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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/15/2004 9:40:05 PM | | oh... dragonn... that copy & paste job was from the 1st page that popped up from that link you listed. it does clearly state that capitol punishment does cost considerably more than life in prison without the possibility of perole. and the table they provided shows, in some areas, the hundreds of thousands of dollars difference between the two sentences. so, yes... i'd say you're very right in saying the truth does eventually come out. ;) | |
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Posted: 12/16/2004 5:50:41 AM | Deterants Work!
And so does the Death Penalty or Incarceration. The question is, how well does each work, and on what Basis?
In many Middle Eastern countries, if you steal something, they cut off fingers or hands and is a far better Deterant than 500 Hours of Community Work & Probation.
Likewise, Public flogging for crimes such as Fraud & Assault works far better as a Deterant than 30 Days in Jail & a $ 1,000 fine.
In yet other Quarters such as Indonesia, the Death Penalty applies for any trafficking, cultivating, importing, selling, or trading of controlled Drugs or their Chemical Precursors. The Philipines has just recently enacted a similar set of Penalties for hard Drugs because approx. 10% of the Youth Population is addicted to them. Research had shown that these Deterants DO work in Indonesia & other Countries to enforce their Laws.
As such, I also believe Lives are saved because Capital Punishment deters heinous Crimes. What the Dollar in Savings are, is obviously not known, but if the above references serve as an Example, it would have to be quite substantial in the long run.
There may also be another Drawback to permanent Incarceration; its completely pointless & useless - it does nothing except keep someone physically alive for a long time - solves nothing, resolves nothing, and doesn't put an end to something and has no constructive Purpose whatsoever.
What's the Point of locking someone up until the Day they Die?
The Electric Chair Works! Get it done & over with ASAP! | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 12:35:46 AM | hey ticket... you said "There may also be another Drawback to permanent Incarceration; its completely pointless & useless - it does nothing except keep someone physically alive for a long time - solves nothing, resolves nothing, and doesn't put an end to something and has no constructive Purpose whatsoever."
i have to be honest with you... i never thought of life imprisionment like that and i have to say... that's definitely a thought to ponder. unless of course they are doing life in, i think it's louisiana that has that huge farm that they make the prisioners tend to in order to generate revenue for the town it's in. but then of course, that means that the prisioner would be able to get out and still see the world... so dangit... i'm back at square one.
but i'm really glad that i have an open mind because i've always been staunchly against the death penalty and reading some of the opinion in this forum has helped me to see things from a totally different perspective... i could see myself changing my mind on this issue if i dig a little deaper. i guess that's my way of sayin' thanks for saying the right things ;) | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 3:34:15 PM | Phil's 2cents
When we become perfect of any error possible, then and only then, should we put
others to death. Now is that oxymoronic or what. If we were perfect,. killing of any type would not exist. What if, just what if, if Scott Peterson were in truth actually only a victum
of circumstantial evidence. And what if this came to light after we killed him. Extremely unlikely....but......what if.....
Scott, in my opinion deserves to be killed a minimum of 2 times. Advances in medicine in
some future utopia (?? some utopia eh??) may very well make it so we could resusitate him
and bring him back for a second killing. Now for appropiate effect we need to delay the second killing so he has ample thinking time about his impending death.
He may go out of his mind if we keep doing this. Then we'll have to provide services to bring him back to sanity so we could kill him again. ( Aint civilization great bye,bye,Scott.)
If you want Scott to suffer most give him a irreversible, no hope whatsoever, life sentence.
When it is without any hope, his life becomes barren except for any self redemption he may give himself. In death row he is too caught up in his own lies to himself as a survival instinct
as he pursues the HOPE that lies in appeals. His suffering in death row is much less.
The other prisioners in a life sentence will get him anyway. He'll always be watching his back.
But in death row he is too well protected.
Remember, you heard it here first. The judge will NOT sentence him to death.
