| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 7:47:43 AM | | I'm going to be completely honest and tell you i can't remember exactly where it was, there have been a few documentaries on it shown here in the UK, and i dont know which one it was in, I'll find out and let you know as I should be able to quote properly if im going to mention it! | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 8:14:43 AM | CHelle - Okay... Agreed... but our penal system is supposed to punish someone and then send them out after having paid their debt to society... I was thinking about three thoughts when I wrote that line... arrrrrrrrrrgh...
As for the whole death penalty as a deterrent to crime... I never believed that, except that it deters the individual involved totally. As I said, we are simply removing a cancer from our society.
As for us becoming murderers, I guess my hang up there is that at this point, the act of terminating the life of the cancer no longer fits my definition of murder. Murder to my mind is the willful act of ending the life of another sentient being, sentient in this case being defined as that ability to determine right from wrong. (Yeah, I am sure that I am going to hear it on that one). Entities by committing atrocious acts against humans such as Rape, Child Molestation, Murder have forfeited their claim to sentience and therefore their elimination cannot be considered murder.
Locking up an individual, is an insult to us as a society, that we can no better educate our children, our peoples that we must treat them as we would an animal. Very sad, but even at that, a cage is simply too good for the animals that we are discussing. Further, I prefer not to support him.. feed him, clothe him, shelter him, pay him... to my mind, we are merely rewarding him for his crime.
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 8:31:38 AM | Chelle - I have to agree with everything you say... sadly
I don't believe the whole truth ever comes out. I do have a solution for the prosecutor though... to bring them in line... Let him sign a contract that essentially puts his freedom on the line, that way he knows that if he convicts the wrong man, he will pay that price in the convicted stead. That should give them a ... impetus for making sure they do their job correctly.
And unfortunately, we in the US do not have a justice system, it is rather a system of laws... justice is mentioned rarely in our system... for a reason...
None the less, we find ourselves in agreement, I support it, however understand that it is flawed... but it is the best we have...
The alternative... find a remote island, that is habitable, but unihabited.. cordon it off, and put all death row inmates there... to live or not is dependent on them... in the meantime, we are not supporting them... what they have is based solely on what their abilities will allow. AFter conviction, they are dropped there, one weeks rations and one change of clothes... have a nice life...
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 8:48:00 AM | CHelle - Turn it over to hollywood, they will find a land mass somewhere, include cameras and have the utltimate reality show... the gov't wouldn't even need to foot the bill...
AS for the rest... yeah, they signed a contract... but let them put more than thier professional lives on the line... make it very personal for captial cases...
Egos have no place in a system of jurisprudence... Pride in doing a job well is one thing...
Ah well... if I had a magic wand.... ;-)
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 9:05:20 AM | ADR Chelle?
I was actually thinking of Running Man to an extent when I proposed such... but instead of the brutal way there... just make it like a closed set Survivor...
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 9:13:52 AM | How about Con Tiki????
:-D or Con volutions
or Con sternation?
he he he
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 10:05:37 AM | whosyourbadkitty: the cost to put someone to death a few years ago was up to 2.2 billion dollars. not nearly what it costs to keep them alive.
Probably more like 2.2 Million, not 'Billion' but might just have been a typo anyways.
Although we should never use costs as grounds or any contributing Factor as the Basis for the Execution of anyone and such Determination should be done by Reason of Justice alone, Appeal Processes by the Incarcerated over a 20 - 50 year time span would be far more costly than the Death Penalty.
Many sentenced to Multi-Terms study Law entirely for the Purpose of making Appeals with the underlying Motive to 'Get even' or 'I will make them feel sorry for having done this to me' in respect to the Justice System, Society or the Victims. Raising the Price Tag into the 8 Figure Range for such legal Motions over several Decades is not unheard of. | |
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ccav
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Joined: 11/19/2004
Msg: 183 | |
| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 10:22:52 AM | It is a question of Sovereignty.
If I build a barn, I have the right to burn it down.
God is Sovereign, and the creator. To kill another is
a usurpation of that authority. | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 10:37:40 AM | God is Sovereign, and the creator. To kill another is a usurpation of that authority.
