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| | Disproving the existence of a godPage 2 of 7 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) | Fair enough. But the thread isn't about educating theists to keep their god(s) to themselves.
OP your familiar enough with forums that you know an Op’s intent had nothing to do with a person’s viewpoint.
But again, the thread is about the need to disprove the existence of a god, not about determining appropriate forums to display beliefs.
Op don’t you realise your question has already been answered. It appears that mainly those who believe in god feel no need to even participate in this thread while those who would discount that god’s exist feel the need to espouse their viewpoint
It seems odd for each side not to acknowledge that its argument doesn't address the other's points.
Why would they? They are more concerned with pushing their viewpoint and of course this is a subject that has been argued since time immemorial with one difference.
In the past if you didn’t conform to societies beliefs they tended to kill you.
Think about it? How many of our fellow posters would be dead if they had expressed their opinions in the 1400’s. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 5:03:05 AM | "The efforts of various loons to put the Ten Commandments in various public places is always a cause celebre.
Yes, how loony for someone to believe that we should not kill, steal, commit adultery or bear false witness against our neighbor! And Darwin's ideals save us, a commandment against coveting our neighbor's belongings? Why, that's just socialist!"
Ken and Frogo: You entirely miss the point of WHY it isn't okay to put the TC's in a government setting. It has NOTHING to do with their being thought of as BAD IDEAS (don't be ridiculous). It has to do entirely, with the declaration of RELIGIOUS authority over human law. I would not object to a government posting the same list of "don'ts," culled directly from the existing laws of the state, because that would retain legal authority in the hands of the people, and not place it in the hands of unelected religious people.
And why do you think the people pushing for the TC's to be posted want them? It is NOT because they feel that the good ideas therein are being ignored by law, it is entirely because, though they know that these rules are already mostly codified in law, that THEY, as RELIGIOUS people, are not in charge, and they want to be.
Show me a state where murder is legal. Or theft. Or any of the other items on the TC list, save only the entirely RELIGIOUS demands that a certain day be set aside for worship, or that a god be catered to. All of the practical considerations are already prohibited. Unless you want to demand that Judeo-Christianinty be given legal power over everyone, you have no reason to push for the TC's to be put onto the governments' (i.e. all peoples) property. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 5:25:54 AM | OP your familiar enough with forums that you know an Op’s intent had nothing to do with a person’s viewpoint.  It's not about intent, it's about topic. I have a viewpoint on the harvesting of old growth forests, but that has nothing to do with the topic of this forum either.
However this is an excellent example of why such "discussions" or "debates" are often nonproductive.
Why would they? They are more concerned with pushing their viewpoint and of course this is a subject that has been argued since time immemorial with one difference.
In the past if you didn’t conform to societies beliefs they tended to kill you.
Think about it? How many of our fellow posters would be dead if they had expressed their opinions in the 1400’s.
But, if one is going to say that something does exist, it's their job to show the proof, not mine.
I get your point generally, but in this sort of a case it doesn't seem to apply. It is not anyone else's job to convince you that they are correct in their faith (and in fact that behavior is what has so many people up in arms, right?) It is an odd sort of a discussion when one essentially says, "You're wrong. End of story. Prove to me you're not wrong." If I'm making the assertion (that someone else is in error) I need to back up my own assertion. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 8:39:32 AM |
The need to try to disprove the existence of a god fascinates me, and I don't understand why one would be compelled to try to do so.
One should be sensitive to a given situation, but in general I think one should oppose all wrong headed beliefs, not just voodoo superstition magic.
I think the question should be - Why do people stay silent?
Belief in mystical gods and support for organised religion is a pox on civilisation. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 8:59:14 AM | I think the question should be - Why do people stay silent?
maybe they recognize others' inherent right to believe how they want to believe about the ultimate nature of reality even if it's contrary to what you think they should believe.