Phil's done | |
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Roaul
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Joined: 4/14/2004
Msg: 246 | |
| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/18/2004 3:51:08 PM | thewoman who just murdered that woman for the unborn child is a prime example why the death penalty is justifyed she deserves to die by the most painful way she can.i wish we had the death penalty here in england reports are it cost 1000.($1500-$1750 per week to keep a criminal in jail,what a waste of tax payers money.
murderers should die.
pheads.should die.
someone who attacks an old person should be flogged
burgulars should have thei hand cut off.
yes i do agree with the middle est ways of preventing crime.the fact is if you dont want to pay for it dont commit it. | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 4:20:30 PM | Thanks, Kitty.
Where there is irrefutable Proof of a Crime of such a Nature where the Offender would see nothing but Incarceration for the Remainder of his Natural Life, also taking into Consideration all legal Avenues for Appeals are closed, then we might as well say, that where such Circumstances exist, let's proceed with the Death Penalty.
And I believe that has pretty well been the Basis for Executions in the U.S. since Time immemorial. | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 4:26:01 PM | Sometimes you have to shoot your own horse, put down your dog... it is the way of life...
The death penalty should be upheld, I do not want an offender worthy of such to suffer more than what it takes to put him out of our misery (say, 7 or 8 days for the worst offenders... Ant hill with honey?)
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/18/2004 6:10:28 PM | Personally I prefer penal colonies over the death penalty. Make them work hard for a living with steel weights around their ankles..
The ones in Kingston, Ontario make license plates. | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 6:23:39 PM | | The one's in Kingston, or anywhere else for that matter, do not produce enough to pay the Expenses of their Room & Board. Justice is such a Joke in Canada. | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 6:24:18 PM | At the cost of knowing that a loved one, friend, child, father, mother, sister or brother is irretrievably dead/mained/emotionally destroyed/marred for the rest of their lives...
And this ANIMAL is allowed ---
3 squares where so many starve,
a good job that someone far more deserving could be doing thereby earning a living for THEIR loved ones,
a roof over their head, that far too many do not have,
free medical for live when far too many cannot afford it and do not have it,
in many instances free cable where some have not even a tv,
free reading material when so many cannot read,
free clothing when many have rags to wear,
hot showers and other toiletry when so many do not...
and the list goes on...
Life imprisonment is a sham and an insult to all those that money could go to truly help, an intolerable drain on society that has much more earnest needs.
Given the figures on here, even with perhaps only a couple hundred on death row, I can think of MANY much better way to use that money than to support a deseared, deranged, mad dog for the rest of their lives period...
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 6:34:26 PM | | ^^^^ You are quite right. Inmates are too well treated. This brings to mind Paul Bernardo. Freaking guy lives like a king and protected from other inmates. | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 6:44:25 PM | Further, I would like to add that life imprisonment is an insult, with injury to every single working man and woman in the world that struggles, sacrifices and does without on a daily basis to provide for themselves and their families and loved ones. While we are out there, racking our brains, learning what we need to, striving to make a living, better ourselves, while these sick ****** ****** ***** ***** ***** ***** animals are allowed to live, live well and enjoy many things that we cannot.... Shall I recite?
The poor working single mom, minimum wage, struggling to work, raise a child, perhaps get a further education so that she can work better, will in many cases need to rely on the kindness of strangers and charitable organizations to give her child a nice christmas, or in many cases a good christmas meal... and yet... these poor people have taxes taken out of their HARD earned wages to support those animals...
Sorry... pushed a button there... Merry Christmas... But do light a candle for the poor and under priveledged out there on the day, and remember them in your thoughts, if have some, give some... make a strangers day brighter...
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 7:42:40 PM | Sadly... too many do not understand, and miss the fact that the fundamental premise of the Judicial system in the US is Law... Not Justice... Justice is not mentioned in the tenants. Which is why there is such inequity in the states...
I will never condone a system that allows mad and diseased animals to live, while making the victims pay for their lives with their money, their emotions for the rest of their lives too...
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 9:22:25 PM | A few points:
First, let's talk about the supposition put forth that prisons should be reform houses. That depends on the crime committed. If we're talking petty crimes, such as theft and other nonviolent misdemeanors, sure- rehabilitation is very possible, and should be attempted.