Short of any Substantiation of such existance, Justice is carried out by Man & the Institutions he charged with that Responsibility.
If you offended your God, then you should appear before him, but if you broke the Laws of Man, you are answerable to him. And if you deliberately set out to kill a Man, then his Justice may bestow the same upon you. | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 10:49:39 AM | In support of the Death Penalty. Eye for an Eye.
We could keep costs down by hanging or just the simple one bullet to the head.
I guess that I think of some of those people of loved ones that have been murdered... How would I feel? I def. would want the S.B.'s to be dead. Same with sex offenders.
Jail is suppose to rehabilitate... If you research most prisons do not have any kind of rehabilitation. Do you time get out and hope that you learned. Most did not. | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 11:10:20 AM | That would be where the eye for an eye would come in.
In prison when sex offenders go in... they are not put with general population and if they are... they will usually end up dead. | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 11:30:28 AM | In this day... unlike it was ten to fifteen years ago.
There is so much more in forensic science and every day new test and procedures are coming out. That it is pretty hard not to eventually catch the killer, or rapist.
On the note of Innoscent people being put to death it is not as common today as it was then.
We are just now finding out about them, because of the forensic testing that is available to us now.
I don't know.... if someone touched my child...
Which would kill a part of them for the rest of their life. I know that I could not live with knowing that person is still taking a breath. Not that I could do anything about it. But once he does go to jail I would send letters letting the inmates know what he is in their for.
I don't think that we would have to worry about paying for him in jail.
Most sex offenders say themselves that "they can not be rehabilitated". | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 11:39:24 AM | | My child would need me here with them Not in Jail. | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 12:23:34 PM | Hiring a hit man is illegal, besides, I am sure you could find more than a few volunteers...
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 12:27:42 PM | You are right! That is one to many.
but just like in life you learn from your mistakes... You have to make the mistakes first! In order to learn from them.
Forensic Science is one way we have helped that from happening. DNA test. ammong the most used | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 1:37:17 PM | | It costs more to execute than it does to imprison. As a society most developed countries have stopped putting citizens to death in the name of the state. The United States is in the company of some pretty backward countries when it comes to capitol punishment. I believe that Bush had mentally retarded and children executed when he was govenor of Texas. | |
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ccav
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Joined: 11/19/2004
Msg: 192 | |
| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 1:52:13 PM | "Short of any Substantiation of such existance, Justice is carried out by Man & the Institutions he charged with that Responsibility."
But without the concept that God has all authority, and that authority is granted by him to ministers of his Justice, then it comes down to my opinion vs my neighbors, and finally degrades down to mob rule, "there's more of us who say you should be punished for your act, therefore you will be".
Therefore, the argument is thus, God has all authority and is the creator and has the only authority to end my life, or, We will usurp authority, and whoever can muster greater force will prevail.
I would prefer to submit myself to God's authority and live in peace with my neighbor. I would rather live with the chance I may be murdered, than give the State the power to execute at their discretion. Government has repeatedly proven itself to be the single most deadly force in existence, responsible for more deaths of their own citizenry than any single disease. | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 1:52:39 PM | Paddler - You know, I feel like I should be far more offended by that statement than I am...
I refuse to accept that I am backwards because I feel that we should put mad dogs to death, the things are sub human, and wicked, anything that would rape and sodomize a 7 years old child, or an adult for that matter needs be removed from society... I simply fail to understand why it is so expensive... a $700 9mm and a .25 bullet, if you want them to suffer first, fine, a $20 box of .22 short and a derringer at 40 ft... will take several round to end their time here...
That statement about Bush... I don't agree with the man on all things, but that is just wrong...
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 2:01:00 PM | The problem with the Death Penalty is that it takes too long to enforce. There is no earthly reason it should take 17 years to put someone to death. The cost of 1.2 million per death row inmate is what I've found to be the case. The cost of a lifetime of incarceration (say 40 years or more) is significantly higher. It is much cheaper to put them to death even when it takes 17 years to do so.
If you get the death penalty you should get 1 year for appeals and then your sentence is executed.
