then be talking sense.
Please do not tell me that the pursuit of wealth and power is acceptable. It never is, it never will be, it it is the reason we suffer. Kripes. Think about this for just a milla second. F...., what the hell is wrong with the egalitarian masses?
Oh please do not be ....diplomatic. Personal happiness has everything to do with what you did not consume to meet your wants and hungry ego desires. Hey....did you ever just SEE the sunrise?
Miserable is the definition of those who support the endless, blind, tiresome platitudes that are not beauty or definition of every person who had to die unawknowledged and forsaken due to a pursuit of creepy human happiness. Amen. | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/11/2011 12:02:17 PM | Hey 60
The problem with defining happiness is that if you as one million people what happiness is, you will get one million DIFFERENT answers. And, to complicate matters even more, those one million, if asked 10 years later most will have changed their answer. What you have is a moving target.
I've seen many sunrises and sunsets, but rarely has a sunrise or a sunset put food on my table, or given me someone who understands and loves me. The pursuit of power and wealth, has been denigrated to the point where people now look at someone who is just trying to provide a decent living and security for themselves and their family as being selfish. Usually those who point at others and say that they are being selfish are the ones who, for some reason or another, never were able to fend for themselves. Now, if you really want to follow the path of survival of the fittest, these who want to do nothing but sit around and watch sunsets would not survive too long............
My definition of wealth is having enough to be comfortable, and have created this for me and mine, without having it be at the expense of others. Even wealth is not a bad thing, as there are many who don't/can't ever achieve, yet they still need a place to live, food to eat, etc. Providing such ammenities is not a bad thing, or is it? Owning RE and renting it out is a good thing, as I keep my rents low, and have had the same tennents for decades. There is a reason for that.
Wealth becomes a bad thing when it is used to take advantage of people. Providing a residance in exchange for money is NOT a bad thing. What some people fail to realize is that all mankind is different....... some want to achieve, some don't, some want life simple, some clutter up their life intentionally...............
To answer your question, there is nothing wrong with having egalitarian masses, as long as those masses THEMSELVES choose that lifestyle. I have spent lots of time with people who lived behind what used to be called the Iron Curtain, and can assure you that most them would have changed their situation if they could have, as they most certainly did not live as they did, out of choice. Proof of that is simple, as usually the imigrants who come to this land of opportunity will achieve and succeed very nicely. Having immigrated to the US, I see this all the time.
Paul K | |
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| The Zeitgeist Movement
Posted: 3/11/2011 2:58:11 PM | I actually did sit down to watch the two hour Youtube movie. Interesting, and probably a lot of it is true, but in the end, it is just a theoretical approach which has no bearing in the real world. Kind of reminds me of the early 80s - does anybody remember Global 2000 ?
Back then, I was a member of the Green Party in Germany. These were smart people, but very arrogant as well, they sort of thought themselves superior to the rest. I quit the party after proposing to get up very early on Sunday morning and clean up the garbage around a nearby lake. Nobody wanted to come. That same night, I drove home with a chain-smoking lady from that same party, I asked her if she could stop smoking or at least roll down the window because it gave me a severe headache and also I did not want to get lung cancer. Her answer: this is MY car, and I do what I want. Seconds later she hit a rabbit and did not even notice. I suggested to stop, to check if the animal had been killed or was lying there dying. She looked at me and said: you really ARE naive, aren't you ? | |
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