On the other hand, if we're talking about a violent criminal, like a pedophile/rapist/murderer, chances are such a piece of slime never will be rehabilitated- you're wasting time and resources. There have been a number of cases where those convicted of such crimes have come right out and said they would commit the same crimes again if released, and recently there was one in the news where that's exactly what someone did: repeated the crime within months after release. Once you cross that line- and especially if you commit the same violent crimes over and over-, your chances of being rehabilitated are extremely slim. In such cases, it's better not to risk the safety of innocent people by letting such criminals back out into the public. Also, it's not justice simply to keep them in cages, give them 3 hot meals a day and shelter while their victims are dead, and their families are grieving.
I firmly believe in the code of Hammurabi- 'an eye for an eye'. These days it seems that no one takes accountability for their actions. That's a societal problem here in America: the blame game is rampant, and you always hear excuses being made. Then, you see that even hard-core felons aren't punished like they should be, which almost amounts to tacit approval for their misdeeds. I've heard that some gangs even see it as some sort of badge of honor to murder innocent people, and to be in prison. Are you going to tell me that someone with that mentality shouldn't be executed? If the death penalty is used like it should be- reserved for the worst of the worst and carried out when the sentence is handed down- it is a very effective deterrent.
Along the lines of mentality, perhaps this sounds cruel, but I don't care if a murderer or rapist is found to be insane: we still don't need such a person in society. Insanity never should be made into a license to kill, which seems to be what happened. Same with those stupid, ultra-religious freaks that claim 'God made me kill'. How many times have we heard that from a mother that killed her own children? Well, in those cases, that so-called rationale should be turned around and used on them.
Then, there's the damage to those the victims leave behind because some slimeball stole their lives. What about the families of the victims? Don't they deserve retribution in kind? How would you feel if your child, or your wife, or your husband, or your sibling, or your friend or your parent was murdered? Would you think it was justice if the murderer served 15 years in prison, then walked out of jail? Worse, what if another innocent person lost his/her life because that piece of s*** schmoozed the parole board, got out and went back to his old ways? Prison time for murder- especially mass murder, like the DC sniper- is not justice. Not even close to it.
With the advances in DNA technology we have today, there is no reason why we shouldn't feel confident that once someone is convicted of a capital crime, which I believe should include rape- especially in the case of pedophiles-, that person is rightfully guilty. There's no question we had problems with the administration of the death penalty in the past, but those advances should remove the element of doubt. The time between sentence and execution should be no more than 3 years, and there should be only one mandatory appeal in which all potential issues are addressed and resolved, one way or the other. That's why you hear it said that it's more expensive to execute someone than keep him/her in jail for life: with all the appeals these lawyers make, a lot of money is thrown away, usually at taxpayer expense. I agree that the wealthy have an unfair advantage in our legal system; we've seen many examples of socialites and celebrities getting away with murder. That must stop, and if I had my way, it WOULD stop. That's where I stand. Thoughts, anyone? | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/18/2004 10:02:48 PM | A murderer DESERVES to die. There is no denying that...
However, there are many problems determining who the murderer is. There isn't one type of evidence that can't be tampered with. NO evidence is foolproof. The marks left on a bullet by the rifling in the barrel are only unique to a certain degree. They'll use six (or more) points of reference which ensure a low rate of fallibility but there are bullets with the same marks. Same with fingerprints. The FBI itself released a report recently that said the way it compares figerprints there is a 3 in 410 or something possibility of error. DNA evidence can be taken from a suspect and then used to "paint" the scene of a crime, which is what happened at the OJ crime scene.
This world, the governments and the legal authorities are too corrupt in this world to be trusted with life or death of a suspect.
The death penalty serves the rage of victims families, but too often innocent people are killed for crimes they didn't commit. | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 10:11:08 PM | | DragonRider: I am with you. I have no interest in feeding people that are beyond the shadow of a doubt guilty of terrible crimes. Like that evil witch who cut the baby from that young mother. I am angry and think that she should die and be as frightened about it as that poor mother that she tortured. I know that I am horrible for feeling that way. Pray for me please! I can't help it though. I hate when people do such things to others. | |
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Posted: 12/18/2004 10:17:11 PM | Caroline - Thank you for your backing, tis merely the way I believe, the things you talk about sicken me too, one of the reasons I quit reading the newspaper.... To my lights when she was found (I believe in the act ) the matter of trial should never have even been raised... but that is merely me...
