yna6
|
Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 76 | |
| sorry-
Posted: 11/15/2004 5:29:18 PM | Ah...but what of those who are guilty? I mean proven, without a doubt guilty? DNA, confessions, other evidence, the works? Do we do away with these guys? Why even let them appeal ANY sentancing? Far cheaper to just do away with them. Safer for the general public too. Think about it. WHAT if a murderer escapes prison afetr recieving a "life sentance" I mean a WHOLE life sentance. What has he got to lose? Nothing....so he makes his way to a country without extradiction agreements, and Lord help anyone on the way, cause he doesn't care. What are we gonna do? Lock him up again for life? Been DONE already.....
It can be far cheaper to kill off these guys. They have no repect for their victims lives...and probably little respect for anyone elses. Anyone who is against the death penalty should be forced to do a two week "tour of duty" guarding these criminals every year, thereby cutting the costs to the taxpayer....and if they DO escape...guess who their first victim would probably be? That might change a lot of the liberal attitudes I see here. | |
|
| sorry-
Posted: 11/15/2004 6:01:38 PM | Too bad I'm not a smart as GC....it seems like he somehow has a catalogue of perfect information, an almost god-like omniscience that allows him to to be Judge and Jury (I bet he'd sign up to be executioner too) in every case across America. Man, to be as smart as that... I'd probably make a bundle in the stock market too!
Or maybe he just dosen't have the ability to distinguish between black and white, or lacks the intelectual ability to delve too deeply into cases, preferring to paint everything with a broad brush. Is it that in his world, there are no mitigating factors? What about someone who shoots a dead body GC, fully meaning to kill the already dead (unbeknownst to him) victim? Does that person deserve the death penalty? Does the person indoctrinated by military service and let loose in Afghanistan deserve the death penalty when his attack misses the mark? Does a killer who may or may not have killed in his sleep, or the person pushed into a syndrome similar to post traumatic stress disorder who kills their spouse after years of abuse? I dont know the answer to the questions, and further I doubt the best jury's ability to determine the answers... so how can you advocate a position that cannot be retracted once completed?
As to respecting the victims lives argument posted by Ynaq, I just hope you would hold your governemnt to a higher standard than you would hold those who kill. After 5,000 years of written history, can we not as a society move beyond Hammurabi's code? Is our governemnt to act with the same motivations as the killers we attempt to punish? This position is morally indefensible, and relies soley on the argument that humanity is able to dispense PERFECT JUSTICE in every single instance. As all the lawyers I know scoff at the idea that the US system dispenses justice, I found this a highly doubtful conclusion... | |
|
yna6
|
Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 78 | |
| sorry-
Posted: 11/15/2004 6:36:49 PM | No...I am not dissillusioned enough to hold my gov't to a higher standard....I can't, nor can anyone else. Gov't is usually two steps behind society anyways.
The whole point was to rid society of a burden of holding these guys in prison at the taxpayers expense, when it would be SO much easier to buy a rope at Walmart for 5 bucks and end their shenanigans. Guys like Clifford Olsen...Paul Bernardo....absolutly NO doubt as to their guilt, so WHY are they even living?? I wanted to open the eyes of the liberal minded types as to just what potential dangers these guys actually are to the general public, and their guards even when locked up for now! Please tell me these guys are worth the hundreds of thousands it takes to keep them in prisons. Is a life worth this money? Then maybe they should PAY the victims families.
No...justice is NOT perfect....but when it becomes "perfectly acceptable" to house this type of monster for the reat of their natural lives, over the working poor and homeless, then I DO take offense. | |
|
| sorry-
Posted: 11/15/2004 6:43:24 PM | | hangings are very violent. No one deserves to die that way. | |
|
yna6
|
Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 80 | |
| sorry-
Posted: 11/15/2004 6:53:41 PM | | Think it would act as a deterrent...doing the "Danny Dee" at the end of a rope is NOT a good thing to have happen to you....scare the crap out of would-be criminals...a powerful deterrent... | |
|
| re-read the post above
Posted: 11/15/2004 6:57:19 PM | You miss the point... Even in cases where guilt has been established by as vaunted a judge as pubilc opinion, at what point do we draw the line? Do we agree that government cannt be an infallible arbiter? Ok, so at what point is the line drawn, ynaq? Because, of course, we can't just ask you whether or not it's obvious that an individual bears enough culpability to merit capital punishment, ususally you need to define those things with criminal statutes, if only to allow potential criminals to understand the consequences of their actions. I have as much sympathy as anyone fortunate enough not to have lost a loved one through an act of violence can be, but in our imperfect world, it is better to err on the side of caution than to commit a horrific mistake that can never be rectified. Yes, it ties the hands of law enforcement and the dubiously named justice system, but until you can show me a foolproof method, you must admit that the costs outweight the benefits of the limited justice one may assert on earth. Accepting those limitations and creating a way to work around them is the only option available until humanity attains perfection in judgement... and that seems to be a long way away.