Belief in mystical gods and support for organised religion is a pox on civilisation.
that would be your opinion and i am sure there are others who share it. in the meantime, how many wayward christian minds have you managed to enlighten with your blunt instrument? i'm betting not many and that your approach only serves to encourage them to hold onto their personal beliefs more firmly for the simple fact that they would prefer to not be more like you. so if your goal is to rid the planet of organized religion and mystical gods then you're going about it in entirely the wrong way. in the meantime, even if you could succeed, the planet would never be lacking for a slightly different but equally insidious kind of mental pox called "they were told to believe, and they believed accordingly", a.k.a. lyingcheatism. lol. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 9:07:53 AM |
one should oppose all wrong headed beliefs
And who should enlighten us as to which ones are "right headed beliefs"? The rabid atheists? | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 9:15:50 AM |
maybe they recognize others' inherent right to believe how they want to believe about the ultimate nature of reality even if it's contrary to what you think they should believe.
Perhaps. But I'm not picky, I oppose, for instance, racist ideology too and gender discrimination, nor am I too keen on extreme right wingers.
That they might think racism, gender discrimination, eugenics, or whatever crackpot theory they ascribe to is part of the "nature of ultimate reality" is of no consequence to me.
Sick ideas are sick ideas. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 9:21:58 AM |
Ken and Frogo: You entirely miss the point of WHY it isn't okay to put the TC's in a government setting.
I didn't miss it at all. Perhaps you didn't read carefully enough. I was pointing out Ken's attempt to pull a fast one with a genetic fallacy. He tried to convince us that commandments as laws are a good thing because they include so obvious laws as "thou shalt not kill". Problem one, those particular laws, while good, are FAR from unique to that set of religious guidelines. Second flaw is that he deliberately omitted those commandments which are of a purely religious nature, hoping to slip those past us when we accept the rest.
Regardless of basic principles against inclusion of religious laws, this is a specific example of laws which might appear good on the surface but have the effect of legislating particular religious views. And this is one of the reasons atheists often argue strongly against religion - because left unwatched and unchecked, there always seems to be someone trying to fool the populace into accepting things that might SOUND nice at first, but which are really one more attempt to push or legislate particular religious views. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 9:48:55 AM | I don't want religion mixed in with my politics either. There are many very good reasons for the separation of church and state.
But you don't have to look very far to see that the atheists go way beyond that position. That may be "one of the reasons", but it doesn't explain the absolute contempt and antaganism repeatedly displayed towards anyone who professes to have a personal belief in God(s). | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 10:13:48 AM | ^^How far should we go? I don’t think atheists need to take a particularly aggressive stance. Religion is coming under scrutiny without an aggressive approach from atheists. Knowledge and morality have, in many respects, already left religion behind, and indifference is largely killing it far sooner than outright atheism.
I thought about this issue very seriously when my father died a few years ago. My family had arranged a "humanist minister" through the funeral home, to speak at the funeral. I spoke with the minister and was quite pleased with her perspective and thought she would give a thoughtful, enlightening, naturalistic, but NON-religious sermon. We discussed my father's viewpoint in particular, and I did specifically mention that my family was not religious, and any discussion of gods or the afterlife would not only be lost on us, but would be offensive.
Well, what did she do? Once installed on the podium with a captive audience, she began discussing various religious themes along with a discussion of souls, heaven etc. Mind you, it was somewhat watered-down, but it was not what was discussed beforehand. We were shocked. I almost stood up and walked out of my father's funeral.
My question is, what is the appropriate response? If a bereaved family cannot get the presentation they ask and pay for on this day, of all days, my father's funeral, how can we expect respect on any other day? If this minister found my request at odds with her belief system, she could have simply declined and I would have hired a motivational-type speaker. But on a day of bereavement, you've still got people pushing their agenda.
This is the type of disrespect that non-believers have tolerated for a long time now. People who complain about atheists pushing back are very much like playground bullies who have had their way for a long time, and suddenly cry "victim" when the victimized turn on them.