But what angers me more is the bleeding hearts that have not the stomach for summary justice, content with platitudes of punishment, without ever seeing or realizing how this "punishment" is a drain on us all...
Worse, when you point out all the inequities of this "punishment", as I did earlier, they still maintain that they are seeing "justice" done by allowing these vermin to survive and thrive in their contempt for humans...
You are sweet...
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/18/2004 10:35:40 PM | DR: but if you GIVE anyone in society the right to make on the spot judgements without showing everyone else, then you're ALSO giving that person or group, the power to kill indiscriminately.
I'm no "bleeding heart", but if you READ about how many people have had to be set free in the last several years because DNA evidence PROVED they couldn't have committed the crime after they were (nonetheless) convicted of murder and sentenced to the death penalty in a court of law BEYOND A "SHADOW OF A DOUBT", then you'd have alot better perspective on this. You couldn't possibly have read about this yet, or you wouldn't have the opinion you currently have.
check this out:
http://innocenceproject.org/dnanews/index.php | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/18/2004 10:54:40 PM | Elwood... Is there a potential for innocents to be caught up in this? There are always casualties in war, and if you don't think this is a war, you would be wrong. This is most indeed a war. If you read my previous posts, you know that I have stated that giving a reasonable time for redress is fine. 17 years is NOT reasonable.
As for giving a group the power do kill indescriminately, I don't remember suggesting that... I do remember saying that if one of these scum is caught in the act that I see no need to burden the already over burdened legal system proving they are guilty.
Do I know that some have been proven innocent and released? Yes, I am aware of this, am I 100% sure that all were justified.... Nope... as was said... evidence can be tampered, I don't know either way.
I DO KNOW that letting these animals have a life that a significant portion of our population is denied because they commited a crime is a travesty, and an insult to the victims.
As I said, this is a war, a war for the preservation of life and our society, all societies, it is a very odd war, and innocents are the targets of predatory animals. In any war, there is a concept called acceptable loss, we are fighting for our lives, for our very freedom and the freedom of our children. The freedom of being slaves to criminals and degenerates that have aborted their right to live.
I am sorry you thought I was personally attacking you...
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/19/2004 7:23:39 AM | DR: Never thought you were attacking me. Your opinions are generally reasonable and I always feel you're arguing about the quality of life and not on some personal agenda like some others here; however, we are both human beings and have more than enough potential to do this... :-)
Let us imagine this then as a "war" against an unseen enemy...unseen that is, if we as a society have not proved the person guilty in a court of law...
Let's compare our war here with Iraq.
Now, if there were a way to avoid collateral damages there, wouldn't we do it?
Of course we would!
Collateral damages is the emotional fuel that serves as a recruiting tool for insurgents. Insurgents can always point to the deaths of innocents and use it as evidence that WE are the ones making trouble. This doesn't end the war. In fact, it keeps the war going...
So it also is that collateral damages is the fuel that keeps the criminal class going. They can point to collateral damages as evidence the whole system is corrupt and say that people of certain minority races or those who come from impoverished backgrounds don't have a chance to succeed without going outside the law. If you don't think this is how small children or teenagers are recruited to run drugs or play a big part in criminal culture: think again.
It's usually a rule that the more collateral damages there are, the higher the crime rates go up. One big misstep can light a fuse for billions of dollars in property damage and tens or hundreds of lives being lost where no criminals are ever caught. I'm talking riots like in Los Angeles after the King incident and all over the US in the Civil Rights era.
If we have forensic, circumstancial and/or eyewitness testimony that a person has committed a crime, then the government should be required to show it and have it approved before administering punishment against anyone, in any case; EXCEPT in the case where someone was actually in the act of committing a crime and even then the evidence should be presented and closely scrutinized.