Oh yeah, and as far as the cost thing that was mentioned again, the study that Paddler cited was correct. There is a net savings for keeping a prisioner interred for life as opposed to killing him. Im not sure how successful you would be at lobbying your representative to distribute some of that money to the victims family, but I encourage you to try. | |
|
| re-read the post above
Posted: 11/15/2004 7:01:48 PM | If i had to choose...... A handgun in the back of the head.
But i don't agree with the death penalthy. I think life in prison is enough for those who deserves it.
Many who go to jail don't deserve it
But many who have not deserve to go
Tis just weird. I think the law system is flawed. | |
|
| re-read the post above
Posted: 11/15/2004 7:04:04 PM | | but with the death penalty they have no chance at getting back into society and commiting the crime again. a good way to fix the system is for "life in prison" to actually mean just that- LIFE. | |
|
| re-read the post above
Posted: 11/15/2004 7:06:09 PM | | simply no spiff. Just better security. Theres also not that many that excape from prison. Its actually very rare and the cases when they are let off by legal means i tend to agree with. | |
|
| re-read the post above
Posted: 11/15/2004 7:35:58 PM | | i'm not talking about escapes. good behavior for cooking in the prisons kitchen doesn't entitle someone to be let back out into society. murderers being let off because of a technichality because a police officer didn't file evidence "correctly" because he forgot to date a paper. murderers being let off because they think 10 years is long enough for someone that raped and killed children and they learned their leason. the only thing you're saying by letting people off is that it's ok. it's not helping to prevent the problem. | |
|
yna6
|
Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 86 | |
| re-read the post above
Posted: 11/16/2004 11:08:22 AM | I can see that the gov't does need to "draw a line" in this issue...and they have here in Canada. No death penalty...no deportation of someone who may be facing the death penalty. Ok...something I have to go along with, even if I don't agree with it.
I was speaking about death penalty for those who are guilty beyond doubt....and gave two examples. The costs?? Cut the "red tape"....no appeals, etc, and there goes the arguement that it costs too much to kill these people. Simple, isn't it??
So...if no death penalty, sentences not long enough...what do we do?
Public administration of punishment acts as a deterrent in some countries....I cite Phillipines as an example, where public caning is used. (Now the way these guys do it...I am not about to comment on...)BUT....when young people watch this humiliating thing being done, it makes them think twice before flaunting the laws. Nobody wants to be held up for public ridicule. Perhaps holding criminals up for public ridicule is an answer. (I am not condoning public caning...but there could well be some other form of punishment.) They get to hide in relative anonymity during their sentences. Perhaps they should NOT be allowed to. I dunno...hang a sign on 'em saying "rapist" or "thief" as they are walked through the streets? Post pictures on store wondows of known shop-lifters with a notation saying "These people are NOT allowed in here because of their thieving tendancies." It doesn't restrict the criminal from going elsewhere...and he KNOWS that others will be more watchful of him too. He may genuinely change his ways...and become the better person for it. And, perhaps, raise his kids in a manner so they do NOT follow his footsteps.
It seems it all starts small...then snowballs. Petty theft...to worse....some stop, some don't. Not in all cases, but a lot of them. Make the punishment so miserable for small things that they don't want to even try anything larger...it could work. | |
|
hk165
|
Joined: 11/14/2004
Msg: 87 | |
| Death Penalty
Posted: 11/16/2004 2:35:50 PM | I have 4 words for all those that believe in the death penalty: "Thow Shalt Not Kill"!! Thgis great country was founded on Christian beliefs. One of which is the 10 commandments. Besides when did God give us the power over life and death? I know alot of criminals like Scott Peterson should die for what he did but the way I see it let the inmates do it not the state of Califonia. Bill | |
|
| Death Penalty
Posted: 11/16/2004 2:51:34 PM | exactly, "thou shalt not kill". basically, if you kill someone, we'll kill you back :)
that was put pretty blunt. i just don't feel like restating my stand on this. you have to remember hk165, there's a seperation of church and state. technically the state shouldn't have to recognize that....... i think. who knows anymore. | |
|
| as far as deterrents...