As for the types of crimes that receive the death penalty, I think they need to be limited to crimes resulting in deaths and severe habitual or overly heinous crimes.
As much as I despise child molesters this is one crime that prison renders justice for. Even among criminals a 'chomo' is usually dealt with quite harshly behind bars.
There is no reason why the families of those that have lost loved ones to violent criminals should be forced to keep that killer alive for the rest of his life. Many times the killer's life in prison is much better than it was in the real world. Why should killers have such luxuries? The only thing the killers lose is the ability to commit more crimes, they can pretty much have anything else they want in prison. Give the families closure, don't carry on the costs of keeping killers alive to the taxpayers and when they get the death penalty, execute them..
The death penalty is necessary and should be used in a much more effective way then it is right now. No way should they get to live when the take the lives of others...
For the record, I would have no problem sitting on a jury that might be asked to render the death penalty... | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 2:02:39 PM | Um CCAV?
there's more of us who say you should be punished for your act, therefore you will be
Is this not the basis for the majority of our rules and laws today? This is called democracy... in any given society, what the majority considers to be against the common good or the majority good will generally be legislated into law. Hence some of the more bizzare laws on incest and spitting on sidewalks on Sunday...
whoever can muster greater force will prevail
Um... Pick up any history book from any country. The US exists today because we made it so...
And as for the comment about government, I think all in all that this is unfair, Are you suggesting that we should have ignored Hitler? Turned the other cheek on Pearl Harbor (remember, we were trying very hard to stay OUT of that one, til the brought it to our door)? And do please remember that government is the ONLY reason you have the right to express your religious beliefs without the fear of someone breaking down your door.
Capital Punishment will never deter more than one individual at a time. Beyond that getting parents to raise responsible children into responsible adults is a better solution. But cancers need to be cut out and removed, lest they endanger the whole body. I see no reason to allow that cancer to live once removed from the body.
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 2:02:56 PM | | Why do people have to use religion in every decision? Hiding there own guilt? | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 2:04:44 PM | Thank you Chelle - respect and admiration is mutual...
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 2:05:21 PM | | I do not agree with killing other humans no matter how evil. I think we should have a life sentence with no hope of parol and no more than one appeal, if they are found guilty twice they can sit in jail, which I still feel is worse than death. I think if they where going to get off on technacalities they will do so the first time, and beside how many peopel sent to death don't appeal? I understand wanting to kill these people, but I just don't believe in killing any humans. | |
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| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 2:08:06 PM | Watchman, I find we are in concurrence... there needs be a limit to the time for appeal, also the type. Appeals based on legal loopholes as opposed to innocence or mitigating circumstance should be dismissed out of hand.
AS for molesters... Some will think me a REAL red neck if we start going there, I think I suggested a manner of death for them in another thread or possibly this one... though in reality this is one that I am unsure even needs go to trial. Family and friends should have resolved this issue more quickly...
~~Dragon Rider~~ | |
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ccav
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Joined: 11/19/2004
Msg: 200 | |
| Death Penalty
Posted: 12/13/2004 2:15:52 PM | "Is this not the basis for the majority of our rules and laws today? This is called democracy... in any given society, what the majority considers to be against the common good or the majority good will generally be legislated into law. Hence some of the more bizzare laws on incest and spitting on sidewalks on Sunday... "
That's precisely my point, in a democracy of 3, 2 can vote to hang the third and it is a "legal" act. However, "legal" and "lawful" aren't necessarily the same thing.
"Um... Pick up any history book from any country. The US exists today because we made it so..."
"Are you suggesting that we should have ignored Hitler? "
"But cancers need to be cut out and removed"
Again, precisely my point, where there is power, there will be abuse of that power. Life in prison removes the danger from the general society, without usurping an authority that I believe is divine, and allows for the correction of the miscarriage of Justice. It seems every week I read about another person released from prison due to DNA evidence proving them innocent of a rape. Our legal system will never be perfect, therefore we MUST provide for that imperfection. There's no way to go back and restore life to an executed prisoner once their innocence is discovered. We can however, restore liberty to that person and make amends for their wrongful conviction. | |
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