As in Iraq, to charge in like a bull in a China shop, ignoring all the social consequences is not the way to solve the problem. We should be totally transparent in our purpose and be able to logically defend our position lest we should turn a large part of the world against us and fail in doing what we are doing for a good cause. | |
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Posted: 12/19/2004 11:22:03 AM | Elwood - I do truly understand your point, really. I am not espousing vigilante justice in any form, In the act means just that, it always would require an administrative review and close monitoring, but it is a plain and simple fact that there is a ton of crime that goes on simply because the perpetrators know that even if caught, they are likely to get away with it, and if they go to jail, oh well, 3 squares and a roof.
Please note, on the death penalty, I did and do advocate a reasonable time for appeal and redress. I simply object to sentences of life without parole, or death sentences that are the logical equivalent simply because they can appeal the system to death...
I realize that collateral damage puts things in a poor light, and we as a society should and must do all we can to minimize such. I do not think there is a way, in any war, to eliminate this completely, hence the concept of acceptable loss. However the is a point beyond which we should say... no more, lest we loose our integrity and focus of purpose and add to our shame.
In this matter, I feel that our purpose is totally transparent, and we have the defense of our position. These entities have earned their sentence, they have been weighed in the balance and found unworthy, let their and our misery be at an end.
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/19/2004 1:08:03 PM | DR: Sorry... guess I misread your position on some of this.
What I'm concerned about is that many states aren't allowing DNA testing at this point. The problem with that is that MORE than half the death row inmates in Indiana had to be set free last year because DNA evidence found them not guilty!
Pity 187 people executed during George Bush's administration in Texas. Wonder how many of them were innocent or had their cases reviewed with DNA samples of evidence (hair particles, blood and like articles) being reviewed?
How could a state like Indiana be wrong more than half the time and a state like Texas be right EVERY TIME?
Think of how we or our families would feel if it was us?
Now DNA COULD potentially be distorted to help the defense, but if it's in the hands of the prosecution and going through the prosecution's hands before trial, we should assume that's usually unlikely to happen... right?
Even then, in some cases where DNA has been used as evidence, traces of preservative have been found in the blood found at the scene of the crime. Truth: it's much more likely to be abused in favor of the prosecution.
What's a reasonable length of time for a case to have it's appeals exhausted?
What's a reasonable length of time for a case to have it's appeals HEARD?
Many people who complain about today's standards of evidence should see "The Man Who Wasn't There" with Billy Bob... which tells about the court system before they had forensic evidence.. not even fingerprints....
Imagine how big the collateral damage of law enforcement was then. You'd probably be right! | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/19/2004 1:44:29 PM | Elwood -- I distrust assumptions on either side...
As for reasonable... My personal feelings and opinions are that 5 years from sentence date should be more than sufficient time to attempt an appeal. TIme to hear? No more than a year. Remember the premise, reasonable doubt, I submit that this time would be sufficient for reasonable doubt to surface.
The things in Indiana... I find very suspect, personally I always felt that there was much more going on there than we knew... Was Texas right in EVERY instance? Don't know, and I know this may sound callous, but time ran out. As in real life, all things come to an end, the universe has no reprieve, no escape. The best we can do is to continue to try.
My family would be saddened were I to be wrongly accused and summarily executed for a crime. Causalties of war... never pretty, rarely nice... it happens. The sad truth is, if something is not done, and done soon, where the american people are ready to take a stand and say ENOUGH, NO MORE, things will simply get worse. The percentages crawl downward, however most do not take into account the rise in population And further the sad truth is, we all risk death or worse daily by simply stepping out our doors, the animals could take us at any time. Putting faith in a stern judicial system seems to me to be no greater risk.
What can I say.... to insure our freedoms, our safety and our sanity, we must remember our strengths and regain our resolve, all of us, every man, woman and child in the US...
Merry Christmas all...
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/19/2004 4:03:21 PM | | I really wonder.....If the death penalty is such a deterrent how would one explain Scott's behavior to Laci's parents? | |
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Posted: 12/19/2004 4:08:28 PM | That is the real problem, as practiced today, it is hardly a deterrent.... Kill someone, live a life without responsibility or want for the rest of your life... where is the fear?
~~Dragon Rider~~
Tease not the Dragon, for you are tender and tasty, and better with strawberries | |
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