Posted: 11/16/2004 3:05:13 PM | Deterrents only work when when the alleged makes a conscious, rational decision to break the law. A deterrent will only influce decisions made by an actor who considers not only the immediate, but also the future consequences of their actions. However, most (of the US, at least) crimes dont even require that a person act with knowledge or intent. If you examine that closely, you will see that one can be guilty of an act without even being fully aware that he is acting... This is the case with crimes such as 2nd degree murder or even some cases of 1st degree murder. So when you have an actor who is not aware his actions will cause or would be likely to cause the murderous results, deterrence has no value at all.
Your hanging a sign over someone's head would, I think, be similarly inneffective. It didn't work in Hester Prynne's days and while it may serve some purpose allowing society to feel good that it is punishing someone for a crime, it won't really due to much to either help the criminal (for who else needs the help of government more?) nor solve the problem. People have been breaking laws since laws were invented, and despite the harshest penalties (there were over 200 seperate crimes that merited the death penalty, ranging from petty theft to hunting in a restricted area) there has never been a society without crime. The focus needs to move from punishment to rehabilitiation, despite the understandable desire most have to see criminal's punished, we must realize that punishment is (as evidenced by 5,000 years of inneffective criminal policy) a tempting but ultimately incorrect option.... | |
|
| as far as deterrents...
Posted: 11/16/2004 3:09:45 PM | | so you're saying punishment doesn't work? okay, let's go ahead and let everyone out of prison then. let me get this straight, you're against the death penalty and you're against punishment all together? so you're saying we should all run around and do whatever we want? living in an anarchy would be the solution? | |
|
| as far as deterrents...
Posted: 11/16/2004 3:23:58 PM | | interesting interpretation...but, no I belive there are plenty of other reasons to jail criminals, but that we need to re-evaluate our motivations behind our criminal policy. One of the most useful aspects of incarceration is the incapacitative effect it has: Jail isolates the criminal from society, thus insulating it from the effects of crime and protecting society from criminal acts. However, prision environments are often simply breeding grounds for criminal behavior due to the inhuman conditions inside prisions, so our current system unfortunately only has the effect of delaying criminal behavior, rather than stopping it. Recidivism rates are tremendously high in the US justice system (around 65%) and should suffice as evidence that the system is flawed... the only question is how to fix it... | |
|
| as far as deterrents...
Posted: 11/16/2004 3:33:51 PM |
However, prision environments are often simply breeding grounds for criminal behavior due to the inhuman conditions inside prisions
i agree in some cases with that. i agree with you that justice in this country doesn't always make a lot of sense. we're too focused on the small things like people being busted for having a nickle bag of weed, people bouncing checks and stupid sh*t like that and we don't focus enough on the bigger problems like murderers and rapists. that's why jails are being filled so quickly.
however i don't think it delays criminal behavior. it's a deterrent for other criminals because it proves there are consiquences for their wrong-doing. if there are no severe consiquences for major criminals it only proves that other criminals could get away with that crime. | |
|
| as far as deterrents...
Posted: 11/16/2004 3:53:51 PM | The real punishment for criminals is one that could never be meted out by another person. Read Dostoyevsky's "Criime and Punishment" for an enlightening exploration about the real costs of a criminal act... Imagine for a moment having a criminal act on your conscience and imagince what a weight it would put on your every act... Punishment by society is nowhere near as dehabilitating as the cross each criminal has to bear on themselves and this is the only real punishment possible. Remember Richard lovelace:
"Stone walls do not a prision make, nor iron bars a cage" (to Althea, from prison)
or Shakespere in Julius Ceaser:
" Nor stony tower, nor walls of beaten brass, Nor airless dungeon, nor strong links of iron, Can be retentive to the strength of spirit; But life, being weary of these worldly bars, Never lacks power to dismiss itself" | |
|
| as far as deterrents...
Posted: 11/16/2004 3:58:00 PM | | unfortunatley tolstoy, there are criminals out there that don't have a conscience. anyone who can kill another human being intentionaly has proven they are heartless and incapable of understanding the value of a human life. | |
|
| |
yna6
|
Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 96 | |
| Dear God are we actually considering cost in the same sentance as the Death Penalty?
Posted: 11/16/2004 11:37:09 PM | Let's not forget...you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger....what is your intent? Either you hit the target or miss...the INTENT was to hit it...a miss, which kills someone else instead is just as bad in my book.
To those who cry "Thou shalt not kill."....Bible forbids just certain killings, and also demands for society to inflict the death penalty for certain crimes. It is wuite specific about what kind of killings are allowed, and sanctified by God himself.
In earlier times, exposure in the stocks was a huge detterent to petty criminal acts. Parents would show their children this and tell them "Think before you act or THIS could be you." I saw a show where they take inner city kids to the morgue and show them the bodies of gang members...telling them "just another piece of meat now...." and things like that. Scared the hell out of many of them. So...if by SHOWING the kids what could happen can scare them ebough to think twice, might this not be a far better thing than hiding punishments away? | |
|
| Dear God are we actually considering cost in the same sentance as the Death Penalty?