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 2:34:07 PM | | Well then Cheshire, why even have a funeral. Why not just have had a private service of sorts for your immediate family members? After all, it wasn't only for YOU, but everybody who honored your father with their presence. Perhaps many of them would have felt comforted by thoughts of heaven. And yet you were so riled up, you almost walked out of your own Father's funeral. It is clear you are dealing with some real issues here in your head. You can not let bygones be bygone. You have to have YOUR WAY. That’s what we mean by saying some atheists feel the need to shove their beliefs down everybody else’s throats. Your own post is supportive of that, and you don’t even get it. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 2:41:53 PM | My understanding of the post was that a secular service was requested and agreed to.
It was the pastor who injected elements that were unwelcome. Cheshire wasn't ramming beliefs down anyone's throats. The absence of religious themes wouldn't be offensive to anyone. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 3:13:39 PM | Jackforyou's post IS an excellent example of exactly what Cheshire was saying: that too many believers, used to hundreds of years in the catbird seat, imagine that anyone who dares to LEAVE OUT their religion, are attacking them.
It reminds me of the many times I've witnessed PRO belief people fantasizing that they are still the tiny group that the Romans put to death by lion attack in the Colosseum, still pretending that they are struggling against tremendous assaults by the powerful, when actually they outnumber their "attackers" by a large margin, and have since Roman Emperor Constantine put THEIR religion in charge of the Empire.
This is very pertinent to this particular thread, because it IS a big reason why some people invest so much in trying to disprove the existence of God (at least as it/he/they/she/etc is described by the powerful believer corps): self defense. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 3:32:28 PM | Wrong Igor, because (1) I am totally against Organized religion and do not believe in a Personal God and (2), I have been agnostic almost all of my life until very recently, partly due to some of the offensive behavior of atheists on this board. My post is evidence that I see two sides to the equation, and I see a person trying to shut down a religious, but secular sermon (I am guessing), that would have been comforting to those who believe or somewhat believe but for some reasin an atheist found offensive. This inability for Atheists to live or let live is appalling. Even in my agnostic days, I was offended by those who brought lawsuits complaining about things like God in the Pledge of Allegiance. I mean, Atheists go all out in their war against religion. Its kind of sad. And, if you don't want religion in a sermon, don't hire a Pastor who believes in God.
My understanding of the post was that a secular service was requested and agreed to.
My guess is the Pastor promised to tone it down, and he apparently did. but you know, asking a Pastor NOT to say something about God at a funeral is kind of ridiculous don't you think?
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 4:28:44 PM | Hey cat
Having buried my father not all that long ago, I wish to tread on this as lightly as humanly possible, and do not wish to cause any more anguish whatsoever........ that having been said, you "hired" a "minister"........ Asking a minister to not say anything in reference to God really doesn't leave them a lot to talk about. In your situation, I would have stood up and walked to the podium and pronounced her part of the proceedings as over.
When the memorial service was being held for my father, we arranged for the pastor at a church he had attended when he was much younger. I spoke with him and gave him a time deadline. When he started to go over his timelimit, I waited until he looked at me, and then pointed to my watch. He got the message. Seeing how my mother was religious, I didn't want to do anything to make her burden any worse.
It is possible that the minister considered what she said as being within the parameters you set out. I am sorry that it happened, as those type of events are never subject to "do-overs", and once ruined, stay that way. It really shouldn't have happened.
Paul K | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 5:50:48 PM | Jack, would it be more appropriate for atheists to just put their deceased parents out on the curb or bury them at sea with some chain and a concrete block?
Seriously, who should the funeral be about if not the family and the deceased?
If people are attending a funeral for their own personal comfort, then they’re there for the wrong reason. You want the bereaved family to provide a service with YOU in mind? Then do them a favour and stay home and go to your own church or sit it out in the parking lot.
This was a private event, not a public sermon on atheism. You don't get to walk in off the street and then get offended and ask for your money back if you don't like the show.
The officiating minister was supposed to be a provincially licensed “SECULAR OFFICIANT,” but she pulled a bit of a bait-n-switch at the last minute. She was a professional speaker, and therefore, it's her responsibility to craft a sermon with the views of the deceased and the family in mind.
Paul /HTD/Igor, and everyone else, I appreciate your understanding and support. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 6:58:37 PM |
This is the type of disrespect that non-believers have tolerated for a long time now. People who complain about atheists pushing back are very much like playground bullies who have had their way for a long time, and suddenly cry "victim" when the victimized turn on them.
She was completely in the wrong, and I am sorry to your family for her insensitivity. Non believers & believers alike are disrespected; disrespect of others is not likely a component of either theism or atheism, rather an individual quality. Being particularly sensitive due to one's feelings about whether or nor God exists may cause someone to see things slightly askew, from what I can see here. It is true that displaying a cross (ex. a necklace on a teacher) is discouraged. At the same time, we have a "push for civil rights" which allows our children to display their "colors" if they are so inclined. Perhaps the backlash of those who do believe in a God is a response to that, rather than what you seem to see as need to "Ram religion" down your throat. It would seem to me that we are focusing on what should be less important, at least when it comes to education in the public schools. When all children can feel safe at school, express their opinions & beliefs without fear of retribution, then we can begin to discuss how "unsafe" it might be to keep "In God We Trust". When all is said & done, there is a difference between tolerance & promotion; both sides cross the line equally. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/25/2011 11:43:53 PM | I believe in God; I just don't trust anyone who works for him. ~Author unknown, from a stand-up comedy routine on television
Church tax exemption means that we all drop our money in the collection boxes, whether we go to church or not and whether we are interested in the church or not. It is systematic and complete robbery, from which none of us escapes. ~E. Haldeman-Julius, The Church Is a Burden, Not a Benefit, In Social Life
Religion supports nobody. It has to be supported. It produces no wheat, no corn; it ploughs no land; it fells no forests. It is a perpetual mendicant. It lives on the labors of others, and then has the arrogance to pretend that it supports the giver. ~Robert G. Ingersoll
http://www.quotegarden.com/religion.html | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/26/2011 4:51:29 AM | The need to try to disprove the existence of a god fascinates me, and I don't understand why one would be compelled to try to do so.
because people become excited by their own thoughts and feel compelled to voice them. how thoroughly they're willing to indulge the urge is the only variable in the equation.
I have no interest in trying to disprove beliefs that differ from my own, so I guess I just can't relate.
that's because you have other thoughts that excite you more, you really can't be bothered with this "disproving the existence of god" stuff.
my own thoughts are along these lines... there are elements of the debate i enjoy and it's interesting to see how other people think, but let's not pretend we're going to change anybody's mind. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/26/2011 7:17:00 AM |
My question is, what is the appropriate response? If a bereaved family cannot get the presentation they ask and pay for on this day, of all days, my father's funeral, how can we expect respect on any other day? If this minister found my request at odds with her belief system, she could have simply declined and I would have hired a motivational-type speaker. But on a day of bereavement, you've still got people pushing their agenda.
That is terrible, terrible situation with your father's funeral, and it was way out of line.
To answer your question, the "correct response" is any response that is directed towards the person who was disrespectful to you.
This is the type of disrespect that non-believers have tolerated for a long time now. People who complain about atheists pushing back are very much like playground bullies who have had their way for a long time, and suddenly cry "victim" when the victimized turn on them.
"Pushing back" onto other random people is not the way to go. It sounds like you've drawn a line in the sand... "they" bully us; "we" push back. Not all theists "bully" you (or anyone else,) and not all atheists "push back." Stereotyping as an excuse to take your frustrations out on strangers (i.e. "pushing back") isn't healthy, and it's a poor excuse to indulge a nasty side.
Take your issue up with that minister or with anyone who gives unsolicited criticism of your beliefs. But don't pretend it gives you license to do the same. Instead, take your own advice... you said the minister should have declined... you could do the same when you come across someone with different beliefs. You don't have to push your own agenda... especially since you know just how badly it can feel to be on the receiving end. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/26/2011 8:18:03 AM |
too many believers, used to hundreds of years in the catbird seat, imagine that anyone who dares to LEAVE OUT their religion, are attacking them.
It is the position of some theists that their right to freedom OF religion is abridged when they are not allowed to violate the rationalists' right to freedom FROM religion. ~James T. Green
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/26/2011 8:18:35 AM | Aside from the reasons given by others with respect the ten commandments and other cultures...