Posted: 11/17/2004 12:25:33 AM | Yeah but what if you dont know the gun is loaded? What if you fully belived that (having removed the clip) the gun was unloaded? Most people dont understand that there may be a bullet in the chamber after the clip is removed... Do you have intent to kill then, or is it intent to scare? Is it just intent to show off? And you correctly identify the doctrine of transferred intent in the above case (about missing and hitting someone else), did I bring up that point? My bad if I did, I write most of these posts late at night...
Any use of the bible to justify the death penalty goes much too far in my opinion. Jesus spent his entire life preaching love of ones brother and forgiveness of sins. Capital punishment is the ultimately un-forgiving act. Remember that God says "Vengance is Mine" and that's as far as you need to explore biblical references to capital punishment. We cannot, and according to the bible, should nto, mete out vengance
And again with deterrence, did the quakers have a crime-free society? No, so their acts of deterrence failed to fulfill their puppose. All that deterrents such as the public embarrassment of holding a person in stocks really do is satisfy the public's desire to feel sanctimonious in the guilt (established or not) of the alleged. They allow society to differentiate between criminal and non-criminal, without adressing the root problem: that were all have, and always will have, the roots of criminal behavior in all of us. It's simply a matter of situation and circumstance.
Further, even if stocks did have some function as a deterrent, we are talking about capital punishment, not minor public humiliation. Deterrence of petty crime, even if it did work (which evidence denies) is not analgous to deterrence of major (felonious) crime, and cant be compared. And as scared (and scarred) as many of the kids taken to see the shocking sight of dead bodies would be, it is doubtful that simply being exposed them to death would lead to any significant result you would want. Just showing kids what could happen does little until they can understand on a personal level what death means and how it applies to them. This is something that no-one has been able to understand to any degree of certainity, because once you expeirence it, its a bit to late to explain... For an illuminating treatment of this topic, read Tolstoy's (the real one) The Death Of Ivan Illych. | |
|
yna6
|
Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 98 | |
| Dear God are we actually considering cost in the same sentance as the Death Penalty?
Posted: 11/17/2004 12:44:10 AM | One thing I did not mention about that morgue thing...they arranged to have the body of someone they knew from their neighbourhood there at that time....kinda shocked them...
God did say "Vengeance is mine..."so we send them to him just for that purpose, just a little sooner than He expected. Jesus did spend his time teaching about love and compassion. He said many things that seemed to go right against what God had said. God told people how to punish others....Jesus said "forgive them..." Just like any rebelious kid huh? jk.
There has been a small theory about the 3 R's....retribution, restitution, and rehabilitation. I don't know a lot about this one....except for a small example I was presented with. Drunk driver hits someone and takes off, leaving a wounded person there for 20 minutes before help gets there. Guy gets caught.
He is held down on the road and run over, left to lie there for 20 minutes with broken legs. then all the medical attention he needs is supplied. He works for the State afterwards, and ALL his pay goes to his victim to pay for lost wages, medical bills, etc, etc....and then his are worked off. He is then sent for rehabilitation, which may take a short time or a long time, depending on the person, at a "work camp". Each camp is run by the "inmates", and expected to supply for themselves with farming, and making goods to trade for things they would like. Tools, housing, hydro, etc is supplied to start them up.
Just a theory mind you. | |
|
| Dear God are we actually considering cost in the same sentance as the Death Penalty?
Posted: 11/17/2004 6:11:20 AM |
Yeah but what if you dont know the gun is loaded? What if you fully belived that (having removed the clip) the gun was unloaded? Most people dont understand that there may be a bullet in the chamber after the clip is removed... Do you have intent to kill then, or is it intent to scare? Is it just intent to show off?
well what if it was someone holding a gun to a 5 year olds head telling him/her to do sexual things? what if this wasn't his first time doing it? | |
|
| Dear God are we actually considering cost in the same sentance as the Death Penalty?
Posted: 11/17/2004 6:25:52 AM |
....except for a small example I was presented with. Drunk driver hits someone and takes off, leaving a wounded person there for 20 minutes before help gets there. Guy gets caught.
drunk drivers are a different story. if we were to find a way to keep drunk people from driving, we would eliminate SOOOOO many "murders" and car accidents. i think the justice department needs to find a way to handle that situation because it seems like more and more people are dying and being injured by drunk drivers. it's a travesty that something like this isn't being cracked down on as much as it should : / | |
|
Home
login