Yes, how loony for someone to believe that we should not kill,
Well, one might at least consider it weird for the government to embrace that particular commandment AND capital punishment (unless there's a footnote in the commandments that lists exceptions).
a commandment against coveting our neighbor's belongings?
Strangely enough, there is no law against coveting another's belongings, wife, or anything else. The law doesn't step in until you actually take your neighbor's belongings.
Why, that's just socialist!
I guess that's covered in the missing 11th commandment.
It is grounds for civil action (ie., divorce) in many US states. You are essentially breaking a licensed contract.
That one is non-starter, since every state in the US now has at least some form of no fault divorce, i.e., one does not need grounds to file for divorce. Precisely what ``licensed contract'' is being broken? Aside from some individual pre-nupital contracts (I'm assuming some of those exist), I don't know of anyone who has signed a contract to get married, much less one that spells out spousal obligations. About the only thing a marriage license requires is a fee. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/26/2011 8:48:22 AM |
Aside from the reasons given by others with respect the ten commandments and other cultures...
But WHICH ten commandments? The 10 we are usually quoted & exposed to are from Exodus 20:1-17.... but the actual phrase "ten commandment" doesn't appear in the Bible until Exodus 34:28. At this time, the commandments given by God were quite different from what is read in Exodus 20. Maybe God ( or Moses) messed up the earlier ones, or perhaps this infallible all-knowing God made a mistake in chapter 20 and decided to correct His blunder in chapter 34.
The only rules actually reffered to as the "ten commandments" are in Exodus 34, and include ( among other commandments)
18The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt
23Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
and
26The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/26/2011 9:13:20 AM | @saharam
Science loves conflict. It's right at the heart of the scientific method. We do not say that since two hypotheses are 99% congruent in their predictions that we should just sit back and accept both. We are always most interested in the 1% that is incompatible and the reasons for incompatibility.
This is important because if god existed, we'd expect that the universe would be quite different than it is. The bible has made predictions about the nature of the universe but we have found that it is a failed (scientific) hypothesis. The fact that there are PEOPLE on the other end of those hypotheses is rather irrelevant to me, as I have very little issue with them personally (unless they show up uninvited in my inbasket with a nasty-gram of course). I don’t assume that theists on boards have any issue with me personally either and if they do, well, it won’t bother me. I’m just as nameless to them as they are to me. But theists often claim that atheists are sub-marginal people and that we have no faith in anything. Do you know how hard it is to have faith in humanity?
My boyfriend is from Iran, where being an atheist includes lack of legal status or even a death sentence in the case of apostasy. You cannot apply for university unless you claim that you are religious. If you treat people differently, then the is a covert or overt attempt to “encourage” people to abandon their beliefs. “Stereotyping,” as you put it, is not the issue, because not all theists or all atheists in the forums are here participating in the “god” threads. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, you don’t have to seek out people with whom to argue, sometimes they will show up spontaneously in your inbasket, some who just want to save your soul, and others who actually want to pick a fight. Because they’re all different, my responses will be different. We’re all here in the fora by mutual agreement and free will, and all that’s required for participation is adherence to forum rules. In fact, without theists here willing to voluntarily argue or debate with me, I’m nothing.
The issues surrounding my father’s funeral are old news – 6 years old now. My mom "pushes back" in her own way too, so she has suggested that when her time comes, we have the funeral in a gay club. I can already see myself drunkenly dancing to ABBA and Lady Gaga with all the smoke and the lights. My mom will love it. | |
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| Disproving the existence of a god
Posted: 4/26/2011 9:57:27 AM | | Why am I reading a lot back and forth about the 10 commandments. According to the title of the thread, this post has as much to do with Jewishim as it does with Zues laws. The 10 commandants where the insane ramblings of a murdering hypocrite. I wouldn't drop change on Moses on the street, and he would probably go after my first born because of it. Is that the person you want to base morality on? The guy talked to plants, there is nothing more to say. | |
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